EU proposals equate to "handing over of sovereignty of the State" - Enda Kenny

dlofnep

Kenny condems EU debt proposals

EU Commission proposals to compel euro states to seek pre-approval from Brussels for the amount of borrowing in their annual budgets were tantamount “to handing over sovereignty for the running of the economy” to the EU, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has said.

The Commission’s plan to tighten budgetary surveillance across euro zone states would allow for the Government’s “budgetary orientations” to be reviewed by the 15 other euro states before they are unveiled in the Dáil.

The measures are designed to compel euro members to cut their debt and avoid any repeat of the Greek debt crisis.

Mr Kenny said the proposals would amount to the handing over of sovereignty of the State and the running of Irish affairs “to peer groups, depending on their political whim, in the EU council of ministers”.

Full Article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0512/breaking36.html

Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

Discuss.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

Discuss.

Wow, you mean we won't be able to spend money we don't have like absolute lunatics? Shocking stuff.

dlofnep

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Wow, you mean we won't be able to spend money we don't have like absolute lunatics? Shocking stuff.

You mean like NAMA?

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

You mean like NAMA?

No, I'm talking about our current massive deficit.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign...
Discuss.

Simply a measure to ensure some governments don't go spending money they don't have and then come crying to Europe looking for a bailout. If it helps nip a situation like Greece in the bud then what's the problem? Nothing to do with our sovereignty

http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations-a-states/political-integration-and-national-sovereignty-3-22/48955.html

It's not even a Commission proposal, rather a Commissioner proposal. It hasn't even been discussed at any serious level.

delop

So when we get upset about budget measures do we have to fly to Brussels to protest? Oh hang on we dont do much of that....

Ive also got a bunch of art at home, I think Im paying too much tax, so who do I give the brown envelope to ?

Its getting very confusing now :-(

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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You know very well that Enda and his party and pro-EU. Therefore, for him to get up and make these comments - surely must turn heads. He is correct - Our sovereignty is in the heads of the EU. Do you disagree with his analysis of our sovereignty on this issue resting in Brussels?

steelcityblues

Fine Gael - a party filled with too many Euro snobs, who were just as guilty as FF and others of smearing and labelling NO supporters/voters as being something only short of fully blown Nazis/facists/choose description.

Too late indeed!

Tipp Man

So let me get this straight, when we joined the EURO we, and all the other countries, agreed to keep our budget deficits under 3% of GDP

Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't our current deficit in the region of 14%?? We are way way way over where the rules (which were there when we joined) state we should be. And whats more it might be acceptable if it was only for 1 year but we were over it last year, this year, and probably for the forseeable future. so too right Europe is entitled to be annoyed with us and the Greeks etc We are taking the Germans for a ride because we're afraid to take the really tough decisions and cut the expenditure dramatically

There is no sovergn issue here, just an issue of getting our finance in order and if that needs to come from the Germans because we'd rather storm the dail to complain about nothing then so be it

dlofnep

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is no sovergn issue here, just an issue of getting our finance in order and if that needs to come from the Germans because we'd rather storm the dail to complain about nothing then so be it

Actually, there is. Not having the ability to control our own budget is a quite clearly sovereignty issue. Whether you see benefits or drawbacks in other states keeping us in check, is separate issue altogether.

NOGMaxpower

EH everyone voted Yes to these changes.

Good riddence to bad governance in Ireland hello success in EU.

sock puppet

dlofnep wrote: »

Actually, there is. Not having the ability to control our own budget is a quite clearly sovereignty issue. Whether you see benefits or drawbacks in other states keeping us in check, is separate issue altogether.

But what exactly does it have to do with the Lisbon Treaty given that we have been using the Euro for over 10 years?

Anita Blow

Would this not constitute a transfer of sovereignty to the EU and mean that we would have to have another referendum on it?

Tipp Man

dlofnep wrote: »

Actually, there is. Not having the ability to control our own budget is a quite clearly sovereignty issue. Whether you see benefits or drawbacks in other states keeping us in check, is separate issue altogether.

So we sign up to agree to certain rules

We fail miserably and break these rules in quite a big way

Europe who is going to be the guys bailing us out when it goes tits up are saying right we want to see your plans to get back to not breaking the rules because us breaking the rules is causing serious pressure on not only Ireland but the whole EURO area

I think they are dead right to be honest

Byron85

You know what, the average person needs to be told what to do as simply put, they're idiots. Idiots elect idiots to represent them so if the EU wants to step in to Govern the country in some way, then let them at it. To paraphrase a friend of mine, the Irish people are an evolutionary cul-de-sac.

dlofnep

sock puppet wrote: »

But what exactly does it have to do with the Lisbon Treaty given that we have been using the Euro for over 10 years?

It doesn't directly - I was making the point that those who protested that sovereignty was being handed to Brussels, were ridiculed. Now those same people who have ridiculed them express concerns with our sovereignty.

dlofnep

Tipp Man wrote: »

So we sign up to agree to certain rules

We fail miserably and break these rules in quite a big way

Europe who is going to be the guys bailing us out when it goes tits up are saying right we want to see your plans to get back to not breaking the rules because us breaking the rules is causing serious pressure on not only Ireland but the whole EURO area

I think they are dead right to be honest

You've missed the point. I didn't ask if you saw benefits in it. I asked if it was an infringement on our sovereignty. It clearly is.

Permabear

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prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

You've missed the point. I didn't ask if you saw benefits in it. I asked if it was an infringement on our sovereignty. It clearly is.

It clearly isn't. We would not be handing over control of our budget. We would be allowing the review of our budget in Brussels. After that review the minister could come back and deliver any budget he liked. He is not getting a draft budget written for him. Obviously if it breaches the limits we already agree to ( and pooled our sovereignty in ) then there would be a slap on the wrist just the same way as now tbh. There's nothing new here.

As it stands...

Minister gives a bad budget - slap on the wrist from Europe.
Minister gives a good budget - hugs and kisses

Under Olli Rehn's proposal...

EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with bad budget - slap on the wrist.

EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with good budget - hugs and kisses.

The proposal is just giving the EU a bit more warning about what effect the budget we have prepared will have. Then they can keep schtum or warn minister that if he goes ahead with his proposed budget and they do not think it will help Ireland meet the limits we have already agreed to there will be consquences.

sock puppet

dlofnep wrote: »

You've missed the point. I didn't ask if you saw benefits in it. I asked if it was an infringement on our sovereignty. It clearly is.

Ah I see. I'm only young so I'm a little ignorant of the details of European treaties that have gone before Nice, but was the 3% budget deficit limit not set out in the Maastricht Treaty? I always found it crazy the way the some people were oppossed to Lisbon because of concerns over sovereignity but are actually in favour of the common currency.

ChocolateSauce

If tighter regulation (pooled sovereignty) can help us keep our borrowing in check, and help other nations do the same, then I'm all for it. We can't have a shared currency and no shared oversight. We've tried trusting the individual states to keep things in order, and so far only two are doing so.

sirromo

I can't see what the problem is. This is no different from a man seeking the approval of his wife or his employer on how he spends his weekly wages.

dan_d

I think the day we bailed out Anglo, we gave the EU the right to investigate our spending whatever way they want. If it improves our situation, then bring it on. We can't regulate ourselves - we've made that much obvious. Time for someone else to step in so, especially if we're spending someone else's money.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

It clearly isn't. We would not be handing over control of our budget. We would be allowing the review of our budget in Brussels. After that review the minister could come back and deliver any budget he liked. He is not getting a draft budget written for him. Obviously if it breaches the limits we already agree to ( and pooled our sovereignty in ) then there would be a slap on the wrist just the same way as now tbh. There's nothing new here.

As it stands...

Minister gives a bad budget - slap on the wrist from Europe.
Minister gives a good budget - hugs and kisses

Under Olli Rehn's proposal...

EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with bad budget - slap on the wrist.

EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with good budget - hugs and kisses.

The proposal is just giving the EU a bit more warning about what effect the budget we have prepared will have. Then they can keep schtum or warn minister that if he goes ahead with his proposed budget and they do not think it will help Ireland meet the limits we have already agreed to there will be consquences.

I think you'll find it's a little more than a slap on the wrist.

dlofnep

sirromo wrote: »

I can't see what the problem is. This is no different from a man seeking the approval of his wife or his employer on how he spends his weekly wages.

What - When does anyone ever have to seek the approval of his employer for how he spends his wages? What a terrible analogy.

Guy:Incognito

dlofnep wrote: »

Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

Discuss.

If this was as a result of Lisbon, why does it have to be discussed and passed?

dlofnep

Stekelly wrote: »

If this was as a result of Lisbon, why does it have to be discussed and passed?

It wasn't as a result of Lisbon.

sirromo

dlofnep wrote:

What - When does anyone ever have to seek the approval of his employer for how he spends his wages? What a terrible analogy.

I didn't say they do have to seek the approval of their employers. I just think it would be like people having to seek the approval of their employers.

Individuals should not be free to spend their way into debt. We need to think of the consequences of our actions on the wider society and so we should be prepared to allow the wider society to have a greater say in how we spend our money.

kippy

I knew fecking well when I spotted this "story" today that the anti/pro lisbon side of things would crop up again with people laughing saying "we told ye so".
Point is its got nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty.
Well, I for one thing that this is an excellent idea. It would ensure idiots like us who vote in cowboys like Fianna Fail arent punishing the rest of the EU down the line when the money they've pumped into us as a country has been squandered.
This is a good thing for the whole of Europe, and at least ensures some level of checks and balances are applied to our spending and borrowing.
We borrow most of our money from EU institutions, I think they have a right to make a call as to where we spend it in case it gets pumped into unsustainable "industries" like housing.
Kenny is making an ass of himself over this.

I know its only a small fish at the moment but it will probably gain legs if that euro super bailout scheme every gets called on by more than just Greece.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

It wasn't as a result of Lisbon.

thats not what you implied earlier in thread (your OP for one)

on several occasions

make up your mind

dlofnep

I didn't imply it at all, actually. Perhaps if you didn't jump to conclusions, it would serve you better.

The reason that I pointed out the Lisbon Treaty because it's the most recent discussion on the EU - where Enda Kenny and his followers ridiculed the idea of our sovereignty being reduced. I think it's a very valid point to now bring it up, when Enda himself makes a statement on the very same issue, regarding that very same sovereignty.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

It doesn't directly - I was making the point that those who protested that sovereignty was being handed to Brussels, were ridiculed. Now those same people who have ridiculed them express concerns with our sovereignty.

We always said we were concerned with Irish sovereignty, but that Lisbon wasn't the massive giveaway of sovereignty the No side claimed it was. The No side claimed that the only reason we couldn't see that was because we were blind to Irish sovereignty, or careless of it - and now you've discovered that we weren't and aren't.

It's a real comment on the actual usefulness and credibility of the No side in the EU debate that it's a prominent member of the Yes side pointing this out.

regards,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

We always said we were concerned with Irish sovereignty

Where?

Sulmac

I think the proposal is an excellent idea, I'm actually a bit surprised that it isn't the case already in the Eurozone member states.

If only we had such a system from the outset, we wouldn't have to bail out Greece now.

Worth it, I say.

Permabear

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Pride Fighter

dlofnep wrote: »

Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

Discuss.

Not only that the current proposals are coming from the European Commission, which is dominated by the EPP-ED group of which Fine Gael is a member. It seems to be cynical on their part to oppose their European allies idea that national budgets should be under European scrutiny.

Maybe Fine Gael are leaving the EPP and joining their natural bedfellows the British Conservative's new group the European Conservatives and Reformists. I'm sure many Thatcherites in Fine Gael will be delighted with that.

kippy

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats a fair point, however deficits weren't actually running THAT high in the "good times". I believe most if not all countries were within the limits set by membership (Apart from the plain to see now fiddled greek books)
The issues where with where the money at the time was being spent. Unsustainable wages/industries etc........

ei.sdraob

kippy wrote: »

Thats a fair point, however deficits weren't actually running THAT high in the "good times". I believe most if not all countries were within the limits set by membership (Apart from the plain to see now fiddled greek books)
The issues where with where the money at the time was being spent. Unsustainable wages/industries etc........

and of course nothing was put away for a "bad day"

hell for Keynesian policies to work like public works/stimuli programmes, Keynes himself said you need to save during booms...

but we pissed it all away on "benchmarking" and blowing into an asset bubble

greendom

If national sovereignty leads to the mess we have currently in Greece, Spain Portugal et al then perhaps its suppression isn't such a bad thing.

kippy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and of course nothing was put away for a "bad day"

hell for Keynesian policies to work like public works/stimuli programmes, Keynes himself said you need to save during booms...

but we pissed it all away on "benchmarking" and blowing into an asset bubble

What do mean we didnt save - we had those SSIA thingys......(sarcasm)

loldog

What Barroso suggests makes a lot of sense and it's simply a way of trying to ensure that member states keep the promises they made when they joined the Euro.

Not really an issue of sovereignty - if you define sovereignty as the ability to make economic decisions at local level, some of those powers were surrendered when we joined the euro.

.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you'll find it's a little more than a slap on the wrist.

You know what I meant :rolleyes:.

I was dumbing it down for people who were obviously having difficulty understanding what would actually happen. It is nothing more than a timing and oversight issue. From anything I have read on the proposal so far it would give Brussels no more power over budgetary discretion, nor any more powers of sanction than it already has. So where is the loss of sovereignty?

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

You know what I meant :rolleyes:.

Actually, no I didn't. You stated it wasn't an issue of sovereignty. It unequivocally is.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

Actually, no I didn't. You stated it wasn't an issue of sovereignty. It unequivocally is.

How so? Please explain what element of our sovereignty is being surrendered under the proposal?

Eliot Rosewater

dlofnep, you have to make an argument as to why this encroachment upon Ireland's sovereignty is bad (it clearly is an encroachment, by the way).


I fully support this move by the EU. In fact, the single greatest reason I am for the EU is that they put such restraints on the gombeen man government of Ireland.

RandomName2

dlofnep wrote: »

Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

Discuss.

Buzz buzz. And people will say that this isn't a federalist move. Way too late, not much to do with Lisbon, and I'm sure that anything Kenny had to say on the matter would be just the typical opposition backbiting whilst in reality cow-towing to the Brussels' line.

Not that the politicians didn't make a lousy job of fiscal deficit, financial regulation (lending and construction) and market stability. They did. They have a solution people: cede national political control to supranational political control (if you can't trust our politicians - sure you can trust the ones we had no hand act or part in electing).

Apparently the majority of Greeks and Germans are opposed to a bailout of Greece. Don't know exactly why the Greeks are opposed to it (a bit daft) and the Germans should have thought about that before throwing away democratic principle. Either way neither lot have any say on the issue, other than rioting and burning down banks. The dangerous eijets. Just as well the Greeks and Germans don't have any power - I don't exactly want the euro any weaker than it already is. We're all tied together now for better, or worse. Forever.

Permabear

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Pride Fighter

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

dlofnep, you have to make an argument as to why this encroachment upon Ireland's sovereignty is bad (it clearly is an encroachment, by the way).


I fully support this move by the EU. In fact, the single greatest reason I am for the EU is that they put such restraints of the gombeen man government of Ireland.

I fully agree. Another set of checks and balances is necessary on several nations in the EU with ourselves being one of them.

Eliot Rosewater

RandomName2 wrote: »

Either way neither lot have no say on the issue

A Freudian double negative?

RandomName2

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

dlofnep, you have to make an argument as to why this encroachment upon Ireland's sovereignty is bad (it clearly is an encroachment, by the way).


I fully support this move by the EU. In fact, the single greatest reason I am for the EU is that they put such restraints on the gombeen man government of Ireland.

Can't wait for the Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Austrian, Latvian, Romanian, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Greek (and hopefully Icelandic in the near future) governments having a say in our budgets in the future. Not a gombeen in sight and a paradigm of sound economic policy one and all!