Guilty until proven innocent

Cookie_Monster

Regardless of what you think about the Head shops and all the goings on surrounding them I couldn't believe this piece from the RTE article on it

The Psychoactive Substances Bill will also allow gardaí to seek a court order to close head shops suspected of selling drug-like products with the onus on the owners to prove they are not.

So much for the rule of law and having to prove guilt before action is taken!

*Can we keep this off the topic of Head shops and focus on this part as there is already a thread on the shops and substances themselves*

Cavehill Red

The precedent of guilty until proven innocent was set by the Criminal Assets Bureau.

Banned Account

It is an established precedent that, in certain circumstances, guilt can be inferred from the circumstances. It is, nonetheless a dangerous tenet to invoke too freely.

Degsy

Governement arseholes..there's people selling heroin at 8am on the Liffey Boardwalk and they're going after legitimate people trying to sell legal products.

dlofnep

Degsy wrote: »

Governement arseholes..there's people selling heroin at 8am on the Liffey Boardwalk and they're going after legitimate people trying to sell legal products.

Meself and yourself go down to the Liffey and drop-kick the dealers into it?

Banned Account

Another point for cookiemonster to consider is that the concept of being denied bail is also aginst the concept of bring innocent until proven guilty.

Degsy

dlofnep wrote: »

Meself and yourself go down to the Liffey and drop-kick the dealers into it?

No need..they usually find thier way in under thier own steam round 8pm.

20goto10

It shows that theirs nothing they can do about head shops. Owners can simply prove they're not doing anything illegal and continue trading.

But I wonder how many times they will have to prove it.

Hazys

Head shops will be now selling some very nice vases.

Overheal

20goto10 wrote: »

It shows that theirs nothing they can do about head shops. Owners can simply prove they're not doing anything illegal and continue trading.

But I wonder how many times they will have to prove it.

Its like the County Tax Office here. Every few months they'll send us a letter billing us for a few thousand dollars in "overdue sales taxes". Its then on us to prove we paid them already; and you only get one chance to print your receipt of payment.

Its like they just pick you at random. And it goes against IuPG

Peanut

The Psychoactive Substances Bill will also allow gardaí to seek a court order to close head shops suspected of selling drug-like products with the onus on the owners to prove they are not.

"drug-like products" eh?

Good old fashioned asceticism at work. God forbid that anyone would want to ingest something for the purposes of enjoyment. Wouldn't want to upset the vintners now either.

evercloserunion

I haven't seen the legislation but it sounds like it's more a case of a specific set of circumstances shifting the onus of proof rather than head shops, in all cases, being innocent until proven guilty. It's important to examine what conditions precedent there are to the Gardai's power to seek such an order.

Einhard

Degsy wrote: »

Governement arseholes..there's people selling heroin at 8am on the Liffey Boardwalk and they're going after legitimate people trying to sell legal products.

Eh, they're not legal. That's the point. Irrespective of the whole Headshop debate, I don't think it's unreasonable that a government should have the right to prohibit certain products as they see fit.

As to the OP's point, I thought that when I first heard about the legislation. It's absurd that the the onus is on the accused to prove his innocence rather than the other way 'round, and sets a dangerous precedent IMO. I wonder if it will stand up to scrutiny in the higher courts.

As for bail arrangements, I don't see the analogy tbh. Even if you're remanded in custody for a hearing, the state still has to prove a case against you, not vice versa.

Overheal

semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit

the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

Mike 1972

Peanut wrote: »

"drug-like products" eh?

Why dont they just pass a law against "bad things" and be done with it ?

Clarity in legislation is so overrated dontcha think :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why dont they just pass a law against "bad things" and be done with it ?

Probably because the politicians don't want to be locked up first.

Pherekydes

I can't see anywhere in the OP's quote about guilt.

In this case, the shop must prove it is selling only legal products before it will be allowed open. Wouldn't this be the case with any shop? Don't Pubs, for instance, have to have a licence (i.e. prove they are legit) before they are allowed trade?

CrazyRabbit

I've no sympathy for head shops. Any place that sells drugs which have unknown long term effects should be shut. Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

So while I'm weary of laws which bring in a 'guilt until proven innocent', I think it's necessary in some cases. This is one of them.

PK2008

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I've no sympathy for head shops. Any place that sells drugs which have unknown long term effects should be shut. Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

So while I'm weary of laws which bring in a 'guilt until proven innocent', I think it's necessary in some cases. This is one of them.

You're wreckin me buzz man!!!

thebullkf

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I've no sympathy for head shops. Any place that sells drugs which have unknown long term effects should be shut. Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

So while I'm weary of laws which bring in a 'guilt until proven innocent', I think it's necessary in some cases. This is one of them.

someone get me a crazywok....

Aids By Google

Heard something on the radio about this. There seems to some generic part of the law to cover any future variation of the drugs concerning their use for getting your rocks off. Seems a tad strange to me as some smart person could use it to have pubs closed.

Dr_Teeth

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

That's every pub in country then so.

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

That's your opinion.. it's also, as it happens, my opinion too - but we don't have the right to force our opinions on other people.

weldoninhio

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I've no sympathy for head shops. Any place that sells drugs which have unknown long term effects should be shut. Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

So while I'm weary of laws which bring in a 'guilt until proven innocent', I think it's necessary in some cases. This is one of them.

So basically, you would like to see all pubs, off licenses and supermarkets and restaurants that sell alcohol closed???

To get back on point, if the headshopkeeper is selling plant food or bath salts, in packaging that says "plant food" or "bath salts" with a warning "not for human consumption" how can he be charged under these laws?? Will your local Spar be closed if some young lads are caught doing aerosols that they bought there??

Overheal

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

Well I'm so glad your poo smells like roses. Other people drink; smoke; shoot up; slurp coffee; binge on sugar; crave chocolate; snort coke; etc.

And I mean hey, if you do none of these things and are some kind of Monk that eats rice grain and meditates 20 hours a day fair play to you.

I've no sympathy for head shops. Any place that sells drugs which have unknown long term effects should be shut. Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

That basically describes every pharmacist in the country, and globally. Salmeterol relieves asthma related symptoms...but look out! because it also increases the risk of Asthma related death. Sooooo.... catch 22 there.....

Fact is you're looking for a much, much broader pharmaceutical reform. To single out black market drugs is irresponsible. Plenty of Pharmacy drugs make it to market with insufficient testing.

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

You've never heard of Opium? Six Thousand Years of recorded history can't be wrong.

So while I'm weary of laws which bring in a 'guilt until proven innocent', I think it's necessary in some cases. This is one of them.

No its not. And once you make one exception, you start making other exceptions. I don't give a **** what you think about drugs, but when it comes to the Law in general, Innocent Until Proven Guilty must be upheld at the penalty of descending into something I don't even want to fathom.

Peanut

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

You're right, you don't. But I don't need someone else to decide that for me.

We also don't really need chocolate, coffee, or anything with large concentrations of sugar and oils.

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

Yes overuse of any substance can generally be considered as abuse. But there is certainly a difference between use and abuse.

For someone with a Dawkins quote in their sig, your arguments are very similar to those of Wahabist Islam for example.

DublinWriter

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

...and this just in, we don't have to take our clothes off to have a good time.

Now here's Jean with tomorrows weather.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I've no sympathy for head shops. Any place that sells drugs which have unknown long term effects should be shut. Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

So while I'm weary of laws which bring in a 'guilt until proven innocent', I think it's necessary in some cases. This is one of them.

Never has more bullshít been posted in a single post...

Questioning ones mental health because they chose to ingest what they will. Jealous of their freedom?

Is it ok to ingest something if we know and understand the long term effects? Like Alcohol, tobacco, sugar, salt, preservatives, manufactured chemicals like colouring and flavouring...? If so, why?

Slugs

DublinWriter wrote: »

...and this just in, we don't have to take our clothes off to have a good time.

Now here's Jean with tomorrows weather.

It's tom...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXmzcroUmdU

CrazyRabbit

I seem to have struck a nerve with all the drug users...

And yes, I'd like to see alcohol and cigarettes banned completely also. I don't see the need for something that impares judgment, or something that drastically increases the chance of serious health problems.

I'm realistic though an know that this won't ever happen. But I don't want to see other drugs get the same dominance and acceptability as tobacco and alcohol. It will only harm society.

BTW, I'm no innocent little angel. I've had my experiences with alcohol/drugs and nothing good every came from them. I've been completely free of them for many years now and I'm much happier.

I just don't see the benefits of alcohol/mind altering drugs....I only see the harm the can cause.

Run_to_da_hills

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I've no sympathy for head shops. Any place that sells drugs which have unknown long term effects should be shut. Any place that sells unprescribed drugs that may impact a persons ability to reason, drive, act socially etc should be shut.

I hate that society is moving to a place where it is now more acceptable to use mind altering drugs in the name if 'enjoyment'.

Here's a newsflash...you don't need any drugs (including alcohol) to have enjoyment.

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

So while I'm weary of laws which bring in a 'guilt until proven innocent', I think it's necessary in some cases. This is one of them.

Go back to mass. :rolleyes:

CrazyRabbit

Noor Muscular Male wrote: »

Questioning ones mental health because they chose to ingest what they will. Jealous of their freedom?

I'd question someones mental health if they inhaled petrol/aerosol fumes as well. Just because they have the freedom to do it, and it makes them feel good for a while, doesn't mean they should be allowed to do it. So yes, I there is something wrong with people who have a need to use drugs of any kind to make themselves feel 'good' for a while. It indicates underlying problems.

Where do we draw the line? Alcohol ok? Cannabis ok? Cocaine ok? Heroin ok? Hallucinogenics ok? Glue sniffing...etc...etc. I'd rather zero tolerance for all of them, as the damage to society greatly outweighs the short term 'buzz' or benefits for individuals.

Dudess

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Having to pump drugs into your body to 'have fun' is a sign of a serious deficiency in your mental wellbeing and personality IMHO.

In your opinion? But what if it contradicts fact, which it seems it does (see: nearly everyone who drinks).

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I seem to have struck a nerve with all the drug users...

Why is objecting to the insults you've thrown out there "striking a nerve" (which implies people deep down feel bad about it and think you're right)? Maybe they just dislike you saying something like the stuff about a deficiency in mental wellbeing and personality?

I just don't see the benefits of alcohol/mind altering drugs....I only see the harm the can cause.

I see the harm they cause too - when abused, which can be devastating, but not applicable to the vast majority.

Overheal

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I'd question someones mental health if they inhaled petrol/aerosol fumes as well. Just because they have the freedom to do it, and it makes them feel good for a while, doesn't mean they should be allowed to do it.

So you think you can ban aerosol cans? Glue?

You can't stop people from having Free Will. Sorry about that.

So yes, I there is something wrong with people who have a need to use drugs of any kind to make themselves feel 'good' for a while. It indicates underlying problems.

You have a PhD in what now?

Where do we draw the line? Alcohol ok? Cannabis ok? Cocaine ok? Heroin ok? Hallucinogenics ok? Glue sniffing...etc...etc. I'd rather zero tolerance for all of them, as the damage to society greatly outweighs the short term 'buzz' or benefits for individuals.

Yes. You're the Extreme Right Wing nutter who thinks thats even remotely possible.

Like I've said, Narcotics have been around for Thousands of Years. We've had World Wars; Crusades; Empires Rise and Fall; Libraries and Untold amounts of Human History burned to cinders; The Dark Ages; The Plagues. If Drugs were going to be abolished, it was going to have happened already. You expect something frankly impossible. Because people are people. They have free will. And as long as one or two nutters want to refine Opium for their Jollies, theres going to be a market for it. The only difference is whether thats happening on the Open Market, tied to taxation and regulation, or the Black Market, tied to crime and violence.

Basically what you want is to impose your will onto others. Not gonna happen.

Peanut

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

BTW, I'm no innocent little angel. I've had my experiences with alcohol/drugs and nothing good every came from them. I've been completely free of them for many years now and I'm much happier.

I just don't see the benefits of alcohol/mind altering drugs....I only see the harm the can cause.

I think this is a common enough reaction if you happened to have problems with something in the past. You have seen the light so to speak, and want to share the good news with everyone else.

But you have to understand that your experience is not necessarily a generalised experience, and what caused problems for you in the past is not necessarily going to do the same to the next person.

flynner08

this is just another distraction created by the government to distract people for a week, while they just keep digging our country's grave. The volcanic ash crap wasn't taking away enough attention from them so they've quickly made up some stupid contradictory legislation to cause some debates in the media while everyone forgets about them and they can keep f**k*ng this country up

Tail Wagger

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The precedent of guilty until proven innocent was set by the Criminal Assets Bureau.

Nope it was introduced by Tax back in the 70s for the self employed, the tax access your earnings over the tax year and you have to prove them wrong. You employ a Charted Accountant to audit your accounts and it costs you money to prove the Tax Office wrong.!

starbelgrade

The thing that really worries me about this, is the severity of penalties which can be handed out - anyone found in possession of banned substances with the intent to supply - faces up to a life sentence, according to radio reports today.

You can stab someone in the head and kill them & get the same sentence. In fact, you can stab two people in the head & get the same sentence.

There's something quite wrong with that.

Oh, and Crazy Rabbit, just because you've experimented with substances & no longer feel the need to use them, doesn't give you the right to stop everyone else from doing so. You've had your fun, as you chose to do, so let those who want to enjoy themselves do so & don't be so god damn prissy about it.

karlm37

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Just because they have the freedom to do it, and it makes them feel good for a while, doesn't mean they should be allowed to do it.

It's amazing how closed minded some people are in this day and age...:rolleyes: While i can completly understand someone being against drugs for reasons such as funding criminals etc., I think this statement is rediculous. No one must "allow" me to do anything, I'll decide what i drink, smoke or ingest, thanks! Seems like you may have had some bad experiences in the past, and fair play to you if you've beaten addiction or whatever it may be... But will you please keep you're moral preaching to yourself and ride away on you're high horse, because you've talked enough sh1t for today

CrazyRabbit

Shouldn't have bothered trying to make a serious post in AH I guess. Not enough maturity here...just childish retorts.

I've yet to see one reply here explaining how head shop drugs, class A,B, C drugs or even 'safe(r)' alcohol/cigs is of any benefit to society.

So far in my life (excluding personal experiences which I won't go into). I've seen 1 cousin commit suicide after struggling with heroin for years. His younger brother was taking just about any pill you can think if and ended up schizophrenic. My best mate growing up had a stroke at age 23 after popping some E's. His older brother did 6 years in prison for armed robbery which was fueled by his need for drug money. Top that off with all the stupid antisocial behaviour of drunk/high people I've seen in the last 30+ years, and I've a pretty good case against unprescribed drugs.

These head shops are just using legal loopholes/flaws to get more people taking drugs as if it should be somehow acceptable. The attitudes of people replying here shows it's working....drug taking is more widely acceptable now.

And finally, some/most of you think I'm being unrealistic, and yes I am perhaps an idealist, but you could at least be civil in your replies please. If you want to take drugs, go ahead...that's your choice. I just want to make it illegal as I only see the negative effects.

Magill

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I seem to have struck a nerve with all the drug users...

I thought it was funny.

Think we should get some people on here booked into rehab !

starbelgrade

Magill wrote: »

I thought it was funny.

Think we should get some people on here booked into rehad !

Is that where a mujahid goes to sober up?

Dudess

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Shouldn't have bothered trying to make a serious post in AH I guess. Not enough maturity here...just childish retorts.

All of them? Just because they were in disagreement with you?

I've yet to see one reply here explaining how head shop drugs, class A,B, C drugs or even 'safe(r)' alcohol/cigs is of any benefit to society.

They're not, but not everything has to be. Are e.g. nice clothes of benefit to society?

So far in my life (excluding personal experiences which I won't go into). I've seen 1 cousin commit suicide after struggling with heroin for years. His younger brother was taking just about any pill you can think if and ended up schizophrenic. My best mate growing up had a stroke at age 23 after popping some E's. His older brother did 6 years in prison for armed robbery which was fueled by his need for drug money. Top that off with all the stupid antisocial behaviour of drunk/high people I've seen in the last 30+ years, and I've a pretty good case against unprescribed drugs.

And I am friends/acquainted with a hell of a lot of people who take/took drugs and the horror stories are of course a tragic thing, but I couldn't even count them on one hand.

If you want to take drugs, go ahead...that's your choice. I just want to make it illegal as I only see the negative effects.

Cool, but maybe lay off with the jibes about people's mental wellbeing and personality?

Pherekydes

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I've yet to see one reply here explaining how head shop drugs, class A,B, C drugs or even 'safe(r)' alcohol/cigs is of any benefit to society.

I heard a guy on the radio saying they (the legal highs) were good for you, so there.

Overheal

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Shouldn't have bothered trying to make a serious post in AH I guess. Not enough maturity here...just childish retorts.

I guess we struck a nerve :rolleyes:

I've yet to see one reply here explaining how head shop drugs, class A,B, C drugs or even 'safe(r)' alcohol/cigs is of any benefit to society.

If you wish to be that obtuse: They aren't. Neither is Father Ted, Soccer, Hollywood Movies, Kids Cereal, or Designer Shoes.

All Commodities all the same. People will Demand them; People will Supply them.

So far in my life (excluding personal experiences which I won't go into). I've seen 1 cousin commit suicide after struggling with heroin for years. His younger brother was taking just about any pill you can think if and ended up schizophrenic. My best mate growing up had a stroke at age 23 after popping some E's. His older brother did 6 years in prison for armed robbery which was fueled by his need for drug money. Top that off with all the stupid antisocial behaviour of drunk/high people I've seen in the last 30+ years, and I've a pretty good case against unprescribed drugs.

How come you hadn't campaigned against a ban on alcohol or cigarettes then? Tens of Thousands of people die globally and annually from Tobacco Related Illness. You've had all the time in the world and now some Gombeens want to sell some weak hashish and thats where you draw the line apparently. One dumbass kills himself on mushrooms in Galway and yup - ban that too. Nevermind the Millions that have died over the years from Cigarettes and Alcohol. Do you stop and ask why the Government(s) are so selective about what they Deplore?

These head shops are just using legal loopholes/flaws to get more people taking drugs as if it should be somehow acceptable. The attitudes of people replying here shows it's working....drug taking is more widely acceptable now.

The Tobacco company has been doing it for Decades: where were you?

And finally, some/most of you think I'm being unrealistic, and yes I am perhaps an idealist, but you could at least be civil in your replies please. If you want to take drugs, go ahead...that's your choice. I just want to make it illegal as I only see the negative effects.

The only thing Prohibition does is generate crime. The market will not die out. THC has been an illegal substance in America since the 1930s - did it stop? Nope. And now its becoming legal. You can't artificially halt the demand of a commodity. All you can do is regulate it. And look at Cigarettes in Europe now. They put wide effort into making people aware of the danger. Do they ban their sale? Of course not. For the same reason THC is becoming legalized in more places: Its Economics.

starbelgrade

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I've yet to see one reply here explaining how head shop drugs, class A,B, C drugs or even 'safe(r)' alcohol/cigs is of any benefit to society.

If you want to take drugs, go ahead...that's your choice. I just want to make it illegal as I only see the negative effects.

There are negative effects associated with over-indulging in anything - be that drugs, alcohol or even food. In the main though, people find a balance in what they choose to enjoy & tend to avoid the extremes which you have experienced.

The question you pose regarding drugs (of any class) being of any benefit to society, is largely irrelevant. History shows us that prohibition does not work & that the war on drugs has & always will be, an abject failure. So the only question that remains is how do you regulate the use of drugs? This is & possibly always will be a blind spot for governments & those who choose to try & legislate over what humans see as their own free will.

You will not stop people taking drugs if they so choose & by making them illegal, all that you achieve is to criminalise those who do. In addition to that, the closing of headshops will also serve to line the pockets of criminal gangs throughout the country. So what benefit to society is that? None whatsoever.

I understand that from your own personal experiences, that you only see the negative effects of drugs, but possibly due to that, you are also failing to see the bigger picture.

CrazyRabbit

Apologies Dudess. Your reply was not in any way childish and I shouldn't have generalised.

As for the other recent questions/comments....I know prohibition isn't perfect. But I'd rather a relatively small number of people engaged in drug taking illegally than a large number of people taking them legally. We can't stop people taking heroin, but do you really think it should be legalised & hence commercialised?

"You can't stop people harming society so you shouldn't even try" is not a valid argument.

And comparing designer clothes etc to drugs really doesn't make any sense. Designer clothes don't harm people or society in any way, so they don't need to be proven beneficial.

I'm still waiting for someone to give a benefit of these drugs that even partially outweighs their negative effects.

Cookie_Monster

so much for this being on the law rather than the drugs :rolleyes:

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

, but do you really think it should be legalised & hence commercialised?

key issues in all of this. Make it easier to get and the market demand will increase regardsless of other issues

Dudess

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Apologies Dudess. Your reply was not in any way childish and I shouldn't have generalised.

Ok, but I wasn't just referring to my reply - there was a number of replies that weren't childish snipes.

And comparing designer clothes etc to drugs really doesn't make any sense. Designer clothes don't harm people or society in any way, so they don't need to be proven beneficial.

I'm still waiting for someone to give a benefit of these drugs that even partially outweighs their negative effects.

Not saying they are of benefit to society, but why should they be? Hence my clothes analogy. Ok, here's another one: what benefit is sugar to society? It's one of the main causes of obesity when consumed in excess, but people enjoy it. People just want to be able to do stuff they enjoy, and not have this taken off them because of the minority who are irresponsible.

Overheal

Dudess wrote: »

Ok, here's another one: what benefit is sugar to society? It's one of the main causes of obesity when consumed in excess, but people enjoy it. People just want to be able to do stuff they enjoy, and not have this taken off them because of the minority who are irresponsible.

Not to go off topic but sugar production subsidies need to stop and its use in foodstuffs taxed.

Why a Salad Costs More than a Big Mac (Consumerist.com)

bluto63

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Shouldn't have bothered trying to make a serious post in AH I guess. Not enough maturity here...just childish retorts.

I've yet to see one reply here explaining how head shop drugs, class A,B, C drugs or even 'safe(r)' alcohol/cigs is of any benefit to society.

So far in my life (excluding personal experiences which I won't go into). I've seen 1 cousin commit suicide after struggling with heroin for years. His younger brother was taking just about any pill you can think if and ended up schizophrenic. My best mate growing up had a stroke at age 23 after popping some E's. His older brother did 6 years in prison for armed robbery which was fueled by his need for drug money. Top that off with all the stupid antisocial behaviour of drunk/high people I've seen in the last 30+ years, and I've a pretty good case against unprescribed drugs.

These head shops are just using legal loopholes/flaws to get more people taking drugs as if it should be somehow acceptable. The attitudes of people replying here shows it's working....drug taking is more widely acceptable now.

And finally, some/most of you think I'm being unrealistic, and yes I am perhaps an idealist, but you could at least be civil in your replies please. If you want to take drugs, go ahead...that's your choice. I just want to make it illegal as I only see the negative effects.

But that's just it, isn't it? It's our choice. That statement is incredibly contradictory because you're saying make it our choice, but you want to bring in measures which prevents it being our choice.

Prof.Badass

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm still waiting for someone to give a benefit of these drugs that even partially outweighs their negative effects.

The obvious benifits are that they help people have fund and unwind at the weekend. They can help people socialise and maintain a good bond with their friends and can give people a totally new perspective on the world and help them become better people.

Besides, It doesn't matter anyway. You have a fringe position that the majority will never share and it doesn't seem likely you'll ever change your mind. How about we all just agree to dissagree and get back to the original topic? No offense, but you have managed to derail what i see as a really important thread.
This isn't about drugs, or drug laws, it is about due proccess and the fair unbiased application of legislation.


The proposed law has NOTHING to do with illegal drugs. It is about "any drug-like substance". This is an idiotic law which if applied properly would affect a lot more than just headshops.

To apply this law properly you would also need to prosecute supermarkets for selling nutmeg, garden centres for selling psychoactive plants (for "ornamental purposes"), electronics stores for selling "computer duster" and "health shops" for their not only selling psychoactive herbs and isolated compounds, but even being so bold as to explicitly sell them as psychoactivites.

You may hate drugs and headshops, it doesn't matter. This law sets a worrying precedent for the future of the Irish legal system.

Don't forget this law is brought to us by the same morally-righteous authoritarian genius who brought us our brilliant new alcohol laws aswell as blasphemy legislation (not to mention his gangland bill which did away with the right to a jury :rolleyes:).