appealing clamping

Slaacer

Hi,

Pretty sure I'm not the first one with this query. My wife was parked in a NCPS car park (coolmine train station) and as every morning she got the ticket and put in on the dashboard - passager side behind the insurance/tax/nct disks. when she got back to the car on the evening the car was clamped and she called them (NCPS) they claimed it was due to failing to display a valid ticket.

She got clamped for failing to show a valid ticket. She purchased the ticket that morning at 7:34 and displayed it on the dashboard but their pictures don't show it -of course !!! anyway after appealing the case through webappeal they rejected it saying the ticket is not valid until displayed and their operative could not see any ticket and the onus is on the user to clearly display the ticket.

I don't mind being fined if she hadn't paid but in this case she paid, displayed and still got fined. We have the ticket to prove she paid but then on the display it's their say and picture not showing the ticket off course against our say. Do we have any case ???

And they say to go further we can appeal this decision to the Independent Parking appeal services. Who are they ?

PCPhoto

just contact a solicitor and go through the courts - hit them where it hurts - financially !!

(the stress...hassle of doing it all - should count for some compensation)

TouchingVirus

Slaacer wrote: »

Hi,

Pretty sure I'm not the first one with this query. My wife was parked in a NCPS car park (coolmine train station) and as every morning she got the ticket and put in on the dashboard - passager side behind the insurance/tax/nct disks. when she got back to the car on the evening the car was clamped and she called them (NCPS) they claimed it was due to failing to display a valid ticket.

She got clamped for failing to show a valid ticket. She purchased the ticket that morning at 7:34 and displayed it on the dashboard but their pictures don't show it -of course !!! anyway after appealing the case through webappeal they rejected it saying the ticket is not valid until displayed and their operative could not see any ticket and the onus is on the user to clearly display the ticket.

I don't mind being fined if she hadn't paid but in this case she paid, displayed and still got fined. We have the ticket to prove she paid but then on the display it's their say and picture not showing the ticket off course against our say. Do we have any case ???

And they say to go further we can appeal this decision to the Independent Parking appeal services. Who are they ?

Did the ticket fall off the dashboard or?

Diddler1977

Slaacer wrote: »

Hi,

Pretty sure I'm not the first one with this query. My wife was parked in a NCPS car park (coolmine train station) and as every morning she got the ticket and put in on the dashboard - passager side behind the insurance/tax/nct disks. when she got back to the car on the evening the car was clamped and she called them (NCPS) they claimed it was due to failing to display a valid ticket.

She got clamped for failing to show a valid ticket. She purchased the ticket that morning at 7:34 and displayed it on the dashboard but their pictures don't show it -of course !!! anyway after appealing the case through webappeal they rejected it saying the ticket is not valid until displayed and their operative could not see any ticket and the onus is on the user to clearly display the ticket.

I don't mind being fined if she hadn't paid but in this case she paid, displayed and still got fined. We have the ticket to prove she paid but then on the display it's their say and picture not showing the ticket off course against our say. Do we have any case ???

And they say to go further we can appeal this decision to the Independent Parking appeal services. Who are they ?

How could it be seen from the front of the window when it was positioned behind the discs?

The ticket would need to be visible.

tommy21

PCPhoto wrote: »

just contact a solicitor and go through the courts - hit them where it hurts - financially !!

(the stress...hassle of doing it all - should count for some compensation)

That's ridiculous, the solicitor fees will cost much more than the ticket anyway.

tommy21

Slaacer wrote: »

Hi,

Pretty sure I'm not the first one with this query. My wife was parked in a NCPS car park (coolmine train station) and as every morning she got the ticket and put in on the dashboard - passager side behind the insurance/tax/nct disks. when she got back to the car on the evening the car was clamped and she called them (NCPS) they claimed it was due to failing to display a valid ticket.

She got clamped for failing to show a valid ticket. She purchased the ticket that morning at 7:34 and displayed it on the dashboard but their pictures don't show it -of course !!! anyway after appealing the case through webappeal they rejected it saying the ticket is not valid until displayed and their operative could not see any ticket and the onus is on the user to clearly display the ticket.

I don't mind being fined if she hadn't paid but in this case she paid, displayed and still got fined. We have the ticket to prove she paid but then on the display it's their say and picture not showing the ticket off course against our say. Do we have any case ???

And they say to go further we can appeal this decision to the Independent Parking appeal services. Who are they ?

Is this a private or public car park? If private, then this is a grey area in terms of you having to pay. Someone else on boards.ie had a similar query a while back, can't find the thread. More info here though: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

dudara

They have a picture of the car, and the ticket isn't visible in the photo - correct?

The rules state that a ticket has to be clearly visible - does your wife remember where she positioned the ticket, or if it got knocked to the floor etc?

Paulw

tommy21 wrote: »

Is this a private or public car park? If private, then this is a grey area in terms of you having to pay.

The fee was already paid, and they're trying to get the money back.

The issue is pay and display. If the parking ticket is not visible, then you've no chance of getting a refund.

Slaacer

My wife is pregnant and only got back to the car on the evening so didn't exactly remembers but told me she left the ticket on the dashboard where she normally leaves it on the passenger side behind the disks...

Slaacer

am I right to say that pictures have no legal "power" - in that they can't be used for evidence as they can easily be modified ?

normally leave the ticket there when the passenger door is the closed door to open when coming back from the ticket machine or otherwise she leaves it on the driver side...

The problem here is that they say we didn't display - we say we did. We have the ticket to prove she bought it. But is a picture enough evidence to say the ticket wasn't shown ?

in this parking you don't pay per hour but for the day as the parking is to "help" users get the train. so if you don't pay you leave yourself wide open. She used the car park every day and did nothing different that day.

RangeR

Slaacer wrote: »

but their pictures don't show it -of course !!!

Ask for this picture. It will tell you who is right or wrong.

Ticktactoe

Was there only one picture taken or was there more than one and from different angles? Basically, if he tried would he have been able to see it?

gerardduff

Slaacer wrote: »

The problem here is that they say we didn't display - we say we did.

Call the cops! The NCPS guy should be arrested for interfering with your property.

I'm all for clamping if it is done to stop illegal parking. Clamping has definitely sorted out a lot of the idiot parking you used to see around town. Now these NCPS guys are running out of targets so they clamp everyone. I've heard so many stories in seems no car is safe. "Promoting sensible parking my ar$e!"

jor el

Slaacer wrote: »

The problem here is that they say we didn't display - we say we did. We have the ticket to prove she bought it. But is a picture enough evidence to say the ticket wasn't shown ?

If they have a photo showing that the ticket was not visible, do you have one showing that it is? Get a copy of their photo and see for yourself anyway. If the ticket is not visible, then the clamping was legit. It's all about what you can prove. If you have no proof that the ticket was displayed, then you loose.

If it comes down to taking further action, then the Small Claims court may be an option, though I'm not sure you can actually use that in a case like this. No solicitor needed for that.

gerardduff wrote: »

Call the cops! The NCPS guy should be arrested for interfering with your property.

A ridiculous suggestion. Don't waste Garda time with something that is nothing to do with them.

Atlantic Dawn

Slaacer wrote: »

am I right to say that pictures have no legal "power" - in that they can't be used for evidence as they can easily be modified ?

NCPS have no legal power in Ireland to interfere with any vehicle and place a clamp on it, what they do have is vans with drivers that clamp cars in areas where landowners have given them permission to control parking. Private clamping in Ireland is unregulated and you are simply paying to have the clamp removed with no legal basis for it to be placed there in the first place, it's similar to extortion. Clamping businesses are unlicensed and a Class 1 criminal could setup a clamping company in the morning and extort any level of cash from a clamp they wish (I'm not implying that NCPS was setup by a Class 1 criminal). Clamping companies should fall under the licencing of the PSA.

An "appeal" is a waste of time as there's no independantly verifiable appeals process.

tommy21

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

NCPS have no legal power in Ireland to interfere with any vehicle and place a clamp on it, what they do have is vans with drivers that clamp cars in areas where landowners have given them permission to control parking. Private clamping in Ireland is unregulated and you are simply paying to have the clamp removed with no legal basis for it to be placed there in the first place, it's similar to extortion. Clamping businesses are unlicensed and a Class 1 criminal could setup a clamping company in the morning and extort any level of cash from a clamp they wish (I'm not implying that NCPS was setup by a Class 1 criminal). Clamping companies should fall under the licencing of the PSA.

An "appeal" is a waste of time as there's no independantly verifiable appeals process.

If this is the case could the OP not theoretically sue for damage/interfering with their property?

Paulw

tommy21 wrote: »

If this is the case could the OP not theoretically sue for damage/interfering with their property?

Yes, in theory. But, it would require a civil case, and you'd need to have money and a good solicitor. No one has yet taken such a case.

tommy21

Paulw wrote: »

Yes, in theory. But, it would require a civil case, and you'd need to have money and a good solicitor. No one has yet taken such a case.

Let's float the OP and as a consortium be the first to do so.

1) Tommy21 - 10€

cormie

jor el wrote: »

If they have a photo showing that the ticket was not visible, do you have one showing that it is? Get a copy of their photo and see for yourself anyway. If the ticket is not visible, then the clamping was legit. It's all about what you can prove. If you have no proof that the ticket was displayed, then you loose.

If it comes down to taking further action, then the Small Claims court may be an option, though I'm not sure you can actually use that in a case like this. No solicitor needed for that.



A ridiculous suggestion. Don't waste Garda time with something that is nothing to do with them.

But surely they would need an array of photos, infact, probably thousands, from every possible angle that you can look into the car to ensure they definitely could not see it. Slaacer has proof in that he has a ticket. They've probably snapped about 4 or 5 photos..

gerardduff

tommy21 wrote: »

Let's float the OP and as a consortium be the first to do so.

1) Tommy21 - 10€

2) gerardduff-80€

niallon

NCPS kindly took €90 from me for a clamp removal...outside my own house! Of course I wouldn't have dared pay the fee but for the fact that I was under severe pressure at the time. I was moving stuff out of my house under a deadline and instead of parking in the driveway I parked out towards the footpath which is permit parking only. I, honestly, got out of the car, opened the boot, walked in and grabbed the first lot and came out to find captain w**ker clamping the car. I was straight over to him showing the open door on the house, my keys etc. protesting that I was living in the house I was parked outside but he was having none of it, just kept pointing to the careline number on the form he had stuck to my windscreen (staining it in the process).

I rang the number and was told that I should have appealed to the clamper there and then and something could have been done!!! I begrudgingly paid over the money, €30 extra if you pay cash too!, and proceeded to lodge my appeal. I was informed in the reply to my appeal that there is no evidence of me loading my car (there is actually one photo El W**ker took that shows me standing beside the car on the phone to the careline!!). I informed them that I thought it wise to close and lock up my car whilst a strange man walked around it taking pictures. They recommended me to this other crowd who charge €50 for the appeal, I told them to shove it and that I wouldn't give up my appeal with them, at which point they removed my case file from their website.

Basically what I'm trying to say is court is the only option, these bloodless hounds won't give you a single minute to plead your case.

BnB

I know it is too late now, but the only way to appeal a clamping by a private clamping company is with an angle grinder. It is the only language they speak.

Cabaal

Diddler1977 wrote: »

How could it be seen from the front of the window when it was positioned behind the discs?

The ticket would need to be visible.

Agreed putting the ticket behind the tax, insurance and NCT discs doesn't seem like a very visable place to put it, surely given the driver is putting the ticket in their car it would make sense to put it on the dashboard at the drivers side

Cabaal

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

NCPS have no legal power in Ireland to interfere with any vehicle and place a clamp on it, what they do have is vans with drivers that clamp cars in areas where landowners have given them permission to control parking.

See here's the thing, the land owner has given them permission to operate clamps on that land, you are parking on private property and as such are subject to the T&C's of parking on that property.

If you parked in my driveway I could park in front of you and refuse to move my car, legally its my land and there's nothing you can do about it.

If you don't like the risks and T&C's of parking on private property then don't park on it,

Cabaal

BnB wrote: »

I know it is too late now, but the only way to appeal a clamping by a private clamping company is with an angle grinder. It is the only language they speak.

So how is them clamping your car not ok but you destroying their property ok?
Removal of the clamp without damage is the proper way of doing things
:rolleyes:

cormie

Don't forget though that when it's on private property they can't refuse to give you your car back. They must not impede you from taking your property (car/van) back from them if you wish. There's been a good few threads on this before, they can't legally hold your car and must give it back to you on request as far as was established in the other threads

thebiglad

Slaacer wrote: »

The problem here is that they say we didn't display - we say we did. We have the ticket to prove she bought it. But is a picture enough evidence to say the ticket wasn't shown ?
QUOTE]

Playing devil's advocate here but how can you prove the ticket you hold (dated appropriately etc) was purchased for the vehicle which was clamped?

The only way you could win this appeal is to prove that the ticket was appropriately displayed.

RangeR

thebiglad wrote: »

The only way you could win this appeal is to prove that the ticket was appropriately displayed.

By asking for the photo they took. OP, did you request that photo?

Blanchguy

You could try the independent appeals route. As far as I know the independent guy is the same guy who you appeal to if you are clamped by Dublin City Council. He is a reasonable man. You can see the sort of stuff he grants appeals for by searching online.

Blanchguy

cormie wrote: »

Don't forget though that when it's on private property they can't refuse to give you your car back. They must not impede you from taking your property (car/van) back from them if you wish. There's been a good few threads on this before, they can't legally hold your car and must give it back to you on request as far as was established in the other threads

So you are saying that you just need to ring NCPS and say the magic words "I want my car back" and they will be around like a shot to de clamp you? Seems a little too easy....

cormie

As far as I know, and I've read many a topic on this, yes

Blanchguy

Has anyone ever posted on here that it has worked for them? If you are parked on private property and they didn't like your tone presumably they could ask you to leave - you would then be trespassing?

cormie

Nobody on boards in particular as far as I recall but I do think there was a case or two posted from the UK. Now I know that's the UK and this is Ireland, but I think our laws are mostly identical. This is just going by what I've read on this site now

jor el

Blanchguy wrote: »

So you are saying that you just need to ring NCPS and say the magic words "I want my car back" and they will be around like a shot to de clamp you? Seems a little too easy....

I don't think so. They can and will keep refusing until you pay up. The only thing you could do is take legal action, which would involve getting a solicitor and going to court. This would take quite a bit of time, probably months, during which time you would be without your car. It would also cost quite a bit more than the €80 fine.

If on private property, and clamped by a private operator, it has been reported many times that people simply cut the clamp off (using an angle grinder, or hack saw if you have the time). This could result in civil action against you, for damaging the clamper's property (the clamp), but as far as I'm aware it never has.

Del2005

jor el wrote: »

If on private property, and clamped by a private operator, it has been reported many times that people simply cut the clamp off (using an angle grinder, or hack saw if you have the time). This could result in civil action against you, for damaging the clamper's property (the clamp), but as far as I'm aware it never has.

Do your best first to find out if the clamp can be removed without damaging it.

If you get it off without damage the only thing that can be done to you is being barred from the place where you were clamped, if it's damaged there is a chance you can be done for criminal damage.

cormie

You could ring the garda but as far as I'm aware, they don't get involved in many clamping issues, but if it's a case of the clampers not giving you back your property it may be different. Would be best not to waste gardas time with such things though!

Blanchguy

cormie wrote: »

Nobody on boards in particular as far as I recall but I do think there was a case or two posted from the UK. Now I know that's the UK and this is Ireland, but I think our laws are mostly identical. This is just going by what I've read on this site now

Clamping on private land is illegal in Scotland, so there are significant differences in the laws. It amazes me that you just have to ask for your car back and no one has ever reported here that it worked for them.

sickofwaiting

Blanchguy wrote: »

Clamping on private land is illegal in Scotland, so there are significant differences in the laws. It amazes me that you just have to ask for your car back and no one has ever reported here that it worked for them.

Of course it has never worked. I imagine the phrase 'take that ****ing clamp off you prick' is uttered by dozens of Irish people on a daily basis. They will not take it off unless you pay, no matter what your circumstances.

Cabaal

cormie wrote: »

You could ring the garda but as far as I'm aware, they don't get involved in many clamping issues, but if it's a case of the clampers not giving you back your property it may be different. Would be best not to waste gardas time with such things though!

Your right the gardai won't get involved at all, work colleague of mine tried this
Only wastes Gardai time

RubyBlu

PCPhoto wrote: »

just contact a solicitor and go through the courts - hit them where it hurts - financially !!

(the stress...hassle of doing it all - should count for some compensation)

Come on, and get real PCPhoto. Surely you aren't that naive. You obviously have no knowledge of costs associated in getting solicitors to deal with clampers. They are aware of this.

RubyBlu

Why don't we clamp NCPS Vans once they are parked on private property. We can then charge them a fee to remove clamp. We'll just post our charter on the nearest telephone pole. (Should be ok of it's unregulated, right.)

RangeR

RubyBlu wrote: »

Why don't we clamp NCPS Vans once they are parked on private property. We can then charge them a fee to remove clamp. We'll just post our charter on the nearest telephone pole. (Should be ok of it's unregulated, right.)

I know you are joking however just in case someone doesn't realise. We don't have permission to clamp anyone on private property.

RubyBlu

You don't say?

slimjimmc

Cabaal wrote: »

See here's the thing, the land owner has given them permission to operate clamps on that land, you are parking on private property and as such are subject to the T&C's of parking on that property.

If you parked in my driveway I could park in front of you and refuse to move my car, legally its my land and there's nothing you can do about it.

If you don't like the risks and T&C's of parking on private property then don't park on it,

It has been mentioned on previous threads on this very subject that it may be necessary for the car park operator to prove that the driver saw and accepted those Terms and Conditions beforehand. The simple act of parking there doesn't prove acceptance.

sickofwaiting

RangeR wrote: »

I know you are joking however just in case someone doesn't realise. We don't have permission to clamp anyone on private property.

What difference does it make? These clampers are clamping cars without any laws to back them up. If a member of the public decided to 'clamp a clamper' in lieu of payment he/she would have just as much rights to do it as they do.

What law would you be breaking if you clamped a clamper van? None. The only law that would come into play in that situation is criminal damage to property if the clampers broke your clamp while removing it. I would love to see someone stick a clamp on one of these clampers - I have no problem with the county/city council doing it, but these private operators are pure cowboys, they have no legal basis to clamp a car. How has legislation not been brought in to deal with this yet...this crap has been going on for years at this stage.

Atlantic Dawn

No person in this country has ever or will ever be taken to court for damaging or removing a clamp on their car from a private clamping company. It will be thrown out of court as they have no right to interfer with someones property to start with and a person is simply going about their business in removing the clamp.

slowmoe

seems very appropriate for this thread....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZeSzPdilvQ

BnB

Cabaal wrote: »

So how is them clamping your car not ok but you destroying their property ok?
Removal of the clamp without damage is the proper way of doing things
:rolleyes:

Because their property is holding my car hostage...!!!! That's the difference.

Good friends of mine removed clamps twice in a private apartment complex (where they live)

The first time, two cars had been clamped. Not to go into the whole story, but we felt it was very unfair. But the Clamper was being a right pr1ck about it and was horsing up the fee every day. So they cut them off one Sunday night.

Now, that time they were very honest. They just had to cut a chain to get them off. They did that. But they then welded the chain back together again on both clamps and left them back on the grass a week later.

The clamper had their phone number because they had been in negotiations during the week. But after the clamps were cut off, he didn't ring once. Why not...? Because he knew he didn't have a freggin leg to stand on.

Second time, only one car was clamped. The clamper haunted the place watching it. He knew they were going to try and cut it off and he was watching them. Coming home from the pub one night they saw him drive through around 1 am and slow down beside the car to see if the clamp was still there. Eventually, they cut it off of course, but didn't give it back this time. Never heard anything about it.

Of course, the real problem here is that there were so many apartment blocks / estates etc. built with shocking inadequete parking. But that's another discussion altogether.

billybigunz

Should have cut the clamp off. Lesson learned.
Appeal would be a waste of time. Personally what I would do to is go back to car park. Park for free for the day, maybe in a partners car that isn't normally there. Get clamped, make absolute **** of the clamp taking it off with some power tools and leave. Net cost to them should make you feel a bit better.

BoycieIRL

Another pet hate of mine with these NCPS car parks is the lack of functioning meters. Out of the 3 in Hazel hatch two sometimes all 3 are regularly out of service. I am fed up with having to check all vending units to pay for parking which can take 10-15min by the time you get to all 3 and then have to queue as there is only one in operation. Is it right you should have to miss your train because they cant maintain the vending machines properly.

Junge_Frau_2009

Hi slaacer,

I am in a similar circumstance to your wife. I park my car every week at Drogheda train station and buy a weekly ticket religiously. One Friday I arrived to my car only to realise that my car was clamped. My ticket had fallen on the ground. I had to pay 125 euro to get it released even though I had paid and displayed (as I thought).

My appeal has not been successful. I am not settling with this decision and want to bring it further. Can you tell me how it worked out for you both?

Many thanks...
JF