Ireland - 6th densest motorway network in Europe.

marmurr1916

Ireland will have the 6th densest motorway network in Europe by the end of 2010.

Roads. Well, I could hardly finish a post on “What has the Celtic Tiger ever done for us?” without mentioning roads! In the recession of the 1980s, transport infrastructure was largely sacrificed in favour keeping up high levels of investment in education. It looks like the same will happen again this time around, but not without Ireland putting in place a major motorway network for the first time. In 1996, there were just 21km of motorway for every million citizens. By the end of this year, that number will have increased by a factor of 10, making Ireland’s motorway network one of the largest in Europe (relative to population, of course), as the graph below shows. For those who can now drive from Dublin to Cork in about 150 minutes, that makes a huge difference.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/05/04/what-has-the-celtic-tiger-ever-done-for-us/

Click on the link above - it's even got a graph!

A couple of things stand out - Cyprus has the highest length of motorway network to population ratio, far higher than any other country. This is because it's got a very small population with some longish stretches of motorway, although it's overall network is pretty small.

Switzerland, the Netherlands and Lithuania are the only countries where the motorway to population ratio has declined.

No idea why this could have happened - I presume it's either because of an increase in population (in Switzerland???) or because existing motorways have been downgraded to non-motorway status.

The UK has one of the lowest motorway to population ratios, just above Bulgaria's and below even Slovakia.

If dual-carriageways had been taken into account, I'm sure the UK would be much higher up in the chart.

Think I'll go and post this on sabre now....:D

Aard

Cool graph. I'd imagine that AT, CH, and NL's decline is to do with population increases, and not detrunking. The top countries are generally small to medium sized, and, to me, Spain sticks out. However, Ireland has by far the largest motorway gain. No other country comes close!


Btw, where's Greece!?

John Lynch Ph.D

List slightly flawed as it doesn't take into account the amount of motorway lanes. Still good to see Ireland up the top regardless.

Chris_5339762

The UK looks like a disaster but they dont take into account the miles of 70mph DC that they have. Its not motorway quality, but apart from junctions it probably should be counted.

D.L.R.

Hate to break up this circle jerk, but we failed to build other things that were needed in order to facilitate motorway to every one horse town in this country.

Wow, we got our priorities wrong, lets congratulate ourselves about topping a meaningless chart! Lets see the urban metro chart eh. We're below flippin Armenia on that one...

BluntGuy

D.L.R. wrote: »

Hate to break up this circle jerk, but we failed to build other things that were needed in order to facilitate motorway to every one horse town in this country.

Wow, we got our priorities wrong, lets congratulate ourselves about topping a meaningless chart! Lets see the urban metro chart eh. We're below flippin Armenia on that one...

Improving the national trunk network was very important. I don't agree with every aspect of it, I think we paid too much for the land, all the motorways were delivered too late, and yes, like you said, we didn't invest even nearly enough in public transport or indeed other forms of infrastructure. But at least we can say we salvaged a decent primary road network from the Celtic Tiger mess. The motorways are in place now and won't have to be built again.

Would I have sacrificed 1 or 2 motorways to allow funding for more DART extensions or Luas lines - absolutely. Would I rather have DART Underground under construction now than the M8 motorway which I use regularly. Yes, I would, because DART Underground is of far more benefit. But I'm not going to ignore the positive impact the construction of the M8 and other motorways has had. Most countries had massive road-building projects at one point and I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of the massive progress we made in this regard. It's a pity progress in other areas wasn't quite so good.

Chris_5339762

But we have to get the missing links in the motorway and bypass network done befoer the environmental brigade get too big like they have in the UK.

Basically every single new scheme in the UK has to go through the same kind of crap the Galway bypass is. The M17/18/20/11 etc etc all have to get finished before this mentality takes over, which it will eventually.

dubhthach

TBH we need both. A proper road network with Trunk routes been motorway and proper rail system in Dublin. The issue pure and simple is that Fianna Fail kept on delaying projects so that they could have a big surplus which they could then distribute as Tax breaks for building "holiday homes"/hotels!

All the Interurbans were suppose to have been built by 2006, heck they weren't even started until then. If they had spent the money at time more then likely they could have started stuff like interconnector/metro north couple years ago.

Awh well how are we not surprised? After all Fianna Fail floated the canard of an underground Luas line connecting the red and green lines in 1997!

Pete_Cavan

dubhthach wrote: »

If they had spent the money at time more then likely they could have started stuff like interconnector/metro north couple years ago.

If we spent all the money we had in recent years we would be in a worse situation then Greece right now. At least we were able to reduce our national debt during the boom years and the last two years would have been a lot harder if we were paying interest on two €2bn projects as well. Not that I'm defending the government because those decisions were not taken with the current situation in mind but what was the wrong decision then has proved to be the right decision for now.

A comprehensive motorway network will put the country in a good possition when we come out of recession and provide scope for and accomodate growth. Dublin will always be the driver of the economy and projects like the metro north and interconnector allow for further growth here also. Two €2bn projects now will be a huge boost to the construction industry and now we have the eperience and the capacity to deliver such projects, and for less than they would have cost if they were started four or five years ago. The Celtic Tiger did a lot for the country but we needed a recession to keep us in check before we lost the run of ourselves completely and the experience will stand to us in the future. We seem to have dealt with it quite well all things considered and with the country becoming more competitive I am quite optimistic for the future.

me_right_one

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

But we have to get the missing links in the motorway and bypass network done befoer the environmental brigade get too big like they have in the UK.

Basically every single new scheme in the UK has to go through the same kind of crap the Galway bypass is. The M17/18/20/11 etc etc all have to get finished before this mentality takes over, which it will eventually.

There are far too many roads in Ireland now. You can see one motorway parallel to another in some places! Its fcuking ridiculous.

Chris_5339762

The M20 is the biggest missing link at the moment and that doesnt parallel anything.

dermothickey

Have'nt been on the cork-dublin route fully yet...does anyone know if there are petrol stations built on these routes like in Germany? Or do you have to drive 10 miles to get to a petrol stop?

Thoie

What am I doing wrong? According to Eurostat, in 2005 we had 247 km of motorway [irrelevant]. Using a rough measurement on Google Maps, I make it 458km of motorway now. With a population of 4.4 million, my sums say that we currently have 104km per million, which, on that graph, puts us down with FYROM.

I calculate that we'd need an additional 422km of motorway to bring us to 200km per million - is there really another 422km ready for the end of this year, or have my maths gone mad?

serfboard

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The M20 is the biggest missing link at the moment and that doesnt parallel anything.

Exactly. Neither will the M18/M17. The only road that is surplus to requirements is the M3 - and as someone else pointed out - that could have been accomplished by swinging the M2 north-west after Ashbourne.

How do I know the M3 is surplus to requirements? Because the government has had to give the PPP concessionaires a guarantee to make up the shortfall if/when the numbers using the road fall short of predictions.

If the road was badly needed and was going to be used, there would have been no need for this guarantee, which was not given on any other PPP AFAIK.

murphaph

Thoie wrote: »

What am I doing wrong? According to Eurostat, in 2005 we had 247 km of motorway [irrelevant]. Using a rough measurement on Google Maps, I make it 458km of motorway now. With a population of 4.4 million, my sums say that we currently have 104km per million, which, on that graph, puts us down with FYROM.

I calculate that we'd need an additional 422km of motorway to bring us to 200km per million - is there really another 422km ready for the end of this year, or have my maths gone mad?

Google maps has loads of currently open motorway missing from it though, so unless you factored that in, the calculation is meaningless.

owenc

What does that mean the uk roads are worse or what? I've never been on an irish motorway but going by the roads i'd say that the uk motorways would be 10 times better than the irish motorways. (as a whole)

Aard

All it means is that the UK's maps have less blue line on them per capita than Ireland's. It says nothing about quality.


Although, having said that, the quality of Irish motorways is excellent.

nordydan

owenc wrote: »

What does that mean the uk roads are worse or what? I've never been on an irish motorway but going by the roads i'd say that the uk motorways would be 10 times better than the irish motorways. (as a whole)

As you've never been on an Irish motorway, coming from Coleraine, means you've never been to Dublin. So I would have doubts as to your knowledge of anything in the Republic.

The surfaces on southern motorways are in general better than those in the north, mainly perhaps because they are newer builds as opposed to the stillborn northern system. Furthermore there are no A8(M) or M12 equivalents down here, and AFAIK, only 1 (M2/M5) motorway/HQDC freeflow junction (I count 10 in ROI).

10 times better would (?) mean they are designed for ten times the design speed or carry 10 times the AADT, so unless the UK system is made up of a D20M to D40M network with a design speed of 1600km/h, I would doubt your figures.


As far as I can work out, there are just under 700km of motorway open in the republic, with just over 200km U/C. Quick comparison here with rough figures, when the U/C and PPP schemes are open, then ROI will be ahead of GB in area terms as well. Point noted about the HQDC network in GB.

AREA POP KM KM/10000AREA KM/10000POP
ROI 70273 4500000 700 9.96 155.56
NI 13843 1714600 109.4 7.90 63.80
GB 219000 615000000 3387.6 15.47 5.51

Victor

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Celtic Tiger did a lot for the country but we needed a recession to keep us in check before we lost the run of ourselves completely

Eh, I think we did. We built 1-2 motorways too many. Just because we could.

Victor

Nordydan, do you want to check your figures? The [noparse][/noparse] function presents data like that in a better fashion.

Location AREA POP KM KM/10,000 AREA KM/million POP
ROI 70,273 4,500,000 700 99.61 155.56
NI 13,843 1,714,600 109 79.03 63.80
GB 219,000 61,500,000 3,560 162.54 57.88

serfboard wrote: »

Exactly. Neither will the M18/M17. The only road that is surplus to requirements is the M3 - and as someone else pointed out - that could have been accomplished by swinging the M2 north-west after Ashbourne.

How do I know the M3 is surplus to requirements? Because the government has had to give the PPP concessionaires a guarantee to make up the shortfall if/when the numbers using the road fall short of predictions.

If the road was badly needed and was going to be used, there would have been no need for this guarantee, which was not given on any other PPP AFAIK.

To say its the only one is probably wrong. To build the M9 and M11 is a waste and the M8 could have easily gone via Limerick.

Using the PPP test is only useful in the M3 case as most of the other motorways had majority state funding anyway. With the other routes the government basically said "No PPP partner will support these routes unless we build 80% of them (and provide the land for the PPP bit)."

owenc wrote: »

What does that mean the uk roads are worse or what?

Its merely one narrow metric.

I've never been on an irish motorway but going by the roads i'd say that the uk motorways would be 10 times better than the irish motorways. (as a whole)

Not quite. The problem in this country is there is too much minor road per head of population. To blindly say that one country's motorways are ten times better is just that, blind.

That said, British motorways do tend to have more lanes and service areas, better lighting, signage and cold weather preparation, but part of that is down to them being more urbanised and busier.

amacachi

Victor wrote: »

Location AREA POP KM KM/10000 AREA KM/10000POP
ROI 70273 4500000 700 9.96 155.56
NI 13843 1714600 109.4 7.90 63.80
GB 219000 615000000 3387.6 15.47 5.51

No idea what you're using to do your sums.

I make them like this.
Location POP KM KM/10000POP
ROI 4500000 700 1.5556
NI 1714600 109.4 0.6380
GB 615000000 3387.6 0.5508
Your decimals are wrong, and not consistently to still give useful information.

Aard

Aard wrote: »

All it means is that the UK's maps have less blue line on them per capita than Ireland's. It says nothing about quality.


Although, having said that, the quality of Irish motorways is excellent.

There are plenty of A roads in the UK that carry considerably more traffic than the interurban motorways here.

Aard

I know; that's why I said "blue line". If all the UK's high-quality A roads were taken into account, their km per capita would of course be much higher.

Chris_5339762

Victor wrote: »

That said, British motorways do tend to have more lanes and service areas, better lighting, signage and cold weather preparation, but part of that is down to them being more urbanised and busier.

And organised

Pete_Cavan

serfboard wrote: »

The only road that is surplus to requirements is the M3 - and as someone else pointed out - that could have been accomplished by swinging the M2 north-west after Ashbourne.

I dont think it is the M3 that is surplus to requirements, it is the M2. I use the M2 every week when travelling from Cavan to Dublin and there is very little other traffic on it. Currently the NRA encourages hauliers heading north to Derry to use the M1 as far as the N33 road to Ardee, avoiding the dangerous sections of the parallel N2 in the environs of Slane, Collon and Ardee. Monaghan traffic uses the M1. When the M3 is opened the M2 will only serve Ashbourne and Slane. These could have been accommodated off the M3, Ashbourne traffic via Ratoath turnoff and Slane traffic as far as Navan and then take an improved N51 (or M1). Accessing Slane from Navan side would also avoid the need for the controversial Slane bypass as most traffic would no longer have to cross the bridge.

The M2 is too short as well, with only 13km of motorway and 4km of duel carriageway. There are only two junctions southbound, St. Margarets/Blanchardstown and Ashbourne (south)/Ratoath/Swords, and one northbound, Ashbourne (south)/Ratoath/Swords. Given the lack of junctions and limited destinations I think a national primary road standard or possibly 2 plus 1 would have sufficed.

The M3 will serve other towns including Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin and Trim which would not be accommodated had the M2 gone north-west after Ashbourne. If the option of using the M2, which is free, was removed it would increase numbers on the M3. Instead we will have three motorways passing through county Meath when two would have been enough, I wonder where the Minister for Transport is from?

me_right_one

The M3 is going nowhere near Trim, and yes, Dempsey is a corrupt ba$tard. The buying / selling of the land for the M3 was negotiated by none other than dempseys son-in-law, who got a percentage of every transaction. There's more to it, but my blood is boiling already:mad:

LordSutch

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Ireland will have the 6th densest motorway network in Europe by the end of 2010.

Maybe? but without any service stations :mad: Its such a joy to drive on British motorways, always knowing that you can stop for a coffee, toilet, burger, even a sleep, all within ten or twenty miles (without coming off the motorway) . . .

nordydan

AREA POP KM KM/1000 AREA KM/Million POP
ROI 70273 4500000 700 9.96 155.56
NI 13843 1714600 109.4 7.9 63.8
GB 219000 61500000 3387.6 15.47 55.08

GB population overestimated by factior of 10. Best I can do, or attach spreadsheet:

marmurr1916

ROI has a population of ca. 4.5 million according to the lastest estimates, whereas the UK has a population of ca. 61.5 million, according to the latest estimates.

UK motorways are mainly D3M (although Scotland has large sections of D2M) serving very large urban centres and are incredibly busy by Irish standards.

The UK has an extensive network of dual-carriageways that this chart doesn't include.

Some of these are similar to Irish High-Quality Dual-Carriageways, for example the A55 and the A14.

Most of the remainder are older-style dual-carriageways with at-grade junctions (lots of roundabouts!), median-openings, openings to private properties, right-hand turns and no hard-shoulders.

A comparison between Ireland and Croatia is probably more realistic than a comparison between Ireland and the UK.

Both countries have a similar population (ROI = ca. 4.5 million, latest estimates; Croatia = ca. 4.5 million, 2009 estimate), are smallish states (ROI = 70,273 sq km; Croatia = 56,542 sq km) and have capital cities with large shares of the population (Dublin incl. suburbs = ca. 1.2 million; Zagreb incl. suburbs = ca. 1.1 million).

owenc

Victor wrote: »

Nordydan, do you want to check your figures? The [noparse][/noparse] function presents data like that in a better fashion.

Location AREA POP KM KM/10,000 AREA KM/million POP
ROI 70,273 4,500,000 700 99.61 155.56
NI 13,843 1,714,600 109 79.03 63.80
GB 219,000 61,500,000 3,560 162.54 57.88

To say its the only one is probably wrong. To build the M9 and M11 is a waste and the M8 could have easily gone via Limerick.

Using the PPP test is only useful in the M3 case as most of the other motorways had majority state funding anyway. With the other routes the government basically said "No PPP partner will support these routes unless we build 80% of them (and provide the land for the PPP bit)."

Its merely one narrow metric.

Not quite. The problem in this country is there is too much minor road per head of population. To blindly say that one country's motorways are ten times better is just that, blind.

That said, British motorways do tend to have more lanes and service areas, better lighting, signage and cold weather preparation, but part of that is down to them being more urbanised and busier.

Ok, so there is more motorway per person for down south, i thought the english motorways were better due to three lanes etc.

Cool Mo D

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Some of these are similar to Irish High-Quality Dual-Carriageways, for example the A55 and the A14.

Most of the remainder are older-style dual-carriageways with at-grade junctions (lots of roundabouts!), median-openings, openings to private properties, right-hand turns and no hard-shoulders.

Note however that the UK's high quality dual carriageways, like the A14, for example are worse in a very important way than Ireland's motorways - they don't have hard shoulders.

And in Switzerland, motorways generally don't have hard shoulders - there can be quite a big difference in standards of how motorways are built between countries.

Cool Mo D

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Note however that the UK's high quality dual carriageways, like the A14, for example are worse in a very important way than Ireland's motorways - they don't have hard shoulders.

.

That's why they are not classified as motorways, despite the fact that they carry such high volumes of traffic.

Tech3

owenc wrote: »

Ok, so there is more motorway per person for down south, i thought the english motorways were better due to three lanes etc.

3 Lanes doesnt make a motorway "better". It is designed for more capacity over 2 lanes that is all.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

That's why they are not classified as motorways, despite the fact that they carry such high volumes of traffic.

Also, the environmental lobby is easier sidestepped for an application for a dual carriageway, as "motorway" sets off the alarm bells in the greeny camp.

LordSutch

Irish Motorways & the lack of Motorway Services, anyone notice?

Camelot

Camelot wrote: »

Irish Motorways & the lack of Motorway Services, anyone notice?

When you see signs outside petrol statons in Athlone saying "Last petrol station before Dublin!" you do


OK I know that there will soon be one opening at Enfield.

Tech3

Camelot wrote: »

Irish Motorways & the lack of Motorway Services, anyone notice?

We are well aware of the lack of MSA's on the motorway network. There is a thread on the progress of these here