Water softener

PauloMN

Anyone got a water softener fitted (the mains type) and are you happy with it? I'm in Trim - moved end of last year - and I need to get something sorted as the water is just too hard. Seems to even be affecting one of the kids skin as well as everything else.

Would prefer to use a good local company obviously assuming similar costs to other companies.

DougL

We had to fit a water softener when we moved to Enfield a few years ago. It's the hardest water I've ever come across. We went with a flow metered model from Leo Forde and we've never had any problem with it. You can get one that's on a timer for a little less, but I liked the fact that it only consumes salt when there's actually a demand on the system.

Scottie99

Sagastipean wrote: »

We had to fit a water softener when we moved to Enfield a few years ago. It's the hardest water I've ever come across. We went with a flow metered model from Leo Forde and we've never had any problem with it. You can get one that's on a timer for a little less, but I liked the fact that it only consumes salt when there's actually a demand on the system.

What kind of price are these systems? The Mrs was talking about it the other day.

DougL

Scottie99 wrote: »

What kind of price are these systems? The Mrs was talking about it the other day.

It's been at least three years, and it was at the height of the boom, but I seem to remember it was around €1000-€1200.

There was also some crowd going around at the time doing the hard sell on some sort of kinetic system. It's cool technology and all, but they wanted over 3k for it and put on the hard sell with all kinds of "tests" of your water which are of dubious scientific value. Don't fall for their spiel.

PauloMN

Ok I've been on to a few suppliers and it seems like the electric systems are around €800, while the non-electric systems are around €1400 to €1600.

I'd prefer the non-electric one obviously, but not sure I can justify the extra spend. They seem to be based on a timer rather than on-demand, so I guess there's more waste from them in terms of salt used and waste water.

DougL

PauloMN wrote: »

Ok I've been on to a few suppliers and it seems like the electric systems are around €800, while the non-electric systems are around €1400 to €1600.

I'd prefer the non-electric one obviously, but not sure I can justify the extra spend. They seem to be based on a timer rather than on-demand, so I guess there's more waste from them in terms of salt used and waste water.

There are electric models which are on-demand based. I have one, which I got from Leo Forde. They told me I only needed the on-demand system if it was a holiday home, or if I was away a lot, but I liked the idea of less waste and more efficiency.

I'm a bit of a geek, so I've adjusted it so that I use less salt and still maintain fairly soft water.

endplate

www.water2buy.ie for the DIY'er. My brother got a seven person timer softener he's very happy with it. They have a video on how to install their products too.

CUCINA

We had an electric system fitted by "Aquasoft" about six years and it works very well. The only thing was when drinking the water from the tap, it tasted salty (probably not good for blood pressure!) . So shortly after, we added a second small tap for drinking-water onto the sink, with an additional filter system underneath the sink.
This system incorporates a small reserve tank and this is handy, say when there is a sudden cut-off of water supply or (as sometimes happens) the water from the main tap comes out very brown.
Aside from all that, I bought a soft-water test kit for a few euros a while back. It just involves adding a small sample of water to pinch of powder, then adding drops of another liquid, one by one. If the water is soft, the mix changes from pink to blue, so the more drops required to achieve the blue colour, the harder the water is etc.

CUCINA

We had an electric system fitted by "Aquasoft" about six years and it works very well. The only thing was when drinking the water from the tap, it tasted salty (probably not good for blood pressure!) . So shortly after, we added a second small tap for drinking-water onto the sink, with an additional filter system underneath the sink.
This system incorporates a small reserve tank and this is handy, say when there is a sudden cut-off of water supply or (as sometimes happens) the water from the main tap comes out very brown.
Aside from all that, I bought a soft-water test kit for a few euros a while back. It just involves adding a small sample of water to pinch of powder, then adding drops of another liquid, one by one. If the water is soft, the mix changes from pink to blue, so the more drops required to achieve the blue colour, the harder the water is etc.

DougL

The only thing was when drinking the water from the tap, it tasted salty (probably not good for blood pressure!) .

If your water tasted salty, then your water softener wasn't properly rinsing the beads inside the tank. As long as the softener is working properly, the water should never taste of salt!

PauloMN

Just in case anyone is currently looking at a softener, EW Technologies have a special offer running for the month of June on a softener for €599 installed (normally €995). The install includes a separate filtered drinking water tap.

I'm probably going to go with that offer as it's a very good price. Will post on here how it goes.

alanajane

Give plumber Larry Kelly a call, he Trim man living in Kildalkey I know he fits them. If you cant find his number I'll pm it to you but you should find it no bother. Trim water may be officially safe but it is sh... for your skin and tastes terrible.

bestiaries

yeah, trim water is dire.

gipi

I had a water softener installed last year - isn't electric and doesn't use salt. It's a 2-stage system of descaler (breaks down the calcium in the water so it doesn't bind together) and carbon filter. Carbon filter needs replacing once a year, descaler needs no attention.

This is the product I have Spectrosoft and it was installed under my sink.

Thought there were pics of the system on this site, but they're gone! I've got 2 filters in the cupboard under the sink.

(no connection to the company, just happen to have one of their products under my sink!).

aah yes

Posted in a recent thread ...

"Get the water tested by an INAB registered Lab or HSE lab and ask for Check Monitoring test of around ten parameters (50 euros) on mains water schemes, or Audit Monitoring test for (100 euros) on private wells. See firms below for other water testing advice - they may test hardness for you for free ...

As for water softener sizing, it is always, always better to go for the larger systems for longer life and lower water use because of better capacity and less frequent wash intervals, these sort of systems range from 500 to 800 euros and are state of the art, top end Clack metered systems.

Small fee for install / long warranty may be applied by expert firms. (Good advice, do not use the average plumber to install a water softener, or you will end up with badly calibrated, low efficiency system, [cost the earth over the years] and no - "really on the ball" back up service and warranty).

Sure some plumbers are good, and some may cater in the line of water treatment, but 9/10 are bad when it comes to dedicated water treatment, so best stay well clear.


If the hardness of the water exceeds 200 ppm total hardness (limescale) then domestic water softeners would be advisable.

In most of the Galway County water schemes the total hardness is around 400 ppm and it shows fairly quickly.

Water softeners have really come down in price however, equipment quality such as in Clack metered systems are now at an exceptionally good level and a number of WQA.org (Water Quality Association) member firms are offering very good service and prices.

Top end Clack water softeners now sell from 350 euros, have a 30 to 40 year life, they need servicing only every 15 to 20 years, and run on as low as 20 euros per year for salt in Kildare or around 3 bags per year for metered systems if sold and calibrated by good WQA member firms.

Two good firms to contact are ...

Watersource with two bases, in Goatstown and Emo, contact Mike Robson on 087 635 6123.

Smart Water Solutions, serving the East of the country, Kildare etc, contact Heinrich Leisner on 086 380 8575, or 087 683 6910


Both companies are WQA members and Clack equipment specialists. At least if you have to buy a water softener, look for value for money and expertise."

michael222

Yes

The water out here is hard as well, got that water sort machine here and working fine, everything is better even having a shower is better.

If you have the cash i would get this system in plcae

Michael

aah yes

Water softeners, especially Clack systems costing from 350 to 800 euros, will pay for themselves within a 2 to 4 year period on very hard water, adjusting for costs in repairs / replacement of showers, immersions, dishwashers, washing machines, etc, plus half the costs in cleaning and detergents, savings in heating costs for hot water, better carbon footprint, etc, etc.

At the worst, after 5 years to the next 30 years you can be saving from 100 to 300 euros per year, for very little annual running costs of 20 to 40 euros.

michael222

gws wrote: »

Water softeners, especially Clack systems costing from 350 to 800 euros, will pay for themselves within a 2 to 4 year period on very hard water, adjusting for costs in repairs / replacement of showers, immersions, dishwashers, washing machines, etc, plus half the costs in cleaning and detergents, savings in heating costs for hot water, better carbon footprint, etc, etc.

At the worst, after 5 years to the next 30 years you can be saving from 100 to 300 euros per year, for very little annual running costs of 20 to 40 euros.

Some good info here, where i live they have a web site set up for info just like this. People just need to know the effects of bad water.

Michael

aah yes

Like this ...

http://www.wwdmag.com/Results-of-Battelle-Study-Available-Online-NewsPiece20318


Results of the Battelle study on benefits of removal of water hardness from a water supply can be found at www.wqa.org/battellereport.

The U.S. Department of Energy said water heating can account for 14 to 25% of the energy consumed in your home. It is the second highest energy consuming area of a home, next to heating and cooling. Monthly water heating bills can be reduced substantially by softening hard water supplies, according to the Water Quality Research Foundation’s (WQRF) Battelle Study

This study shows water softeners to be one of the very highest energy-saving and best green technology appliances that a homeowner can own.

In 2009 the Battelle Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio, was retained by the WQRF to develop and run tests to determine how much energy savings household water softeners can provide.

Results of the study demonstrated that untreated hard water can cause significant efficiency losses and added costs in water heating--up to 24% in some cases.

Battelle also found hard water to rapidly lead to clogged showerheads, in as soon as a year-and-a-half of regular use.

After just one week of constant testing with hard water, more than three-fourths of showerhead nozzles became clogged, according to laboratory results.

All appliances and fixtures using softened water, meanwhile, performed nearly as well throughout the testing as on the day they were installed.

aah yes

see ...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68792475

John O Sulliva

Does any have a system provided by Celtic Water Solutions and if so how do you find them

oxomoxo

I had the EW Technologies water softener installed at the beginning of the year and haven't look back since. Great system and a very professional outfit to deal with. They even send me a text reminder every two months to check the system for salt levels. I've used less than 2 bags of salt in the last 5 months.

NIMAN

John O Sulliva wrote: »

Does any have a system provided by Celtic Water Solutions and if so how do you find them

Me.

Got one installed last year. Full size Clack system, excellent. We suffer from really hard water, been fine since. Very easy on salt too.

Excellent service. Costly at just over 1k, but we'll worth it IMHO. Aah yes is a great source of info on the subject, a mountain of information

aah yes

thank ye NIMAN

bladespin

Is this on a public mains system?

aah yes

More so on public mains, but many also on private wells.

bladespin

aah yes wrote: »

More so on public mains, but many also on private wells.

Wouldn't Irish Water be responsible for any damage caused by their 'product'

I remember the water in Dunshaughlin when I worked there years back, sludge would be a better description.

aah yes

Legally if it was a product classified as a food or beverage, under strict hygiene and re-sale laws, (bottled water etc,) maybe.

Even tap water has far higher levels of testing, parametric limitations, and EU Drinking Water Directive governance than bottled water.

But natural delivery of water in its normal state (hard or some level of hardness), .. no.

NIMAN

I forgot to add that for the price I also got a reverse osmosis system fitted with 5 filters, and an additional tap for drinking water.

I wouldn't use this religiously for drinking water as I don't taste any difference in the softened water and if you do the research softened water isn't high in salt as many people seem to think.

aah yes

Technically all ion exchange softened water is zero sodium chloride, no salt, just trace level sodium from 70 mg/L to 140 mg/L where 200 mg/L sodium is the safe W.H.O, HSE, EPA and EU Drinking Water Directive level.

About the same levels of sodium found in many popular supermarket bottled waters.

Except bottled waters are not zero sodium chloride like softened water, their levels include sodium chloride salt.

Some mains fed and well waters also contain some low levels of sodium chloride, so these could be added in total to final levels measured in softened water however.

creedp

aah yes wrote: »

Technically all ion exchange softened water is zero sodium chloride, no salt, just trace level sodium from 70 mg/L to 140 mg/L where 200 mg/L sodium is the safe W.H.O, HSE, EPA and EU Drinking Water Directive level.

About the same levels of sodium found in many popular supermarket bottled waters.

Except bottled waters are not zero sodium chloride like softened water, their levels include sodium chloride salt.

Some mains fed and well waters also contain some low levels of sodium chloride, so these could be added in total to final levels measured in softened water however.[/QUOTE

Sorry for dragging up old thread but I am in the process of installing a water softener system and was wondering if it is worthwhile also installing the RO tap for drinking water. Its seems reasonable to install in tandem with water softener but have been quoted maintenance costs of €120 per year for filters plus an additional €110 every 3 years for an additional filter. An additional option is to install a ultra violet treatment unit for about €150 to get rid of any bacteria that may be in the water now or at some time in the future - any views on whether this is worthwhile for a well supply in Co. Louth?

Anyone just install a water softener to all water supply incl drinking water or alternatively opt to soften all water except the drinking water.

I have contact a couple of companies including the Western one referred to earlier .. wondering if there are good/better alternatives for Co. Louth?

Thanks for assistance

aah yes

creedp wrote: »

aah yes wrote: »

Technically all ion exchange softened water is zero sodium chloride, no salt, just trace level sodium from 70 mg/L to 140 mg/L where 200 mg/L sodium is the safe W.H.O, HSE, EPA and EU Drinking Water Directive level.

About the same levels of sodium found in many popular supermarket bottled waters.

Except bottled waters are not zero sodium chloride like softened water, their levels include sodium chloride salt.

Some mains fed and well waters also contain some low levels of sodium chloride, so these could be added in total to final levels measured in softened water however.[/QUOTE

Sorry for dragging up old thread but I am in the process of installing a water softener system and was wondering if it is worthwhile also installing the RO tap for drinking water. Its seems reasonable to install in tandem with water softener but have been quoted maintenance costs of €120 per year for filters plus an additional €110 every 3 years for an additional filter. An additional option is to install a ultra violet treatment unit for about €150 to get rid of any bacteria that may be in the water now or at some time in the future - any views on whether this is worthwhile for a well supply in Co. Louth?

Anyone just install a water softener to all water supply incl drinking water or alternatively opt to soften all water except the drinking water.

I have contact a couple of companies including the Western one referred to earlier .. wondering if there are good/better alternatives for Co. Louth?

Thanks for assistance

Many of the RO systems sold currently in Ireland are of the older Chinese made "skeleton RO" design. (See pic below)

They can be bought no pump as low as €99 new in the box, with 3 pre filter + 50 gpg membrane + post carbon filter.


They have a separate air tank with 5 stages of filters, normally a cheap fountain tap or "caravan tap" worth 2 dollars.

The costs of buying the 3 pre-filters are cheap enough DIY at about €20 depending if you get discount in multiples ?


The old 50 gpd membrane on skeleton RO units used to be expensive at €100 replacement, but are now €30 to €50.

The last post carbon filter can be got for €5 or €10 at the cheapest.


The pumped version of the skeleton RO, adds to the buying costs, meaning they start €199 DIY pumped in the box.

Pumps use an extra €20 to €30 of electric runnings costs (electric) per year and potential long term maintenance.

Pumped RO units (unless European high quality RO) should only be used rarely on low water pressures 15psi to 30 psi.


The significant extra running costs for older RO designs, now with water metering in place (depending if Irish water survive long term) is the usual 10 to 1 water waste ratio to filtered water. Sometimes up to 27 to 1.

Manufacturer's claim as low as 5 to 1 ratio or 4 to 1, but this is only with ideal high pressure and high water temperature conditions - 60 psi and 25 C temp, found say in Arizona and the like. Not in Ireland with cold water as low as 5C to 15C.

The fitted price of many pumped 5 stage Chines made skeleton RO units, can often exceed €400 or €500, which nowadays with their added running costs, is a bit rich.

Add to that the annual on-site service costs by many firms and then the costs rocket up to extreme levels, from €100 to €165 a year with extra membrane replacement of €100 plus every few years adding to overall costs.

Weigh up water metering at 10 to 1 ratio waste to filtered water, up to 27 to 1 in some cases over a year and it could cost from €20 up to €100 per year on metered water costs alone to run an old Chinese made skeleton RO.

Add to that the electric pump running costs from €20 to €50 per year depending on overall use, and allowing for end of life and interim pump or pressure switch faults causing pumps to run on constantly without being checked for long periods of time.

Then add annual filter service, and the costs can spiral to over €200 per year running costs, maintenance, service, etc.





A new generation of RO systems removing the older inefficient air tank, and all visible pipes, tubes, cables, switches, pumps, etc, allow for zero cost of electric, (no pump, running on lower pressures as low as 30 psi.) half the water use of older types, and filter changes every 3 years, often with the first 5 or 6 years free filters with the installed systems.

These start from €299 in the box for the factory models, to €499 to the top of the range Irish design units supplied and installed, with 5 to 10 year on site warranty, and practically no running costs apart from after 6 years a DIY quick change, twist filter pack change out from €50, and after 8 or 10 years a new membrane at low cost.

They are European made, and are the new market leaders in the last 5 years, making older RO designs look like the older highly expensive to run timer water softeners, with all their extra added maintenance and regular up keep on service.

The Aquaphor company have been going for 25 years and are twice as large as the Brita filta company, (Brita 900 staff, Aquaphor 2,000). They distribute from Estonia and have headquarters in St. Petersburg, New York and Florida.

They have developed world beating products that now mean cheap running costs for much better quality filtered water than the old cheap Chinese skeleton RO units that use basic carbon filters and low range membranes at 50 gpd. see Aquaphor website

The Aquaphor Morion, or DWM 101 / 102 systems are 50 gpd, but the special Irish 100 models have 100 gpd, also with 3 silver carbon filters that allow bacteriostatic action even up to exhaustion of filters after 3 years, plus the world's only Mitsubishi UF or hollow fibre ultrafiltration post filter, offering a bacterial firewall at 0.02 microns or 0.1 absolute.

They occupy half the space of the old Chinese skeleton type, and look like a modern designer kitchen appliance, and not the likes of the unit you see in the photo above, to be hidden away in the deepest corner cupboard.

creedp

As always things are a little more difficult than originally advised. Your basic advise is that RO Units with separate air tanks should be avoided and the ones with pumps are even worse. Should most reputable suppliers be able to offer the newer more efficient models like the morion referred to above?

I have been quoted for a Stella RO Unit but I don't know if it is an older/more modern unit - I will have to check further. Can I assume that if the RO Unit requires annual filter changes for 3 or 4 filters plus a 5th filter changed every 3 years we are looking at the older more inefficient models?

Any views on not softening the drinking water tap (I need to check if I have 2 lines into house from pump in garage)? Would I be better off installing the RO system but insisting on the new models? Finally any views on installing an ultra violet treatment system in conjunction with the RO Unit.

All adds to the installation expense and the ongoing maintenance/running cost of the system afterwards. Where I live in Louth the water is quite hard but no-one around me has any form of water treatment system in place and while kettles get furred up regularly, there does not appear to be any identifiable problems with heating systems, immersions etc.

For me personally, the kettle is constantly furring up and I can't keep shower enclosures clean- unless the glass is continuously scrubbed it gets completely clouded over. Also cisterns regularly get stuck open with water flowing into the bowls for long periods of time sometimes - the kids will never come tell me if its happening. Also sinks and taps are constantly dirty and scaly which is a pain so I really want to do something to resolve this limescale problem as a priority.

I'm therefore tempted to just install a clack 10x54 softener and deal with RO and ultra violet treatment systems separately later - although the deals being offered to install all together can be tempting - Im concerned that going ahead on this basis will result in systems being installed which I will not be happy with in future years.

Sorry for meandering nature of post but what I thought was a relatively straight forward matter of course is not!

aah yes

creedp wrote: »

As always things are a little more difficult than originally advised. Your basic advise is that RO Units with separate air tanks should be avoided and the ones with pumps are even worse. Should most reputable suppliers be able to offer the newer more efficient models like the morion referred to above?

For the last 5 years the Aquaphor Morion units have out shadowed the old Chinese "skeleton" air tank / no pump or pump rivals, because of half the water running costs, no electric costs, very low replacement cartridge costs or maintenance, half the cupboard space needed, much higher quality filtration with 100 gpd membrane and triple silver carbon and 0.02 micron hollow fibre UF post ultrafiltration as extras, from 30 psi inlet pressure, so its like a jump from the old Motorola brick phone from the 1980's to the latest iPhone 6. There are a network of dealers growing, so the most reputable should carry these to keep apace with cutting edge developments in water filtration.

creedp wrote: »

I have been quoted for a Stella RO Unit but I don't know if it is an older/more modern unit - I will have to check further. Can I assume that if the RO Unit requires annual filter changes for 3 or 4 filters plus a 5th filter changed every 3 years we are looking at the older more inefficient models?

All other RO units that are on the market that are not Aquaphor Morion will have the old air bladder tank, with 10 to 1 water ratio in Ireland (4 to 1 in Arizona!), pump or no pump, conventional RO filtration without triple silver bacteriostatic carbons, without 100 gpd membrane and without 0.02 micron Mitsubishi hollow fibre UF post ultrafiltration, also twice the size, basically old technology maybe with their outer appearance spruced up ?

creedp wrote: »

Any views on not softening the drinking water tap (I need to check if I have 2 lines into house from pump in garage)? Would I be better off installing the RO system but insisting on the new models? Finally any views on installing an ultra violet treatment system in conjunction with the RO Unit.

Better to soften the cold water tap direct to the kitchen sink, just have one piped feed line to the whole house fed soft, then tee off for RO feed. All RO systems work much better fed from softened feed, their filters and membranes last twice as long. RO are able to remove that tiny trace level of sodium found in softened water to virtually zero. Always best to save a lot of money at least choosing the much better model Aquaphor, and get much better quality drinking water. An Ultraviolet system can be used next to the softener just after the softened feed to feed the whole house on naturally sourced waters like private borehole wells, lake water, stream water, or bad mains waters with regular boil water notices. Mini UV stuck on after an RO were always a bad idea, warming up water, costing extra electric where UF filtration (hollow fibre) does a better job without electric or warm water.

creedp wrote: »

All adds to the installation expense and the ongoing maintenance/running cost of the system afterwards. Where I live in Louth the water is quite hard but no-one around me has any form of water treatment system in place and while kettles get furred up regularly, there does not appear to be any identifiable problems with heating systems, immersions etc.

Once one house in a neighbourhood sees the benefits of softening / filtration, the word soon spreads if you get good supplier / installer. Heating systems are closed loop and do not require the ongoing throughput of ongoing and incoming hundreds of thousands of litres of problem water building up scale deposits over the years. A heating system may just have a 100 fixed litres going round in a circle, and use other 5 litre system inhibitors to treat the circulating water from iron or rust build up like Fernox MB1 anti rust inhibitor, or a brand like Betz Dearborn.

creedp wrote: »

For me personally, the kettle is constantly furring up and I can't keep shower enclosures clean- unless the glass is continuously scrubbed it gets completely clouded over. Also cisterns regularly get stuck open with water flowing into the bowls for long periods of time sometimes - the kids will never come tell me if its happening. Also sinks and taps are constantly dirty and scaly which is a pain so I really want to do something to resolve this limescale problem as a priority.

So get a Clack 10x44 / 54 water softener ideally from €700 to €900 depending on installer / warranty, quality of installation and back up, or a smaller unit if you are caught for space, down to say 10x24 at a push. Never allow cistern ball float valves to dribble more than a day or more, especially with a water softener or you may get in to big trouble, or a lot of hassles you can do without.

creedp wrote: »

I'm therefore tempted to just install a clack 10x54 softener and deal with RO and ultra violet treatment systems separately later - although the deals being offered to install all together can be tempting - Im concerned that going ahead on this basis will result in systems being installed which I will not be happy with in future years.

Sorry for meandering nature of post but what I thought was a relatively straight forward matter of course is not!

A 10x54 (40 to 50 litre resin) water softener on water hardness of 400ppm or less on a domestic house of average water use is a little too big and would suit more in the range of 500 to 1000ppm hardness (very rare) or if you have a 20 people bed and breakfast or high water use on 400ppm water or over. A 10x44 system is perfectly fine for the hardest 400ppm+ waters with big families in the hardest counties - Galway / Limerick.

Of course on the other end of the spectrum a cheap Chinese mini cabinet water softener 08x17 or less, especially if timer based would be a nightmare anywhere in the country, even if it was mock gold plated and on last minute sale deadline for €499 with a free set of cutlery, these aul rascals just don't last and cost the earth to maintain every year.

A modest 10x35 Clack would be yer man or 10x44 at a stretch. Even a 10x24 if ye are really caught for space under a press.

creedp

aah yes wrote: »

For the last 5 years the Aquaphor Morion units have out shadowed the old Chinese "skeleton" air tank / no pump or pump rivals, because of half the water running costs, no electric costs, very low replacement cartridge costs or maintenance, half the cupboard space needed, much higher quality filtration with 100 gpd membrane and triple silver carbon and 0.02 micron hollow fibre UF post ultrafiltration as extras, from 30 psi inlet pressure, so its like a jump from the old Motorola brick phone from the 1980's to the latest iPhone 6. There are a network of dealers growing, so the most reputable should carry these to keep apace with cutting edge developments in water filtration.

Ive has a look at the website and they seem to be a superior product to the std RO Units which will probably payback their additional installation costs quite quickly. I like the idea of no electricity/pump and a much lower level of water waste. By the way are the specs quoted above for the top of the range 'Ireland - 100' Unit and is this worth the extra cost over the 'Generic - 50' Unit or lower spec units?

Better to soften the cold water tap direct to the kitchen sink, just have one piped feed line to the whole house fed soft, then tee off for RO feed. All RO systems work much better fed from softened feed, their filters and membranes last twice as long. RO are able to remove that tiny trace level of sodium found in softened water to virtually zero.

I've had a better look at the supply to the house and there is 2 supply pipes OK but 1 is supplying the cold feed to the kitchen and utility and the washing machine and dishwasher while the other one supplies the rest of the house. So no option to soften the supply with the exception of the kitchen cold tap.

An Ultraviolet system can be used next to the softener just after the softened feed to feed the whole house on naturally sourced waters like private borehole wells, lake water, stream water, or bad mains waters with regular boil water notices. Mini UV stuck on after an RO were always a bad idea, warming up water, costing extra electric where UF filtration (hollow fibre) does a better job without electric or warm water.

OK understand this but is it necessary to install a full supply ultraviolet system if an RO system with a hollow fibre UF post ultrafiltration system is installed for drinking water?

Never allow cistern ball float valves to dribble more than a day or more, especially with a water softener or you may get in to big trouble, or a lot of hassles you can do without.

The cisterns don't leak per se but can sometimes stick open and the switch must be gigged to close. I think its the limescale that is causing them to stick so Im hoping the water softener will solve this problem also!

A 10x54 (40 to 50 litre resin) water softener on water hardness of 400ppm or less on a domestic house of average water use is a little too big and would suit more in the range of 500 to 1000ppm hardness (very rare) or if you have a 20 people bed and breakfast or high water use on 400ppm water or over. A 10x44 system is perfectly fine for the hardest 400ppm+ waters with big families in the hardest counties - Galway / Limerick.

A modest 10x35 Clack would be yer man or 10x44 at a stretch. Even a 10x24 if ye are really caught for space under a press.

So if space isn't an issue you would recommend the 10x44 rather than the 10x54 or 10x35?

Thanks again for advice and information

aah yes

creedp wrote: »

I've had a look at the website and they seem to be a superior product to the std RO units which will probably pay back their additional installation costs quite quickly. I like the idea of no electricity/pump and a much lower level of water waste. By the way are the specs quoted above for the top of the range 'Ireland - 100' Unit and is this worth the extra cost over the 'Generic - 50' Unit or lower spec units ?

Alway worth getting the Ireland 100 special Aquaphor RO with all the bells and whistles, also comes with 5 to 6 year filter cover as an extra, no annual maintenance costs, just a pre-filter top up cost of around €60 DIY to get from 6 to 9 years then.

creedp wrote: »

I've had a better look at the supply to the house and there is 2 supply pipes OK but 1 is supplying the cold feed to the kitchen and utility and the washing machine and dishwasher while the other one supplies the rest of the house. So no option to soften the supply with the exception of the kitchen cold tap.

Plumbing can be re-arranged in 95% of cases to get the softened water you want where you want it, and leave a garden tap unsoftened in many cases, or go for a soft garden tap for wishing cars and windows if gardening not big on the list, or have two garden taps.

creedp wrote: »

OK understand this but is it necessary to install a full supply ultraviolet system if an RO system with a hollow fibre UF post ultrafiltration system is installed for drinking water?

Private well water has a natural source and not being chlorinated and disinfected like municipal water so UV systems are always recommended for private wells. Unless your mains water scheme is on a perpetual boil water notice a UV is a bit overkill. So an RO steps in to cover the boil water risk and all the other spectrum of issues at question, be it lead in old pipes, chlorine, fluoride, trihalomethane, etc etc.

creedp wrote: »

The cisterns don't leak per se but can sometimes stick open and the switch must be gigged to close. I think its the limescale that is causing them to stick so I'm hoping the water softener will solve this problem also !

Don't assume anything where sticking ball floats are concerned. As I mentioned before get them sorted out before you get a softener, get a plumber in if need. They will play havoc with a water softener if you don't.

creedp wrote: »

So if space isn't an issue you would recommend the 10x44 rather than the 10x54 or 10x35 ?

10x35 perfect, 10x44 super perfect, 10x54 or over is getting a bit US stateside for super high use of water, bed and breakfast, 10 room hotel etc.

creedp wrote: »

Thanks again for advice and information

Not a worries.

creedp

Plumbing can be re-arranged in 95% of cases to get the softened water you want where you want it, and leave a garden tap unsoftened in many cases, or go for a soft garden tap for wishing cars and windows if gardening not big on the list, or have two garden taps.

That's a good idea. I might install a softened 'external' tap inside the garage for washing the car. The existing external tap can then be used for everything else.



Private well water has a natural source and not being chlorinated and disinfected like municipal water so UV systems are always recommended for private wells. Unless your mains water scheme is on a perpetual boil water notice a UV is a bit overkill. So an RO steps in to cover the boil water risk and all the other spectrum of issues at question, be it lead in old pipes, chlorine, fluoride, trihalomethane, etc etc.

While I don't disagree with you that there is always a risk that private wells can become contaminated I wouldn't even consider installing a UV system if I wasn't installing a water softener. Again no one I know has such as system and I know plenty on private wells. My original home had a shallow well - was water level only 20 feet below surface - and the drinking water came from a storage tank which was manually filled once a day at most and we never had a problem with water. Parents (in their 80's) till live there with same system and never experienced any issues. Same with everybody else. In fact the only person I know who suffered from water issue lived in Galway city. So while I'm sure it provides a belt and braces set up for water quality I'm wondering how much of a risk it is not to have one installed?



Don't assume anything where sticking ball floats are concerned. As I mentioned before get them sorted out before you get a softener, get a plumber in if need. They will play havoc with a water softener if you don't.

I am wondering why a small leak is so problematic for a water softener unit. There is a constant draw on water throughout the day with the kettle constantly on the boil so why is a cistern leak so much more problematic that a constant draw from taps etc? I would have thought that minor leaks would be much more problematic for a pressurised pump?



Please forgive the formatting - I can't seem to insert quote tags around text for some reason

aah yes

Plumbing can be re-arranged in 95% of cases to get the softened water you want where you want it, and leave a garden tap unsoftened in many cases, or go for a soft garden tap for wishing cars and windows if gardening not big on the list, or have two garden taps.

That's a good idea. I might install a softened 'external' tap inside the garage for washing the car. The existing external tap can then be used for everything else.

Mighty.


Private well water has a natural source and not being chlorinated and disinfected like municipal water so UV systems are always recommended for private wells. Unless your mains water scheme is on a perpetual boil water notice a UV is a bit overkill. So an RO steps in to cover the boil water risk and all the other spectrum of issues at question, be it lead in old pipes, chlorine, fluoride, trihalomethane, etc etc.

While I don't disagree with you that there is always a risk that private wells can become contaminated I wouldn't even consider installing a UV system if I wasn't installing a water softener. Again no one I know has such as system and I know plenty on private wells. My original home had a shallow well - was water level only 20 feet below surface - and the drinking water came from a storage tank which was manually filled once a day at most and we never had a problem with water. Parents (in their 80's) till live there with same system and never experienced any issues. Same with everybody else. In fact the only person I know who suffered from water issue lived in Galway city. So while I'm sure it provides a belt and braces set up for water quality I'm wondering how much of a risk it is not to have one installed?


Back in the old days eh ? All treatment is a choice, some go for aesthetics more than health concerns, some go more for health concerns than aesthetics. Some do both. Government environmental departs and city water departments now recognise the common practise of UV treatment as a none invasive none chemical approach to dealing with the spectrum of micro-organisms found in private well sourced waters, and costs have dropped to under half in buying and running UV systems as the most effective way of dealing with the likeliest way to die most quickly from waterborne infections, top of the list of water concerns. Scale removal is more of a luxury we are now getting used to as a common household appliance also as prices have halved and running costs are well under half than old timer models of the past.



Don't assume anything where sticking ball floats are concerned. As I mentioned before get them sorted out before you get a softener, get a plumber in if needed. They will play havoc with a water softener if you don't.

I am wondering why a small leak is so problematic for a water softener unit. There is a constant draw on water throughout the day with the kettle constantly on the boil so why is a cistern leak so much more problematic that a constant draw from taps etc? I would have thought that minor leaks would be much more problematic for a pressurised pump ?


A cup o' tea or two might get ye drinking a litre or two in the day, say 1 litre for the basic tea sipper, and 2 litres for the most fierce of tea imbibers about. Now if ye have a sticking ball float and a dribble in the toilet pan at anywhere from 1 to 3 litres a minute for 24 hours ongoing, that can mean easily 1000 to 4,000 litres per day per toilet. I have seen so many houses with many toilets seeping away, up to 6,000 and 8,000 litres a day all toilets combined.

Compare that to just 1 litre of a cup o' tea. Toilets use 30% or more of all household water use at the best of times in a watertight household, 100 to 200 litres in the busiest houses. A leaking toilet or two for one house can accelerate water losses to equal as much as a whole housing estate of 20 or more houses. Toilet leaks account for a massive, massive loss of water in our water infrastructure, and metering finally will address those losses, either built in on your water softener or out on the road with the council water meters.

Still a water softener only has a meter which can meter more than 1 litre a minute, but not a slow 1/2 or 3/4 a litre a minute dribble which can still add up to over 1,000 litres a day. The water passing slowly through a water meter turbine in a water softener without activating it, is known as "turbine creep" as water creeps past unchecked. Every drop, including yer 1 litre of tea, (or 2 litres if ye are a right fierce tea supping machine) and all yer lost water through the toilets is all softened by the water softener, every last drop up to a point, until the softener exhausts before the end of its cycle without knowing it and then no damage done, but hard water breakthrough can occur. If the leak was over 1 litre a minute, 1,400 litrea a day, the meter would keep up and the softener would just wash more often, then using salt at an extreme rate if it is a big leak, but all that leaked water will be softened, but wasted down the loo.



Please forgive the formatting - I can't seem to insert quote tags around text for some reason.

Tis ok.

creedp

aah yes wrote: »

Back in the old days eh ? All treatment is a choice, some go for aesthetics more than health concerns, some go more for health concerns than aesthetics. Some do both. Government environmental departs and city water departments now recognise the common practise of UV treatment as a none invasive none chemical approach to dealing with the spectrum of micro-organisms found in private well sourced waters, and costs have dropped to under half in buying and running UV systems as the most effective way of dealing with the likeliest way to die most quickly from waterborne infections, top of the list of water concerns. Scale removal is more of a luxury we are now getting used to as a common household appliance also as prices have halved and running costs are well under half than old timer models of the past.

As I said while I fully agree with you that installing an UV treatment system represents a belt and braces approach to the supply of clean and safe water, it is not really harking back to the good old days to suggest that based on, albeit not a representative sample, a large proportion of private wells in Ireland do not currently have such systems installed

Because of this it might be suggested that linking the current lack of these systems to a statement that having them is the most effective way of 'dealing with the likeliest way to die most quickly' from water borne infections might be a tad sensationalist? Having said all that, in the context of the size of the discretionary domestic spend for the average household, the cost of installing and running these system is relatively small so should not be automatically dismissed. I may consider installing one now when I am installing the softener but I doubt I would give it much consideration otherwise .. me probably bad for this!!

A cup o' tea or two might get ye drinking a litre or two in the day, say 1 litre for the basic tea sipper, and 2 litres for the most fierce of tea imbibers about. Now if ye have a sticking ball float and a dribble in the toilet pan at anywhere from 1 to 3 litres a minute for 24 hours ongoing, that can mean easily 1000 to 4,000 litres per day per toilet. I have seen so many houses with many toilets seeping away, up to 6,000 and 8,000 litres a day all toilets combined.

Compare that to just 1 litre of a cup o' tea. Toilets use 30% or more of all household water use at the best of times in a watertight household, 100 to 200 litres in the busiest houses. A leaking toilet or two for one house can accelerate water losses to equal as much as a whole housing estate of 20 or more houses. Toilet leaks account for a massive, massive loss of water in our water infrastructure, and metering finally will address those losses, either built in on your water softener or out on the road with the council water meters.

Still a water softener only has a meter which can meter more than 1 litre a minute, but not a slow 1/2 or 3/4 a litre a minute dribble which can still add up to over 1,000 litres a day. The water passing slowly through a water meter turbine in a water softener without activating it, is known as "turbine creep" as water creeps past unchecked. Every drop, including yer 1 litre of tea, (or 2 litres if ye are a right fierce tea supping machine) and all yer lost water through the toilets is all softened by the water softener, every last drop up to a point, until the softener exhausts before the end of its cycle without knowing it and then no damage done, but hard water breakthrough can occur. If the leak was over 1 litre a minute, 1,400 litrea a day, the meter would keep up and the softener would just wash more often, then using salt at an extreme rate if it is a big leak, but all that leaked water will be softened, but wasted down the loo.

Point taken about this issue but as someone can't stand waste, leaks would be a no no for me irrespective of whether a softener was in place or not. I take it though that leaks won't actually cause the softener to explode it will just result in waste and possibility that the system won't function properly.


Thanks again for all the information and advise. Makes the consideration of the many issues around this process so much easier.

jeannae

If you have a water softener company near your home, you can ask them to check your water quality before deciding which soft water heater is right for you. Personally, the best water softener I think is the Fleck 5600SXT 48,000 Grain Water Softener. I decided to buy it after checking a lot of information, and it did not disappoint me.

aah yes

Hi Jeanae

Splendid units those 5600SXT originals, but not many suppliers in Ireland, can't get the parts too easily as there are not many dealers (can't think of any at hand), but hopefully not needed for a while ?

If you are considering a water softener there are a range of top models in the upper echelons of super serious, super efficient, super long lasting, lowest cost to run, and the front runner is Clack WS1CI from 20 to 30 litre capacity, make sure it is not less than 10 litres, be concerned about 10 to 20 litres resin, but check your water hardness first.


Clack systems can in the extreme cases with the best companies offer ...

1 At least a 50 year life, reasonably serviced.

2 Reasonable servicing means a 10 yearly visit to check the basics, the cost of which €100 to €200, only once every 10 years. 5 years on wells. Annually on the worst wells (under 1% of dirty wells)

3 At around 20 to 30 years you may have to change resin, when using the best resins, say Lanxess S1567. Cost €200 plus ?

4 Running cost per year is €1 on electric and one bag of €7 Axal Pro salt per person. Water back wash costs are about 2% to 4% of supply water.

5 Dealer network for Clack is nationwide, the largest professional series of top end water softener, with well over 50 dealers. Fleck could be 1 or 2 dealers not too sure ?

6 For the original importer of Clack and trainer to all the big dealers from when the brand first got established over 12 to 15 years ago, ask a few firms in the industry and one name should stand out.

7 Pricing usually well under €1000 installed sometimes as low as some smaller models €499 supplied DIY. Best to get a pro installer with a full call out back up service and warranty, no quibble.

jeannae

jeannae wrote: »

If you have a water softener company near your home, you can ask them to check your water quality before deciding which soft water heater is right for you. Personally, the best water softener I think is the Fleck 5600SXT 48,000 Grain Water Softener. I decided to buy it after checking a lot of information, and it did not disappoint me.

In fact, the method of purchasing a water softener in an online store seems to be easier to implement.

OO7FITZY

posting this on a few threads in the hope of getting some feedback:

looking for help to diagnose this problem I have been having for a while with our water softner

the brine tank containing the salt seems to accumulate a brown film or some kind of sludge on the wall of the tank

I have hit the regen button and emptied the tank and washed it down a few times but the issue reappears a few weeks later

Water softer sludge 2.jpg

Water softer sludge 1.jpg

see attached pics

any idea what the cause is and potential fix and recommend someone who can service?