Are Irish pensioners the last remaining sacred cow?

therecklessone

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-faces-revolt-by-tds-if-the-oldage-pension-is-cut-2181340.html

TAOISEACH Brian Cowen faces a Dail revolt if he attempts to cut or means test the old-age pension.

Mr Cowen yesterday failed to give any assurance that the country's pensioners would be exempt from the forthcoming €3bn in Budget cutbacks.

And former PD TD Noel Grealish -- one of the independent TDs that the Government depends on for its slim voting majority -- last night said he will not support any Budget that includes cuts to the €5bn pension budget.

"I won't support any Budget that cuts the old age pension.

"It's bankers and the people who caused this who should be made to pay, not the elderly people in our society," Mr Grealish told the Irish Independent.

Isn't it ironic to see a former PD adopt the language of the trade union movement?

Meanwhile Noel O'Flynn, Michael Kennedy, John McGuinness and Chris Andrews have all expressed opposition to any adjustments to the pension bill, which currently stands at €5bn.

Mr McGuinness [speaking in relation to the proposed public sector union deal negotiated by Brian Cowen] in December 2009:

'The challenge is now up to him [the Taoiseach] in the content of this deal with the unions, and we'll see what leadership means.' Mr McGuinness, TD for Carlow-Kilkenny, said the trade union leadership was 'totally out of touch', and accused Ictu president David Begg David Begg of being 'completely disconnected from what's happening in the economy'.

Could it be that Mr McGuinness and his backbench colleagues have now disconnected themselves from what is happening in the economy?

All aspects of government spending should be up for review, even if that means unpalatable choices need to be made.

Cookie_Monster

In fairness the state pension here is already pathetic, I would certainly support pensioners if they decide to try and cut it more

changes

It would be either brave or foolish to cut the pensioners money.

murphaph

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

In fairness the state pension here is already pathetic, I would certainly support pensioners if they decide to try and cut it more

Pathetic compared to where? It's a damn sight higher than in the UK

It's even higher than the dole, even though pensioners generally have no accomodation costs or kids to worry about, and they get assistance with telephone bills, fuel, medical cards, free travel pass, etc. etc. etc.

Kristopherus

murphaph wrote: »

Pathetic compared to where? It's a damn sight higher than in the UK

It's even higher than the dole, even though pensioners generally have no accomodation costs or kids to worry about, and they get assistance with telephone bills, fuel, medical cards, free travel pass, etc. etc. etc.

+1. But I think it would be political suicide if the govt tampered in any way with it. Remember the grey vote is a far higher proportion than any other cohort of the voting population. I think enough tampering has been done by extending the qualifying age.

changes

Kristopherus wrote: »

+1. But I think it would be political suicide if the govt tampered in any way with it. Remember the grey vote is a far higher proportion than any other cohort of the voting population. I think enough tampering has been done by extending the qualifying age.

To play devils advocate, there are savings to be made there though. 5% might be fair, anymore would be a bit harsh.

As a gesture the government could make a bigger effort to improve home insulation for the pensioners first.

jimmycrackcorm

I think that means testing is valid enough to apply otherwise pensioners are some of the most vulnerable in society. What opportunities are there for an 80 year old if their state pension is cut?

rightwingdub

Pensioners get free travel, free tv licenses. A lot iof pensioners also don't have mortgages to pay and they have heavily subsidized gas and electricity bills, so yes I believe the OAP shoule be cut to around €190 per week over the next two budgets, pensioners aren't exactly ppor in this country.

Also how much did the OAP increase between the years 2000-2009.

Eliot Rosewater

The cost of living has gone down by 7%, right? So it's only fair the OAP goes down too. In terms of real income they are better off now than at the start of the recession, and in a time when thousands of people have lost their jobs that is totally unfair.

It's a pity our political system can't take the brave measures.

danbohan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

In fairness the state pension here is already pathetic, I would certainly support pensioners if they decide to try and cut it more

is it not wonderful that in this country , you might never work , your parents may never have worked , but we will give you at least e200 per week , free medical care , free schooling , free housing , and then at aged 66 we will give you a pension of e200+ per week which is just e25 less that someone who has worked from 18 and paid prsi all his life

now try explaining the equality in that to your man from mars

hiorta

What the pensioner has now - and it is not great - does not reflect the burdens that they had to endure in former years. At their time of Life any additional comforts should be given in gratitude, not begrudged.
It wasn't the average pensioner who caused your greed-fuelled situation of today.

Stand up and take your self diagnosed medicine and stop blaming others.

murphaph

hiorta wrote: »

What the pensioner has now - and it is not great - does not reflect the burdens that they had to endure in former years. At their time of Life any additional comforts should be given in gratitude, not begrudged.
It wasn't the average pensioner who caused your greed-fuelled situation of today.

Stand up and take your self diagnosed medicine and stop blaming others.

FFS man, read what you're posting! For the umteenth time NOBODY IS BLAMING ANYBODY for the mess we are in!

That does not change the fact that there's an annual 20bn hole in the national finances that the pensioners of the future will be paying for anyway. If the pensioners of today cut back a bit we can reduce that burden on the pensioners of tomorrow. Why do you equate that with begrudgery? or is that just a buzz word you heard? It is common sense....we are completely and utterly broke mate: the money is not there to pay out any social welfare payment at celtic tiger levels, no more than it is there to pay the PS their former salaries. It is totally unfair to exclude pensioners from cuts, at the expense of those on the dole or those in the public service tbh. Cuts are needed just about everywhere, and coupled with the FACT that the cost of living has been falling quite rapidly over the past 2 years, pensioners are now actually better off than before the recession started! Is that FAIR?

You talk about the "burdens endured by pensioners in years gone by" but what you actually mean is the work done by said pensioners, for which they were paid, just like the rest of us. Pensioners are just people who don't work anymore, not some special species.

There is room to cut the state pension at least in line with deflation, app. 7% no problem. That just returns pensioners to their spending power before the recession started. How do you think that is in the slightest bit unfair?

CoalBucket

OAPs the leeches on society. Over €200 a week, who do they think they are royalty. The cheek of them, they already have medical cards, fuel allowances, free travel etc.

We need to get our priorities right in this country.

We should not be spending money on the weak and vulnerable in society. We should be using the money to bail out the banks. We desperately need that money to make sure we can pay for the important pensions, like the ones for our TDs and Senators.

therecklessone

CoalBucket wrote: »

We need to get our priorities right in this country.

We should not be spending money on the weak and vulnerable in society.

I agree with the part in bold, I'd start by suggesting it is time we rid ourselves of the notion that being > 65 years of age makes one weak and vulnerable. Many are, others are not.

old_aussie

Maybe there are some millionaires claiming the pension.

Old age pensions should be means tested.

masalbeagdubh

I think means testing would be fair but like everything else in this country its hard to believe that it would be handled fairly. If you know someone high up in the civil service they will probably be able to ensure you get the full pension regardless. Its horrible when the govt have to float an idea to see if they will be allowed to go through with it. if the pensionaers lobby groups protest enough now they will forget about it and come back to it later on. I think the govt should get an actor to portray Michael Fingleton using his bus pass and show the footage on RTE. There would be no problem getting pension cuts pushed through then!

eoinbn

old_aussie wrote: »

Maybe there are some millionaires claiming the pension.

Old age pensions should be means tested.

I doubt they will means test it just for the mega rich, it will be for people on private pension that are on modest pensions- over €25k?

It seems very wrong that we can have criminal scum drawing €200 a week, when they aren't in €2000 a week government hotels, and at the same time we are telling 66+ year olds that might of worked for ~50 years that the state owes then nothing as they worked too hard for too long and put too much into their pension pot!

Scarab80

eoinbn wrote: »

I doubt they will means test it just for the mega rich, it will be for people on private pension that are on modest pensions- over €25k?

It seems very wrong that we can have criminal scum drawing €200 a week, when they aren't in €2000 a week government hotels, and at the same time we are telling 66+ year olds that might of worked for ~50 years that the state owes then nothing as they worked too hard for too long and put too much into their pension pot!

I had a client who applied for the old age pension in the same year that he sold a piece of land (mortgage free) for 21m, also applied for cheap ESB etc and of course was approved as it wasn't means tested.

Your argument that someone on a modest private pension would be hurt is not an argument against means testing, only an argument towards setting the level of means at which reductions or withdrawal of the state pension would occur.

The only argument against means testing can be that the cost of carrying out the testing would be in excess of the return in pensions withdrawn.

murphaph

CoalBucket wrote: »

OAPs the leeches on society. Over €200 a week, who do they think they are royalty. The cheek of them, they already have medical cards, fuel allowances, free travel etc.

We need to get our priorities right in this country.

We should not be spending money on the weak and vulnerable in society. We should be using the money to bail out the banks. We desperately need that money to make sure we can pay for the important pensions, like the ones for our TDs and Senators.

Typical hysterical response tbh.

Why does reducing the state pension IN LINE WITH DEFLATION (do you know what that is??) equate with a wish not to reduce TD's pensions? I'd slash political pensions a LOT more than I'd reduce the state pension (just in line with deflation!). I'd not only slash senatorial pensions, I'd abolish the senate if I had my way. Why do you confuse the two issues and assume that anyone that makes a reasoned call for a reduction (in line with deflation!) of the state pension has a wish to perpetuate the pensions of fat useless TDs? The two are clearly not mutually exclusive to me.

gleep

Scarab80 wrote: »

I had a client who applied for the old age pension in the same year that he sold a piece of land (mortgage free) for 21m, also applied for cheap ESB etc and of course was approved as it wasn't means tested.

Your argument that someone on a modest private pension would be hurt is not an argument against means testing, only an argument towards setting the level of means at which reductions or withdrawal of the state pension would occur.

The only argument against means testing can be that the cost of carrying out the testing would be in excess of the return in pensions withdrawn.

+1

I read in the Sunday BP that the FF shower are toying with the idea of setting the means testing barrier at people with earnings of between €50-€100k. At first I thought "fair enough".
But when you think about it, some of these people have been working 50+ years throughout the bad old days to get to a position where they have this income. All the while they paid taxes and PRSI. IMO, their pensions should be left alone, or modestly cut.
On the other hand, some haven't worked a day in their life or have been drawing dole and doing nixers on the side. If pensions have to be cut, it should be this group and people who have incomes in excess of €200k or assests in excess of €500k who should be cut.

Thoushaltnot

The problem with that is that, not to put too fine a point on it, pensioners don't know how long they've got left. They could die in a year or live to 115. That fine big house they live in/money in the bank, might just get used up pretty quickly. They were brought up to save for a rainey day but there's no telling how long this one might last. And the ones I know don't want to be a burden.

And during that time, what if their quality of life declines? They may need many adjustments to their home or even live in help. The state doesn't make it easy for them, especially if their mental facilities are on the wane.

Not to mention the vultures that target them - from the beggar at the door, distracting them, while the mates break in the back or the scammer or even the unscrupulous family member that moves in "to help" but tricks them to sign over the deeds to the house (I know of 2 cases).

Any means test for the elderly would have to take account of factors like that. It's not like means testing those who can start again from scratch or emigrate or even marry for money!

And also, when they were working and rearing families, they had to take a lot more crap from their scarce jobs and there wasn't the social welfare protection there is now. Women were expected to quit their jobs when they got married and there was a "marriage bar" in the civil service.

Leave the elderly alone and take the drinking/drugs money from the troublemakers. Anyone who gets a conviction while unemployed and "under the influence" can afford a SW reduction comparable to 10 pints of Dutch Gold and a bottle of Buckfast or whatever it was when they committed the crime.

My 2 cents.

Scarab80

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

The problem with that is that, not to put too fine a point on it, pensioners don't know how long they've got left. They could die in a year or live to 115. That fine big house they live in/money in the bank, might just get used up pretty quickly. They were brought up to save for a rainey day but there's no telling how long this one might last. And the ones I know don't want to be a burden.

And during that time, what if their quality of life declines? They may need many adjustments to their home or even live in help. The state doesn't make it easy for them, especially if their mental facilities are on the wane.

Not to mention the vultures that target them - from the beggar at the door, distracting them, while the mates break in the back or the scammer or even the unscrupulous family member that moves in "to help" but tricks them to sign over the deeds to the house (I know of 2 cases).

Any means test for the elderly would have to take account of factors like that. It's not like means testing those who can start again from scratch or emigrate or even marry for money!

And also, when they were working and rearing families, they had to take a lot more crap from their scarce jobs and there wasn't the social welfare protection there is now. Women were expected to quit their jobs when they got married and there was a "marriage bar" in the civil service.

Leave the elderly alone and take the drinking/drugs money from the troublemakers. Anyone who gets a conviction while unemployed and "under the influence" can afford a SW reduction comparable to 10 pints of Dutch Gold and a bottle of Buckfast or whatever it was when they committed the crime.

My 2 cents.

Most pensioners are not drawing down money in their bank accounts, they are in receipt of annuities payable until death. If a pensioner has a large sum of cash on hand they can use this to purchase an annuity to guarantee them an income until death.

Everytime someone talks about means testing pensioners they think of a little old lady living in a council house, these people would not be affected by means testing. Think of Tony O'Reilly or indeed Sean Fitzpatrick in a few years time and many others who have less means than them but more than enough that they do not need to rely on social welfare.

RichieO

Why not put all pensioners in the workhouse or make them sweep the streets, or chain them up in a cellar and feed them on bread and water or better yet, bring in enforced euthanasia?

Just because some-one has worked for 50 yrs, paid their taxes, pension and PRSI etc, etc, doesn't mean they are actually entitled to it, does it?

Maybe we should have two sets of rules, one for the ordinary people and one for the b*stards who are milking the system dry? Wouldn't that be great?

Hmmm, wait though, can we trust the ones who make the rules, not to bend, break or circumvent them? and then tell all their buddies how to?
and then tip them off when it finally hit the fan, funny but this sounds sort of vaguely familiar, I wonder why...

murphaph

RichieO wrote: »

Why not put all pensioners in the workhouse or make them sweep the streets, or chain them up in a cellar and feed them on bread and water or better yet, bring in enforced euthanasia?

Just because some-one has worked for 50 yrs, paid their taxes, pension and PRSI etc, etc, doesn't mean they are actually entitled to it, does it?

Maybe we should have two sets of rules, one for the ordinary people and one for the b*stards who are milking the system dry? Wouldn't that be great?

Hmmm, wait though, can we trust the ones who make the rules, not to bend, break or circumvent them? and then tell all their buddies how to?
and then tip them off when it finally hit the fan, funny but this sounds sort of vaguely familiar, I wonder why...

More hysterical tripe, sorry but that's all it is, not reasoned debate at all.

therecklessone

RichieO wrote: »

Just because some-one has worked for 50 yrs, paid their taxes, pension and PRSI etc, etc, doesn't mean they are actually entitled to it, does it?

Lets not get hysterical.

I don't automatically agree with the argument advanced by others that the pension should be cut in line with inflation, but how about we assess needs and adjust accordingly. At it's most extreme, should Bill Cullen be entitled to free travel because of his age?

irishh_bob

while irish people are unbeleviabley sentimental chumps when it comes to certain proffesions ( nurses ) and certain social groups ( pensioners ) , thier are very practical reasons why cutting the extrordinarily generous wellfare rates to pensioners is a huge no no to so many of the populace , thier is a big culture ( especially in rural ireland ) of inherritance in this country , keeping an eye on what aunty molly or uncle jimmy owns and what you might get when they kick the bucket is a common theme , ive said it before , during the ( liveline fueled ) street protests against the medical card cuts two years ago , a large section of the crowd were people who were a generation away from the pension and all its perks , sons and daughters of the elderly , no doubt concerned that thier inherritance might be spent on pills and doctor bills for mammy and daddy

CoalBucket

murphaph wrote: »

Typical hysterical response tbh.

Why does reducing the state pension IN LINE WITH DEFLATION (do you know what that is??) equate with a wish not to reduce TD's pensions? I'd slash political pensions a LOT more than I'd reduce the state pension (just in line with deflation!). I'd not only slash senatorial pensions, I'd abolish the senate if I had my way. Why do you confuse the two issues and assume that anyone that makes a reasoned call for a reduction (in line with deflation!) of the state pension has a wish to perpetuate the pensions of fat useless TDs? The two are clearly not mutually exclusive to me.

Not hysteria at all.

Why is it wrong to ask for the people of the country to be looked after before the banks.

Why is it hysteria to suggest that instead of pouring money into Anglo to maintain the wealth of shareholders we should maintain the modest level of payments to social welfare and pension recipients.

Lets demand a cut to TDs salaries and pensions.

Lets abolish property tax reliefs still in place.

Lets alter the pension reliefs for the people who have a high pension and still claiming the state pension.

People acknowledge that cuts need to be made. It's the cuts that the government make a priority is a problem. The first cuts they decide to make are cuts to social welfare, special needs assistants and old age pensions, the last of which was rowed back on due to public pressure.

You are correct. There is no confusion of issues, the issues are not mutually exclusive. Lets prioritise. We as a people should insist that the vulnerable in society should be the last resort in paycuts not the first FF port of call.

P.S. Yes I do know what deflation is and no point in my discussion demonstrated that I had no knowledge of deflation.

AARRRRGH

Very sad to be reading the posts on this thread.
Those pensioners have paid their dues to society.
They put us all through school and a hell of a lot more. They worked far harder than anyone posting here too. They had to put up with terrible conditions.
Its thanks to them that we all have nice cushy lives now where we can just begrudge everyone anything the ever earned.
Leave them alone and pay some more tax voluntarily if you are so worried about the government coffers.

murphaph

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Very sad to be reading the posts on this thread.
Those pensioners have paid their dues to society.

Not all of them of course, it is perfectly possible to be collecting a non contributory state pension having contributed ZILCH in tax to the Irish State: you just have to be an Irish citizen and pass the means test. You could have worked tax free in Dubai for your whole life and squandered every penny on the Gee Gees and you'd still pick up that non contributory pension

AARRRRGH wrote: »

They put us all through school and a hell of a lot more. They worked far harder than anyone posting here too. They had to put up with terrible conditions.

Again, not all of them. My mother is a pensioner. She has worked in offices her whole life, never in a coal mine or cotton mill.

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Its thanks to them that we all have nice cushy lives now where we can just begrudge everyone anything the ever earned.

Do the 430k unemployed have "nice cushy lives"? The same 430k who had their dole cut at the last budget remember. The same 430k who likely have MUCH higher outgoings than an average pensioner.

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Leave them alone and pay some more tax voluntarily if you are so worried about the government coffers.

Tell you what, seeing as you're so keen for this aspect of spending not to be touched, why don't you pay more tax and let me pay the same

I think we need to get beyond the sentimental junk to discuss this rationally. The cost of living has fallen quite substantially, yet we have people on here who want to maintain the pensions of the celtic tiger years. Strange. I am in agreement with irish_bob: this has a LOT more to do with middle aged people protecting their inheritance than protecting the elderly!

rasper

FF don't have the balls to go after the wealthy pensioners ,look at the medical card fiasco , its the ordinary work that can't afford to go the doctor or dentist in this country

RichieO

We are told the cost of living has gone down, and therefore we are better off. Well my weekly food bill has not gone down at all but the cost of petrol has gone up, so has calor gas and heating oil, in fact the only price drops I see are the things I can't afford anyway, like luxury goods, that were too dear to start with...
So will some kind person please tell me exactly how the cost of living has gone down...

It is so blatantly obvious that the majority of posters are not trying to survive on a state pension, but are experts on the subject, with no first hand knowledge.

murphaph

RichieO wrote: »

We are told the cost of living has gone down, and therefore we are better off. Well my weekly food bill has not gone down at all but the cost of petrol has gone up, so has calor gas and heating oil, in fact the only price drops I see are the things I can't afford anyway, like luxury goods, that were too dear to start with...
So will some kind person please tell me exactly how the cost of living has gone down...

It is so blatantly obvious that the majority of posters are not trying to survive on a state pension, but are experts on the subject, with no first hand knowledge.

Do you?

irishh_bob

thier are two pensioners on my road ( rural ireland ) and neither have ever worked a day in thier lives , one drives a 09 toyota , the other a 09 fiesta , so much for the stereotype of the shivering granny rocking back and forth in front of a tuf fire , reading irelands own

hiorta

""Lets demand a cut to TDs salaries and pensions""


Shouldn't these highly paid and dubiously competent folk have already reduced their overblown 'take' at this time of crisis?

halkar

If I leave the country, never come back and get pension here at the age of 60, can I get my 40 years of PRSI back please ?

I am seriously thinking this.:D

If they thouch the OAPs I will be in line with them walking to Dáil . There are a lot more can be done before OAPs.

Scarab80

RichieO wrote: »

We are told the cost of living has gone down, and therefore we are better off. Well my weekly food bill has not gone down at all but the cost of petrol has gone up, so has calor gas and heating oil, in fact the only price drops I see are the things I can't afford anyway, like luxury goods, that were too dear to start with...
So will some kind person please tell me exactly how the cost of living has gone down...

Ask and you shall receive....

CPI inflation maxed in September 2008, Base(100.0) is mid December 2007

Food and Non-Alcoholic Beverages: Sept08(109.2) - Apr10(100.2) = Deflation(-9.0)
Alcoholic Beverages, Tobacco: Sept08(106.2) - Apr10(110.2) = Inflation(4.0)
Clothing and Footwear: Sept08(90.7) - Apr10(73.5) = Deflation(-17.2)
Housing, Water, Electricity, Gas and Other Fuels: Sept08(126.8) - Apr10(92.4) = Deflation(-34.4)
Furnishings, Household Equipment and Routine Maintenance of the House: Sept08(96.5) - Apr10(90.2) = Deflation(-6.3)
Health: Sept08(109.1) - Apr10(111.8) = Inflation(2.7)
Transport: Sept08(108.8) - Apr10(106.6) = Deflation(-2.2)
Communication: Sept08(102.2) - Apr10(101.7) = Deflation(-0.5)
Recreation and Culture: Sept08(102.0) - Apr10(100.0) = Deflation(-2.0)
Education: Sept08(107.2) - Apr10(122.0) = Inflation(14.8)
Restaurants and Hotels: Sept08(107.1) - Apr10(103.6) = Delfation(-3.5)
Miscellaneous Goods and Services: Sept08(102.4) - Apr10(110.8) = Inflation(8.4)
All Items: Sept08(108.4) - Apr10(100.7) = Deflation(-7.7)

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/consumpriceindex.htm

Scarab80

hiorta wrote: »

Shouldn't these highly paid and dubiously competent folk have already reduced their overblown 'take' at this time of crisis?

From the Budget Speech

The salary of the Taoiseach will be reduced by 20 per cent. This reduction, together with the pension levy means the Taoiseach’s salary will be cut by close to 30 per cent in total.


Ministers and Secretaries General of Government Departments will take a pay cut of 15 per cent: an overall cut of close to 25 per cent when the pension levy is taken into account.

Chamberlin

I think it's crazy that it is even being dscussed, pensioners should not be touched when we still pay lazy ass people almost 200eur in jobseekers allowance! when your on the dole it should be just enough to live on, you shouldn't have the luxury of shopping with your mates or going out at the weekend, those are luxuries reserved for those of us who are working for a living! This is where the cuts need to be made, not in the pension fund. Pensioners are the most vulnerable and generally don't have the option to work, so what they get from the pension is it. People on the dole however do generally have the option to work (I am aware this is not true of everyone on the dole) and can go out and earn more if they are not satisfied with what the dole offers!

therecklessone

Chamberlin wrote: »

I think it's crazy that it is even being dscussed, pensioners should not be touched when we still pay lazy ass people almost 200eur in jobseekers allowance! when your on the dole it should be just enough to live on, you shouldn't have the luxury of shopping with your mates or going out at the weekend, those are luxuries reserved for those of us who are working for a living! This is where the cuts need to be made, not in the pension fund. Pensioners are the most vulnerable and generally don't have the option to work, so what they get from the pension is it. People on the dole however do generally have the option to work (I am aware this is not true of everyone on the dole) and can go out and earn more if they are not satisfied with what the dole offers!

Those are mighty broad brush strokes you're using there...

Some pensioners are vulnerable.

Some people receiving JSA are lazy.

CoalBucket

Scarab80 wrote: »

From the Budget Speech"

The salary of the Taoiseach will be reduced by 20 per cent. This reduction, together with the pension levy means the Taoiseach’s salary will be cut by close to 30 per cent in total.

Ministers and Secretaries General of Government Departments will take a pay cut of 15 per cent: an overall cut of close to 25 per cent when the pension levy is taken into account. "

The Taoiseach, Ministers and poor TD's have taken reductions. Lets have a look at the sacrafices they have made.

After the reductions

The Taoiseachs salary has been reduced to €228,466.
The average salary in the Dail is now €112,000
Fifty TDs only get the basic Dail salary of €92,672.
The rest are either ministers, holders of positions in the Oireachtas or entitled to long-service bonus payments.

This is before the "expenses"

Whilst cuts have been made, even the basic salary in the Dail is a multiple of the average Industrial wage and over 10 times the annual OAP.

What a sacrafice they have made !!

Oh ya here is the link for the right wingers

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/td-salaries-slashed-by-euro17000-2042039.html

Einhard

Some of the reactions here illustrate just how difficult it will ever be to run Ireland in a fiscally prudent manner. Someone reaises the possibility of making a small cut in line with deflation to the pension, and people suddenly conjure images of euthansia and work camps. The simple fact is that the elderly in Ireland are looked after very well. They receive one of the highest state pensions in the world, as well as an array of state benefits that would make a Greek blush- free travel, free tv licence, medical cards, subsidised electricity, gas, telephone. No one's denying that the old dears deserve this, but the simple reality is that we have to get the deficit down from 14% of GDP to 3% in four years, and that involves spending cuts of at least €3 billion anually. The cuts simply have to be made, and its fiscal madness to start ruling them out in particular areas before they can even be discussed. A lot of Irish people prefer to be ruled by sentiment rather than reality, with their hearts rather than their heads, and that's why I'm so pessimistic about Ireland ever learning the lessons of the past few years. We'll continue to vote for those who slosh the most cash about in the short term, without bothering to think about the long term consequences.

Einhard

CoalBucket wrote: »

The Taoiseach, Ministers and poor TD's have taken reductions. Lets have a look at the sacrafices they have made.

After the reductions

The Taoiseachs salary has been reduced to €228,466.
The average salary in the Dail is now €112,000
Fifty TDs only get the basic Dail salary of €92,672.
The rest are either ministers, holders of positions in the Oireachtas or entitled to long-service bonus payments.

This is before the "expenses"

Whilst cuts have been made, even the basic salary in the Dail is a multiple of the average Industrial wage and over 10 times the annual OAP.

What a sacrafice they have made !!

Oh ya here is the link for the right wingers

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/td-salaries-slashed-by-euro17000-2042039.html

CoalBucket, I can agree with your sentiment, but it doesn't negate the fact that we have to make massive savings in expenditure. And even were we to tax every TD and every banker and every developer at 100% of their earnings, it would be but a tiny, insignificant drop in the ocean compared to the €20 billion we're borrowing for this year alone. And that fingure, incidentally, is exclusive of the funds needed for the bailouts etc. Since you're so against pension cuts, could you let us know where you propose we raised the necessary funds?

Scarab80

CoalBucket wrote: »

The Taoiseach, Ministers and poor TD's have taken reductions. Lets have a look at the sacrafices they have made.

After the reductions

The Taoiseachs salary has been reduced to €228,466.
The average salary in the Dail is now €112,000
Fifty TDs only get the basic Dail salary of €92,672.
The rest are either ministers, holders of positions in the Oireachtas or entitled to long-service bonus payments.

This is before the "expenses"

Whilst cuts have been made, even the basic salary in the Dail is a multiple of the average Industrial wage and over 10 times the annual OAP.

What a sacrafice they have made !!

Oh ya here is the link for the right wingers

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/td-salaries-slashed-by-euro17000-2042039.html

Stop the presses! Some people get paid more than other people!

If only we could come up with some kind of system where everyone is paid the same .... wait, wasn't that tried somewhere before?

CoalBucket

Scarab80 wrote: »

Stop the presses! Some people get paid more than other people!

If only we could come up with some kind of system where everyone is paid the same .... wait, wasn't that tried somewhere before?

You were the one who was proclaiming the governments valiant efforts by reducing their salaries.

Show me where I have asked for everybodys salaries to be the same.

If you want to have an informed discussion then lets have it.

You are more than willing to throw up some quotation but do not like when you have the facts presented to you.

Einhard

CoalBucket wrote: »

You are more than willing to throw up some quotation but do not like when you have the facts presented to you.

The simple, unassailable fact is that we cannot continue to spend money that we do not have. How do you propose we reduce our massive deficits if every proposed cut, whatever its merits, is met with howls of outrage and cries of victimisation?

CoalBucket

Einhard wrote: »

CoalBucket, I can agree with your sentiment, but it doesn't negate the fact that we have to make massive savings in expenditure. And even were we to tax every TD and every banker and every developer at 100% of their earnings, it would be but a tiny, insignificant drop in the ocean compared to the €20 billion we're borrowing for this year alone. And that fingure, incidentally, is exclusive of the funds needed for the bailouts etc. Since you're so against pension cuts, could you let us know where you propose we raised the necessary funds?

The funds could be raised in a number of areas.

The total cost of pensions is €5bn. That figure is based on 2009 expenditure. According to the government they are expecting a 6 % reduction in this figure in 2010.
http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Estimates%20Book%202010.pdf

There are other ways of raising the €20 bn. Not being the Minister for Finance I have not set out a budget However funds could be raised with the following

Cut to TDs salaries and pensions. A limit of € 100,000 set on salaries in the Oireachtas.

Abolish of all property reliefs.

Reduce the relief on rental incomes of commercial and residential investment properties.

An end to Irish Tax exiles as recommended by the commission on Taxation.

A new Tax rate for individuals earning over 100,000.

Closing in the loop holes that allow Tax Avoidance.

An increase in Inheritance tax for inheritance over 300,000.

Reduce public service spending by reforming the public service

A reduction in Capital spending.

As I have said previously people acknowledge that cuts need to be made. It's the cuts that the government make a priority is a problem. The first cuts they decide to make are cuts to social welfare, special needs assistants and old age pensions.

I would like to see the government make a genuine effort to cut the wealthy before they cut the vulnerable in society. With FF in government I don't think we will ever see it.

Scarab80

CoalBucket wrote: »

You were the one who was proclaiming the governments valiant efforts by reducing their salaries.

Show me where I have asked for everybodys salaries to be the same.

If you want to have an informed discussion then lets have it.

You are more than willing to throw up some quotation but do not like when you have the facts presented to you.

I would love to have an informed discussion, please re read the post i was responding to...

hiorta wrote: »

Shouldn't these highly paid and dubiously competent folk have already reduced their overblown 'take' at this time of crisis?

From the Budget Speech

The salary of the Taoiseach will be reduced by 20 per cent. This reduction, together with the pension levy means the Taoiseach’s salary will be cut by close to 30 per cent in total.

Ministers and Secretaries General of Government Departments will take a pay cut of 15 per cent: an overall cut of close to 25 per cent when the pension levy is taken into account.

I made absolutely no comment on how adequate or otherwise government salaries were, that's a seperate discussion (for the record i would be happy to pay those amounts for competent politicians and generally believe that if you pay well you will get quality, this follow through does not seem to be happening in irish politics, although there are some more intelligent young politicans now but still too many cute hoors and too many teachers!)

The point i was addressing is the liveline misconception that all the pay cuts are focused on the lower paid when in fact the opposite is the case. Because the loss of a bonus scheme for 600 out of several thousand higher paid public servants was included as a paycut does not change this fact.

CoalBucket

This was the post you replied to

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoalBucket
The Taoiseach, Ministers and poor TD's have taken reductions. Lets have a look at the sacrafices they have made.

After the reductions

The Taoiseachs salary has been reduced to €228,466.
The average salary in the Dail is now €112,000
Fifty TDs only get the basic Dail salary of €92,672.
The rest are either ministers, holders of positions in the Oireachtas or entitled to long-service bonus payments.

This is before the "expenses"

Whilst cuts have been made, even the basic salary in the Dail is a multiple of the average Industrial wage and over 10 times the annual OAP.

What a sacrafice they have made !!

Oh ya here is the link for the right wingers

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...0-2042039.html

Stop the presses! Some people get paid more than other people!

If only we could come up with some kind of system where everyone is paid the same .... wait, wasn't that tried somewhere before?

Scarab80

Please re-read the thread.

ocokev

Oaps had head shops shut down within weeks of interferring, they had the hunky dorey adds stripped from bill boards within hours, the government wouldnt last a week against these activists.

Einhard

CoalBucket wrote: »

Cut to TDs salaries and pensions. A limit of € 100,000 set on salaries in the Oireachtas.

Would save a few million at most.

Abolish of all property reliefs.

As far as I'm aware, most of these have already been phased out. Anyway, in this economy, we're not going to raise much from abolishing reliefs on construction. Another few million saved.

Reduce the relief on rental incomes of commercial and residential investment properties.

I don't have figures for this, but I can't see it saving anything beyond a few dozen million.

An end to Irish Tax exiles as recommended by the commission on Taxation.

Again, even were we to tax all our exiles at 100%, we wouldn't raise nearly enough to cover our current expenditures

A new Tax rate for individuals earning over 100,000.

How much do you propose exactly? People earning over tha amount already pay a significant proportion of their wages in tax. There's also such a thing as diminishing returns. Even were this to be implemented, the amount raised would be insufficent to make anything but a small dent in the current deficit. It might also have the opposite effect to that intended, and depress consumer spending and thus negatively impact on tax returns.

Closing in the loop holes that allow Tax Avoidance.

Mostly closed. Again, saves a pittance.

An increase in Inheritance tax for inheritance over 300,000.

To how much? Again, saves a pittance. Also, you can't assume that someone inheriting a property over €300k is in any way wealthy. I think it would be most unfortunate if people had to sell the family home in order to pay an inheritance tax.

Reduce public service spending by reforming the public service

With the Croke Park agreement, any savings gained through reform have to be used to reverse cuts in wages. The scope for real savings is therefore quite limited.

A reduction in Capital spending.

We can only afford a limited cut in such spending before short term savings begin to impact on potential growth in the future. Even if we shave a billion a year in cancelled projects and reduced costs, that only represents 5% of our current deficit.

The first cuts they decide to make are cuts to social welfare, special needs assistants and old age pensions.

But education and social welfare make up a significant proportion of current expenditure. It would be impossible to make the necessary savings were we to ringfence these programmes from cuts.

I would like to see the government make a genuine effort to cut the wealthy before they cut the vulnerable in society. With FF in government I don't think we will ever see it.

What exactly do you mean by "cut the wealthy"? Cut their numbers?? The wealthy are already quite heavily taxed in this country. They pay the vast proportion of the taxes raised here. There's really only so much you can squeeze from any particular group of people.