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"The Friends Zone"
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10-05-2010 11:48am#1Hey, I was supposed to get this written on friday tho I got distracted...(typical) Its a friday/weekend.
"Friends zone" :eek: from what I've gathered it goes booth ways men and women hand in hand have experenced it once myabe twice, maybe more but Im curious to get another veiw on the perspective a more venus opion thaughts/ experence then the mars (Which is in the TGC so you can cheack that out to.)But it would be cool to get booth ends, Im not nuatraly blaming ladys for anything beacuse i feel the friend ship issue works from booth way and well and it takes too to tango so im not pointing a finger at women like the evil monkey in fammily guy.
Right ladys
I gots some questions for you :eek:.
Have you ever experenced the friendzone, either been in it or been the unlucky lady that had to deal with it?
how did you feel about things when he or maybe she dropped the bombshell on you ? angry, betrayed etc...
How did you deal with it ? Ignore it/hope it goes away?
are you still friends with the guy you liked or did'nt like, " freindzone"?
Thanks
Oh Mods i asked for thread a pproval as this is The Ladys Lounge but il be gone now Looking forward to reading your posts ladys.. Thanks.0
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59144
I would say its how people see things. We all tend to view others through the prism of ourselves. IMHO Few enough are capable of objective reasoning when it comes to attraction.Is that really the way guys think about these things?
Agreed.Because yes, it is naive in the extreme, not to say short-sighted and self-defeating as well.
Again IMHO I think men have a slight advantage here. Confidence in a man is a defining attractant, social power in a man is a defining attractant, vigour and personal drive is a defining attractant in a man. These are much less an attractant in a woman. A man may go out with an unconfident woman, with little social power and no real personal drive if she's gorgeous. Much less so than a woman would in the same shoes. Certainly not as a long term prospect(indeed many men maybe actually dubious about confident, driven women, but that's another thread..How can you change whether you are attractive to someone or not? I really don't think you can, or not to any significant degree, anyway. The attraction is there or it is not there.
). Obviously these are extremes Im talking about here. Most people operate at a similar level to themselves, but the extremes can be enlightening. So in that case a man changing his approach is kinda similar to a woman going mad in the gym to approximate the cultural ideal. Only the man's struggle is more internal in a way. If he also goes the gym route, he increases that in a big way.
Well he would be a typical human in that he likes the attention.I remember meeting up with a male friend (Irish guy) and a female friend of his (Latina) when I visited the city he was living in. The girl was really nice and showed me some sightseeing spots etc. Once she was out of earshot, my friend told me she was after him in a major way, and that she is kind of hanging around "until he sees sense", but that it was never going to happen, cos as he said, "us guys don't function that way". He didn't fancy her and that was that. So, in your view, would he be a typical guy, or not?
Yes and no. He would probably shag her and keep shagging her until she brought in the long term commitment thing.Cos obviously, if he knew that nothing that the girl was going to do was going to change his mind about her, then he would equally well know that nothing he does for a girl he fancies and who doesn't fancy him back is going to change her mind about him?
OK so we're talking about friendzone here. That's the male version. There is also Bonkzone(tm), the female version and the other side of the same coin. Basically the coin that says "yes I'll keep you around for my own purposes, but we're not going to be a couple". In the male friendzone version he supplies the shoulder to lean on, but no other part of her anatomy is in play. In the female Bonkzone(tm), she supplies the other parts of he anatomy, but gives up the shoulder to lean on. In both situations the other person is using the one looking for more. The person looking for more doesnt get it. IMHO the ladies lounge thread should have been called Bonkzone(tm). I suspect if it was more women would be seeing eye to eye with the Gentlemans lounge thread from the other side.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I call shenanigans, I dont buy the whole 'girl as the innocent victim of the friend zone'. IME the girl is just as manipulative if not more.
The girls that Ive seen with friends-zone guys know just how to give off just enough mixed signals that they keep the guy hanging in there, thinking there is hope while at the same time being able to say "what I thought we were just friends". The girl is defintely aware of the situation, but they would never admit to it, even when their own (girl) friends point it out.
Its defintely a 2 way street, but if I was to say anyone in it had more power it would defintely be the girl, the guy just tends to be clueless/naive to the female relationships. In the end the guy ends up feeling guilty and confused and the girl feigns just enough surprise/shock to come across as the victim but from what Ive seen it doesnt take her long to get over it.
Girls, if you've got a really close, single, straight, male friend that you can call up whenever you like, talk to about anything and will always be there for you, well chances are he's in love with you (and chances also are that on some level you know.)
Brave man indeed. Seriously though, it depends how obvious you are. Some blokes can be so obvious in there feelings it can actually be embarassing to look at. In that scenario you would have to be pretty dim not to realise how the guy feels about you.
That's the typical stereotype of the bloke in the friend zone, some sad case whose life revolves around the object of his affection. Furthermore they make it as plain as day, even the blind can realise what's going on.
In reality however, the friend zone doesn't always consist of the male who wears his heart on his sleeve. In that scenario I wouldn't expect the female to realise how they guy feels. It's all about how much pride and dignity the bloke has I suppose.0 -
Brave man indeed.
Hahaha, *runs for cover* but it had to be said.
If a girl was paying a lot of attention to me (dont laugh, it happens), I would know she was interested in being more than just friends, I dont need to her to come right out and say it. In these situations I make it very clear that I dont want anymore by not sharing my inner most thoughts and feelings with her.
I think the 'shock' of finding a really close male friend has feelings for a girl either BS or naive in the extreme0 -
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For some strange reason, every time this becomes the point of discussion, the picture of the socially timid male losing out to the cocksure male is always illustrated. And it's perfectly captured by this annoying song;
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For some strange reason, every time this becomes the point of discussion, the picture of the socially timid male losing out to the cocksure male is always illustrated. And it's perfectly captured by this annoying song;
I take your point, Lz, but I am also very sick of the "socially timid" males label those who are successful with women as "cocksure", "bad boys" and the like. It smacks strongly of bitterness, tbh. The women who genuinely do go for men who treat them like shlt really aren't in a place to be in a healthy relationship, so they need to be discounted from the whole equation. The other women - women who go for confident, socially skilled men - shouldn't be criticised for overlooking men who don't make their feelings clear, or make themselves available to them. Are we meant to *only* seek out the men who don't express an interest, *just in case* they might like us? It simply does not work that way.
This sounds very personal attack-y and I don't mean it to, at all... but the whole "women always go for bad boys" crap is just that... crap. Silly girls may go for bad boys, but women go for confident, self-assured men. Nobody has to act like a prlck to get a girlfriend, as I often see people implying.
As for the friendzone issue, Wibbs called it with his Friendzone/Bonkzone idea. As far as I can see, there are two ways to be in the Friend/Bonkzone -- either someone is manipulating you into being there for them emotionally/sexually with no romantic payoff; or you're putting yourself in that position in the hope of something more, despite quite clear messages that nothing's going to happen -- either because you don't have the confidence to make a move, or you "don't want to lose the friendship, waah".
And as far as I can see, both of these situations are entirely under a person's own control. Situation 1? Walk away. Situation 2? Walk away. Simple. No friendzone, no grief. It all boils down to basic self-confidence. Either value yourself enough to make the move and risk getting rejected, or see through their crap and finish the relationship.0 -
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I think there's very little patience in the wooing game these days, I think if you don't manage to grab someone's attention immediately with a flashy personality you are at a considerable disadvantage. A seemingly timid male could well be confident and self assured, but perhaps in certain social situations he doesn't manage to express this aspect of himself all that well.
Women want a Tony Stark; someone who can not only electrify you but everyone in the room. If the guy sits quietly in the corner he's no use.
Totally untrue -- just ask my boyfriend. I don't think he'd be hurt if I classed him as one of these "socially timid" males, he freely admits himself to being dense about when a girl fancies him. He was in my bed with a half-naked me wrapped around him before he copped it in this instance.
The difference is, he made it known, in his own way, that he was interested. Took him a few months, but he got there eventually You know the dude yourself, he's hardly "electrifying" or "cocksure" by anyone's standards; but he's plenty of use to me, sitting quietly in the corner or not.
It pisses me off, however, that if I hadn't picked up on his (actually very subtle) advances, *I* am somehow at fault for 'overlooking a nice guy in favour of a bad boy'. As if he'd have no role to play in not finding a way to make his intentions known. It'd be MY fault for not reading his mind and pursuing him anyway because "women want bad boys".Oh very much so, but the fact is whether we like it or not, we all make judgements. Just some are more aware or honest about it. The same timid guy may make a judgement on a woman's attraction triggers "she's too fat/skinny/tall/short/blonde/dark" delete as applicable. Yea but how is a woman to know? Like Shelly and other women have suggested they're not mind readers. Even if a very handsome bloke doesnt make any moves or express interest, they may give him more time, but that will get old real quick too.
Exactly. I think there's a lot of miscommunication going on here, tbh, and people failing to understand the opposite sex. Men (in general, in my opinion) fail to take into account the massive self-loathing of women in general. For a lot of women -- in fact, the majority, I'd wager -- they consider themselves undateable. That nobody would want to be with them, that nobody fancies them. Of course, for a guy who wants that girl, he's thinking that she knows that EVERY guy wants to be with her. That's not the case. Women do not go around under the assumption that she could have any man she wanted, firstly because it's not true, and secondly because as a gender, we're fairly crippled when it comes to self esteem. There'll always be someone prettier, thinner, more tanned, better dressed. We don't just assume that every guy is interested in us because we're so hot and awesome -- I think guys forget this bit. We don't believe that about ourselves. We don't see ourselves the way men see us.
We *don't* have our pick of ALL guys and pick the "bad boys" every time. We have our pick of the guys who show interest -- and unfortunately, a large proportion of men who are capable of expressing this are the bad boys you speak of.
But if you're not in, you can't win. And I don't see how that is the fault of women. And it bugs me that it's made out to be the fault of women.0 -
Nothing beats a good old boards discussion.Oh very much so, but the fact is whether we like it or not, we all make judgements. Just some are more aware or honest about it. The same timid guy may make a judgement on a woman's attraction triggers "she's too fat/skinny/tall/short/blonde/dark" delete as applicable.
I can be content in the effort I made though. I never make judgements without being informed. I give a person every chance, I do not make a definitive judgement based on one interaction. I try my best to make something work, which was my whole point. Whereas in comparison, too many people are dismissed instantly because they are not flash.
If they make the effort, they'll have a definitive answer. This falls into the whple notion that the man should do the whole work and if he fails, well tough luck.Yea but how is a woman to know? Like Shelly and other women have suggested they're not mind readers. Even if a very handsome bloke doesnt make any moves or express interest, they may give him more time, but that will get old real quick too. I had a mate who was a very good looking man. Women would approach him on a regular basis, but he wasnt that successful with the ladies. He was very timid and non committal. So even though he had the opportunities, he couldnt follow through. His mate who had a face like a slapped arse had much more success, with more women and better looking women. He also sustained relationships. The good looking guy nearly always ended up dumped or cheated on. This taught me very early on that there was a difference in the genders there. Good looking women I knew had more success just by standing there. Their social confidence or not, had surprisingly little to do with it.
Why should the man have to make all the effort? Maybe if the man was given enough clear signals, he would make his move. But that's unacceptable, women want their men to be invincible. The onus is always on the man to make something clear, and if he doesn't he's seen as a weakling, what a crock of ****.
We still land at a fallacy here. My point is that a man could be uber-confident, just not within certain social situations. The "competitiveness" between men is non-existent if women don't have the patience to judge a man upon a sustained period of time.I agree. I think like I said before we live in different times in many ways. Yes women always ran a sellers market, but in the pre feminist days, men simply held more power(financial/social) and even timid men could expect to get someone. Now its more all bets are off. The more equal we become(a great thing), the more competitive we may become too(a not so great thing). Like in the other thread about women competing with other women, men are competing with other men. Men still have one advantage though. Maybe not as 19 year olds, but they can earn more attraction as they move through life. Their attraction is not so much set on their physical appearance(though thats part of it) like it is for women. A plain man with a great confidant personality will have more success at 28 than a plain woman the same, all things being equal.
As you said, it all depends on perspective, and right now at the age I'm at, women are influenced more by flashnesss rather than maturity.Yes and no. I think thats somewhat of a fallacy and very dependent on age too. A 19 year old woman may be attracted to that as by association it gives her confidence she may be lacking. That changes. At 30 the more average "beige" guy has much more of a chance of sustaining a long term life relationship than the "flash harry". The former is seen as a more stable bet and less likely to stray too.Totally untrue -- just ask my boyfriend. I don't think he'd be hurt if I classed him as one of these "socially timid" males, he freely admits himself to being dense about when a girl fancies him. He was in my bed with a half-naked me wrapped around him before he copped it in this instance.
Congrats Shelley, that makes you the woman to whom I am referring to, a woman with patience. I bet your ass that you are chuffed you had that patience in spite of your BF's cluelessness.
A few months, ya, so you had patience with him yeah? Again, that's what I'm referring to. You gave yourself the opportunity to know the bloke, too many times the bloke is dismissed after a day never mind a month.The difference is, he made it known, in his own way, that he was interested. Took him a few months, but he got there eventually You know the dude yourself, he's hardly "electrifying" or "cocksure" by anyone's standards; but he's plenty of use to me, sitting quietly in the corner or not.
I didn't claim that, what I did claim is that the bloke may have been hurt from previous experience. Thus, god forbid you had to put in an effort w youith a bloke you liked. How dare he not be aggressive in persuing because of previous damaging experience.It pisses me off, however, that if I hadn't picked up on his (actually very subtle) advances, *I* am somehow at fault for 'overlooking a nice guy in favour of a bad boy'. As if he'd have no role to play in not finding a way to make his intentions known. It'd be MY fault for not reading his mind and pursuing him anyway because "women want bad boys".0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
While I normally agree with your good self I wouldnt agree with this. Not to that degree anyway, or at least from a different angle. Yes women can be self esteem wastelands, but even when they are I have found them a lot more discerning than men of the same level of insecurity. I've known and know women who are approaching the cultural "ideal" and who have more issues than Time magazines back catalogue, who are very discerning and indeed judgemental about their partner choices. "oh my thighs are huuuuge" + "Oh no I wouldnt go near him". Ditto for women who may not be the cultural "ideal". Now men can and do act like that, but seem to me anyway, much less competent when it comes to balancing that with their choices.Exactly. I think there's a lot of miscommunication going on here, tbh, and people failing to understand the opposite sex. Men (in general, in my opinion) fail to take into account the massive self-loathing of women in general. For a lot of women -- in fact, the majority, I'd wager -- they consider themselves undateable. That nobody would want to be with them, that nobody fancies them.
That I agree with. In 90% of cases the man is left to do the approach, so the guy who approaches more will obviously get more responses, regardless of his suitability.We *don't* have our pick of ALL guys and pick the "bad boys" every time. We have our pick of the guys who show interest -- and unfortunately, a large proportion of men who are capable of expressing this are the bad boys you speak of.
Agreed.But if you're not in, you can't win. And I don't see how that is the fault of women. And it bugs me that it's made out to be the fault of women.Nothing beats a good old boards discussion.
Well then you're quite unusual. I would say people make a judgement pretty damn quickly. Plus cynic that I am I would say that being non judgemental is often the reserve of those most afraid to be judged.I can be content in the effort I made though. I never make judgements without being informed. I give a person every chance, I do not make a definitive judgement based on one interaction. I try my best to make something work, which was my whole point. Whereas in comparison, too many people are dismissed instantly because they are not flash.
If I could concieve and carry a child until I gave birth I might want that. Doesnt matter, I cant have it. Its just the way its is. Ditto with men having to make the first move in most cases. It is what it is and with few exceptions it's not likely to change that much. In pretty much all cultures over all times its been like this. It appears to be somewhat hardwired.If they make the effort, they'll have a definitive answer. This falls into the whple notion that the man should do the whole work and if he fails, well tough luck.
Why should the man have to make all the effort?
I dunno, IMH anyway, women aren't really looking for invincibility, they're looking for emotional stability and social maturity(with a side order of looks). Again IM(mad)H I suspect its evolved that way. Women purposely make subtle signals to test a potential mates ability to read them and act upon them which is a fair judge of social maturity. They're also looking for a man that other women feel good around and would be attracted to. Most men will tell you that if you have a girlfriend you tend to get more female attention. Its a running joke. Ladies are like jobs, much easier to get another, if you have one already.Maybe if the man was given enough clear signals, he would make his move. But that's unacceptable, women want their men to be invincible. The onus is always on the man to make something clear, and if he doesn't he's seen as a weakling, what a crock of ****. Again for good reasons.
Yes he could be king of his particular castle, or simply a slow burner.We still land at a fallacy here. My point is that a man could be uber-confident, just not within certain social situations.
There are cultural elements too. We're in a fast paced world, with fewer gender role divisions, so speed is part of that. Even so, any study Ive read shows men and women come up with a yes/no/maybe within seconds of meeting. Men do it even faster BTW and more based on physical appearance. Women say maybe in their heads a lot more and give the personality a few minutes longer. It depends on context too. A slow burning quiet guy who is a decent sort will simply fail in a nightclub environment. As will a plainer woman who is a decent sort. That environment is predicated on looks and external stimuli like brashness. Conversation is limited so what do people have to go on? What does fascinate me is the lack of other mating outlets in our culture. Especially in Ireland. You can chat up a woman on the street or in the supermarket much more easily in other cultures. Here you're more likely to be looked at as a weirdo.The "competitiveness" between men is non-existent if women don't have the patience to judge a man upon a sustained period of time.
Probably yea. Much in the same way that many young men are influenced by flashness in the form of looks than maturity too though. At the brass tacks level we will all, men and women, look to maximise the quality of our mating partners. The same non judgemental quiet guy, if transformed overnight into a socially confident better looking guy, would up his "standards". I have no doubt about that. Ive seen it happen over time with guys who came out of their shell and improved themselves. The women they went for at 18 they would barely regard as options at 28. I've seen it with women too. Where they've had a major makeover in the gym or whatever and their "standards" go up.As you said, it all depends on perspective, and right now at the age I'm at, women are influenced more by flashnesss rather than maturity.
Yes it does happen, but equally Ive seen men dismiss good women even more quickly, because they didnt match up to what they defined as socially acceptable in looks.A few months, ya, so you had patience with him yeah? Again, that's what I'm referring to. You gave yourself the opportunity to know the bloke, too many times the bloke is dismissed after a day never mind a month.
Again it could be a way of weeding out immature men. A man who is damaged by previous experience is not such a good bet long term. If this has crippled him enough to make a diff, then it shows he may not have a handle on his emotions yet.I didn't claim that, what I did claim is that the bloke may have been hurt from previous experience. Thus, god forbid you had to put in an effort w youith a bloke you liked. How dare he not be aggressive in persuing because of previous damaging experience.
And men dont do this? Eh hello. A man with a gorgeous girlfriend is going to show her off a lot quicker than a man with a plainer woman he's socially self conscious of.Long story short; someone they can show off.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Ouch, and damn. I wash my hands of what I said yesterday because of, er, celebrating finishing the college semester a bit too hard. :P
Look, honestly, in regards to the "friend zone", people should be braver. If they want something more then they should not let fear of rejection get in the way. That just reflects badly on you because it suggests you lack self-esteem, and that you feel inferior to the object of your affection. I can respect someone who dares to love more than the person who let's fear rule him.
That's my true feelings on the subject. Jesus, never drink and post. :pac: 0
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