Protest on 18th - will you go?

stupidusername

I saw the coverage of the protest in Dublin on Tuesday night on the Vincent Brown show on tv3, and was glad that I got to see all of it, because if I had just watched the news the next day, if it was RTE I wouldn't have known anything had happened, or if it was tv3 I would've thought it was full of violence. Because I watched Vincent Brown I got to see the full coverage as it inspired me to want to join in this protest.

I think the next day the fact that all was shown was the violent few lads fighting with the guards definitely gave the impression to anyone watching that this was a waste of time, or even potentially dangerous to go join. I am considering going to the next one on Tuesday, and I hope that even more people turn out. Although I think that it really should take a clear direction in terms of showing what people want to happen.

I, for one, think that the only solution to getting things back on track to to create jobs. No point in complaining how we got here, blaming people here and there etc as this won't lead to a solution. Along with demanding the government get on with creating jobs, the only other thing that I think is right to do is for the CEOs and MDs and Ministers should all be made to take a huge pay cut, and this business of bonuses, and extravagant expenses and pensions should be gotten rid of.

I just want to know what other people's reactions were to the coverage of the protest, and then how it will affect your decision as to whether or not to go.

danman

I think I'm washing my hair that day.... Either that or I acually don't want to be associated with anything to do with extreme socialists or Eirigi.

Inquitus

stupidusername wrote: »

I saw the coverage of the protest in Dublin on Tuesday night on the Vincent Brown show on tv3, and was glad that I got to see all of it, because if I had just watched the news the next day, if it was RTE I wouldn't have known anything had happened, or if it was tv3 I would've thought it was full of violence. Because I watched Vincent Brown I got to see the full coverage as it inspired me to want to join in this protest.

I think the next day the fact that all was shown was the violent few lads fighting with the guards definitely gave the impression to anyone watching that this was a waste of time, or even potentially dangerous to go join. I am considering going to the next one on Tuesday, and I hope that even more people turn out. Although I think that it really should take a clear direction in terms of showing what people want to happen.

I, for one, think that the only solution to getting things back on track to to create jobs. No point in complaining how we got here, blaming people here and there etc as this won't lead to a solution. Along with demanding the government get on with creating jobs, the only other thing that I think is right to do is for the CEOs and MDs and Ministers should all be made to take a huge pay cut, and this business of bonuses, and extravagant expenses and pensions should be gotten rid of.

I just want to know what other people's reactions were to the coverage of the protest, and then how it will affect your decision as to whether or not to go.

remove the last 8 letters of your moniker and I think you have it about right.

stupidusername

stupidusername wrote: »

No point in complaining how we got here, blaming people here and there etc as this won't lead to a solution.

Is protesting not just complaining on the streets instead of online?

Complaining to the government won't create jobs.

stupidusername

danman wrote: »

I think I'm washing my hair that day.... Either that or I acually don't want to be associated with anything to do with extreme socialists or Eirigi.

I don't remember hearing anything about particular groups or societies being mentioned in reference to this. I don't want to be associated with any communist or socialist party or political party either, but marching in a group of a few thousand people doesn't mean that you will be. It's a bit of a cop out answer.

Deleted User wrote: »

Is protesting not just complaining on the streets instead of online?

Complaining to the government won't create jobs.

Well, that's not exactly true (remember old people & medical cards??). If we continue to be a nation of people that constantly say 'oh well sure what can we do' then things will continue to get worse. What exactlyl could change if no one complains about the way things are being dealt with?

northwest100

danman wrote:

I think I'm washing my hair that day.... Either that or I acually don't want to be associated with anything to do with extreme socialists or Eirigi.

Obviously you're a kleptocrat or oligarch who would love Ireland to be controlled by a bank for bankers in some foreign country.

daman supports fraud so the protest is a no brainer..

Scarab80

northwest100 wrote: »

Obviously you're a kleptocrat or oligarch who would love Ireland to be controlled by a bank for bankers in some foreign country.

daman supports fraud so the protest is a no brainer..

Why are you so obsessed with the banks. Even if there was no global financial crisis, no anglo. no fingelton we would be in exactly the same position we are in now.

We paid ourselves ridiculous wages with money borrowed from Germany and France and convinced ourselves that we were rich, the fact that we have now realised how stupid we were has nothing to do with the banks and more to do with a recognition of reality.

Remember bank bailout this year 1bn, Deficit 20bn

northwest100

Scarab80 wrote:

We paid ourselves ridiculous wages with money borrowed from Germany and France and convinced ourselves that we were rich, the fact that we have now realised how stupid we were has nothing to do with the banks and more to do with a recognition of reality.

Yes, it's a complete farce..

None of that wealth ever existed in reality, it's all phony yet we're now obliged to work it off while they continue living their luxurious lifestyles...

The whole thing is one huge scam.

And i'm not in debt, but i will be paying for others and i'm not happy about it, are you happy about it? you happy to pay someone elses debts?

Not really concerned about some fraud lovers comin on here sayin "ah shut up, what else could we do? we have to pay the piper"

Banks are parasites..that's all they are.

danman

northwest100 wrote: »

Obviously you're a kleptocrat or oligarch who would love Ireland to be controlled by a bank for bankers in some foreign country.

daman supports fraud so the protest is a no brainer..

Yes, I support fraud.
Protest all you want, I'm quite happy here in my mansion. The servents will keep the haying crowd from the gates of of my estate.

danman

northwest100 wrote: »

Yes, it's a complete farce..

None of that wealth ever existed in reality, it's all phony yet we're now obliged to work it off while they continue living their luxurious lifestyles...

The whole thing is one huge scam.

And i'm not in debt, but i will be paying for others and i'm not happy about it, are you happy about it? you happy to pay someone elses debts?

Not really concerned about some fraud lovers comin on here sayin "ah shut up, what else could we do? we have to pay the piper"

Banks are parasites..that's all they are.

please research to cost of the bank bailouts and the cost of the deficit.
Then, calmly come back here and tell us which is worse.

northwest100

danman...what are you talking about?

Who is paying for the bailout? who?

It makes no sense!! you get yourself into debt, then you get out of that debt with more debt!!

brilliant plan...ffs

Scarab80

northwest100 wrote: »

Yes, it's a complete farce..

None of that wealth ever existed in reality, it's all phony yet we're now obliged to work it off while they continue living their luxurious lifestyles...

The whole thing is one huge scam.

And i'm not in debt, but i will be paying for others and i'm not happy about it, are you happy about it? you happy to pay someone elses debts?

Not really concerned about some fraud lovers comin on here sayin "ah shut up, what else could we do? we have to pay the piper"

Banks are parasites..that's all they are.

It's not other peoples debt i will be paying for, it's todays social welfare and public sector bill.

Banks don't come into it (well not to a great extent)

northwest100

Scarab80 wrote:

It's not other peoples debt i will be paying for, it's todays social welfare and public sector bill.

Banks don't come into it (well not to a great extent)

This always gets dragged into the argument in defense of banking practices.

Who is giving the government all this money? the tooth fairy?

Banks are lending, irresponsibly to the Irish government.
They lent irresponsibly to Irish people.

danman

northwest100 wrote: »

danman...what are you talking about?

Who is paying for the bailout? who?

It makes no sense!! you get yourself into debt, then you get out of that debt with more debt!!

brilliant plan...ffs

how much is the deficit?

24 billion this year. (there, or thereabouts)

that is only this year. 4 billion of that is Anglo. The rest is social welfare and PS wages.
Next year, what will the deficit be?
The same 20 billion as this year for spending.

Where is our main problem?

Yet you want a protest against the smallest part of our problem, while conveniently forgetting about the largest part?

As I said, go and research the deficit, then tell us where our problems are.

Scarab80

northwest100 wrote: »

This always gets dragged into the argument in defense of banking practices.

Who is giving the government all this money? the tooth fairy?

Banks are lending, irresponsibly to the Irish government.
They lent irresponsibly to Irish people.

Eh, you are blaming the banks for giving us money to keep the country running?

1. The majority of our bonds go to institutional investors such as pension funds, not banks.

2. Irish people went to the banks looking for money not the other way around

3. Most of our borrowing will be with the EU soon as they have been buying up our bonds for the last 2 days and will probably subscribe for our future bond issues.

Banks are an easy target, they get paid too much and more importantly it's a lot easier to place the blame on them then accept that the irish people as a whole got carried away.

If you really want a banking target to vent your anger at it would be better aimed at the merchant banks and hedge funds than commercial banks. They are the guys who created the CDO's which brought down the world credit market and the guys who make billions while creating nothing.

20Cent

Go and bring your own banner.
March under whatever banner you want.

sceptre

I've deleted six posts, almost entirely pointless blather, from this thread. As always, making effort to stay on topic and to discuss the topic is welcome and expected, this is a serious forum as is noted in the sticky thread pointing that out. It's easy if you try.

/mod

Banned Account

I won't be going to any protest that is just anti-something and pro-nothing. An anti Bank bail out protest is about as useful as an anti-rain protest. We will still get wet.

What are the protesters advocating? The guarantee (blind and feckless as it was) is here, unless there is a way to unwind the facbric of time, strike it down before it was brought in and wind down the banks, then we are where we are. Come up with a realistic and workable alternative and you may find that protests aren't needed.

Until then, my I suggest that you have an anti-rain protest before the anti-bailout one - it may help attendance.

stupidusername

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

I won't be going to any protest that is just anti-something and pro-nothing. An anti Bank bail out protest is about as useful as an anti-rain protest. We will still get wet.

What are the protesters advocating? The guarantee (blind and feckless as it was) is here, unless there is a way to unwind the facbric of time, strike it down before it was brought in and wind down the banks, then we are where we are. Come up with a realistic and workable alternative and you may find that protests aren't needed.

Until then, my I suggest that you have an anti-rain protest before the anti-bailout one - it may help attendance.

Well what I'm proposing is for it to be pro-jobs instead of anti-bailout. I'm not saying there's a workable alternative to the bailouts, as I don't know enough about the financial sector (although back in 2008 I'm sure the solution would have been to just not bring in that guarantee). SOME banks need to be kept afloat but others don't.

But like I said in my original post the only solution is JOBS. And yet the government don't do anything about that.

hardCopy

What exactly is the protest for/against?

I don't see much point in marching simply to express my anger. This government has done a lot of things I disagree with, they have also done things I do agree with.

I wouldn't go along to this kind of thing as I feel it would be a show of support for the loonie left more than a show of protest against the government.

ixtlan

stupidusername wrote: »

But like I said in my original post the only solution is JOBS. And yet the government don't do anything about that.

What exactly do you want the government to do regarding jobs?

I'm not really sure where on the political spectrum I reside, but it seems clear that cutting public spending and welfare, leading to further cost efficiences, will lead to more jobs. However that will be unpleasant for most people. People working will get pay cuts/freezes, people not working will find it more difficult to scrape by.

It's a reasonable question to ask exactly what policies the protest is advocating, and whether in our global world those policies really would create jobs.

Ix.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

stupidusername

ixtlan wrote: »

I'm not really sure where on the political spectrum I reside, but it seems clear that cutting public spending and welfare, leading to further cost efficiences, will lead to more jobs. However that will be unpleasant for most people. People working will get pay cuts/freezes, people not working will find it more difficult to scrape by.

Just wondering how would cutting spending and welfare lead to jobs? If lots of jobs are created then this means less is paid in welfare, and more are earning more, which means more taxes,meaning more towards the deficit, which means slowly coming out of recession, no?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't know that many groups advocate for higher minimum wage, higher welfare etc. I definitely don't agree with that, and have never read anything from someone saying this. Do people not realise that we can't cut JSA/JSB and minimum wage unless rents/mortgages are lowered? You can't argue that other countries survive on less of a minimum wage etc as other countries don't pay as much in rents taxes etc....

Wondering also where you read about the dumbing down of standards, and inflating grades? Link?

stupidusername

stupidusername wrote: »

Well, that's not exactly true (remember old people & medical cards??). If we continue to be a nation of people that constantly say 'oh well sure what can we do' then things will continue to get worse. What exactlyl could change if no one complains about the way things are being dealt with?

That involves taxing (workers) and spending (on non workers) - it is the opposite of creating jobs.

Byron85

stupidusername wrote: »

Wondering also where you read about the dumbing down of standards, and inflating grades? Link?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0303/1224265501148.html

US MULTINATIONAL companies are reluctant to recruit graduates from many Irish third-level colleges because of concern about declining standards, Minister for Education Batt O’Keeffe was told at a recent meeting with representatives of Google, Intel and other major companies.
The meeting was told that while some companies were delighted with the calibre of graduates from UCD, TCD and UCC, they had concerns about other colleges.
There are reports in education circles that some colleges – one university and some institutes of technology – have been “black-listed” by US multinationals.
But this was denied yesterday by senior industrialists contacted by The Irish Times .
Last night, John Herlihy of Google Ireland said the December meeting with the Minister was confidential and he refused to give any details.
Asked about Google’s recruitment policies in Ireland he said: “We recruit from all seven universities but we recruit principally from three universities – UCD, UCC and Trinity. All three are producing outstanding graduates across the range.’’
Mr Herlihy is general manager and vice-president, global advertiser operations, with Google.
It was the December meeting with Mr O’Keeffe which prompted the Department of Education inquiry into grade inflation in the Leaving Cert and in higher education. Mr O’Keeffe is expected to give details of the findings to the Dáil tomorrow.
The Minister has hinted that some Irish third-level colleges are operating below the expected quality threshold.
But he has stressed that he is not engaged in a witch-hunt. His focus is on challenging colleges to go to the next level.
It is understood that the chief executive of the Higher Education Authority, Tom Boland, was also alerted to concerns about grade inflation during a meeting with a US multinational company six months ago.
Last year, Mr Boland also voiced fears of declining academic standards, where what he termed “spoon-fed’’ Leaving Cert students were struggling to cope at third level.
On RTÉ radio on Monday, Mr Herlihy expressed dismay about the standard of CVs prepared by graduates from some colleges. Many, he said, were littered with basic spelling and grammatical errors.
Yesterday, the president of NUI Maynooth , Prof John Hughes, disputed claims of widespread grade inflation.
Interviewed on RTÉ’s News at One, he said the cut in resources for higher education represented a much more serious threat to academic standards.
He was responding to reports that the rate of first-class honours degrees awarded by most Irish universities has increased by more than 100 per cent since 1994,.
The study shows an increase of more than 700 per cent in the number of firsts awarded by NUI Maynooth over this period.
Prof Hughes said the awarding of first-class honours degrees at NUI Maynooth today is fully in line with the Irish university sector. The quality and standard of degrees awarded by NUI Maynooth are externally and independently validated by academics from leading international universities.
In another reaction, the president of Dublin City University, Ferdinand von Prondzynski, said Irish education faced a series of problems. “We have a school system that is offering an education that, while staffed by dedicated teachers, is largely out of date, with questionable learning methods and with a syllabus that is not sufficiently adapted to society’s changing needs.”

Scarab80

stupidusername wrote: »

Just wondering how would cutting spending and welfare lead to jobs? If lots of jobs are created then this means less is paid in welfare, and more are earning more, which means more taxes,meaning more towards the deficit, which means slowly coming out of recession, no?

It reduces our cost base making irish goods and services cheaper and more able to compete in terms of exports and in attracting FDI.

The only other way to create jobs is government investment in infrastructure, such as building Metro North, which is going ahead. The problem with this type of investment is that because of planning laws in Ireland it takes a long time for these projects to get from the drawing board to construction (where most of the jobs will be created). Metro North has been in planning for many years already and it will still be at least a year before construction begins. There are also numerous wind farm projects stuck in planning and waiting for grid connections.

If it was that easy to just create jobs don't you think we would have done it already. I think you would be better off marching for reform in our planning laws than against the bank bailout.

stupidusername

Scarab80 wrote: »

It reduces our cost base making irish goods and services cheaper and more able to compete in terms of exports and in attracting FDI.

The only other way to create jobs is government investment in infrastructure, such as building Metro North, which is going ahead. The problem with this type of investment is that because of planning laws in Ireland it takes a long time for these projects to get from the drawing board to construction (where most of the jobs will be created). Metro North has been in planning for many years already and it will still be at least a year before construction begins. There are also numerous wind farm projects stuck in planning and waiting for grid connections.

If it was that easy to just create jobs don't you think we would have done it already. I think you would be better off marching for reform in our planning laws than against the bank bailout.

Maybe I''m missing something, but I don't see how building a metro for dublin is meant to entice business investment?

Banned Account

Maybe I am missing something but I fail to see the correlation between anti-bailout and pro jobs. My main issue is that people are using an emotive issue as an excuse for a pitchfork and torches march for something which is entirely unrelated. This makes me believe that they are being irrational and I do not want to take part in an irrational protest.

Scarab80

stupidusername wrote: »

Maybe I''m missing something, but I don't see how building a metro for dublin is meant to entice business investment?

Reducing our cost base has a greater immediate effect on attracting business investment.

But building an efficient public transport system also has it's long term benefits - both to society and business. It will reduce the use of motor vehicles, reducing our imports of oil and vehicles, it allows our capital to function by transporting more people to the city efficiently (can you imagine London without the tube, NY without the subway - they simply wouldn't be as successful as they are), it improves the quality of life for people in the city.

Also with infrastucture projects like this we are able to apply for European funds, the metro north was appproved for a European Investment Bank Loan for 500m last week, this is much cheaper than going to the bond markets.

danman

stupidusername wrote: »

Maybe I''m missing something, but I don't see how building a metro for dublin is meant to entice business investment?

You want the Government to create jobs.
The only jobs that a government can directly create are PS jobs or infrastrucuure jobs.

The PS jobs lead to a higher deficit, which is pointless in this time.

So that leaves infrastructure.

The other way jobs can be indirectly created, is by lowering the countries cost base. i.e. Lowering wages.
FDI will invest in a country that has lower wage costs and lower corporation taxes than competitive countries.

That is why Metro North is important, as well as other infrastructure projects.

If you want to protest, protest for lower cost base, and more infrastructure.
The bailouts are irrelevant to the issue of creating jobs.

This is why more people don't join these protests.
The protests simply shout about populist issues, with no thought into how these issues need to be tackled.
The main problem is that the solutions to the problems are unpalatable to the main instigators of these protest.

Greece are the perfect example of this. The rioters are protesting against the very measures that are needed to bring the country out of it's recession.

danman

I hadn't realised that Scarab80 had answered.

stupidusername

danman wrote: »

You want the Government to create jobs.
The only jobs that a government can directly create are PS jobs or infrastrucuure jobs.

The PS jobs lead to a higher deficit, which is pointless in this time.

So that leaves infrastructure.

The other way jobs can be indirectly created, is by lowering the countries cost base. i.e. Lowering wages.
FDI will invest in a country that has lower wage costs and lower corporation taxes than competitive countries.

That is why Metro North is important, as well as other infrastructure projects.

If you want to protest, protest for lower cost base, and more infrastructure.
The bailouts are irrelevant to the issue of creating jobs.

This is why more people don't join these protests.
The protests simply shout about populist issues, with no thought into how these issues need to be tackled.
The main problem is that the solutions to the problems are unpalatable to the main instigators of these protest.

Greece are the perfect example of this. The rioters are protesting against the very measures that are needed to bring the country out of it's recession.

But would you not agree that if this is what you're going to do, that means rents and general living costs have to be lowered as well?

northwest100

danman wrote:

Greece are the perfect example of this. The rioters are protesting against the very measures that are needed to bring the country out of it's recession.

i know castro-lovers like myself would just make this up, bernanke-fraud-lovers would deny a lot of money from the government ends up in private sector hands, are you denying this?

take for example private hospitals or health insurance, BANKS... tax incentives..etc
all funded by tax payer too.

EDIT: a lot of the new jobs being created will all be funded by tax payer, if not ALL of them.

that's socialism..being a proud socialist myself, i agree we need to bail out the banks.

danman

northwest100 wrote: »

i know castro-lovers like myself would just make this up, bernanke-fraud-lovers would deny a lot of money from the government ends up in private sector hands, are you denying this?

take for example private hospitals or health insurance, BANKS... tax incentives..etc
all funded by tax payer too.

EDIT: a lot of the new jobs being created will all be funded by tax payer, if not ALL of them.

that's socialism..being a proud socialist myself, i agree we need to bail out the banks.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

northwest100

danman wrote:

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

the point is that we need banks to get bailed out so they can provide us all with money again to and get the economy back on track.

yes, tax payers will foot the bill, but hey...know your place, peasants.
my porsche needs a service.

Mister men

Yes i'm going and i've organised a group of about 20 or so from my job that are going in also. Seems like the turnout will be larger than last time going by what i've heard. Good to see people getting angry about the crooks at the top for a change.:)

danman

stupidusername wrote: »

But would you not agree that if this is what you're going to do, that means rents and general living costs have to be lowered as well?

We've had deflation for the past 2 years. Bring down the cost of living.

Do you want the department of social welfare to lower rent allowance?
I'd agree, but try to tell that the the protesters you will meet at the Dail on Wednesday.

This is exactly the type of measure required. It is a perfect example of the measures that are not palatable to the organisers of the protest.

Of course the cost of living must be lowered.
This is done, either by devaluing currency (we can't, we're in the Euro) or by lowering wages accross the board in the country.

Again, is this palatable to the protesters?

If they protest for something, instead of shouting populist slogans that mean nothing in reality, they might get more support.

Scarab80

stupidusername wrote: »

But would you not agree that if this is what you're going to do, that means rents and general living costs have to be lowered as well?

Yes, and they do follow a reduction in wage cost base. Total deflation is running at about 3% p.a. at the moment and is down 10% from it's peak in May 2008. This has been brought about by reduced wages and increased competition.

northwest100

danman wrote:

Of course the cost of living must be lowered.

Yes, NAMA is key to this.

danman

northwest100 wrote: »

the point is that we need banks to get bailed out so they can provide us all with money again to and get the economy back on track.

yes, tax payers will foot the bill, but hey...know your place, peasants.
my porsche needs a service.

I'm sorry, I can't hear.... The servants are complaining about the cabbage soup that I will only buy them.

If you agree with the bailouts, why do you want to participate in an Anti-Bailout protest?

northwest100

danman wrote:

I'm sorry, I can't hear.... The servants are complaining about the cabbage soup that I will only buy them.

If you agree with the bailouts, why do you want to participate in an Anti-Bailout protest?

i changed my mind, it's clear we need a bailout and tax payers need to pay for it, it's their fault anyway.

NAMA will ensure Ireland returns to growth in the later half of this year..prices can only go higher, wages, house prices..etc

we're over the worst.

danman

northwest100 wrote: »

Yes, NAMA is key to this.

NAMA is actually a part of the solution.

There are many projects ongoing at present, whose funding are being transfered to NAMA.
If this doesn't happen, I and many others will be out of work.
More people on the dole.

But NAMA and bailouts are irrelevant to the deficit.
We are still €20 billion above our income.

I can't understand your reasoning in this thread.
Are you simply Anti-everything?

northwest100

danman wrote:

NAMA is actually a part of the solution.

There are many projects ongoing at present, whose funding are being transfered to NAMA.
If this doesn't happen, I and many others will be out of work.
More people on the dole.

But NAMA and bailouts are irrelevant to the deficit.
We are still €20 billion above our income.

I can't understand your reasoning in this thread.
Are you simply Anti-everything?

No, you misunderstand me.

I'm now pro-NAMA, pro-bailout and against those protesters.

To tell you the truth, we should get willie o dea to send out the army, round up those protesters into a higgins boat and send them to cuba where they belong!!

Scofflaw

northwest100, stop playing the eejit.

moderately,
Scofflaw

L5

Since 6am there are 6 eirigi protestors chained to the railings of Anglo Irish bank. Could get interesting later today!

silverharp

sorry for butting in here, but whats the skinny on "eirigi" is it some form of Sinn Fein youth?

Eliot Rosewater

I don't think so. They're more extremist than Sinn Fein Youth as far as I can see, though there could be lot of people joined both organizations, as seems to be the norm with far Left groups.

P. Breathnach

silverharp wrote: »

sorry for butting in here, but whats the skinny on "eirigi" is it some form of Sinn Fein youth?

This is how they present themselves: http://www.eirigi.org/

Scofflaw

L5 wrote: »

Since 6am there are 6 eirigi protestors chained to the railings of Anglo Irish bank.

A good start. Might go and set up a tomato stand.

amused,
Scofflaw

Eliot Rosewater

P. Breathnach wrote: »

This is how they present themselves: http://www.eirigi.org/

One of their pages has a poster expressing a rejection of Gerry Adams.

http://www.eirigi.org/campaigns/spot_difference.html

So not Sinn Fein affiliated, for definite.

Could these lads not have protested when NAMA was first mentioned or thought up? Rather than when it's clearly too late?