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22.250 - No longer deer legal?

  • 12-05-2010 6:38pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭


    This came as a surprise to me as I'd not heard anything about it til a mate had his licence refused. Apparently it doesn't make 1700 ft lbs.

    Anyone any opinions or stats he could use to argue otherwise?

    I'm getting various figures off google, between 16 and 1700ish.

    It was deadly to deer for decades up to now.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    This came as a surprise to me as I'd not heard anything about it til a mate had his licence refused. Apparently it doesn't make 1700 ft lbs.

    Anyone any opinions or stats he could use to argue otherwise?

    I'm getting various figures off google, between 16 and 1700ish.

    It was deadly to deer for decades up to now.

    It does, it is, and it can be used.

    You need 60grain ammo thats al. Federal Remington,Hornady and winchester all have 60grain!

    It clearly states on the Deer form GRAIN weight and min is 1700 ft/lbs


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Duck's hoop


    Thanks for that.

    I've not looked at the form myself. And the guys I know don't know that much about the finer points of ballistics tbh. They do shoot straight though, and have been taking many deer from the hill for a long, long time. Basically if it makes a deer dead then it's not getting any deader.

    I'm not meaning to be glib but the deer won't notice a difference of 40 or 50 ft lbs. I realise there has to be a lower limit but I think you'll understand the point I'm making. And a lot of the older shooters just shoot without having a huge knowledge of the physics.

    I will pass that info on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    Thanks for that.

    I've not looked at the form myself. And the guys I know don't know that much about the finer points of ballistics tbh. They do shoot straight though, and have been taking many deer from the hill for a long, long time. Basically if it makes a deer dead then it's not getting any deader.

    I'm not meaning to be glib but the deer won't notice a difference of 40 or 50 ft lbs. I realise there has to be a lower limit but I think you'll understand the point I'm making. And a lot of the older shooters just shoot without having a huge knowledge of the physics.

    I will pass that info on.

    Well it's just how it is!
    l know you are not glib. I personally think it is a bit silly as they state .22-250 and 55grains 1700ft/lbs
    yet 55 grains is under 1700.
    I know where you are coming from, All stalkers have just to follow the guidelines layed down.

    5 more grains is all you need!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Well it's just how it is!
    l know you are not glib. I personally think it is a bit silly as they state .22-250 and 55grains 1700ft/lbs
    yet 55 grains is under 1700.
    I know where you are coming from, All stalkers have just to follow the guidelines layed down.

    5 more grains is all you need!

    It's possible to make 1700 ft/lbs with 55gr bullets, just have to launch them hard enough.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Duck's hoop


    Thanks again. I'd say the guy in charge of refusing/granting licences just looks up a table and doesn't have any real sense of what happens on the ground. But as you say rules is rules.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭patsat


    Are they issuing the stalking licences already???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    patsat wrote: »
    Are they issuing the stalking licences already???

    The renewals were out about a month ago, you can download the form off NPWS.ie and send it off and you will still have it for september

    http://www.biodiversity.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Deer%20Hunting%20Application%20Form.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    Had my application rejected because I'd put down 55 grain. Rang NPWS who confirmed I needed to reapply with 60 grain. The IDS also confirmed 60 grain was acceptable. A word of warning, 60 grain are not so easy to get hold of at the moment. When you source some, buy a few boxes. I'd imagine they will become easier to get when the trade reacts to the latest decree from the NPWS!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭kay 9


    I wonder if this will make the mighty 22-250 easier licence for varmint use? Would love to get one sometime for foxy. Class round


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    kay 9 wrote: »
    I wonder if this will make the mighty 22-250 easier licence for varmint use? Would love to get one sometime for foxy. Class round

    Thats what I use mine for mostly, got the gun first for foxes, applied for deer license later. I actualy managed to persuade my FO to allow me exchange a .22LR for the .22/250!!! Sometimes the Guards fixation with the numbers can be worked in our favour - 'but Garda, it's just another type of .22';) If you can put up with the cost of ammo and occasional availability problems, it is a super fox round.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭kay 9


    Thats what I use mine for mostly, got the gun first for foxes, applied for deer license later. I actualy managed to persuade my FO to allow me exchange a .22LR for the .22/250!!! Sometimes the Guards fixation with the numbers can be worked in our favour - 'but Garda, it's just another type of .22';) If you can put up with the cost of ammo and occasional availability problems, it is a super fox round.
    What part the country you in? Maybe ye have a more reasonable super man. I'll defo try my luck in gettin one sometime, I dont see the reason to not allow it. It's used alot in the UK for fox and in the states for coyote its a very popular round. A favourite among many.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭patsat


    The renewals were out about a month ago, you can download the form off NPWS.ie and send it off and you will still have it for september

    http://www.biodiversity.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Deer%20Hunting%20Application%20Form.pdf

    Yes got mine in the post about a month ago but when i was talking to them on the phone they said they would be issuing them until 1st August.

    Its clear some people have been refused I was just wondering did anyone get the deer license??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    patsat wrote: »
    Yes got mine in the post about a month ago but when i was talking to them on the phone they said they would be issuing them until 1st August.

    Its clear some people have been refused I was just wondering did anyone get the deer license??

    They used to issue them in order to have them mid July for people to licence.
    Get it in as early as you can.
    Your .270 will be just tasty for a few !

    PS; Any word on a stalking scope?
    You will want a good scope to handle the recoil of the .270 in a light barrel hunter!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭jwshooter


    PS; Any word on a stalking scope?
    You will want a good scope to handle the recoil of the .270 in a light barrel hunter![/QUOTE]


    there would be more felt vibration in a air rifle ,as far as a scope is concerned


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    jwshooter wrote: »
    PS; Any word on a stalking scope?
    You will want a good scope to handle the recoil of the .270 in a light barrel hunter!


    there would be more felt vibration in a air rifle ,as far as a scope is concerned[/QUOTE]

    Explain to that to me? I'm not getting you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭patsat


    The recoil from the spring going off in an air rifle will cause more damage to a scope! It is supposedly alot stronger, I don't know the exact reasoning but I remember being told before never to put an ordinary scope on a air rifle as it will destroy it!

    Will have the scope sorted out and hopefully on the gun within the next few days!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    patsat wrote: »
    The recoil from the spring going off in an air rifle will cause more damage to a scope! It is supposedly alot stronger, I don't know the exact reasoning but I remember being told before never to put an ordinary scope on a air rifle as it will destroy it!

    Will have the scope sorted out and hopefully on the gun within the next few days!

    Well last air rifle I used was one of those bendy barrel jobbies I thought most of them were CO2 these days but I'm not sure.
    But i won't disagree as I know feck all about air rifles as they do not interest me.

    What scope you going to use?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    kay 9 wrote: »
    What part the country you in? Maybe ye have a more reasonable super man.

    At the time I was living in Finglas - the Super was based in Blanchardstown. I'd say the super man was more concerned about the much publicised illegal firearms in the area and happy to allow bona fide shooters get on with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭patsat


    What scope you going to use?

    Hmmmmm you said that was you up with fergal the other night. We had a discussion about the scope I was going to use!Your a man of mystery!

    Gonna use a bushnell yardage pro 4-12x44, picking it up tomorrow hopefully!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    patsat wrote: »
    Hmmmmm you said that was you up with fergal the other night. We had a discussion about the scope I was going to use!Your a man of mystery!

    Gonna use a bushnell yardage pro 4-12x44, picking it up tomorrow hopefully!

    Ah yeah, But you have to play the game!

    Let us know how you get on with it!
    Figgy is finishing off my rebed tonite.

    So I'll have it out Sunday hopefully!
    Weather permitting.
    i'll have to Re-zero and see how she groups @ 100 200 and 300


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 793 ✭✭✭declan1980


    'but Garda, it's just another type of .22';)

    could you chance that for a 220 swift?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    declan1980 wrote: »
    could you chance that for a 220 swift?

    They are a .220 and not legal on deer so they are a .220
    Less than 5 rounds in mag bolt action unrestricted!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    They are a .220 and not legal on deer so they are a .220
    Less than 5 rounds in mag bolt action unrestricted!

    They are legal on deer, and they're still a .22 centrefire. People have gotten away with the same licence swap deal as for going to a .22-250.
    Mag capacity limits for unrestricted status only apply to rimfires. You can have any mag capacity you want in a centrefire without making it restricted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    They are legal on deer, and they're still a .22 centrefire. People have gotten away with the same licence swap deal as for going to a .22-250.
    Mag capacity limits for unrestricted status only apply to rimfires. You can have any mag capacity you want in a centrefire without making it restricted.

    No Sir, .220 Swift are by no means legal on deer!
    Never were, recheck your facts IWM

    that was the argument of the decade gone by.... fellas saying if they used 55grain etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    No Sir, .220 Swift are by no means legal on deer!
    Never were, recheck your facts IWM

    that was the argument of the decade gone by.... fellas saying if they used 55grain etc

    Yes. They are. A .220 Swift can fire a bullet of 55 grains or greater fast enough to make 1700 ft/lbs. That is what the law requires. Anything you say to the contrary is not backed up by law. Recheck your own facts there, Tack.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭DR6.5


    Tack there are lads who have .220 swift licenced for deer stalking, i was talking to john lambert the other week and he knows of about half a dozen lads that have the .220 swift licenced for stalking.

    dr6.5


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    No Sir, .220 Swift are by no means legal on deer!
    Never were, recheck your facts IWM

    that was the argument of the decade gone by.... fellas saying if they used 55grain etc

    The swift is more powerful than the .22-250. See this post here and the rest of the thread for a full discussion on it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    DR6.5 wrote: »
    Tack there are lads who have .220 swift licenced for deer stalking, i was talking to john lambert the other week and he knows of about half a dozen lads that have the .220 swift licenced for stalking.

    dr6.5

    i'll ask my local wildlife ranger, if they are in it is new. If they are in it may mean many fox shooters now have Deer hunting calibres AFAIK which are classed as needing home inspected by CPO to get a deer hunting calibre last I checked.

    It's a new one on me if it is, as I said previously the swift boys were arguing for years, still means no shooting coillte as they require .24 min

    I will have to take a while to get back on this one as ranger i would not call on his day off for something trivial

    Test Barrel (24") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
    Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
    3600/1726 3195/1360 2826/1063 2485/823 2169/627 1877/470

    That is a 60 grain hornady out of a 24" barrel, as per hornady

    It would mean a lot of guys now have the option of going for deer if that was the case
    In fact it opens a can of worms on classifications as everything has now changed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    rrpc wrote: »
    The swift is more powerful than the .22-250. See this post here and the rest of the thread for a full discussion on it.

    I never said it was not, I said it WAS NOT LEGAL up until this.
    The swifts were got as .22's

    They were a wolf in sheeps clothing licence wise
    As I said, I'll chat my wildlife ranger tomorrow.

    in a 60grain they just make the ft/lbs at the muzzle, I would not like them on the shoulder of a deer though as they lose their energy too quick

    But nothing fails to surprise me with firearms and legislation:confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Tac stop talking ****e. You're wrong, again :rolleyes:

    I know lads who have permits to shoot deer with Swifts and have for years

    I have a 220 swift. So you reckon anyone with a swift can now run out and shoot deer BUT to shoot deer I need a permit from NPWS also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    Tac stop talking ****e. You're wrong, again :rolleyes:

    I know lads who have permits to shoot deer with Swifts and have for years

    Well why are you not doing it then and talking a little less on the subject matter?

    You have a swift years and you have not shot a deer yet! your words not mine


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    I never said it was not, I said it WAS NOT LEGAL up until this.
    The swifts were got as .22's

    They were a wolf in sheeps clothing licence wise
    As I said, I'll chat my wildlife ranger tomorrow.

    in a 60grain they just make the ft/lbs at the muzzle, I would not like them on the shoulder of a deer though as they lose their energy too quick

    But nothing fails to surprise me with firearms and legislation:confused:

    They've been legal since 1976 when that legislation came into being. Seriously, read it, read the legislation. It's clear as day. If you could put some sort of wonderpowder in a .223 that would make the velocity required to hit 1700 ft/lbs, then you could use that. It's a .22 calibre bullet, of at least 55 grains, with a muzzle energy of 1700 ft/lbs. That is the only requirement in law, which is all that matters. NPWS are entitled to refuse things as they see fit, as far as I'm aware, but that's the law. Whether most .220 Swifts and .22-250s will make the legal limit is up for debate - personally I think if you chronographed everyone using them, a lot would come up short - but the law is the only thing that matters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    They've been legal since 1976 when that legislation came into being. Seriously, read it, read the legislation. It's clear as day. If you could put some sort of wonderpowder in a .223 that would make the velocity required to hit 1700 ft/lbs, then you could use that. It's a .22 calibre bullet, of at least 55 grains, with a muzzle energy of 1700 ft/lbs. That is the only requirement in law, which is all that matters. NPWS are entitled to refuse things as they see fit, as far as I'm aware, but that's the law. Whether most .220 Swifts and .22-250s will make the legal limit is up for debate - personally I think if you chronographed everyone using them, a lot would come up short - but the law is the only thing that matters.

    Well i might get near that speed in a 28" .223 so I will chronograph and add to my licence if it is possible.

    I know several guys who had swifts back in 1996 and could not licence them on deer


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc



    That is a 60 grain hornady out of a 24" barrel, as per hornady

    It would mean a lot of guys now have the option of going for deer if that was the case
    In fact it opens a can of worms on classifications as everything has now changed.
    This isn't new. Swifts have been used for deer hunting since back when the fullbores were taken up.

    It's written in black and white in the wildlife act: min .22ins, 1700 ft/lbs, 55 grain.

    Here's a comparison table:

    Cartridge (Wb+type)|MV (fps)|V @ 200yds|ME (ftlbs)|E @ 200yds
    .204 Ruger (33 BTSP)|4225|3025|1308|671
    .22 Hornet (45 Sp)|2690|1502|723|225
    .222 Rem. (50 Sp)|3140|2123|1094|500
    .223 Rem. (55 Sp)|3240|2304|1282|648
    .22-250 Rem. (55 Sp)|3680|2656|1654|861
    .22-250 Rem. (60 Sp)|3600|2826|1727|1064
    .220 Swift (55 SpBT)|3800|2990|1765|1090
    .223 WSSM (55 SpBT)|3850|3064|1810|1147
    .243 Win. (80 Sp)|3350|2593|1993|1194
    .243 Win. (100 Sp)|2960|2449|1945|1332


    Easy to see which is the more appropriate cartridge.

    Edit: after reading your last couple of posts, just need to add this: The .22-250 loses its energy quicker than the swift and doesn't have as much to start with.

    But remember that the ballistics table is no use to you if you are using an underpowered round. You need to check your ammo is legal as that's what the wildlife act specifies. No point whinging about a ballistic table when you bought a round that didn't make the grade.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Well why are you not doing it then and talking a little less on the subject matter?

    I know I can use it for deer shooting, have done a long time. You didn't :rolleyes:
    You have a swift years and you have not shot a deer yet! your words not mine

    Maybe because I don't have a NPWS permit :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Well i might get near that speed in a 28" .223 so I will chronograph and add to my licence if it is possible.

    I know several guys who had swifts back in 1996 and could not licence them on deer

    You won't get within an ass's roar of it. You can add maybe an extra hundred to one-fifty fps with the extra barrel, that's assuming it's a quick barrel anyway, and not all are. It's not an extra five hundred, which is what you'd need.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Oh and one last thing tack while you're down in that hole with the shovel :D. The .220 Swift is exactly the same diameter bullet as the .22-250: .224 inch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    'course, there is the IDS's view on this, which was that they didn't want to ban the .22-250 for deerhunting because they didn't think it was worth the effort; they expected everyone would naturally move away from the .22-250 to more suitable rounds without anyone having to say or do anything.

    Just sayin'...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    rrpc wrote: »
    Oh and one last thing tack while you're down in that hole with the shovel :D. The .220 Swift is exactly the same diameter bullet as the .22-250: .224 inch.

    I am familiar with the .224 head, I have had several .22 and derivatives in my family down the years.

    I have a .223 at the moment which I bought a .224 barrel for.
    I have held a deer hunting licence 9 years heading for 10.

    The deer hunting application until This year was .22-250 Min with a 55grain
    This year low and behold a 1700ft/lbs was added
    I just rang my friend who shoots .22/250 and he has been told Thursday by NPWS that a 60-64grain bullet is required in .22/250(yet the [permit states otherwise as of today)
    http://www.biodiversity.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Deer%20Hunting%20Application%20Form.pdf

    This opens a lot of controversy as many people were refused deer hunting licenses in the past for .220 swifts on the same Criteria.

    I will contact ballybay in the morning and get clarification on this as many of my friends have had .220 swifts for foxes and a separate rifle for deer.

    if this is accepted by NPWS who issue the Permits not any other source then it leaves my friends open to having no need to have 2 rifles in theory.

    I have said it was an old argument as friends of mine had swifts for years, but they had to get .270's 5.5x57 .243's to shoot deer for years and have to buy ammo at the mercy of the dealers.

    If this is the case the amount of deer hunting licenses will increase dramatically this year.

    I've witnessed a lot of strange things down the years with licensing and calibres.

    I have to reserve judgement until I get positive confirmation tomorrow.

    I would love to see the swift as a deer calibre as many of my mates would be able to join me without having to buy another rifle.

    So I will hand you back the Shovel Sir as I do not require it.
    I will climb out and freely admit i am wrong tomorrow if i get confirmation more than hearsay.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Here you are Tac ;)

    humble-pie.jpg

    You must be tired of eating it :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    Here you are Tac ;)

    humble-pie.jpg

    You must be tired of eating it :pac:

    I'd rater be wrong on something i believed to be right, than right on something that is wrong.

    I wish you the very best in a NPWS deer hunting application with your swift. i would love to see it.

    I did not believe I would get a pistol until I had one in my hand, waiting time 16 days.

    But I am glad it did happen.
    My cousins will be even happier as they have just saved €3k on another decent set up when they have a decent fox set up that they can now just change ammo and apply for a permit.
    It's winners all round IF it's true.

    You seem to think I am just going against the flow, i am just working within the last parameters I was given. if they have changed so be it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭jwshooter


    thing is ,no one get into stalking will buy a 2-50 .

    any one that has one is a well aware of how under inadequate there are for irish deer .what a fucx up back then .

    also any one that shoots one is probably a better shot that your average stalker .

    no new licences should be issued for the 2-50 for stalking ,it should be just faze it out .

    total crap restricting a cal over 5 grains and a few fps. why not say only shoot hinds and calfs with your 55gr bullet .

    ireland , FFS dont ask some one that knows , same as the new deer regulations , no one asked the npws , now there is more problems to stop it ,thankfully .it might not get through before the summer 4 months off now :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    jwshooter wrote: »
    thing is ,no one get into stalking will buy a 2-50 .

    any one that has one is a well aware of how under inadequate there are for irish deer .what a fucx up back then .

    also any one that shoots one is probably a better shot that your average stalker .

    no new licences should be issued for the 2-50 for stalking ,it should be just faze it out .

    total crap restricting a cal over 5 grains and a few fps. why not say only shoot hinds and calfs with your 55gr bullet .

    ireland , FFS dont ask some one that knows , same as the new deer regulations , no one asked the npws , now there is more problems to stop it ,thankfully .it might not get through before the summer 4 months off now :D

    What you think of this JW?
    I know you must know a lot of stalkers.
    Seems like the goal posts keep moving these days.

    I'm glad I'm well over the 1700 issue with a .308.

    what are your thoughts on a swift for deer, fallow, red and Sika and Hybrids?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    .22 centrefires aren't deer cartridges, and but for the few esoteric examples, deer hunting was never envisaged in their design and construction. Once you start getting into the 6mm+ cartridges, then you're on the money for deer rifles. For anyone who wants a fox and deer rifle, the .243's a good bet, or a .25-06 if you don't mind the extra little bit of kick.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    .22 centrefires aren't deer cartridges, and but for the few esoteric examples, deer hunting was never envisaged in their design and construction. Once you start getting into the 6mm+ cartridges, then you're on the money for deer rifles. For anyone who wants a fox and deer rifle, the .243's a good bet, or a .25-06 if you don't mind the extra little bit of kick.

    I'm not disagreeing with your point, several around me had old styer 5.6mm Rifles during the 80's and early 90's.
    Deer hunters had to take what they were given.
    Hunters the same.
    You could buy slugs but not use them on deer, now you can't do either.

    a .22lr was treated like a WMD, an air rifle was the same licence back when i was growing up. Shotguns were OK though! And you could licence at 16

    The point i am making is that the current deer permit application does state min .22-250 even though a swift has higher muzzle energy and is the same sized head in width.

    The laws are not made by shooters. We just have to obey them........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Yeah, so you're agreeing with people that say the Swift is legal. Here's how the logic goes:

    1. .22-250 is powerful enough to shoot deer.
    2. .220 Swift is more powerful than .22-250.
    3. Therefore, .220 Swift is powerful enough to shoot deer.

    That's crudely put, but there's no way that logic doesn't hold up provided the assertions are correct in and of themselves, which isn't universally the case, but certainly can be. Take a .22-250 with a 22" sporter barrel and chronograph it with the 55gr, 60gr, or whatever ammo of your choice and I'm betting those factory figures look a little optimistic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    Yeah, so you're agreeing with people that say the Swift is legal. Here's how the logic goes:

    1. .22-250 is powerful enough to shoot deer.
    2. .220 Swift is more powerful than .22-250.
    3. Therefore, .220 Swift is powerful enough to shoot deer.

    That's crudely put, but there's no way that logic doesn't hold up provided the assertions are correct in and of themselves, which isn't universally the case, but certainly can be. Take a .22-250 with a 22" sporter barrel and chronograph it with the 55gr, 60gr, or whatever ammo of your choice and I'm betting those factory figures look a little optimistic.

    i'm not disagreeing.
    I never was about the suitability or not of the calibre

    I have listened for years as folks gave out that they had to buy a .243 for deer when the swift had more punch than a .22-250

    I'm just stating that us stalkers have been swindled, and perhaps the .22-250 is doomed as a stalking rifle as only heaviest rounds are permitted which severly limits the calibre for hunting, Reference a guy i know who has been refuse dthis year for the first tim ein 30 years, he was told use 64grain on the application.

    it's him I feel sorry for, as he is getting the run around.
    I'm sure he would have bought a swift 10 or 15 years ago if they were approved in my Jurisdiction of NPWS, I can not comment on other areas of the country.

    I do know that each Ranger has to sign each form for the relevant area and applicant.

    I am bemused by the fact that so many changed from swifts also 5 years ago to .223's to save on ammo prices and get greater availability, now them lads if had sticked with it could be shooting deer come 1st Sept.

    It must be an Irish solution to an Irish problem:D:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    I am familiar with the .224 head, I have had several .22 and derivatives in my family down the years.

    I have a .223 at the moment which I bought a .224 barrel for.
    I have held a deer hunting licence 9 years heading for 10.

    The deer hunting application until This year was .22-250 Min with a 55grain
    This year low and behold a 1700ft/lbs was added
    I just rang my friend who shoots .22/250 and he has been told Thursday by NPWS that a 60-64grain bullet is required in .22/250(yet the [permit states otherwise as of today)
    http://www.biodiversity.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Deer%20Hunting%20Application%20Form.pdf
    Tack, the law has been the same since 1976. There is no contradiction on the form you linked.

    It says the minimum calibre is .22-250 - correct, check the ballistics table I provided.
    It says the minimum muzzle energy is 1700 ft/lbs - correct, check the wildlife act.
    It says the minimum bullet weight is 55 grains - correct, again check the wildlife act.

    In other words, your round has to be no less than .22-250 AND have a ME of >1700 ft/lbs AND have a minimum head weight of 55 grains. Fail any of those tests individually and you're not deer legal.

    You're adding the three together and coming up with the wrong answer. The .22-250 with a 55 grain head will not make 1700 ft/lbs (going by the table I provided) hence NPWS are looking for 60-64 grain with that round. Pretty simple really. They've added the 1700 ft/lbs requirement to the form because people were obviously (like you) thinking that a .22-250 with a 55 grain head was deer legal, which it is not.

    The only thing that's not in the wildlife act is .22-250, it just says .22 centrefire - which both the .22-250 and the .220 swift are. The NPWS put .22-250 on the form because that's the lowest calibre that will make the muzzle energy requirement (providing you use the correct head weight). It's not the first time a form hasn't contained all the information, but it does refer to the correct section of the wildlife act which it's your responsibility to know and understand.

    And just to conclude, in case you're still confused:

    The swift in 55 grain has always been deer legal, the .22-250 only deer legal with a heavier than 55 grain bullet. There's nothing new in this, it's only new to you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    rrpc wrote: »
    Tack, the law has been the same since 1976. There is no contradiction on the form you linked.

    It says the minimum calibre is .22-250 - correct, check the ballistics table I provided.
    It says the minimum muzzle energy is 1700 ft/lbs - correct, check the wildlife act.
    It says the minimum bullet weight is 55 grains - correct, again check the wildlife act.

    In other words, your round has to be no less than .22-250 AND have a ME of >1700 ft/lbs AND have a minimum head weight of 55 grains. Fail any of those tests individually and you're not deer legal.

    You're adding the three together and coming up with the wrong answer. The .22-250 with a 55 grain head will not make 1700 ft/lbs (going by the table I provided) hence NPWS are looking for 60-64 grain with that round. Pretty simple really. They've added the 1700 ft/lbs requirement to the form because people were obviously (like you) thinking that a .22-250 with a 55 grain head was deer legal, which it is not.

    For the record, the ME of a 60 grain .22-250 is 1726 ft/lbs.

    The only thing that's not in the wildlife act is .22-250, it just says .22 centrefire - which both the .22-250 and the .220 swift are. The NPWS put .22-250 on the form because that's the lowest calibre that will make the muzzle energy requirement (providing you use the correct head weight). It's not the first time a form hasn't contained all the information, but it does refer to the correct section of the wildlife act which it's your responsibility to know and understand.

    And just to conclude, in case you're still confused:

    The swift in 55 grain has always been deer legal, the .22-250 only deer legal with a heavier than 55 grain bullet. There's nothing new in this, it's only new to you.

    pretty simple really , Just off the phone from Ballybay and they said .220 Swift is not on their chart of deer calibres and they have not licenced one, however I will be providing them with the official ballistics tables on the rounds.
    They girl said she would pass the information up the line and see what happens.
    But as of today, she said no!

    I'm not confused sir, Far from, I go by NPWS criteria, if they say it's not on the list, it is not on the list, YET.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    rrpc wrote: »
    Tack, the law has been the same since 1976. There is no contradiction on the form you linked.

    The only thing that's not in the wildlife act is .22-250, it just says .22 centrefire - which both the .22-250 and the .220 swift are. The NPWS put .22-250 on the form because that's the lowest calibre that will make the muzzle energy requirement (providing you use the correct head weight). It's not the first time a form hasn't contained all the information, but it does refer to the correct section of the wildlife act which it's your responsibility to know and understand.

    [B]The swift in 55 grain has always been deer legal, you get me one guy or gal who has licenced one on a .220 swift, the .22-250 only deer legal with a heavier than 55 grain bullet. [/B]There's nothing new in this, it's only new to you.

    You seem to be under the misunderstanding that I have no knowledge of the deer hunting procedure for application of a permit.

    I did not read it OFF THE NET, I rang the wildfife service, got a list of the approved calibers and bought one to suit my needs.

    A .223 magnum is also above the 1700ft/lbs criteria but have not been licenced to date.

    Unless Someone LIED on their application which would account for these HEARSAY .220 Swift that are currently licenced :D
    Which is an offence under the criteria by NPWS. It is the Hunters obligation to fill out form and fulfill criteria.

    Lots of calibres generate +1700ft/lbs. Not all of them can be used on deer.


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