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EU proposals equate to "handing over of sovereignty of the State" - Enda Kenny

  • 12-05-2010 01:31PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭


    Kenny condems EU debt proposals

    EU Commission proposals to compel euro states to seek pre-approval from Brussels for the amount of borrowing in their annual budgets were tantamount “to handing over sovereignty for the running of the economy” to the EU, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has said.

    The Commission’s plan to tighten budgetary surveillance across euro zone states would allow for the Government’s “budgetary orientations” to be reviewed by the 15 other euro states before they are unveiled in the Dáil.

    The measures are designed to compel euro members to cut their debt and avoid any repeat of the Greek debt crisis.

    Mr Kenny said the proposals would amount to the handing over of sovereignty of the State and the running of Irish affairs “to peer groups, depending on their political whim, in the EU council of ministers”.

    Full Article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0512/breaking36.html

    Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

    Discuss.


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Comments

  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

    Discuss.

    Wow, you mean we won't be able to spend money we don't have like absolute lunatics? Shocking stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    Wow, you mean we won't be able to spend money we don't have like absolute lunatics? Shocking stuff.

    You mean like NAMA?


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You mean like NAMA?

    No, I'm talking about our current massive deficit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign...
    Discuss.

    Simply a measure to ensure some governments don't go spending money they don't have and then come crying to Europe looking for a bailout. If it helps nip a situation like Greece in the bud then what's the problem? Nothing to do with our sovereignty

    http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations-a-states/political-integration-and-national-sovereignty-3-22/48955.html

    It's not even a Commission proposal, rather a Commissioner proposal. It hasn't even been discussed at any serious level.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    So when we get upset about budget measures do we have to fly to Brussels to protest? Oh hang on we dont do much of that....

    Ive also got a bunch of art at home, I think Im paying too much tax, so who do I give the brown envelope to ?

    Its getting very confusing now :-(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    This post has been deleted.

    You know very well that Enda and his party and pro-EU. Therefore, for him to get up and make these comments - surely must turn heads. He is correct - Our sovereignty is in the heads of the EU. Do you disagree with his analysis of our sovereignty on this issue resting in Brussels?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    Fine Gael - a party filled with too many Euro snobs, who were just as guilty as FF and others of smearing and labelling NO supporters/voters as being something only short of fully blown Nazis/facists/choose description.

    Too late indeed!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    So let me get this straight, when we joined the EURO we, and all the other countries, agreed to keep our budget deficits under 3% of GDP

    Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't our current deficit in the region of 14%?? We are way way way over where the rules (which were there when we joined) state we should be. And whats more it might be acceptable if it was only for 1 year but we were over it last year, this year, and probably for the forseeable future. so too right Europe is entitled to be annoyed with us and the Greeks etc We are taking the Germans for a ride because we're afraid to take the really tough decisions and cut the expenditure dramatically

    There is no sovergn issue here, just an issue of getting our finance in order and if that needs to come from the Germans because we'd rather storm the dail to complain about nothing then so be it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    There is no sovergn issue here, just an issue of getting our finance in order and if that needs to come from the Germans because we'd rather storm the dail to complain about nothing then so be it

    Actually, there is. Not having the ability to control our own budget is a quite clearly sovereignty issue. Whether you see benefits or drawbacks in other states keeping us in check, is separate issue altogether.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭NOGMaxpower


    EH everyone voted Yes to these changes.

    Good riddence to bad governance in Ireland hello success in EU.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Actually, there is. Not having the ability to control our own budget is a quite clearly sovereignty issue. Whether you see benefits or drawbacks in other states keeping us in check, is separate issue altogether.

    But what exactly does it have to do with the Lisbon Treaty given that we have been using the Euro for over 10 years?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Would this not constitute a transfer of sovereignty to the EU and mean that we would have to have another referendum on it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Actually, there is. Not having the ability to control our own budget is a quite clearly sovereignty issue. Whether you see benefits or drawbacks in other states keeping us in check, is separate issue altogether.

    So we sign up to agree to certain rules

    We fail miserably and break these rules in quite a big way

    Europe who is going to be the guys bailing us out when it goes tits up are saying right we want to see your plans to get back to not breaking the rules because us breaking the rules is causing serious pressure on not only Ireland but the whole EURO area

    I think they are dead right to be honest


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Byron85


    You know what, the average person needs to be told what to do as simply put, they're idiots. Idiots elect idiots to represent them so if the EU wants to step in to Govern the country in some way, then let them at it. To paraphrase a friend of mine, the Irish people are an evolutionary cul-de-sac.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    But what exactly does it have to do with the Lisbon Treaty given that we have been using the Euro for over 10 years?

    It doesn't directly - I was making the point that those who protested that sovereignty was being handed to Brussels, were ridiculed. Now those same people who have ridiculed them express concerns with our sovereignty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    So we sign up to agree to certain rules

    We fail miserably and break these rules in quite a big way

    Europe who is going to be the guys bailing us out when it goes tits up are saying right we want to see your plans to get back to not breaking the rules because us breaking the rules is causing serious pressure on not only Ireland but the whole EURO area

    I think they are dead right to be honest

    You've missed the point. I didn't ask if you saw benefits in it. I asked if it was an infringement on our sovereignty. It clearly is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You've missed the point. I didn't ask if you saw benefits in it. I asked if it was an infringement on our sovereignty. It clearly is.

    It clearly isn't. We would not be handing over control of our budget. We would be allowing the review of our budget in Brussels. After that review the minister could come back and deliver any budget he liked. He is not getting a draft budget written for him. Obviously if it breaches the limits we already agree to ( and pooled our sovereignty in ) then there would be a slap on the wrist just the same way as now tbh. There's nothing new here.

    As it stands...

    Minister gives a bad budget - slap on the wrist from Europe.
    Minister gives a good budget - hugs and kisses

    Under Olli Rehn's proposal...

    EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with bad budget - slap on the wrist.

    EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with good budget - hugs and kisses.

    The proposal is just giving the EU a bit more warning about what effect the budget we have prepared will have. Then they can keep schtum or warn minister that if he goes ahead with his proposed budget and they do not think it will help Ireland meet the limits we have already agreed to there will be consquences.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You've missed the point. I didn't ask if you saw benefits in it. I asked if it was an infringement on our sovereignty. It clearly is.

    Ah I see. I'm only young so I'm a little ignorant of the details of European treaties that have gone before Nice, but was the 3% budget deficit limit not set out in the Maastricht Treaty? I always found it crazy the way the some people were oppossed to Lisbon because of concerns over sovereignity but are actually in favour of the common currency.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    If tighter regulation (pooled sovereignty) can help us keep our borrowing in check, and help other nations do the same, then I'm all for it. We can't have a shared currency and no shared oversight. We've tried trusting the individual states to keep things in order, and so far only two are doing so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭sirromo


    I can't see what the problem is. This is no different from a man seeking the approval of his wife or his employer on how he spends his weekly wages.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    I think the day we bailed out Anglo, we gave the EU the right to investigate our spending whatever way they want. If it improves our situation, then bring it on. We can't regulate ourselves - we've made that much obvious. Time for someone else to step in so, especially if we're spending someone else's money.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    prinz wrote: »
    It clearly isn't. We would not be handing over control of our budget. We would be allowing the review of our budget in Brussels. After that review the minister could come back and deliver any budget he liked. He is not getting a draft budget written for him. Obviously if it breaches the limits we already agree to ( and pooled our sovereignty in ) then there would be a slap on the wrist just the same way as now tbh. There's nothing new here.

    As it stands...

    Minister gives a bad budget - slap on the wrist from Europe.
    Minister gives a good budget - hugs and kisses

    Under Olli Rehn's proposal...

    EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with bad budget - slap on the wrist.

    EU has a look and advises on budget, Minister goes ahead with good budget - hugs and kisses.

    The proposal is just giving the EU a bit more warning about what effect the budget we have prepared will have. Then they can keep schtum or warn minister that if he goes ahead with his proposed budget and they do not think it will help Ireland meet the limits we have already agreed to there will be consquences.

    I think you'll find it's a little more than a slap on the wrist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    sirromo wrote: »
    I can't see what the problem is. This is no different from a man seeking the approval of his wife or his employer on how he spends his weekly wages.

    What - When does anyone ever have to seek the approval of his employer for how he spends his wages? What a terrible analogy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Day late, a dollar short for Enda Kenny. Those who opposed Lisbon warned that our affairs would be controlled by Brussels. Issues surrounding our sovereignty were ridiculed during the Lisbon campaign - But even now, Fine Gael (one of the major campaigners for the Lisbon Treaty) are asking questions.

    Discuss.

    If this was as a result of Lisbon, why does it have to be discussed and passed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Stekelly wrote: »
    If this was as a result of Lisbon, why does it have to be discussed and passed?

    It wasn't as a result of Lisbon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭sirromo


    dlofnep wrote:
    What - When does anyone ever have to seek the approval of his employer for how he spends his wages? What a terrible analogy.

    I didn't say they do have to seek the approval of their employers. I just think it would be like people having to seek the approval of their employers.

    Individuals should not be free to spend their way into debt. We need to think of the consequences of our actions on the wider society and so we should be prepared to allow the wider society to have a greater say in how we spend our money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,378 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I knew fecking well when I spotted this "story" today that the anti/pro lisbon side of things would crop up again with people laughing saying "we told ye so".
    Point is its got nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty.
    Well, I for one thing that this is an excellent idea. It would ensure idiots like us who vote in cowboys like Fianna Fail arent punishing the rest of the EU down the line when the money they've pumped into us as a country has been squandered.
    This is a good thing for the whole of Europe, and at least ensures some level of checks and balances are applied to our spending and borrowing.
    We borrow most of our money from EU institutions, I think they have a right to make a call as to where we spend it in case it gets pumped into unsustainable "industries" like housing.
    Kenny is making an ass of himself over this.

    I know its only a small fish at the moment but it will probably gain legs if that euro super bailout scheme every gets called on by more than just Greece.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It wasn't as a result of Lisbon.

    thats not what you implied earlier in thread (your OP for one)

    on several occasions

    make up your mind


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