Pulling Guard.

EnjoyChoke

Thought I'd start a thread on this after some comments on a previous thread.
My current take on it is as a secondary tool in BJJ/NoGi comps (bit suicidal in MMA!) to be used in the event that the primary one, takedown, can't be executed.
So whats your opinion on pulling guard? Are you a Guard player, mainly top game guy or both?

cowzerp

in BJJ i would do most my work for guard but still would never pull guard unless i knew i was going to get thrown and lose points, personally i think it sucks when a player comes straight out and pulls guard, a bit chickeny imo!

At least try get a takedown!!

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

personally i think it sucks when a player comes straight out and pulls guard, a bit chickeny imo!

At least try get a takedown!!

Would you give a pass if the opponent was a high level Judoka or Wrestler?

da-bres

chickeny??? are cobrinha, mendes chickens??? i think no gi comps are defo a lot harder for bjj players, the grips and control when pulling into the guard are not there. i consider myself a guard player, i am working hard in wrestling, but at the moment i am confident that i can sweep off my back much easier than taking an opponent down, why should i get sprawled on, thrown or countered if i can get top position or a submission by sitting down??

its not the 'macho' approach but if someone is weak at takedowns why take the risk of being dumped by an athleticly superior fighter??

Doug Cartel

da-bres wrote: »

at the moment i am confident that i can sweep off my back much easier than taking an opponent down, why should i get sprawled on, thrown or countered if i can get top position or a submission by sitting down??

its not the 'macho' approach but if someone is weak at takedowns why take the risk of being dumped by an athleticly superior fighter??

If the guy sees your guard pull coming a mile off, and he knows what he's doing, there's a good chance he'll block it and have a knee through by the time your back hits the ground.

That said, learning to throw effectively and consistently is really difficult, and at low level BJJ competition (the only level I have any experience of) it's just not worth your time as it's all about the ground work.

I would guess that at higher levels it becomes more important as people look for any little advantage they can get. Thing is that it's something you only get good at by trying over and over again. If you always go straight to pulling guard, you won't get good at throwing.

EnjoyChoke

Doug Cartel wrote: »

If the guy sees your guard pull coming a mile off, and he knows what he's doing, there's a good chance he'll block it and have a knee through by the time your back hits the ground.

Pretty much zero chance of this happening if your a decent guard player. Agree that generally you should be hunting for the takedown but da-bres raises a very good point about tactics. If you know someone has far superior takedowns either because of skill or size, pulling guard and sweeping is a legit option.
At higher levels you see a real mix, guys who look for the takedown, guard pullers, guys who pull half guard every time, even players who turtle up and work from there.
Top is king, end of, but if you pull a guard in order to sweep quickly you end up on top.

Doug Cartel

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Pretty much zero chance of this happening if your a decent guard player.

Bull****. Things go wrong all the time. If you're a one trick pony, and your opponent knows it, the chances of things going wrong for you increase dramatically.

Agree that generally you should be hunting for the takedown but da-bres raises a very good point about tactics. If you know someone has far superior takedowns either because of skill or size, pulling guard and sweeping is a legit option.

I acknowledged this in my last post. It's a legitimate tactic, but it's not going to do you favours in the long run.

Top is king, end of, but if you pull a guard in order to sweep quickly you end up on top.

This is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs, but if you unbalance someone, pull guard and sweep immediately, you've just done a sacrifice throw.

EnjoyChoke

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Bull****. Things go wrong all the time. If you're a one trick pony, and your opponent knows it, the chances of things going wrong for you increase dramatically..

Who said anything about being a one trick pony?
It's very easy to pull guard, very easy, thats why players do it. The scenario you described "there's a good chance he'll block it and have a knee through by the time your back hits the ground." is extremely unlikely to happen to a decent guard player

I acknowledged this in my last post..

No, you didn't.
You said it "at low level BJJ competition (the only level I have any experience of) it's just not worth your time (throwing) as it's all about the ground work."
Your contradicting yourself.

This is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs, but if you unbalance someone, pull guard and sweep immediately, you've just done a sacrifice throw.

No, you haven't.
You aren't splitting hairs, you're just mistaken.
Pulling guard, then sweeping, however quickly, is not a sacrifice throw. It just isn't.

Doug Cartel

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

No, you didn't.
You said it "at low level BJJ competition (the only level I have any experience of) it's just not worth your time (throwing) as it's all about the ground work."

I said learning to throw consistently and effectively wasn't worth your time. Not that throwing in general wasn't worth it. If your throwing game isn't the best, then you're going to end up pulling guard at some time and at the BJJ competitions I've been to, that works out pretty well for people.

You aren't splitting hairs, you're just mistaken.
Pulling guard, then sweeping, however quickly, is not a sacrifice throw. It just isn't.

Guard pull -> butterfly sweep.

BobbyOLeary

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Thought I'd start a thread on this after some comments on a previous thread.
My current take on it is as a secondary tool in BJJ/NoGi comps (bit suicidal in MMA!) to be used in the event that the primary one, takedown, can't be executed.
So whats your opinion on pulling guard? Are you a Guard player, mainly top game guy or both?

I'm primarily a guard player, or at least I used to be. I'm trying to move towards a stronger, more aggressive top game now.

As for takedowns/guard pulling I'm definitely a guard puller. Most BJJ clubs, actually all BJJ clubs I've trained in tend to focus more on groundwork than clinch. It's not necessarily a bad thing but it's led me to be far stronger on the ground than standing up. I realise it's a particular weakness of mine and I'm making some inroads to fix it.

I think choosing to pull guard is fine, having it as your only option is not. It's not chickeny at all, if you go into a BJJ match to prove how manly you are you're going to lose. In competition you play your highest percentage game. If that means pulling guard and getting a sneaky guillotine then that's it. Similarly if your strongest move is a quick double leg to side control then go for that.

Barry.Oglesby

I pull guard almost exclusively. I now understand this makes me a chicken. Thank you thread.

Some people might not be all that confident with their ability to throw and are much more confident to settle and sweep and rack up their points that way. BJJ is a sport and like all sports it requires tactics that give you the best chance of winning. Whether or not someone thinks this is cowardly or not when they look at you doesn't matter. This is the sport. What matters is that you play the game that gives you the best chance of winning. If you want to watch people try to get top position 100% of the time, watch wrestling. The guard is one of the things that makes BJJ, well, BJJ.

Sid_Justice

guard is a fundamental and integral part of BJJ, messing about with grips standing isn't.

pablohoney87

Do you pull guard because of your lack of confidence in your wrestling bobby or because you believe your bottom game is dangerous enough to do that. Because you always gave me a lotta trouble whenever you got top postition . I used to only wanna be in guard but since ive started developing a top game i find it much better to have some good wrestling or judo to get to the top postition.
Still nothing more satisfying than an armbar from guard tho.

NG-DOC

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I acknowledged this in my last post. It's a legitimate tactic, but it's not going to do you favours in the long run.

you obviously know little to nothing about high level sport bjj if you think pulling guard isn't going to favour you in the long run.

people who are dismissive of guard pulling should either learn to pass guard or as was previously suggested go watch/train wrestling/judo.

Sid_Justice

This before this thread kicks off and goes mental in an ideological disagreement way I'd say:

People have personal tastes and preferences.
Some people live for the guard/half guard
Some people think it's more important to be good at getting the starting top position than others

I'm not a high level BJJ guy by any stretch of the imagination but my view on BJJ is that you should practice it as if you're in a MMA fight. Pulling guard should only be done if you were getting dominated on your feet and couldn't get your own take down. IT's better to pull guard than get slammed into side control.

Barry.Oglesby

http://www.grappling-core.com/videos/_Rafael_Mendes_vs_Rubens_Cobrinha_Charles_Mundial?vid=10002124

Barry.Oglesby

And also http://www.grappling-core.com/videos/_Rafael_Mendes_vs_Carlos_Lemos_Jr_Mundials_2009?vid=10002121&tid=113 The cowardly action takes place at 1 minute in.

Doug Cartel

NG-DOC wrote: »

you obviously know little to nothing about high level sport bjj

Admittedly, this is very true.

Clive

Pulling guard is a legitimate tactic in BJJ competition - you can't slam the guy and there are no negative points for it. I try not to do it myself unless I'm feeling particularly lazy that day, since it's not what I want my jiu jitsu to be.

I do think that it's one of many reasons why submission wrestling competitions should not use BJJ rules, but at the end of the day it's up to the organisers to use whichever rules they see fit.

EnjoyChoke

I'd be about 50/50 at the moment, takedown vs pulling guard. Trying to improve that percentage towards takedowns but I don't see a time where pulling guard won't be a tactic for me, particularly when I'm facing someone with superior standup skills. (I wonder does this make me some kind of weird chicken/man hybrid?)

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Would you give a pass if the opponent was a high level Judoka or Wrestler?

I would pull gurad if that was my only option so probably!

Clive wrote: »

Pulling guard is a legitimate tactic in BJJ competition - you can't slam the guy and there are no negative points for it. I try not to do it myself unless I'm feeling particularly lazy that day, since it's not what I want my jiu jitsu to be.

Agree with Clive, it is legitimate but not part of BJJ that i like or want as part of my game.



To clarify my overly harsh "chickeny" statement! and maybe re word it!
Please dont cry barry! its only the internet.

Personally i feel while there is points to gain from a takedown and a very dominant position where you can finish the fight then i think it should be sought after! i like to work from guard and understand some people favour the position but considering a takedown can be enough to win you the fight if nothing else scores then its a great start to the match for the player.

Pulling guard is perfectly legal but i would be happy if it was considered a penalty and the guard puller gave up the takedown points as it would make for a more offensive game.

nomdeboardie

A bit off topic, but when I first saw this phrase in the judo thread I thought “What?? Trying to take down a policeman by yanking on his uniform as if it were a judogi? Trying to seduce a copper with your slick “moves”?” :eek: I used to do judo a long time ago, but I don’t think we had a name for it then!

Burnt

nomdeboardie wrote: »

A bit off topic, but when I first saw this phrase in the judo thread I thought “What?? Trying to take down a policeman by yanking on his uniform as if it were a judogi? Trying to seduce a copper with your slick “moves”?” :eek: I used to do judo a long time ago, but I don’t think we had a name for it then!

There is no name for it in judo; it's not a recognised technique, the closest would be hikikomi geashi (pull guard sweep instant combo) or a failed tomoe nage (captain kirk throw). In all likelihood it would earn you a warning/shido (minor penalty).

(Translations in parentheses)

Doug Cartel

Burnt wrote: »

There is no name for it in judo; it's not a recognised technique, the closest would be hikikomi geashi (pull guard sweep instant combo) or a failed tomoe nage (captain kirk throw). In all likelihood it would earn you a warning/shido (minor penalty).

There's a book on judoinfo.com - Modern Judo vol. 2 by Charles Yerkow, 3d Ed. (c) 1947 - that calls it the "kidney-scissor jump", but there doesn't seem to be an official Japanese name for it. Slamming guard is "Daki-age".

Burnt

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There's a book on judoinfo.com - Modern Judo vol. 2 by Charles Yerkow, 3d Ed. (c) 1947 - that calls it the "kidney-scissor jump", but there doesn't seem to be an official Japanese name for it. Slamming guard is "Daki-age".

I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't exist, simply that it's not part of the official
or even common nomenclature, in the same way full guard lacks an official
name.

Judo naming convention is a bit strange, naming is restricted to principles,
everything else is a variation. If it doesn't demonstrate a principle it lacks
a name.

Burnt

With respect to Pulling Guard

In general using a strategy; which is permissible within the rules of a
sport, that gives you the greatest advantage is perfectly acceptable.
Naturally as an athlete and competitor you want to win. Playing solely
to the rules will win you the medals.

However care must be taken; rules maybe and generally are imperfect,
and subject to change. Avoiding the main principles or raison d'etre of a
sport/art/style can distort it in the extreme, moving it away from what
made it successful to begin with. See the the current bull**** that has
occurred in judo.

Keep as many flavours of the sport as possible. The rules should be simple
and aimed to the protection of the participant. The strategies should be
aggressive, positive and play to your strengths.

This way evolution and results will pick out what works and what doesn't
and not the judgement calls and technicalities, ensuring that the sport
remains strong and vibrant, and will keeps everyone honest.

For Judo guys or those who like to throw/take down into side control an
interesting throw to consider against guarding pulling is Kuchiki D/Taoshi;
now sadly banned from our own competitive environment. I have used
and seen it use successfully against tomoe nage, it takes practice and a
good sense of anticipation; but it would be a substantial shock for a "one
trick pony" as some one previous described to suddenly find themselves
in side control.

Doug Cartel

Burnt wrote: »

I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't exist, simply that it's not part of the official
or even common nomenclature, in the same way full guard lacks an official
name.

Yeah, I was just pointing out the only non-bjj reference I know of it, which is an old, obscure book that hardly anyone would have heard of unless they spend way too much time on the internet. Also I think it's funny that there is no name for guard, but there is one for slamming guard.

NG-DOC

cowzerp wrote: »

Personally i feel while there is points to gain from a takedown and a very dominant position where you can finish the fight then i think it should be sought after! i like to work from guard and understand some people favour the position but considering a takedown can be enough to win you the fight if nothing else scores then its a great start to the match for the player.

The same argument can be made that a sweep can be enough to win you the match if nothing else scores, so therefore pulling guard and sweeping should be equally sought after.

NG-DOC

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

http://www.grappling-core.com/videos/_Rafael_Mendes_vs_Rubens_Cobrinha_Charles_Mundial?vid=10002124

What idiots, i hope they know this guard pulling business won't help them in the long run.

I mean Cobrinha will probably never win 4 straight world and pan american titles with that kind of carry on... oh wait.

Well at least Rafa Mendes might not win the ADCC and World Pro Cup two years in a row at age 21... oh

da-bres

Doug Cartel wrote: »

If the guy sees your guard pull coming a mile off, and he knows what he's doing, there's a good chance he'll block it and have a knee through by the time your back hits the ground.

have u ever pulled guard?? or seen a decent guard player?:rolleyes:

Burnt

Perhaps if you aren't Cobrinha or haven't won the ADCC, it would be better
to take a more well rounded approach to things?

Pulling guard isn't a magic bullet, you'll have to be pretty damn sharp if you
never get caught or anticipated. Likewise if you never have a takedown stuffed.

Doug Cartel

da-bres wrote: »

have u ever pulled guard??

Yes. I've done a lot of things in my life I'm not proud of, and pulling guard is one of them.

or seen a decent guard player?:rolleyes:

I've not only seen a few, I've been swept, triangled, guillotined and arm-barred by them too. Believe it or not, I used to do zhu zhitstu, and I used to train in a judo place where we had a lot of BJJ cross trainers.

NG-DOC

Burnt wrote: »

Perhaps if you aren't Cobrinha or haven't won the ADCC, it would be better
to take a more well rounded approach to things?

why would that be?

Burnt

Because generally guys are like Cobrinah etc... are phenomenal athletes
who possess phenotypes above and beyond what Joe Soap could dream
off. They would likely excel in any closely related athletic activity given
similar lengths of time and dedication to training.

Trying to imitate them for Joe Soap will likely not prove to come anywhere
close to their success, because they lack the phenotype and other factors
Thus it would be seem to be best for Joe try out as much as possible and
see what works for Joe.

Generally omnivores survive best...

NG-DOC

Burnt wrote: »

Because generally guys are like Cobrinah etc... are phenomenal athletes
who possess phenotypes above and beyond what Joe Soap could dream
off. They would likely excel in any closely related athletic activity given
similar lengths of time and dedication to training.

Trying to imitate them for Joe Soap will likely not prove to come anywhere
close to their success, because they lack the phenotype and other characteristics.
Thus it would be seem to be best for Joe try out as much as possible and
see what works for Joe.

Generally omnivores survive best...

i don't disagree for a minute that cobrinha and mendes are phenomenal athletes or that they would excel in whatever they do.

however, i am not suggesting trying to imitate them move for move. more so that if your guard is your strong point, then pull guard. if that's what enables you to win competitions then why wouldn't that be something to emulate?

i don't see why having takedowns is "more well rounded". surely the most well rounded phenotypical carnivorial menstral dinosaurial athleticon is the one who can beat all comers no matter what their opponents choice of tactics will be.

Burnt

NG-DOC wrote: »

however, i am not suggesting trying to imitate them move for move. more so that if your guard is your strong point, then pull guard. if that's what enables you to win competitions then why wouldn't that be something to emulate?

If it lets you win all competitions go for it. When it doesn't what's plan B?

NG-DOC wrote: »

i don't see why having takedowns is "more well rounded". surely the most well rounded phenotypical carnivorial menstral dinosaurial athleticon is the one who can beat all comers no matter what their opponents choice of tactics will be.

By definition having take downs versus not having take downs is more
well rounded. All other things being equal, naturally.


If I give you a sledgehammer, you could break down most doors, but
won't it be easier if you just had the right key?

NG-DOC

Burnt wrote: »

If it lets you win all competitions go for it. When it doesn't what's plan B?




By definition having take downs versus not having take downs is more
well rounded. All other things being equal, naturally.


If I give you a sledgehammer, you could break down most doors, but
won't it be easier if you just had the right key?

I don't really understand what you mean by "when it doesn't what's plan b?". there are so many variables in that i wouldn't know where to start.

In a game where you don't have to have takedowns, because of the rules that allow guard pulling, it's not a necessary skill to have. in fact it will almost inevitably work against you. if you are known for having good takedowns, people will pull guard on you. so even though you are "more well rounded" it is a skill that can be made entirely void. i only see it as being well rounded if takedowns were an integral part of the game, which they aren't.

cool sledgehammer saying though...

NeilswordsJudo

I just want to add a few points from the last thread about cross training and training in a Judo class and pulling the Guard. This is purely from a judo perspective and judo environment.

In Judo if someone pulls the guard, i.e. jumps up and wraps their legs around you pulling you down on top of them to allow them to work from the ground, All the Judoka has to do is place one hand on the attacking players leg (allowed under the new rule, as the attack was initiated by the player pulling the guard), and drive them onto their back, The player pulling guard wont twist or turn as that’s where they want to be. This creates an Ippon throw as you have driving them to the ground onto their back with force and direction. An Ippon throw being the fight is over. The reason for placing the hand on the leg is to show you intended to drive them back and it’s an attack or counter.

This is why it’s not using in Judo, also why Judoka don’t really like this move as it’s over as soon as the player does it.

Again this is only from a judo point of view and in the judo environment and is more of a response to the pervious thread that is now closed. So if you are cross training in a Judo Club just be aware of that.

EnjoyChoke

The fact is that takedowns aren't taken into account, at all, in BJJ gradings or assessement of someones BJJ game.
Also while they are undoubtedly an advantage in competition, you'll only get 2 points for a perfect throw (compared with an Ippon win in Judo). The BJJ game only gets going when it hits the ground, how it gets there is not of primary importance.

Marty Mc

i pull guard all the time

EnjoyChoke

Marty Mc wrote: »

i pull guard all the time

I think I detect a touch of sarcasm here...

Shane Fitz

"In Judo if someone pulls the guard, i.e. jumps up and wraps their legs around you pulling you down on top of them to allow them to work from the ground, All the Judoka has to do is place one hand on the attacking players leg (allowed under the new rule, as the attack was initiated by the player pulling the guard), and drive them onto their back, The player pulling guard wont twist or turn as that’s where they want to be. This creates an Ippon throw as you have driving them to the ground onto their back with force and direction. An Ippon throw being the fight is over. The reason for placing the hand on the leg is to show you intended to drive them back and it’s an attack or counter. "


In reply to Neil, this particular technique is used in BJJ, and is scored as a takedown, and as such it deters sloppy guard pulling. However if someone is good at it, and can execute it well, then why not go for it.. just be aware that referees can, and do, score against you if your opponent uses the above technique.

Marty Mc

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

I think I detect a touch of sarcasm here...

not at all..well maybe

butt scooting and guard pulling are my new 'go to' moves.

colinlaird000

4
3
2
-1
1

mount
____________

back grab

Passing the guard
Take downs
____________
sweeps
____________
Knee on the belly


penalties


advantages

guard pull. No points. While I concede that It is a valid and effective strategy for people, surely a takedown and a knee on belly is stragically more advantageous, given that both fighters are equal in attributes. Most top level fighters who pull guard do it for a specific reason, mostly that they know their opponents, and concede that they would rather be in a "safe" guard than risk being under their opponents side control.

If i get arm barred from guard.. i would think i'd need to improve your base and posture. Which i do

discuss..

colinlaird000

dammit boards. ruin my nice copied table would you?

da-bres

colinlaird000 wrote: »

guard pull. No points. While I concede that It is a valid and effective strategy for people, surely a takedown and a knee on belly is stragically more advantageous, given that both fighters are equal in attributes. Most top level fighters who pull guard do it for a specific reason, mostly that they know their opponents, and concede that they would rather be in a "safe" guard than risk being under their opponents side control.

If i get arm barred from guard.. i would think i'd need to improve your base and posture. Which i do

discuss..

Fighter 'A' has very little knowledge in takedowns, fighter 'B' is a judo player.. what would you do if you were fighter A??

Theres no points for getting sprawled on either i might add, so why should my strategy include it??

As well as that pulling guard is very easily done, its the best form of bringing the fight to the mat in a Jiu jitsu setting.

EnjoyChoke

da-bres wrote: »

Fighter 'A' has very little knowledge in takedowns, fighter 'B' is a judo player.. what would you do if you were fighter A??

Theres no points for getting sprawled on either i might add, so why should my strategy include it??

As well as that pulling guard is very easily done, its the best form of bringing the fight to the mat in a Jiu jitsu setting.

It's the best form of bringing the fight to the mat only if your unable or very unlikely to do so by a scoring takedown (and your guard kicks ass! )

Burnt

Right I'll have another bite at this.

So take downs aren't a requirement for BJJ gradings fair enough.

Your tactics for dealing with some one who has got take down capabillity
is to automatically jump gaurd. You have eliminated >50% for you opening
gambits.

This really isn't a huge disavantage to me as; it's predictable, you lack
take downs, and secondly nearly everyone lacks take downs because
they aren't seen as stategically advantageous, so I am well versed in
dealing with gaurd.

An analogy is like being a southpaw in boxing, you see orthodox all the time.

Conversely, as I've already stated, you've given up most of your opening
possiblities. As you have avoided developing take downs your unfamiliar
with their mechanics, and thus how to effectively avoid and counter them
and how to avoid injury. As such you must pull gaurd before I get my take
down. Your immediately under pressure. This will be the case competing
against judoka, samboists, wrestlers and bjj guys who work take downs.

An analogy would be like being Man Utd, you know Rooney is a threat so
you man mark him with two guys, no loss to me if Rooney score well and
good if he doesn't well i've taken one of you guys out of the game.

On top of this, a well excuted throw, will get you the 2points for a take
down, automatically pass gaurd into side control and disorientate the
other guy.

I'm not saying pulling gaurd is wrong or bad tactically, but it is possibly
foolish and lazy strategically not to develope some take down capability.

Is there an equivalent of Judo's uke/tori defender/attacker concept in BJJ?

Furious-Dave

Burnt wrote: »

On top of this, a well excuted throw, will get you the 2points for a take
down, automatically pass gaurd into side control and disorientate the
other guy.

Not to mention that a well executed throw or takedown can lead straight into a submission, e.g. O Soto Gari or O Goshi into an arm bar.

da-bres

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Not to mention that a well executed throw or takedown can lead straight into a submission, e.g. O Soto Gari or O Goshi into an arm bar.

it can also be argued that pulling guard quickly/correctly can lead to triangles, omoplatas, armbars.. pulling de la riva can lead to back control etc

i wanna hear siochans views on this... i hear by call foxy!!!

Furious-Dave

da-bres wrote: »

it can also be argued that pulling guard quickly/correctly can lead to triangles, omoplatas, armbars.. pulling de la riva can lead to back control etc

Of course it can. But surely it's better to be able to do it all rather than just pulling guard?