Brain drain, Lack of junior doctors (NCHD), Role of Irish immigration

Chiparus

The strike of 2000 showed how when NCHDs stood up for themselves they would win. We all cancelled our OPDs and elective lists. Admissions were cancelled - the strike would have gone ahead with the full support of all the consultants in my hospital.

The strike was called off because they agreed to our demands.

I dont know why NCHDs pay subs to the IMO, as they agreed to a defacto paycut (loss in overtime eligible hours inc sunday)before the subsequent paycuts.

Senior public servants avoided the budget pay cuts because their pay was already cut- but NCHDs had 2 pay cuts and a pension levy for a pension most will never get.


Why should NCHDs waste money paying subs to the IMO?

TC80

Chiparus wrote: »

The strike of 2000 showed how when NCHDs stood up for themselves they would win. We all cancelled our OPDs and elective lists. Admissions were cancelled - the strike would have gone ahead with the full support of all the consultants in my hospital.

The strike was called off because they agreed to our demands.

I dont know why NCHDs pay subs to the IMO, as they agreed to a defacto paycut (loss in overtime eligible hours inc sunday)before the subsequent paycuts.

Senior public servants avoided the budget pay cuts because their pay was already cut- but NCHDs had 2 pay cuts and a pension levy for a pension most will never get.


Why should NCHDs waste money paying subs to the IMO?

You're completely misleading people again. It is absolutely false to suggest that sunday is no longer eligible for double time. This is not in any settlement. Check it out with the labour court. yes the working day was extended, but you still get overtime once you have worked an average of 39 hours in a week.

The problem is that there is nothing you can put in any document to stop individual hospitals acting the maggot. What happens then is that NCHDs often don't report it to IMO, they just get on with it. The reason that NCHDs should join the IMO is because the IMO will take cases through the relevant mechanism to fight them. There have been numerous individual cases in the last year that go through the painfully slow labour court system and don't get publicised. However there are literally hundreds of examples of people winning their cases and getting back pay. My vision of a medical union is not one that walks off the job at the drop of a hat, like some others do. An alternative vision is fine, it's just that I believe those that put it forward need to get off the fence and try to change it if they believe that strongly in it. Ample opportunities exist to do so.

I think the most salient point you raise is the one about paying subs. The problem with the IMO as I see it is that a lot of people think that you pay your subs and that should be it. I don't see that as how any union or organisation should work. It should be more like a political party where not only do you pay your subs but you are also expected to contribute your time, energy and activism to the group. But perhaps it's understandable that more people don't do this and have the courage of their convictions to take a stand (on an entirely voluntary and unpaid basis) when this makes them, as one poster said earlier "fair game" for anybody with a keyboard, an opinion and a username.

By the way I completely agree with you that its a disgrace that senior civil servants avoided the pay cuts.

Chiparus

Sorry but it was a pay cut - pay has been cut because of the change in the working day. The IMO agreed to it.

Why do you think the HSE wants to introduce these terms to the rest of the health service?

Why do you think NCHDs are leaving??

(It also suits the HSE as it will force the closure of some hospitals.)

The last strike was forced on the IMO- because we had begun to leave the IMO- suddenly they stopped worrying about GPs and began to take NCHDs seriously.

Vorsprung

Caoimhín wrote: »

Wow, that is about the most arrogant thing i have ever read on Boards. Sure, you are entitled to your opinion as much as the next man but i doubt an unemployed carpenter/brick layer/laborer (whos tax may have part funded your education) would agree.

Is it respectful to ask people to work for 72 hours straight, and then when people put down for their overtime, big lines are put through any hours over 48 hours, as happened in Castlebar a couple of years ago?

And save me the taxes line, do you think I haven't been paying taxes since Ive qualified?

TC80

Chiparus wrote: »

Sorry but it was a pay cut - pay has been cut because of the change in the working day. The IMO agreed to it.

If there were NCHDs who were
(a)not reaching an average of 39 hours per week over a pay period
AND
(b) were doing a considerable amount of their non 39 hours between 8 and 9 in the morning and 5 and 9 in the evening

Then yes, they got an inadvertant pay cut by moving to an extended working day, I would however think that it wouldn't be that many of the entire group. Plus the overtime rates were actually increased from T+1/4 to T+1/2 for all overtime, not just that after 54 hours which had previously been the case. You conveniently fail to mention this concession won by the IMO.

Chiparus wrote: »

Why do you think the HSE wants to introduce these terms to the rest of the health service?.

Because it is part of the national health strategy to have extended working hours in hospitals.

Chiparus wrote: »

Why do you think NCHDs are leaving??

Numerous reasons : Poor morale, abysmally funded health service, poor career progression prospects, increasing taxes and levies in this country. I think however that the best way for NCHDs to change this is actually to unite and engage more with their representative body, not less. particularly on number 3 which I think is the biggest challenge of all and the one that motivates me the most, because I love this country and want to settle here eventually after what will hopefully be a brief period of training overseas. Currently the chances of that arent great

Chiparus wrote: »

(It also suits the HSE as it will force the closure of some hospitals.)

You're hitting the nail on the head there. Expect pronouncements from the HSE about how they are having to close regional district hospitals because those awful, ungrateful NCHDs are emigrating.

Chiparus wrote: »

The last strike was forced on the IMO- because we had begun to leave the IMO- suddenly they stopped worrying about GPs and began to take NCHDs seriously.

Again a strike did not actually proceed, and I really dont think you can compare the climate for calling a strike in 1999 to 2010. We all know it's a very different country now.

These are my opinions. I accept they are in a minority here, but I'm willing to stand by them.

Chiparus

The HSE wants to introduce the longer working week to save on overtime with nurses and allied health workers - that is why they are fighting it.

They already have saved money on this - especially on those NCHDs that are ETWD compliant- shift workers such as A&E NCHDs.

BTW are A&E NCHDs still entitled to the 1/6th loading?

TC80

Chiparus wrote: »

The HSE wants to introduce the longer working week to save on overtime with nurses and allied health workers - that is why they are fighting it.

They already have saved money on this - especially on those NCHDs that are ETWD compliant- shift workers such as A&E NCHDs.

BTW are A&E NCHDs still entitled to the 1/6th loading?

I think A&E people generally get a pretty raw deal in general. I'm not aware that any previous premia they got have been taken away but I couldn't be certain on that.

I think a lot of the problems about abn extended working day is that as a country we are coming from a paradigm where in the good times the unions would have been given a pay rise to shift working patterns to one where things are financially tighter and the tide of public opinion has swung. A lot of the extended working day in the health service stuff is actually covered in the croke park agreement so it looks like a lot will depend on the eventual outcome of that.

TC80

Caoimhín wrote: »

Wow, that is about the most arrogant thing i have ever read on Boards. Sure, you are entitled to your opinion as much as the next man but i doubt an unemployed carpenter/brick layer/laborer (whos tax may have part funded your education) would agree.

Why is it arrogant for him to expect a respectful relationship between employer and employee?

Chiparus

TC80 wrote: »

I think A&E people generally get a pretty raw deal in general. I'm not aware that any previous premia they got have been taken away but I couldn't be certain on that.

I think a lot of the problems about abn extended working day is that as a country we are coming from a paradigm where in the good times the unions would have been given a pay rise to shift working patterns to one where things are financially tighter and the tide of public opinion has swung. A lot of the extended working day in the health service stuff is actually covered in the croke park agreement so it looks like a lot will depend on the eventual outcome of that.

The comercial semistate recieves similar T&C as public service. The government tried to introduce similar pay cuts and were quickly told where to go . NCHDs voted for industrial action in 08 but leadrship let them down. Now there is little reason to stay here especially those in service jobs so they are leaving.

TC80

Chiparus wrote: »

The comercial semistate recieves similar T&C as public service. The government tried to introduce similar pay cuts and were quickly told where to go . NCHDs voted for industrial action in 08 but leadrship let them down. Now there is little reason to stay here especially those in service jobs so they are leaving.

Ah here, the commercial semistate is a completely different kettle of fish. The govt is only a stakeholder in this. It is the sole owner and funder of the public health service.

I am firmly of the belief that most of the fall off in take home pay is down to pension and income levies and is nothing to do with the new contract. I also think that pay is by far not the most important thing driving NCHDs overseas. AFAIK pay in USA and Australia is not significantly better and worse in many areas. People go abroad for lifestyle, training and career progression reasons.

I have done my best to highlight these issues which I think will massively impact the standard of care delivered in Irish hospitals, to the point of lobbying a national newspaper to cover it. They eventually did and I did an interview with them. They originally palnned to do a full page feature and asked for quotes from several NCHDs who were leaving, at which point I could find only one of the many departing NCHDs I approached that was willing to be quoted in the newspaper on it. It becomes hard at that point to convince people of influence in the media that there is a flood of people going. I also know for a fact that many of those who said No were fully paid up members of the "The IMO needs to get more in the media" Brigade. Go figure.

My view is that those who choose to stay should get on board with the IMO and fight for these things. You can either stand up and be counted or be like some of the other posters on here and whinge about those who do.

Chiparus

TC80 wrote: »

It is the sole owner and funder of the public health service.

Who do you think owns esb?
I suppose VHI ,Quinn and Aviva pay nothing then.

It tried to impose the pay cuts on the public semistate and then faced with workers and unions who did not care about public opinion they dropped it like a hot potato.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1214/1224260655491.html


then a day later

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ministers-back-off-in-semistate-pay-battle-1975096.html

No pension levy no pay cut - a pay rise instead.

TC80

Chiparus wrote: »

It tried to impose the pay cuts on the public semistate and then faced with workers and unions who did not care about public opinion they dropped it like a hot potato.

Thats an oxymoron. You are talking about for profit entities that the state is a major shareholder in. As regards the private insurers they purchase some services from the public hospitals and vice versa. Not comparable to ESB, Bord Gais etc in my opinion.

The pension levy and PS paycuts are hardly an IMO or NCHD centric issue but maybe the entire trade union movement needs to think about it. There are some pretty harsh economic realities out there at present though, galling as it is to see billions of borrowed money thrown into propping up banks.

Chiparus

TC80 wrote: »

Thats an oxymoron. You are talking about for profit entities that the state is a major shareholder in. As regards the private insurers they purchase some services from the public hospitals and vice versa. Not comparable to ESB, Bord Gais etc in my opinion.

The pension levy and PS paycuts are hardly an IMO or NCHD centric issue but maybe the entire trade union movement needs to think about it. There are some pretty harsh economic realities out there at present though, galling as it is to see billions of borrowed money thrown into propping up banks.

They may be for profit but they include highly unprofitable organisations such as Irish rail. The profits are supposed to go to the exchequer - if they had a pension levy and pay cut there would more money for government spending.
The reality is the government sought to introduce a paycut and a pension levy but the unions showed them that Machiavellian addage "it is better to be feared than loved"

Caoimhín

Chiparus wrote: »

Really, thats the most arrogant thing you have read?

Maybe not. I can understand where you are coming from. 8 years studying is a long time, but to say you wont work in Ireland because of the disrespect of an elective representative despite the same electorate having paid your way through med school seems to like a slap to the hard working people who depend on you.

I was under the impression that people entered the medical profession because they had a desire to help people who are ill. Rather than expecting respect from ministers or pay and advancement.

May i put forward the proposition that many of you entered medical school because your parents pushed you into the profession or that you thought you would make lots of money or prestige?

It had fúck all to do with caring about people who were sick.

You will lash at me because i said this, but look into your own hearts lads and ladies...

PS; Its not sour grapes, I have a PhD myself...

docbroc

Wading back in on this:

IMO cares too much about patient safety - my arse. Is this the same IMO that let the Mater staff the hospital with one doctor at night? The same IMO that has cheerfully ignored the practice of untrained doctors drawing up and giving medications despite it resulting in more than one death and huge amounts of morbidity ?

The new contract. It is entirely irrelevant whether we dont get paid 1.25x 1.5x 2x or 10000x for that matter. The point is we are not getting paid it. In terms of hospitals acting the maggot there is a very clear pattern - screw the NCHDs. You dont see nurses getting shafted their overtime or porters or pharmacists or anyone else. This is because of our weak union, plain and simple.

Similarly more study leave is useless if your not allowed take it. The loss of the training grant is no sweat to those on the NCHD committee but believe me if your doing exams its a huge pocket emptying deal. To believe the HSE will provide any education whatsoever beyond the farce that the colleges intermittently throw up is at best obscenely naive .

The labour court is labourisly slow. Indeed. That is why we shouldnt be using it. I for one cant wait several years to get my overtime paid to me. You think other unions fight local disputes through the courts? You know damn well they dont. Local disputes are solved
with local action. Not whining off to the labour court every time medical admin decide your not worth paying.

As for striking ? Nuclear option. Not needed! We do ten thousand and one things a day that are not our job. Many moons ago a half dead haematology SHO working 80 hours a week was hauled in at the weekends to take bloods because the haematology nurses were afraid of central lines. 7 years later and whats happening ? Exactly the same. Except the SHO in question is not doing "overtime" anymore. Thanks to the IMOs collusion with the HSE your destroyed weekend is "study time". Studying how to do the phlebotomists job for them.....

I know the IMO wanted to protect salaries by such a classification, wanting to avoid a situation where the EWTD was used as an excuse to not pay more than 48 hours. But you deal with the devil look what happens!

A good starting point is to hit these extraneous jobs. Make an announcement that no NCHD will give iv medications unless they are trained to do so. Say on x day this will stop. Its dangerous and inefficient. I guarantee the total support of everyone I know. If we win - patient safety improves, we remove a ridiculous practice and we save time, so we can actually get home once and a while. Even if we lose we will at least be the flea that hiccuped. We couldnt possibly sink any lower in the HSE's eyes.

And finally let me convey something that has become abundantly apparent as my "training" draws to a close. We have no future in Ireland. So much toadying, kow-towing, kissing ass. For what ? Come July I am unemployed. My options ? Leave the country (likely never to return) or take some piddling 10,000 a year research grant. The IMO comittee need to recognise one important fact. YOU WILL NEVER BECOME CONSULTANTS. Prove me wrong, fine but there is an 80% plus chance i will be right. Dont destroy your lives struggling and hoping and waiting for something that will never happen. So many are willing to put up with Dickensian conditions for the sake of a glorious consultant afterlife that just wont happen. We need to sort out the horrible working situation in Ireland that drives so many of our best and brightest out. We need to focus on the years we spend as NCHDs because chances are they will be our only years.

Caoimhín

docbroc wrote: »

Wading back in on this:

IMO cares too much about patient safety - my arse. .

You have a valid point, however my proposition remains that many doctors entered the profession for esteem, pay, respect, and a degree of power.. Rather than a genuine care of ill people.
This comes from a long experience of doctors in hospital practice rather than GP's.

In my humble opinion, you were funded by the tax payer to study and be educated and yet you feel entitled to leave to leave the country for better conditions and ultimately the opportunity to earn more money.

Shame on you.

SleepDoc

Caoimhín;65958691]Maybe not. I can understand where you are coming from. 8 years studying is a long time, but to say you wont work in Ireland because of the disrespect of an elective representative despite the same electorate having paid your way through med school seems to like a slap to the hard working people who depend on you.[/B]

I paid my own may through medical school.

I was under the impression that people entered the medical profession because they had a desire to help people who are ill. Rather than expecting respect from ministers or pay and advancement.

There are easier ways to make money than medicine. Most medical practitioners are conscientious and hardworking. But we are not chumps. We don't like being taken advantage of. I expect good pay AND advancement.


May i put forward the proposition that many of you entered medical school because your parents pushed you into the profession or that you thought you would make lots of money or prestige?

I think most parents encourage their children to do their best and study what they are interested in. And what exactly is wrong with money and prestige?

It had fúck all to do with caring about people who were sick.

That may well be the case initially but so what? To do the job you have to look after the sick.

You will lash at me because i said this, but look into your own hearts lads and ladies...

Deep.

PS; Its not sour grapes, I have a PhD myself

How does that not make it sour grapes?

Vorsprung

Caoimhín wrote: »

In my humble opinion, you were funded by the tax payer to study and be educated and yet you feel entitled to leave to leave the country for better conditions and ultimately the opportunity to earn more money.

Shame on you.

How many consultants in Ireland do you think have done all of their training without having had to leave the country? I'd happily wager that there are in fact none. Not one. And I am earning a lot less abroad than I would be at home, and this is the case among most doctors who work abroad. And I'm quite happy with the way things are panning out at the moment.

And yes I do feel entitled to leave the country if I should so think I need to, for further training or otherwise. In fact, every single person in the country has had the majority of their education funded by the taxpayer. Do you think every engineer, nurse, tradesman (who would have been funded by the taxpayer via FAS) who has left the country should be hanging his or her head in shame? Or is it just doctors?

Caoimh&#237 wrote: »

May i put forward the proposition that many of you entered medical school because your parents pushed you into the profession or that you thought you would make lots of money or prestige?

Nope, I did it because I wanted to work with people and be involved with science. I enjoy my job just fine. There are no doctors in my family and no-one pushed me in. The same goes for the vast majority of my friends, and for a lot of doctors who post here, having read their replies on similar topics on the past. Perhaps we could keep the sweeping and seemingly uninformed generalisations to a minimum?

Chiparus

Would you allow any graduate to leave or just the unemployed ones?
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65780202&postcount=222

Troll anyone?

Vorsprung

Chiparus wrote: »

Would you allow any graduate to leave or just the unemployed ones?
http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65780202&postcount=222

Troll anyone?

Nice find.

sam34

Caoimhin,

any more of the inflammatory, insulting, derogatory crap and you will be banned.

no further warnings.

TC80

docbroc wrote: »

:
IMO cares too much about patient safety - my arse. Is this the same IMO that let the Mater staff the hospital with one doctor at night?

Be fair. That is not at all what I said. What I said was that a doctors strike could make things worse for patients in Irish public hospitals and should not be undertaken lightly. I stand by that. If that is not true there wouldnt be much point in us coming to work ever. I have never worked in the Mater but I am fairly sure there is more than one doctor staffing the entire place by night, maybe some departments are understaffed but I dont think statements like that help anyone understand the issue.

docbroc wrote: »

:
In terms of hospitals acting the maggot there is a very clear pattern - screw the NCHDs. You dont see nurses getting shafted their overtime or porters or pharmacists or anyone else. This is because of our weak union, plain and simple.

I agree with you that hospitals try things on NCHDs that they wouldn't on other groups and this bugs me. However I know quite a few nurses working on zero-hour contracts in Dublin hospitals who would tell you that we don't have the monopoly on it. I think the main reason is we are temporary employees on 6-12 months contracts who often just pass through a place. I think a stronger more visible grassroots IMO would help this, but this will have to be driven by us NCHDs ourselves. it's up to us to unite and organise and stand up for ourselves, beginning at grassroots level. Bottom up, not top down. I don't think this can be achieved on internet fora by criticising the only people who actually try.

docbroc wrote: »

:
The loss of the training grant is no sweat to those on the NCHD committee but believe me if your doing exams its a huge pocket emptying deal.

Ah, play the ball, not the man. That statement is not on at all. The only thing this proves is that you have no idea what the personal circumstances of the people on the NCHD committee are. Exam and training fees are being paid directly by the HSE from July onwards. And if you really want someone to blame for the loss of the training grant talk to those who abused it for years, thats all I'll say on the matter.

docbroc wrote: »

:
The labour court is labourisly slow. Indeed. That is why we shouldnt be using it. I for one cant wait several years to get my overtime paid to me. You think other unions fight local disputes through the courts? You know damn well they dont. Local disputes are solved with local action.

You are incorrect in saying that other unions don't use the LRC and Labour Court. A quick visit to their website will prove this. They are the arms of state for resolving industrial disputes, and the final destination for any set of people that go on strike. There are huge waiting lists for all branches of the system. The reason they are slow is because half the bloody country is using them at the moment!

docbroc wrote: »

Thanks to the IMOs collusion with the HSE your destroyed weekend is "study time". Studying how to do the phlebotomists job for them.....

There is no sane interpretation of the IMO/HSE agreement that could classify phlebotomy weekends as study time. It is false to suggest that any "collusion" on the part of the IMO makes this possible. In fact it is enshrined in the agreement that the HSE undertakes to pay for all hours worked. the person in question needs to stop working for free on saturdays immediately and, if they are an IMO member, take a case to a rights commissioner because they are being cheated. But if they don't take that first step it will go on.

docbroc wrote: »

A good starting point is to hit these extraneous jobs. Make an announcement that no NCHD will give iv medications unless they are trained to do so. Say on x day this will stop. Its dangerous and inefficient. I guarantee the total support of everyone I know. If we win - patient safety improves, we remove a ridiculous practice and we save time, so we can actually get home once and a while. Even if we lose we will at least be the flea that hiccuped. We couldnt possibly sink any lower in the HSE's eyes.

Again broc, I completely agree with you about IVs. Stupid waste of time. However you are wrong to say it is being cheerfully ignored. The IMO has begun pressursing and is working with HIQA to develop a national protocol on this. At local level where we have always had strong reps and a good res committee in a hospital I worked in, we approached mgmt about this issue and sold it to them calmly and reasonably as a money saving exercise. We got support from the medical board, admin and nurse practice development bought into it and NCHDs havent ahd to give IVs here for 3 years. This is the type of activism I firmly believe in and a strong IMO on the ground can achieve this sort of stuff.

docbroc wrote: »

The IMO comittee need to recognise one important fact. YOU WILL NEVER BECOME CONSULTANTS.

Another cheap shot broc. I don't think you know very much about the folks on the committee at all. it is made up of a small number of trainee specialists, some GP trainees, some public health trainees, some doctors involved in full time teaching and a number of people on contracts of indefinite duration. The majority of members are not in consultant training anyway. Your post gives the impression that somehow a desire to become consultants informs the behaviour of the group. You cannot justify this.

Look. I passionately believe that it is only by being united that NCHDs can improve things. I see the best vehicle for doing this as being the IMO. My own contribution has been predominantly local. I started a res committee in a place I used to work in (doing research now but still do the odd call) and was very lucky to get about 10 good committed people onto it. By building good relationships on the ground we achieved no small amount of things, amongst them successfully opposing 16 NCHD job cuts, pro-NCHD changes to the on call rota, reinstating an unfarily suspended NCHD and best of all, the IV policy. I found the people in IMO house helpful in doing this so I got involved a small but more. I think i we don't stand together we are screwed. the only points I have tried to make on this thread are that people need to get engaged and onvolved because WE ARE THE BLOODY IMO, not some guy or gal in a suit in town, you and me, all of us!

It can be hard at times to stay motivated and involved with all this stuff. God knows, if I was thinking about getting involved and I read the stuff on this thread I'd probably run a mile. It's very easy to be a keyboard warrior and hurl on the ditch, exaggerate things, take cheap shots and misrepresent what people say. Let me leave you with this thought though broc, if you and people like you don't get up off your arses and stand up in real life you will end up being represented for people like me, for whom you seem to have a fairly thinly disguised visceral loathing.

Your call old son.

docbroc

Be fair. That is not at all what I said. What I said was that a doctors strike could make things worse for patients in Irish public hospitals and should not be undertaken lightly. I stand by that. If that is not true there wouldnt be much point in us coming to work ever. I have never worked in the Mater but I am fairly sure there is more than one doctor staffing the entire place by night, maybe some departments are understaffed but I dont think statements like that help anyone understand the issue.

It describes a time recently when the HSE was experimenting with EWTD amongst the interns in the Mater. An insanely dangerous situtation was allowed to develoup because the IMO didnt want to be seen interfering with EWTD protocols no what how insane they were.

I agree with you that hospitals try things on NCHDs that they wouldn't on other groups and this bugs me. However I know quite a few nurses working on zero-hour contracts in Dublin hospitals who would tell you that we don't have the monopoly on it. I think the main reason is we are temporary employees on 6-12 months contracts who often just pass through a place. I think a stronger more visible grassroots IMO would help this, but this will have to be driven by us NCHDs ourselves. it's up to us to unite and organise and stand up for ourselves, beginning at grassroots level. Bottom up, not top down. I don't think this can be achieved on internet fora by criticising the only people who actually try.

I agree wholeheartedly with the digusting practise of zero hour contracts. But you rarely see a half dead or heavily pregrant nurse dashing around doing other peoples job for them no matter what their contract.

One of the reasons Im so critical of the IMO is that I have been involved with it. There is a definate SPRopia about it. Getting any action of any kind is like trying to organise a piss up in a pioneer convention. More visibility is not needed - more bloody action is. I remember sitting at a session where we were debating what to do about the unpaid lunch break. The IMO rep actually suggested we all stand outside the managements office at lunch in a silent protest!!! But it was thought unfeasable because so little of us actually got a lunch break they felt the crowd would not be impressive!? Why didnt we just write doormat on or foreheads and lie in the corridor on front of the offices so their boots dont get scuffed on the floor.

In terms of exam and training fees. Our Medical Admin has a big mouth. She has just gotten back from their latest coven with news. From the 1st of July the plan is - your exam is only covered first time and only covered if you pass. UK exams will not be covered. Preparatory courses of any kind will not be covered. This is what happens when you entrust education to the HSE.

When I say that others unions dont use the labour court I talking about a local context. If the HSE tries to increase then nurse to patient ratio the INO do not run to the labour court. They sort it out via local action (which incidently helps protect patients). This is why the HSE respects nurses and why they are on our rostering comittee and we are not.

There is no sane interpretation of the IMO/HSE agreement that could classify phlebotomy weekends as study time. It is false to suggest that any "collusion" on the part of the IMO makes this possible. In fact it is enshrined in the agreement that the HSE undertakes to pay for all hours worked. the person in question needs to stop working for free on saturdays immediately and, if they are an IMO member, take a case to a rights commissioner because they are being cheated. But if they don't take that first step it will go on.

Sorry i meant "training hours"
The Agreement also provides for new arrangements for protected training time for NCHDs which will not count as working time for the purposes of the EWTD but which shall be treated the same as working hours for payment purposes.

So is phlebotomy the SHO's job or is it his training time ? It clearly isnt his job. Even if he isnt working for free, he is still loosing his weekend to do a non medical job. Not only that but he is breaking the law to do so. The IMO have legitimised this via the "training hours" crap. Can you imagine if nurses had to give up their weekends to come in and make beds ? Or that their union allowed the HSE to call it "training"

Again broc, I completely agree with you about IVs. Stupid waste of time. However you are wrong to say it is being cheerfully ignored. The IMO has begun pressursing and is working with HIQA to develop a national protocol on this. At local level where we have always had strong reps and a good res committee in a hospital I worked in, we approached mgmt about this issue and sold it to them calmly and reasonably as a money saving exercise. We got support from the medical board, admin and nurse practice development bought into it and NCHDs havent ahd to give IVs here for 3 years. This is the type of activism I firmly believe in and a strong IMO on the ground can achieve this sort of stuff.

Are you saying that all the kings horses and all the kings men cant change an insane dangerous medically retarded joke of a practice ? The IMO is pressuring HIQA ? Im sorry but we need to develoup some balls. There is no other country in the world that practices this ****e. The reason is - their doctors are capable of refusing to do it, taking on some damn patient advocacy. It worked in your hospital because the management and nursing directorate are fairly sensible, try it down the luas line and see how well it goes ! This has been going on for decades. It has resulted in a patient death. It needs to change. The only weapon is our refusal and the IMO should coordinate that.

As for keyboard warring Ive been in IMO shunland for some time now. I wholeheartedly agree the IMO can achieve things but I dont have the energy anymore to rally the Eunchs. Their is also a finite amount I can achieve in 6 weeks. However if I was to stand up on an issue would the IMO assist ? What would it take ? Come out tomorrow and decry the firstdose crap. You can do it, it was even a not so thinly veiled motion at the agm. I will deliever you an entire hospitals worth of support (who have tried and failed by lets-be-reasonable means). I would love if my closing time in Ireland could be to the tune of a stand, any sort of bloody stand.

Caoimhín

sam34 wrote: »

Caoimhin,

any more of the inflammatory, insulting, derogatory crap and you will be banned.

no further warnings.

Fair enough Sam, point taken.

I simply find that a "lack of respect from the minister" as an excuse to not practice in the country where you were educated a little, well, odd

A plain lack of respect on the part of the Minister, the HSE and previous health authorities.

This statement simply amazed me. There are very few professions who graduate and expect to immediately begin work in a well paid job with wonderful hours and respect from your employers. But most of us stick with it and work our way up the system and earn respect.

My comments following this were simply an outburst and I did not mean to generalise or disparage the medical profession in general. I am well aware of the difficult conditions, low pay and stress associated with working as a junior doctor in the Irish health service.

If every civil servant, employee or professional decided to leave the country because of a lack of respect from a government minister, the country would be devoid of professionals.

Do you think many solicitors refuse to practice in Ireland due to a lack of respect form the minister for justice?

If you find my opinion inflammatory, crap or derogatory then ban away, is it s that criticism of your profession in any form is not allowed?

sam34

Caoimhín wrote: »

If you find my opinion inflammatory, crap or derogatory then ban away, is it s that criticism of your profession in any form is not allowed?

that is not the case, as you would see if you took time to read old posts/threads here.

valid, accurate criticisms are of course allowed, and are discussed here.

sensationalist offensive generalisations are not welcome however.

Caoimhín

sam34 wrote: »

that is not the case, as you would see if you took time to read old posts/threads here.

valid, accurate criticisms are of course allowed, and are discussed here.

sensationalist offensive generalisations are not welcome however.

Well valid/accurate or offensive criticism is often a matter of interpretation and opinion.

I shall leave it at that, since your profession is clearly beyond reproach.

sam34

sam34 wrote: »

Caoimhin,

any more of the inflammatory, insulting, derogatory crap and you will be banned.

no further warnings.

Caoimhín wrote: »

your profession is clearly beyond reproach.

don't say you weren't warned

banned

TC80

docbroc wrote: »

In terms of exam and training fees. Our Medical Admin has a big mouth. She has just gotten back from their latest coven with news. From the 1st of July the plan is - your exam is only covered first time and only covered if you pass. UK exams will not be covered. Preparatory courses of any kind will not be covered. This is what happens when you entrust education to the HSE.

That is rubbish. She's talking out her backside.

docbroc wrote: »

This is why the HSE respects nurses and why they are on our rostering comittee and we are not.

They are required by legal instrument to have NCHD representation on the rostering committee. Ergo if they refuse NCHD participation the roster becomes illegal. All you have to do is remind them of this obligation.

docbroc wrote: »

So is phlebotomy the SHO's job or is it his training time ? It clearly isnt his job. Even if he isnt working for free, he is still loosing his weekend to do a non medical job. Not only that but he is breaking the law to do so. The IMO have legitimised this via the "training hours" crap. Can you imagine if nurses had to give up their weekends to come in and make beds ? Or that their union allowed the HSE to call it "training"

The agreement has very clear definitions on what is and isnt training time. Weekend phlebotomy doesnt meet that. And you obviously know this but have yet again chosen to misrepresent the IMOs position and mislead people reading.

docbroc wrote: »

Come out tomorrow and decry the firstdose crap. You can do it, it was even a not so thinly veiled motion at the agm.

With pleasure...

http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=call_for_policy_on_delivery_of_first_iv_doses

http://www.irishmedicalnews.ie/index.php/news/3385-nchds-call-for-reform-of-work-practices

You should familiarise yourself with what people at the IMO are trying to do before slagging them off for not doing it.

The agreement reached offers a framework for protecting the rights of NCHDs. The many disgraceful breaches of it you point are exactly that, breaches of a legal document. It is the result of MMMs up and down the country taking advantage of the fact that NCHDs will not organise themselves locally and fight them. This is the main deficiency of IMO and all members have a clear responsibility to do something about it.

take everything

Caoimhín wrote: »

I am well aware of the difficult conditions, low pay and stress associated with working as a junior doctor in the Irish health service.

No you're not.

Star Trek

TC80.. Since you have in depth knowledge of IMO strategy, and it is evident that you have work experience with IMO as well, I would like to ask you few questions, IMO represent nearly 3000+ non EU doctors for n number of years, how many times Non EU doctors are selected in the IMO executive position in the past ????

To my knowledge the answer is none, you can correct me if I am wrong. We are aware that local hospital IMO representatives can be non-EU doctor, but I haven't heard someone who has represented IMO from non EU background.

The main reason to highlight this issue is non EU doctors community has a great feeling that there is communication gap between IMO and non EU doctors. IMO fail to understand the immigration and settlement related Issues for NON EU doctors in Ireland.

When you are addressing an Immigration issue after nearly 1 year in annual meeting, it clearly indicate IMO is not interested in non EU doctors issues.

Once IMO has multicultural board of directors representing different nationalities then they will be able to understand the NON EU doctor's day to day problems.

GOD bless HSE executives and minister of health, they never attend any, medical staff meetings in the hospitals, they never bother to understand what issues medical staff face on daily basis. Instead they depend on clinical directors reports.they are not interested in check and balance as well.

Furthermore, the recent changes in the NCHD contracts are matter of concern for all the NCHDs, Initially the contracts offered to NCHDs starting from 1st of July 2010, stated training post.

In less then a week HSE has decided to revert it to general contract so they don't have to dedicate any resources for NCHD training. HSE promised training and development earlier but now they are manipulating the situation e.g only one training post for obs and gynaecology in coombe hospital so far.

If IMO is so effective and responsive as you have identified in the previous posts, It's website should be updated with current changes information and its impact on NCHDs,

IMO should be updaing the actions taken to address this issue. IMO didn't even bother to communicate with NCHD on the training issue.

There is no question that Ireland is not a suitable place for NCHD's, specially from training and development point of view. So Lack of NCHDs should not be a surprise to Irish people.