Its a Woman's World

Fukuyama

Show me one area in which women are discriminated against today? I'm not anti-women or anything, but I've read a few articles recently and thought about it and they definitly have it much better than men in almost every aspect...

Here's a few:

1. It's socially acceptable to hit men, bu not women. As a result MORE men suffer domestic abuse... its just less reported as it's not seen as domestic abuse as he's a man.
2. In the army and police force, they want to do the same job and have been allowed to and encouraged to for decades. But the entrance requirements are far lower for women even though they'll have to go through the same physical exertions as men. Why? They're also aloud to wear ear rings etc...
3. Get Maternity leave ... I think men get a day?
4. Numerous shows and tv adverts of women hitting men or med scared of their spouse (Everybody Loves raymond etc...) and nobody bats an eyelid. Like that one where the nurse slaps the doctor for cheating on her with 'Carla the blond'. That wouldnt have made it to air if the man had hit the woman IMO.

Here's more:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055849345

What do the women on Boards think of this? I'm not 'attacking' you guys on this... just wondering if its occured to you or if its all that noticeable.

Could anyone give me a REAL example where women have it tougher than men nowadays?

Herb Powell

women still get payed less than men
how many women do you see in top managerial positions?

Giselle

I don't disagree with the general gist of your post OP, but two things.

Its NEVER socially acceptable for anyone of either gender to hit anyone else unless its a self-defence situation. I do think women are forgive more easily for it though.

And as far as I know men don't get pregnant and give birth so maternity leave is a bit different to parental leave, which should be given to both parents.

Some maternity leave is necessary to overcome the physical aspects of motherhood, and that shouldn't be touched.

But perhaps you're right and the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. Hopefully we'll find the right balance at some point.

RacoonQueen

Men get three days paternity leave and while I do think they should get more, women are always going to get longer they have to recover from carrying the little brat around for 9 months and bond with the thing and all that.

The army and police force thing I agree with you on, in training in the army say - they go and run 10 miles with a backpack on and the women don't have to carry as much as the men which is rather stupid. If you're in the trenches you'd like to KNOW that the woman on your left is just as capable as the man on your right, can you be sure of that if she's not as strong/fit as him?

davyjose

Herb Powell wrote: »

women still get payed less than men
how many women do you see in top managerial positions?

In fairness, I got three days Paternity leave last year, my sister in law got nine months Maternity leave. I'm not complaining about it, but who deserves the higher salary for 2009?

Nothing against women, but this is a pretty big stumbling block with regards to matching men, in the workplace.

SoupyNorman

Dean0088 wrote: »

Could anyone give me a REAL example where women have it tougher than men nowadays?

Lactation.

Fukuyama

Herb Powell wrote: »

women still get payed less than men
how many women do you see in top managerial positions?

Quite a lot, as of late (last ten years). I'm sure I'll get a back lash here but the reason many women don't make it as high up the corperate ladder is because they decided to take a few years off if they have kids.

Other than that, I wouldnt say the corperate scale is tipped to much in men's direction. And its changing rapidly.

Fukuyama

Giselle wrote: »

I don't disagree with the general gist of your post OP, but two things.

Its NEVER socially acceptable for anyone of either gender to hit anyone else unless its a self-defence situation. I do think women are forgive more easily for it though.

And as far as I know men don't get pregnant and give birth so maternity leave is a bit different to parental leave, which should be given to both parents.

Some maternity leave is necessary to overcome the physical aspects of motherhood, and that shouldn't be touched.

But perhaps you're right and the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. Hopefully we'll find the right balance at some point.

It's never ACCEPTABLE for a woman to hit a man in basic terms. But come on, it's perfectly socially acceptable to the point where its shown on adverts in the day time for young girls to see. nice, huh?

If a woman hits a man its would barley be blinked at by the police, people who see it etc... Her friends wouldnt really care either.

If a man hits a woman then theres a good chance all or most of the following will happen:

Arrested and charged.
Name disgraced.
His mates will look down on him.
Society brands him as a piece of domestic abuse scum.

all rightly so.... just wish it was the same for women.



I know women should get more, they are the natural care givers of babies and thats something that just ... IS. We dont have boobs... But surely a man should get more than a couple of days to spend and bond with his new child.. nay, FAMILY.

IvySlayer

Mothers get more rights over children than fathers.

In divorce settlements, the woman is favoured if there's children involved.

National Womens Council, but no Mens one.

Women only places are allowed, but men only are not.

All strange men are potential paedophiles.

Women get cheaper insurance.

He Drives, She Dies campaign being allowed to air.

Are the highlights I can think off, now the female posters will create a thread showing how it's a Mans world :pac:

Fukuyama

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Men get three days paternity leave and while I do think they should get more, women are always going to get longer they have to recover from carrying the little brat around for 9 months and bond with the thing and all that.

The army and police force thing I agree with you on, in training in the army say - they go and run 10 miles with a backpack on and the women don't have to carry as much as the men which is rather stupid. If you're in the trenches you'd like to KNOW that the woman on your left is just as capable as the man on your right, can you be sure of that if she's not as strong/fit as him?

I was going to join the Reserve before the recruitment ban and I was shocked by the differences. Men have to run longer and carry more. Do way more pushups and sit ups and be of better physical condition overall.

Now lets say (however unlikely) that the army is called upon. Going by this standard the women, through the fault of the system, will not nessecarily be able to preform. Why not have the same tests from the get go?

Fukuyama

IvySlayer wrote: »

Mothers get more rights over children than fathers.

In divorce settlements, the woman is favoured if there's children involved.

National Womens Council, but no Mens one.

Women only places are allowed, but men only are not.

All strange men are potential paedophiles.

Women get cheaper insurance.

He Drives, She Dies campaign being allowed to air.

Are the highlights I can think off, now the female posters will create a thread showing how it's a Mans world :pac:

Everything youve said is spot on.

The whole "Pedophile until proven Heterosexual' really gets me. If a man were to try become a child carer etc... he'd be instantly assumed of being a rapist or "dirty old man".

As for the courts, they're a joke. Both the family and criminal courts. If a man is getting divorced, he can kiss his house goodbye and look forward to seeing his kids once a week whilst still being forced to pay 50% of their raising costs.

CHD

meh, I don't have to be pregnant like ever so as I said, meh.

PK2008

Quit complaining OP, you sound like a woman

IvySlayer

Dean0088 wrote: »

I was going to join the Reserve before the recruitment ban and I was shocked by the differences. Men have to run longer and carry more. Do way more pushups and sit ups and be of better physical condition overall.

Now lets say (however unlikely) that the army is called upon. Going by this standard the women, through the fault of the system, will not nessecarily be able to preform. Why not have the same tests from the get go?

Men are faster and stronger than women on average though. Of course we are expected to run an extra mile etc etc

Fukuyama

IvySlayer wrote: »

Men are faster and stronger than women on average though. Of course we are expected to run an extra mile etc etc

Yeah, but not all men are faster and stronger than all women. The standards should be identical between the two sexes for practical purposes.

Say they're assaulting a mountain position or something military blah blah like that. Should all the women be allowed to stop halfway and take a break because they're women?

I dont see the logic in your thinking...

davyjose

IvySlayer wrote: »

Men are faster and stronger than women on average though. Of course we are expected to run an extra mile etc etc

If what a woman can do meets the standard the army they are looking for, then why does a man have to exceed that? Either women are getting an easy ride, or men are getting ridden.

I can't stand it when men dredge up the few examples of where women have it easier and then say it isn't fair. You had to use the same point twice, what does that tell you? This has to be a joke, right? You really feel hard done by as a man because it's not yet as taboo for a woman to hit a man, women get more maternity leave (sorry, do the men have to carry the child for 9 months, give birth to it and breastfeed it, I didn't realise) and the requirements to join the police are lower and they're allowed to wear earrings?

IvySlayer

[quote=[Deleted User];65883284]I can't stand it when men dredge up the few examples of where women have it easier and then say it isn't fair. You had to use the same point twice, what does that tell you? This has to be a joke, right? You really feel hard done by as a man because it's not yet as taboo for a woman to hit a man, women get more maternity leave (sorry, do the men have to carry the child for 9 months, give birth to it and breastfeed it, I didn't realise) and the requirements to join the police are lower and they're allowed to wear earrings?[/QUOTE]

Please respond to some of my points

And about the police/army thing. It's not sexist, the average fit male should be able to x amount of miles and do y amount of push ups. Womens are lower because their don't have as big muscles, on average.

Not sexist, just nature!

Bottle_of_Smoke

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Men get three days paternity leave and while I do think they should get more, women are always going to get longer they have to recover from carrying the little brat around for 9 months and bond with the thing and all that.

The thing is women are physically able to return to work quite soon after birth. The father can bond with the child if a woman is working. They even have breastpumps for the milk(and strap-on boobs for fathers!)As long as paternity leave remains unequal to maternity, there will never be comprehensive equality between men and women in the workplace.

The army and police force thing I agree with you on, in training in the army say - they go and run 10 miles with a backpack on and the women don't have to carry as much as the men which is rather stupid. If you're in the trenches you'd like to KNOW that the woman on your left is just as capable as the man on your right, can you be sure of that if she's not as strong/fit as him?

Police force I agree. Army's more complicated.

derfderf

Dean0088 wrote: »

Yeah, but not all men are faster and stronger than all women. The standards should be identical between the two sexes for practical purposes.

Say they're assaulting a mountain position or something military blah blah like that. Should all the women be allowed to stop halfway and take a break because they're women?

I dont see the logic in your thinking...

nail on the head. It's ok for sports where women wouldn't be able to compete fairly with men but in a warzone they don't pit the men against the men and the women against the women.
I've been wondering about this lately, if world war 3 kicked off and conscription was introduced would women be drafted too?

Fukuyama

[quote=[Deleted User];65883284]I can't stand it when men dredge up the few examples of where women have it easier and then say it isn't fair. You had to use the same point twice, what does that tell you? This has to be a joke, right? You really feel hard done by as a man because it's not yet as taboo for a woman to hit a man, women get more maternity leave (sorry, do the men have to carry the child for 9 months, give birth to it and breastfeed it, I didn't realise) and the requirements to join the police are lower and they're allowed to wear earrings?[/QUOTE]

*sigh*

Okay... I'll start again and spell this out nice and clear.

1. Go back to my original post. See tat link? Click on it. In there you will find hundreds (yes, hundreds, not just the couple of EXAMPLES I used in my post) of areas where men are socially and legally descriminated against.

2. I fully believe that women deserve some extra things they get such as maternity leave because we're still human. But wouldn't it be better if the man got a few extra days etc... why not, is my question.

3. Yes, I do feel hard done by as a man because its acceptable for a woman to hit a man. Wouldn't women feel a little hard done by if it was okay for a man to hit them repeatedly on a high street accross the face while nobody stepped in?

Your comments seem to have sexist undertones and if they were the other way around an infraction would not be deemed unjust. But alas, this is the society we live in.

Oh, also, you'll notice that I've decided to use the return address on that ever so patronizing tone you kindly delivered to me.

Take care now,
Dean.

Fukuyama

IvySlayer wrote: »

Please respond to some of my points

And about the police/army thing. It's not sexist, the average fit male should be able to x amount of miles and do y amount of push ups. Womens are lower because their don't have as big muscles, on average.

Not sexist, just nature!

I did respond.

As for the army/garda thing, I'm aware that nature dictates that men are stronger than women. But shouldnt any women who gets into the army have to pass the same requirements as men in the physical aspects. Its a demanding job whereby allowances for nature could one day get a person killed.

They're both expected to do the same job, and as such should both have the same entrance requirements.

And I'm sure I could find many more examples of where women are discriminated against. Your post has sexist undertones. You really do feel hard done by, don't you? You think women deserve a bit of extra maternity leave because 'we're still human?' How big of you!

Women carry a child for nine months, give birth to it (sometimes it's a long, difficult and complicated birth which takes months to recover from), breastfeed it, sometimes suffer from post-birth issues like post-partum depression. Men have sex with the woman and that's their physical role done. And you're whining that it's not fair for men?

As for women hitting men, look at the figures. They are dwarfed by the cases of men abusing women. Yes, it is not yet as taboo for a woman to hit a man, and I agree that that isn't fair, but you are many, many times more likely to be a victim of domestic violence as a woman than a man.

As for the police/army, they are encouraging women to join to make up for the previous thousands of centuries where they could not. Women generally have different roles to men, not many women fight on the front line. I assume you've never heard about the disgraceful sexual harassment that goes on in the army? Go and read a few articles and then come back and tell me men have it tough.

So, in what other fields to women have it easier? Or do you think the fact that women have lower requirements in the army negates the fact they still get paid less across the board?

IvySlayer

Dean0088 wrote: »

I did respond.

As for the army/garda thing, I'm aware that nature dictates that men are stronger than women. But shouldnt any women who gets into the army have to pass the same requirements as men in the physical aspects. Its a demanding job whereby allowances for nature could one day get a person killed.

They're both expected to do the same job, and as such should both have the same entrance requirements.

The 'respond' part was just for Kenzie Screeching Tongs.

Physically men are built stronger than women. What I'm saying is a fit male for the army is expected to do AT LEAST 5 miles and 100 push ups

A fit female is expected to AT LEAST 3 miles and 75 push ups, it's not sexist. The average woman just cannot keep up with the average man on a physical scale.

biko

Dean0088 wrote: »

*sigh*

Okay... I'll start again and spell this out nice and clear.

Take care now,
Dean.

Are you trying to be patronising?

If you want to have a proper discussion going you probably shouldn't attempt to diminish other poster's suggestions.

IvySlayer

IvySlayer wrote: »

The 'respond' part was just for Kenzie Screeching Tongs.

Physically men are built stronger than women. What I'm saying is a fit male for the army is expected to do AT LEAST 5 miles and 100 push ups

A fit female is expected to at least 3 miles and 75 push ups, it's not sexist. The average woman just cannot keep up with the average man on a physical scale.

I agree. Obviously the average women cannot be expected to do the same as the average man. But there are different roles in the army. As I said, how many women are fighting on the front line? And how many women are even in the army? It's still a tiny percentage overall. It just gets my back up that women were banned from most jobs for centuries, and now in a *few* professions, they're being given a bit of a break to be able to get into it, and men are moaning that it isn't fair. It's not as if all jobs are now hiring women only to make up for the discrimination in the past, is it?

IvySlayer

Izzy: Of course women need maternity leave. No man is saying they don't need it. What some blokes want is some Paternal leave which is not just 3 ****ing days.

The law is so favoured towards women, do you think that is fair? Women get automatic rights to children whereas men don't. Explain that.

I do agree that women paid less in the same positions is sexist, but how would you feel that the father of your children could take your kids away, divorce you, get your house as his and then deny access to them?

Gary4279

Women hit men more often, figures simply show that men hit women more because most men wouldn't go to the police as it would be pointless or shameful.

About the army thing. If I should ever be conscripted (I wont i'm just saying for an example), and i'm lying there with half a leg pumping blood, i know i want a 15 stone man who can carry me to safety rather than a 9 stone woman who couldn't.

Oh yeah, I was at a football match recently, st.pats v linfield. there was riot cops everywhere as trouble was expected, i seen one riot cop saying to her superior that she was going back to the van because it was about to turn ugly! :O I hope her wages we docked. So while she waited in the van the male cops had to control crowds.

Women make me want to turn gay.....

Fukuyama

[quote=[Deleted User];65883391]And I'm sure I could find many more examples of where women are discriminated against. Your post has sexist undertones. You really do feel hard done by, don't you?

Women carry a child for nine months, give birth to it (sometimes it's a long, difficult and complicated birth which takes months to recover from), breastfeed it, sometimes suffer from post-birth issues like post-partum depression. Men have sex with the woman and that's their physical role done. And you're whining that it's not fair for men?

As for women hitting men, look at the figures. They are dwarfed by the cases of men abusing women. Yes, it is not yet as taboo for a woman to hit a man, and I agree that that isn't fair, but you are many, many times more likely to be a victim of domestic violence as a woman than a man.

As for the police/army, they are encouraging women to join to make up for the previous thousands of centuries where they could not. Women generally have different roles to men, not many women fight on the front line. I assume you've never heard about the disgraceful sexual harassment that goes on in the army? Go and read a few articles and then come back and tell me men have it tough.

So, in what other fields to women have it easier? Or do you think the fact that women have lower requirements in the army negates the fact they still get paid less across the board?[/QUOTE]

In your next reply, please point out to me where my posts have sexist (as in the dictionary meaning, not a man raising an issue about mens rights) undertones. Thanks

Oh okay, I see you're taking the route of "we gave birth to the child, we have more rights". Your tone in asking me do I feel hard done by n this clearly shows that you feel that men, in the year 2010, are still just a walking sperm bank. So, as a man, I wouldnt want to bond with a child that my wife has just given birth to. I'm not saying women have it easy during pregnancy, it's a million miles from easy. But do them men just do on holidays for nine months with the lads or sit on the couch watching football?

"Look at the figures"? Clearly I have as I outlines in my previous post. A higher percentage of males than women have been hit by a spouse. Read my original linke. Citing actual numers is irrelivent. If 100 men hit 100 women, at least half of them would be reported to the police.

If 100 women hit 100 men, a handful might get reported. The facts on which your argument is based is flawed in every traditional way. They're also very outdated.

They're not encouraging women to join to make up for the centuries befor hand. Thats silly. It;s just equality. You have still yet to answer my question as to why its okay for a women, who has to do THE SAME JOB, has easier entrance requirments? Why is that okay on a practical level, especially in a demanding role as in the army?

You say many women dont fight on the front line??? well... neither do many men. The percentages are roughly the same although more women do join the medical corps .... although they're still expected to be at the front most of the time.

Many women have served bravely on peacekeeping alongside their male comrades. Your argument has no basis other than 'men are physically stronger' which is irrelevant. Women are natural care givers, so should men be given easier entrance requirements to be a child carer?

Please done "assume" as you've put it, in a debate. Everyones heared about sexual harassment. Yet you decide to confine it to the army. Nice. What about in female dominated roles? OR would you prefer to whitewash over that ?

You ask what other fields do women have it 'easier'. Well, I wouldnt nessecarilty say easier, just a hell of a lot more facilitated than men. The job of a female soldier is just as tough as that of a male soldier. The job of a female doctor is just as tough as that of a male doctore. The job of a female builder is just as tough as that of a male builder. The job of a female nurse is just as tough as that of a male nurse. But in facilitation and employemtn law, who gets it better? Women. And its in black print in law if you want look it up.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Sexism is needed, the PC brigade are a bunch of twats. If my house goes on fire, I don't expect a woman of average build to carry me out of that building.

In combat, women have proved to be efficient and effective combatants, but that area is dominantly male, and should stay that way too.

If we look at the unemployed we see that men take up the majority.

I think society is leaning towards women these days.

IvySlayer

IvySlayer wrote: »

Izzy: Of course women need maternity leave. No man is saying they don't need it. What some blokes want is some Paternal leave which is not just 3 ****ing days.

The law is so favoured towards women, do you think that is fair? Women get automatic rights to children whereas men don't. Explain that.

I do agree that women paid less in the same positions is sexist, but how would you feel that the father of your children could take your kids away, divorce you, get your house as his and then deny access to them?

The reason women get so much maternity leave is purely the physical thing. If a woman adopts a child, she isn't entitled to any, or just a few days. So where's the injustice?

The rights of fathers vary depending on the country. In Ireland, I agree that it's very unfair to fathers but again, look at the other side of the coin. Do you really think the number of women who abandon their kids to go off with another partner or whatever is anything like the number of men who do it? How many single fathers do you see around? Not many.

Fukuyama

IvySlayer wrote: »

The 'respond' part was just for Kenzie Screeching Tongs.

Physically men are built stronger than women. What I'm saying is a fit male for the army is expected to do AT LEAST 5 miles and 100 push ups

A fit female is expected to AT LEAST 3 miles and 75 push ups, it's not sexist. The average woman just cannot keep up with the average man on a physical scale.

But women can. and some men cant. Again, your logic is flawed in that you're making allowances based on sex.

Women are now doing better in school than men, so should the be lower CAO points for men to get into college? No, because its not fair. What you can do is what makes you suitable for a position where you;re expected to be as good as your colleagues. It shouldn't be based on sex.

Fukuyama

[quote=[Deleted User];65883531]The reason women get so much maternity leave is purely the physical thing. If a woman adopts a child, she isn't entitled to any, or just a few days. So where's the injustice?

The rights of fathers vary depending on the country. In Ireland, I agree that it's very unfair to fathers but again, look at the other side of the coin. Do you really think the number of women who abandon their kids to go off with another partner or whatever is anything like the number of men who do it? How many single fathers do you see around? Not many.[/QUOTE]

For every single mother, there's a single farther. He just donest get the kids.

You're quoting a lot of figures about how many farther do this etc.... I'm yet to see any links.

Oh, an as described in my original link, more women call for divorces than men.

Hasmunch

Dean0088 wrote: »

Could anyone give me a REAL example where women have it tougher than men nowadays?

I agree, men have it tougher, Men can get kicked in the balls and all women have to go through is childbirth

Fukuyama

Kenzie Screeching Tongs: Why do you keep revising you previous posts after they have already been responded to and quoted from?

hmmm....

It's painfully obvious when quotes differ from the original and the original has been edited twice already...

IvySlayer

[quote=[Deleted User];65883531]The reason women get so much maternity leave is purely the physical thing. If a woman adopts a child, she isn't entitled to any, or just a few days. So where's the injustice?

The rights of fathers vary depending on the country. In Ireland, I agree that it's very unfair to fathers but again, look at the other side of the coin. Do you really think the number of women who abandon their kids to go off with another partner or whatever is anything like the number of men who do it? How many single fathers do you see around? Not many.[/QUOTE]

Just a physical thing for women? Oh yeah no father ever spends all 18 hours of labour caring for the mother, then taking care of the baby, all while expecting to do an 8 hour shift in work next day? With 3 days paid leave compard to 6 weeks for women! (I stand to be corrected on that)

The rights of fathers have a very similar pattern in almost every first world country, fathers are treated like ****.

Oh some man abandoned his child so all revenge must be taken on every father? Being a dad is so much harder when the mammy starts ****ing up the relationships. She can deny the father access, they won't bond, the relationship is destroyed. And she will still happily accept his money.

There are some dead beat dads who won't deserve children, I agree. And I personally know 3 friends who dads has raised them alone

Dean0088

Dean0088 wrote: »

But women can. and some men cant. Again, your logic is flawed in that you're making allowances based on sex.

Women are now doing better in school than men, so should the be lower CAO points for men to get into college? No, because its not fair. What you can do is what makes you suitable for a position where you;re expected to be as good as your colleagues. It shouldn't be based on sex.

I'm not discussing with you any further because you just don't get the point. You mentioned 'equality' - well to have 'equality' you need to discriminate against somebody. That's how it works at the beginning. That's why blacks were hired over whites in post-apartheid South Africa. Very unfair for the white people who were finishing school or college, but there were years where black people had no chance of getting jobs. Same in Northern Ireland, employers made sure to hire a certain number of Catholics to prevent Protestants continuing to have all the jobs. That still happens today.

IvySlayer

Dean0088 wrote: »

But women can. and some men cant. Again, your logic is flawed in that you're making allowances based on sex.

Women are now doing better in school than men, so should the be lower CAO points for men to get into college? No, because its not fair. What you can do is what makes you suitable for a position where you;re expected to be as good as your colleagues. It shouldn't be based on sex.

Yes, I put the word average in there for a reason

You're talking about brains, women don't have larger brains.

All the guns are the same weight, all driving licenses are the same point scoring system.

Dean0088

Dean0088 wrote: »

For every single mother, there's a single farther. He just donest get the kids.

You're quoting a lot of figures about how many farther do this etc.... I'm yet to see any links.

Oh, an as described in my original link, more women call for divorces than men.

If you honestly believe that, there's nothing more I can say. You really think that as many women as men abandon their families? Just look around. Women are absolutely vilified for leaving their kids. Men do it all the time. I don't have time to go looking for statistics but I'm sure they're everywhere.

Dean0088 wrote: »

Kenzie Screeching Tongs: Why do you keep revising you previous posts after they have already been responded to and quoted from?

hmmm....

It's painfully obvious when quotes differ from the original and the original has been edited twice already...

It's none of your business. FYI I edited one post because of a typo and because I cited the wrong poster. I'm sure you think it's all a conspiracy against you. :rolleyes:

IvySlayer wrote: »

Just a physical thing for women? Oh yeah no father ever spends all 18 hours of labour caring for the mother, then taking care of the baby, all while expecting to do an 8 hour shift in work next day? With 3 days paid leave compard to 6 weeks for women! (I stand to be corrected on that)

They normally don't have to go into work the next day though, do they? As you said, they have 3 days paid leave. I spent 15 hours with my cousin having her baby when her boyfriend left her before the kid was born. I didn't get a minute off work, because I didn't have the kid.

The rights of fathers have a very similar pattern in almost every first world country, fathers are treated like ****.

Look, it's just never going to be the same for both sexes. Men have some issues, women have others. If the laws are changed for men, expect them to be changed for women.

Oh some man abandoned his child so all revenge must be taken on every father? Being a dad is so much harder when the mammy starts ****ing up the relationships. She can deny the father access, they won't bond, the relationship is destroyed. And she will still happily accept his money.

There are some dead beat dads who won't deserve children, I agree. And I personally know 3 friends who dads has raised them alone

Indeed. Some women behave badly. Some men behave badly. Personally, I know only one person whose mother left the family compared to about 25 people whose dads left, but I will check it out.

Fukuyama

[quote=[Deleted User];65883606]I'm not discussing with you any further because you just don't get the point. You mentioned 'equality' - well to have 'equality' you need to discriminate against somebody. That's how it works at the beginning. That's why blacks were hired over whites in post-apartheid South Africa. Very unfair for the white people who were finishing school or college, but there were years where black people had no chance of getting jobs. Same in Northern Ireland, employers made sure to hire a certain number of Catholics to prevent Protestants continuing to have all the jobs. That still happens today.[/QUOTE]

Nope, thats just called equality. I guess they decided to hire black people to be doctors without degrees then? hmm?

You choose not to 'argue' (I would have though it as more of a debate) with me fine. It think it very clear from your numerous post edits, going back on your agrument numerous times etc... that you're at a loss here.

I do get your point, but its based on NOTHING but preconceived notions. Anybody who has read through our discussion will easily spot (I even highlight some in bold) where I requested you demonstrate your points, identify the flaws in my arguments and where I wanted you to backup claims. You failed on every occasion prefering to respond with a wishy washy argument about women being discriminated for hundreds of years and thus they deserve a break now and using nature to give women an 'easier time', as you put it, but denying the fact that fathers have as much natural bonding to do with children etc...

You also twised countless words etc... and made a few personal comments and even exclaimed 'How big of you' in reference to me in one of you numerous post edits when I said women are fully entitled to their maternity leave because they're human, i.e. natural carers and the ones who naturally care physically for the child and to recover physically. You made out as though I disputed this right. I didnt. Just asked you if it was fair for a man to go to work right after his child was born.

Obviously, you have double standards, which is not uncommon. So dont feel bad.

Good talk all th same. It opened my eyes up a little, I wont lie.

- Dean.

IvySlayer

[quote=[Deleted User];65883697]
They normally don't have to go into work the next day though, do they? As you said, they have 3 days paid leave. I spent 15 hours with my cousin having her baby when her boyfriend left her before the kid was born. I didn't get a minute off work, because I didn't have the kid.



Look, it's just never going to be the same for both sexes. Men have some issues, women have others. If the laws are changed for men, expect them to be changed for women.[/QUOTE]

The first part: You were neither the mother or the father, it was your choice alone to do it.

The second part: You're happy with the law the way it is? You think it's fair?

Dean0088

Dean0088 wrote: »

Nope, thats just called equality. I guess they decided to hire black people to be doctors without degrees then? hmm?

Who said that? I'm sure they hired black people to be doctors while there were more qualified white candidates. How is it different with women and men?

You choose not to 'argue' (I would have though it as more of a debate) with me fine. It think it very clear from your numerous post edits, going back on your agrument numerous times etc... that you're at a loss here.

I do get your point, but its based on NOTHING but preconceived notions. Anybody who has read through our discussion will easily spot (I even highlight some in bold) where I requested you demonstrate your points, identify the flaws in my arguments and where I wanted you to backup claims. You failed on every occasion prefering to respond with a wishy washy argument about women being discriminated for hundreds of years and thus they deserve a break now and using nature to give women an 'easier time', as you put it, but denying the fact that fathers have as much natural bonding to do with children etc...

I'm just on the Internet finishing some work. I don't have time to get into a full blown debate. I'm posting my opinions. Like you are. Like we all are. Only I'm not bullying you.

You also twised countless words etc... and made a few personal comments and even exclaimed 'How big of you' in reference to me in one of you numerous post edits when I said women are fully entitled to their maternity leave because they're human, i.e. natural carers and the ones who naturally care physically for the child and to recover physically. You made out as though I disputed this right. I didnt. Just asked you if it was fair for a man to go to work right after his child was born.

It was unclear what you meant by 'human'. I never said men shouldn't have a day off work. I said that there is a very obvious reason why women have so much more leave. What's your point? In any place I've ever worked, the father has been able to get 2 or 3 days off. So where's the injustice?

Obviously, you have double standards, which is not uncommon. So dont feel bad.

Good talk all th same. It opened my eyes up a little, I wont lie.

- Dean.

Your views on woman are apparent from your posts, so no personal offence taken. I've met plenty of condescending, bullying types in my time and I expect to meet many more. Had a good laugh at your first post though. Women have it easier then men because of three points. If that's the best you could do, then I think you made my point better than I ever could have.

Fukuyama

[quote=[Deleted User];65883697]If you honestly believe that, there's nothing more I can say. You really think that as many women as men abandon their families? Just look around. Women are absolutely vilified for leaving their kids. Men do it all the time. I don't have time to go looking for statistics but I'm sure they're everywhere.

No I dont. I didnt say that. My comment ment, that when a man and a woman get divorced, they're both single parents. It's simple logic. It's just society only sees the woman as the single parent as she gets to keep the kids. The man is single. he is a parent. Thus, he is a single parent.


It's none of your business. FYI I edited one post because of a typo and because I cited the wrong poster. I'm sure you think it's all a conspiracy against you. :rolleyes:

No, as you can easily see from where I quoted you before the edit, you cnahged the post twice to insert a comment against me as mentioned in my last post. It wasnt a typo, you just decided to ad an unnessicary and watery point which you didnt base upon my argument


They normally don't have to go into work the next day though, do they? As you said, they have 3 days paid leave. I spent 15 hours with my cousin having her baby when her boyfriend left her before the kid was born. I didn't get a minute off work, because I didn't have the kid.

Okay. A scenario:

Holy crap. I'm a daddy now. A bundle of joy of the making of myself and my wife has been brought into this world with which I will owe the reminder of my life to care for, nurture, bond with, teach and love. ... three days... goody.



Look, it's just never going to be the same for both sexes. Men have some issues, women have others. If the laws are changed for men, expect them to be changed for women.

No it's never going to be the same for the sexes. Nobody said it would be. On natural ground that is. That doesnt justify LAW, the very thing which governs this society being sexist


Indeed. Some women behave badly. Some men behave badly. Personally, I know only one person whose mother left the family compared to about 25 people whose dads left, but I will check it out.[/QUOTE]

So you know 25 people whos dads left. Come on. So they all decided to do a runner and never see their kids. Is that it. Or this the marraige fall apart and the wife got the kids and home?

IvySlayer

IvySlayer wrote: »

The first part: You were neither the mother or the father, it was your choice alone to do it.

The second part: You're happy with the law the way it is? You think it's fair?

The point was, fathers, unlike friends and family, DO get time off. So why are you acting like they have to be in the office at 7 the next day? They don't.

No, I don't think the law is fair. But there are countless examples of things that aren't fair for women. I'm all for changing that law but at the end of the day someone is always going to lose something. In the Middle East and many other places, it's the men who have all the rights and can take the kids. I don't know of anywhere where it's 'perfect' for all parties.

davyjose

[quote=[Deleted User];65883697]

They normally don't have to go into work the next day though, do they? As you said, they have 3 days paid leave. I spent 15 hours with my cousin having her baby when her boyfriend left her before the kid was born. I didn't get a minute off work, because I didn't have the kid.

[/QUOTE]

This has angered me. this is the shìt us men have to deal with. We don't give birth to the baby, so we are now on a fcuking par with a baby's second cousin.

What a joke comment.

I spent the last two weeks caring for my 6 Month old, while he had the Flu, a chest infection and conjunctivitus, while his mother was in hospital. i went days without more than 2 or 3 hours sleep, and all I cared about was the well-being of my child. I love him so much I'd have chopped off my foot to make him better. it broke my heart to see him like that. But hey, I didn't give birth to him, so fcuk it. what emotional bond do I have.

:mad:

Dean0088

Dean0088 wrote: »

So you know 25 people whos dads left. Come on. So they all decided to do a runner and never see their kids. Is that it. Or this the marraige fall apart and the wife got the kids and home?

Yep. Pretty much. Most of them were having affairs and ran off with the other woman. Most of them never bothered seeing the kids again, and most of them left the wives behind with their debts and struggling to pay the mortgage. But you'd never believe that, would you? Since women always 'get the kids and home'. :rolleyes: Don't you get that plenty of men don't want the kids? That plenty of men can't or won't pay a penny?

Nevyn

There is no statatory paternity leave.
If your a man and you become a Dad you are not legally enitled to a single day off.
Every other country in the EU has leave, from 3 days to 6 weeks or shared leave with the mother but here, not a single day.

On unmarried fathers not having automatic right to a child, the law presumes that if the wants to ackownledge the child he will do the daycent thing and marry the mother.

The live uneployment register only show those who are advailible for work, there are plent of women who can't sign on or get a job who are trapped by the lack of affordable child care.

Fukuyama

[quote=[Deleted User];65883778]

I'm just on the Internet finishing some work. I don't have time to get into a full blown debate. I'm posting my opinions. Like you are. Like we all are. Only I'm not bullying you.

Were did I bully you?



It was unclear what you meant by 'human'. I never said men shouldn't have a day off work. I said that there is a very obvious reason why women have so much more leave. What's your point? In any place I've ever worked, the father has been able to get 2 or 3 days off. So where's the injustice?

I never said you said men shouldnt. Pretty much every man on thi thread has said that women deserve much, much more time off on both sides of the pregnancy. Why do you keep bringing that up? Not a single person has debated against it. The injustice is that the man should get 2-3 weeks off. He just got a new kid. Not a new car.

Your views on woman are apparent from your posts, so no personal offence taken. I've met plenty of condescending, bullying types in my time and I expect to meet many more. Had a good laugh at your first post though. Women have it easier then men because of three points. If that's the best you could do, then I think you made my point better than I ever could have.[/QUOTE]

My view on women? What do you mean by that? In numerous posts in this thread I said how women can do the same jobs as men, even how they fight bravely in overseas operations. In one post, I compared several professions and said that both male and female people who work in them can do the same job. I said femal builders have it the same as male builders. Female doctors have the smae tough job as male doctors. female soldiers etc... etc....

So then, what are my view on women?

All I'm doing is pointing out that men have numrous injustices, and it seems (I'm awaiting clarification on your point) your insinuating that I'm a sexist.

davyjose

davyjose wrote: »

This has angered me. this is the shìt us men have to deal with. We don't give birth to the baby, so we are now on a fcuking par with a baby's second cousin.

What a joke comment.

I spent the last two weeks caring for my 6 Month old, while he had the Flu, a chest infection and conjunctivitus, while his mother was in hospital. i went days without more than 2 or 3 hours sleep, and all I cared about was the well-being of my child. I love him so much I'd have chopped off my foot to make him better. it broke my heart to see him like that. But hey, I didn't give birth to him, so fcuk it. what emotional bond do I have.

:mad:

You've chosen to twist my post totally out of context. Where did I mention an emotional bond? I said it's purely a physical thing. Adoptive parents have pretty much no leave at all, so what's the difference here? They love and bond with their children, but the fact is, they didn't give birth to the kid. The natural mother has more right to leave than they do, even though she gave the kid away. Why are you bringing feelings into this?

Nevyn

Dean0088 wrote: »

All I'm doing is pointing out that men have numrous injustices,

Grand so, somethings aren't fair, what are you doing to do about them?
Have you emailed the political parties and asked have they a policy on paternity leave? I have, found on only 1 of them did.
If you really want things to change, make that change happen.


Oh yeah sorry this is ah


Periods, pregnancy, bras and highheels, women have it worse, :P

Fukuyama

[quote=[Deleted User];65883850]Yep. Pretty much. Most of them were having affairs and ran off with the other woman. Most of them never bothered seeing the kids again, and most of them left the wives behind with their debts and struggling to pay the mortgage. But you'd never believe that, would you? Since women always 'get the kids and home'. :rolleyes: Don't you get that plenty of men don't want the kids? That plenty of men can't or won't pay a penny?[/QUOTE]

My mouth actually dropped open when I read that. Boards, particulary AH s known for generalisations, but this takes the biscuit.

You're basing your argument on people you know? You also say that 'plenty of men dont want kids'. Really, I'd say most men want kids. The same amount of women, anyway.

There are plenty of women who dont want kids either.

There are numerous single fathers or farther who are denied access to their kids on this website, and I've talked to quite a few of them. I'll allow them to vent their opinion on what you just said.