Destruction at Dalkey Quarry

Evil Phil

During the week ending Friday May 7th local authority workers using a mechanical digger caused significant damage to several of the most popular rock climbs in the West valley of Dalkey Quarry. Routes damaged and possibly destroyed include Majoong, Levitation, Spailpean and others in that general area. As work is continuing a major climbing venue in use for over 40 years faces destruction. Please email the council now to object to their disregard for this important amenity. The council complaints department can be reached at complaints@dlrcoco.ie
Please also contact Mountaineering Ireland info@mountaineering.ie and raise your concerns.

You can also join the facebook group here. And there's a discussion on climbing.ie here.

Cookie_Monster

what are they doing with the digger?

Evil Phil

Dunno. I know they're building paths around the quarry but why they needed to do that I'm not sure.

Evil Phil

Irish Times article - gives further details.

Also mountaineering.ie says that dlrcoco have stopped works, here's the article.

I would still email dlrcoco though.

Cookie_Monster

I climb up there the odd time but would not be overly bothered by this sort of thing to be honest.

It is a quarry after all and as long as there is a valid reason behind it I'm not that concerned. If they've stopped to talk about it all well and good. If the council cannot provide good reasons for it though then they should not be doing whatever they are but I'll wait and see before deciding what to make of it.

Evil Phil

Well it was a quarry but hasn't been active since 1917. The climbs that have been damaged are classic dalkey routes that have served generations of climbers, now they are gone. They should have consulted with Mountaineering Ireland before going ahead with this.

Cookie_Monster

Evil Phil wrote: »

They should have consulted with Mountaineering Ireland before going ahead with this.

from what I've read on the links it only seems to be the bottom metre or two. Hardly that big a deal in fairness. As long as the rock remains stable you could argue that it has simply created new altered routes without destroying the overall area...

Evil Phil

From what I've climbed the bottom of those routes is just as important as the rest of the routes particularly sailpin and mahjongg. In fact a lot of the routes that have been damaged had at least 1 star. This destruction totally changes the nature of the routes and could also make the rock unstable. I've heard reports of loose blocks on what were stable climbs up untill now.

To alter an existing route by chipping or whatever is totally unacceptable in the Irish climbing community, taking a digger to the bottom couple of meters is just mind boggling. Hence the outrage at what has happened. As a community Dalkey is very important to us.

Tells

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Hardly that big a deal in fairness. QUOTE]


You obviously have no idea about the history or culture of rock climbing!

Possibly the dumbest remark i've ever seen on Boards!

Please don't comment on issues you clearly don't know anything about.

Cookie_Monster

Tells wrote: »

You obviously have no idea about the history or culture of rock climbing!
Possibly the dumbest remark i've ever seen on Boards!
Please don't comment on issues you clearly don't know anything about.

:rolleyes:
yeah I do, have climbed for years.
Don't just take it out of context from the rest of my post. What I mean is it is only a small section of low level rock that has been removed. The whole place is just an abandoned quarry, regardless of what its used for now its not exactly a natural feature. If they are clearing the area to put in a BMX park as has been suggested here I think its entirely valid to do it. The park is for the enjoyment of all, not just climbers after all.

EDIT:

Irish Times wrote:

A spokeswoman for the council confirmed parks staff removed a section of the crag during “routine maintenance” on Friday. “There was an outcrop of rock which appeared to be unsafe and they removed it.” No deliberate interference with routes used by climbers had been intended, she said, adding that the council would be happy to talk to climbers about the maintenance work

seems reasonable enough.

Cookie_Monster

Some what resolved: from here

Stephen McMullan wrote: »

This is the unofficial version.

Karl Boyle, Helen Lawless, Calvin, Howard, Terry O'Connor, Terry O'Neill and myself met three reps from DLRCC with specific responsibility over Killiney Hill and Dalkey Quarry park. It was a very amiable meeting. The best result was that we now have the introductions and contacts. We've told the park reps who we are and what we do and voiced our concerns over the developments in the Quarry. We've agreed on a much higher level of communication going forward in relation to developing the Quarry channelled through MI on our side. Specifically the debris under Mahjonng slab will be removed under climber observation on Wed and the climbers will clean the rock scar. The loose block has already been removed by a climber. I'm confident we've stopped any re-occurence of this type of incident in future but really its just the start of a long term engagement with the council/parks on managing the Quarry.

adagio

Yes it is an abandoned quarry but what relevance does that have to the idiotic unnecessary destruction of the rockface? Are you suggesting that because it's man made it's irrelevant what changes are made to it now?
The quarry has an important place in Irish climbing history and should be protected where possible from idiotic actions.
If you claim to know the quarry you will know that there was no danger present to anyone where the destruction was carried out, therefore the Co.Council's claims are the standard reactionary spin.
Furthermore, the 'work' the digger driver carried out actually left a block in place that had to be removed by a climber for safety reasons.
We (climbing community) either act as best we can to protect our passion or we sit on the sideline producing passive argument that are irrelevant.

Baluba

Did they manage to get any bolts in whilst working on the rock face?

Cookie_Monster

there's newly named routes already anyway. "up the kyber" I think one is called

expectationlost

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

from what I've read on the links it only seems to be the bottom metre or two. Hardly that big a deal in fairness.

yeah and the bottom part could be the best part of the climb!

if you look at the photos theres loads of rock taken down not just one flake, if it was about safety and as the others say they wouldn't have left the rocks there for people to fall on.

whats going paths? there are already paths,and on that connects with the upper hill and the stairs they've cleared that before no problem, a bmx park?, don't see any plans for that online,there building one in ballyogan, i see mountain bikers use killiney hill but a bmx park dalkey quarry wtf, i hope these this work isn't part of this 'the metals' plan, cos there are no details on that.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/TheMetals


these paths are total overkill,there too wide, they don't even go anywhere http://picasaweb.google.com/stephen.mcmullan/DalkeyQuarryWorks952010#5469230614979428834 http://picasaweb.google.com/stephen.mcmullan/DalkeyQuarryWorks952010#5469232010529638338 are the expecting a roman legion to pass through?

is there any details on the work there doing in quarry, i hear they've been doing work up there for while i thought it was just clearing scrub, i know the council have always maintained the area but its a little bit of 'wild' near dublin thats whats special about it. don't pretty it up.

i hear barry andrews td was down there, i have no idea what the point in him going there was it should be a councillor and the council staff

this is like those builders who come the middle of the night to knock down heritage buildings to the build something new

Tells

expectationlost wrote: »

yeah and the bottom part could be the best part of the climb!

if you look at the photos there loads of rock taken down not just one flake, if it was about safety and as the others say they wouldn't have left the rocks there for people to fall on.

whats going paths? there are already paths,and on that connects with the upper hill and the stairs they've cleared that before no problem, a bmx park?, don't see any plans for that online,there building one in ballyogan, i see mountain bikers use killiney hill but in bmx park dalkey quarry wtf, i hope these this work isn't part of this 'the metals' plan, cos there are no details on that.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/TheMetals




is there any details on the work there doing in quarry, i hear they've been doing work up there for while i thought it was just clearing scrub, i know the council have always maintained the area but its a little bit of 'wild' near dublin thats whats special about it. don't pretty it up.

i hear barry andrews td was down there, i have no idea what the point in him going there was it should be a councillor and the council staff

this is like those builders who come the middle of the night to knock down heritage buildings so the build something new

Barry Andrews was there beacuase all of the local ministers were contacted by the climbing community to do something about it and he was one of the two to turn up in all fairness to him..

adagio

As already touched-on, one of the wonderful things about Dalkey Quarry is that it is a small envelope of wilderness in the city, not only enjoyed/cherished by climbers but by many others who come up to take in the breath taking views.
One of the joys of climbing is that we remove ourselves from the everyday hustle and bustle of daily life and loose ourselves in the next move and the silence. I think this wonderful space will be ruined by bmx tracks..etc.
Why do we need to fill every space with commercialism?
If development 'has' to take place then let it be an integration rather than an invasive space filling exercise.

Climbing is more than just a sport; '....climbing and similar activities should be strongly encouraged, especially in young people. They offer an arena for developing virtues we sorely need, virtues that are hard to come by in a society that frequently encourages vices that inhibit the flourishing of individuals and communities.'

Cookie_Monster

adagio wrote: »

Climbing is more than just a sport; '....climbing and similar activities should be strongly encouraged, especially in young people. They offer an arena for developing virtues we sorely need, virtues that are hard to come by in a society that frequently encourages vices that inhibit the flourishing of individuals and communities.'

Its a sport, not a damn hippy meet for god's sake.

Never mind the extensive damage climbing has done to the quarry over the last 50+ years that everyone seems to be ignoring here. Put in the context of that the removal of a small amount of rock by the council is tiny.

adagio

Its a sport, not a damn hippy meet for god's sake.

I think it's fair to suggest that rock climbing introduces the climber to more than just physical exertion. If you see climbing as 'just' a sport than that's fine, but I think for many there is a demanding psychological aspect that can enhance one's life. And for many there is also a philosophical context that can contribute to the formation of values that are sadly lacking in our society.

Never mind the extensive damage climbing has done to the quarry over the last 50+ years that everyone seems to be ignoring here. Put in the context of that the removal of a small amount of rock by the council is tiny.

In one breath you suggest that because the quarry is man made then further alterations are acceptable then in another you deem that climbing over the last 50 years has caused 'excessive damage'!!
Your argument is all-over-the-shop.
It seems simple to me; the damage as caused by the Co. Council was reckless and hazardous. If left unchecked then the 'minor' damage caused may lead to the destruction of important classical climbing routes as further work is carried out.
A.

Cookie_Monster

adagio wrote: »

In one breath you suggest that because the quarry is man made then further alterations are acceptable then in another you deem that climbing over the last 50 years has caused 'excessive damage'!!

my point is why do people find it acceptable for climbers to damage the place but not the council, its a very hypocritical view point.

expectationlost

gradual wear and tear over years from good use versus heavy machinery.

Cookie_Monster

expectationlost wrote: »

gradual wear and tear over years from good use versus heavy machinery

wear and tear
removal of rocks
removal of loose material; stones and gravel
clearing of vegetation
destruction of habitat based on all of the above
increased littering
increased erosion
impact marks from gear

it all adds up in the end...

adagio

I think the point you are making is tenuous as best.
The modification of the rock-face by climbers over a 50+ year period v's the ramming of a digger bucket into the quarry face for 'safety reasons.'
Absolute hog-wash!!
If I may; your point seems to be that the quarry is man made through a process of modifying the granite; climbers have further modified the granite via their activities over the last 50+ years; therefore the Co. Council worker who raked the bucked of a digger across the granite is acceptable as it's a continuation of the modification of the granite??
If I'm representing your argument accurately then I'll reply:
The quarry was developed for a purpose, i.e. the supply of granite and it had an economic/social value. As time moved on, the quarry was no longer necessary nor viable so it closed. As the interest in climbing developed in Ireland the quarry provided enthusiasts with the opportunity to climb within the city confines. Subsequently, the quarry now has close to 300 routes that have been developed since 1942. Dalkey Quarry now is one of the most treasured climbing sites in Eire.
Last week, a person in a digger decided to rake the bucket of the machine across the granite wall causing serious damage. More than likely the driver of the vehicle had no idea of the fact that the granite face he/she 'modified' is precious to the climbing community.
Can one really compare the creation of the quarry, the subsequent development of the venue as a climbing hot-spot and the absolutely unnecessary actions of last week?
Simply put, the action last week was incredibly misinformed and the climbing community is rightly annoyed.
So, surely the question now is what are the plans for the quarry and how can the climbing community have a positive input as they develop.
My preference would be an Irish Heritage Site focusing on the history of the quarry, the people who worked there and the social/economic impact on the area; combined w/the development of climbing in the quarry, the people who have shaped the climbing in the quarry.
Let's preserve what we have rather than sitting on our hands.
A.

Cookie_Monster

I have no problem with the council doing what they did if the reasons are valid, they own the land and are required to maintain it. HOWEVER it is becoming increasing unlikely that there were valid reason for it in which case I don't agree with it.

BUT I think the massive backlash and over-reaction by the climbing community is a bit much. As you say there are over 300 routes and less than 10 of these have been affected. 3% is hardly something to be so overly worried about, never mind that there will be numerous new routes created to replace these.

I also agree that the place should probably have some sort of protection placed upon it in regards to climbing activities but as yet it doesn't so the council don't have to listen to a word climbers say.
Yet in fairness to them they have done and have tried to be accommodating going forward. More is needed to be done obviously by both sides without getting entrenched though.

They could have easily looked the other way and banned climbing due to H&S (the usual rubbish) which iirc has come up before, I remember hearing rumours about it years ago. There is a steady stream of serious accidents and callouts required in the quarry and this is the only justification they'd need. *EDIT: not that I'd ever agree with that*

expectationlost

you don't care about the lack of consultation we do, we care about the classic climbs, you don't, you seem to spend an awful lot of time arguing for things you don't even believe. We dislike ignorant people with heavy machinery, you're not bothered.

http://twitter.com/FitzStephen (lab) seems the closest councillor, apart from the (john)baily clan

Cookie_Monster

expectationlost wrote: »

you don't care about the lack of consultation we do

I don't get consulted when the council plant trees or cut the grass on the green outside even though I use it either. :rolleyes:

You have no right to be consulted unless you live in the area and should be grateful the council are now giving you that right out of goodwill.


And no I don't really care, storm in a teacup. Minimal damage done, nothing closed, no access lost => not a big deal

Evil Phil

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Its a sport, not a damn hippy meet for god's sake.

I'm surprised that anybody claiming to be a climber would say that. I accept that you feel the destruction isn't a big deal, but I don't think you're in a position to stake a claim to issues affecting the Irish climbing community. You don't seem to understand the values at the core of climbing.

Trying to shift the focus of this argument to health and safety aspects isn't a valid response either, this is about the destruction of something that is really important to us. Mahjonng was my first VS lead as it was for many east coast climbers, so it holds a very special place in my heart. It's not as important to me as Levitation though, believe it or not, climbing Levitation is where I first met my wife. Those two routes are gone now. There's hundreds of stories like mine, to some climbing may just be a sport to climbers it is so much more, that's the reason for the uproar. I'll point out that Levitation is 60 years old this year, and that the best move on the climb was at the start.

DLRCOCO are aware of the importance of the quarry to the climbing community, they've worked with us before. The residents have a great relationship with us. Unfortunately the damage done is irreversible, fortunately it's been stopped there because the COCO, unlike you, understand our point of view.

On the subject of littering the quarry, its not the climbers, it's usually cider parties. Sure they may be one or two irresponsible climbers who do this but the Irish Mountaineering Club organize an annual clean up of the quarry to remove all the litter. That's climbers cleaning it up, doing on they're own for free, not the county council.

To say that climbers damage the place is pointless, we don't, they're may be small inch long scars from gear but you'd have to be on the rock face at the exact point to view them. In fact the only example I can think of is the bolt place at the top of Paradise Lost two years ago. It was removed by climbers. The minute impact of our gear on the rock doesn't remove the enjoyment of the quarry from anybody, the damage done by the digger does.

destruction of habitat based on all of the above

There is (well before the works started anyway) a brilliant little ecosystem in the quarry with many examples of Irish wildlife to be found there. Decades of climbing hasn't affected this. When the peregrine falcons nest we keep clear of them to make sure their nest is undisturbed. You'll need to provide proof for that argument to carry weight.

There is a steady stream of serious accidents and callouts required in the quarry ...

I am aware that there has been a couple of serious accidents in the quarry of the last few years but a steady stream? I don't think so, I may be wrong but you'll need to provide proof for me to accept that I am.

One final point, for somebody who doesn't care about this you're putting forward some very heated arguments.

Evil Phil

I'll also point out for those that do care, DLRCOCO acted in the interest of public safety so I can't fault them there, but I do feel they should have consulted Mountaineering Ireland first. However, the are going to work with Mountaineering Ireland and local climbers going forward.

MI are pressing to for DLRCOCO recognize the quarry as a heritage site for the climbing community. It's seems that it has come to an amicable ending. Thanks to all of you who pressed for this.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/CCDA/Dalkey_Quarry.htm

http://www.mountaineering.ie/news/viewdetails.asp?ID=444

And the facebook group:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=687821016#!/group.php?gid=109450665765423

adagio

+1

Mahjonng was my first (vs) lead (only three moths ago).
And regardless of what I climb in the future I'll always remember fighting to stay on Mahjonng and succeeding.
It ain't just granite anymore, it's a clean line or a problem to solve.:D
A.

Cookie_Monster

Evil Phil wrote: »

I'm surprised that anybody claiming to be a climber would say that. I accept that you feel the destruction isn't a big deal, but I don't think you're in a position to stake a claim to issues affecting the Irish climbing community. You don't seem to understand the values at the core of climbing.

I climb for sport, cos it's enjoyable and physically challenging.
Maybe I don't understand the values, maybe I picked some up from 20 years + of scouting and assume they should be integral to everything you do and not specifically climbing or maybe I'm over-reacting because everyone seems to be getting over excited in this thread.

I am aware that there has been a couple of serious accidents in the quarry of the last few years but a steady stream? I don't think so, I may be wrong but you'll need to provide proof for me to accept that I am.

2-3 a year is a steady stream in my book, it would take less than that to close off many other areas such as cliffs. I have no proof other than what I've seen or heard but that number I would say is realistic based on that much.

I've already said I don't agree with the over the top H&S nonesense we have in this country impacting on everything we do so much but its a very easy way for gov / council to bring in silly bans and justify them without rebuttle which could so easily happened in Dalkey over the years.

One final point, for somebody who doesn't care about this you're putting forward some very heated arguments.

Somebody has to try to argue some perspective on this.

In reality very very little rock overall was damaged, as many routes as were lost will probably created. if they were threatening to close the quarry or pull down entire sections of cliff then I would care but over something so minor, I think not.

What if this rock collapsed and killed a few climbers (or others)? Then there would be uproar agasint the council for not maintaining the area and the knee jerk reaction from locals and the council would be much worse than what happened.

If the council had asked MI first the arguement would either be dragging on or there would be an internal war in MI between those outraged and those agreeing it had to be done. As it is, its been done and MI & the council have reached an agreement out of it so in the long run it may even be more beneficial due to the meeting and contact established because of it, who knows

another world

I´ve only just started climbing in Dalkey (but climbing for a good bit) and it feels like a great place. Such a shame to see this but the reaction by Mountaineering Ireland has been excellent from what I´ve read. Fair play to them.

Oh, and climbing a sport? Not in my opinion, but that´s a whole other debate!

Tells

What are the chances? Mahjong was my first VS! It's my favourite climb in the quarry.

Some cracking replies from adagio, evil phil and expectationlost. You guys summed it up what climbing means to climbers.

As I quickly noticed and pointed out in my first reply in this thread, Cookie Monster hasn't a clue and unfortunatly seems to need to voice his opinion on this matter.

On another note, I got more replies from ministers and the CoCo stating that better relationships have been built in the planning and goings on in the quarry from now on so this has to be a good thing I suppose.

Cracking day for a climb..

Cookie_Monster

Tells wrote: »

As I quickly noticed and pointed out in my first reply in this thread, Cookie Monster hasn't a clue and unfortunately seems to need to voice his opinion on this matter.
.

you had 3 replies in this, two saying I don't have a clue. Yet you've offered no argument of your own on any of it.

I know exactly what I'm talking about, just because you may not agree is not reason to just nonchalantly pass smart ass comments :mad:

Tells

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Its a sport, not a damn hippy meet for god's sake.

Speaking of smart ass comments :rolleyes:

expectationlost

53 minutes http://www.dlrcoco.public-i.tv/site/player/pl_compact.php?a=40266&t=0&m=wm&l=en_GB#the_data_area

one flake as dealt with at the time, so no planning was giving to it at all, if you went around the quarry i sure there they'd plenty of things you could lever off with crowbar, doesn't mean you should.

people over on the mountaineering board saying this is what happens when you don't pick up the rubbish, huh nothing to do with that, its usual ignorant council over kill on things they don't understand

they'd say they did the general work to "open up the quarry" in consultation with dalkey tidy towns and community council, so then not in consultation with the climbing groups who use just as much.

don't think the question of lack of consultation was satisfactionally answered don't know why all the congratulations

i dont really see the point in those humongous paths around the quarry bases they don't go anywhere, it'd take you two minutes to walk around the small quarry, if you want to walk the up the hill walk up the hill, if want a gentle walk on even ground go next door into kiliney park