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NAMA, but for the "little guy"

  • 08-05-2010 09:12PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭


    I'm surprised this hasn't come up. I saw an advert this afternoon for RTE's new Aftershock programs and on it, a NAMA for the home owner was mentioned. Such a creation was also brought up on a recent frontline. The following links can be used to inform:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/0315/1224266293224.html

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/create-a-nama-for-homeowners-2042033.html


    This is an idea I am absolutely opposed to for several reasons.

    Firstly, the cost. I don't know how much a bail out for the average joe would cost but I can only assume it would be alot.

    Secondly, an issue of responsibility. No one made anyone buy a house. In particular, no one was forced to buy a house in what is now a ghost estate. I find it distressing that people feel entitled to a bail out of a mortgage when they so willingly took out half a million from the bank without considering the long term implications. I have heard people claim that they were conned into huge mortgage. If these people are bailed out then we will be vindicating the sense of entitlement that is at the root of most of our problems.

    Thirdly, what would they think in Europe? The big guys in Europe may be distracted at the moment by Greece but if things are not changed here soon, we could end up in just the same position. Can you imagine us being helped by Europe if we borrow billions simple to pay off debts of people who didn't think before they said; "mr banker, me neighbour got a new car and a wide screen TV. He have, me want!!". And of course, mr Banker was only to happy to hand over 500k to a builder on 30k a year. Though I suppose we are a knowledge economy after all, and we all know that the builder was entitled to piss that money against the wall :rolleyes:

    I'm starting to rant so I'll wrap it up. Let's see what people think. As with my last thread, I would like to make the request that the well worn topic Civil servants wages and number not be brought up unless the poster has an intelligent reason to do so.

    Let's debate!.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    I'll fight it tooth and nail (ie; i'll complain on the internet)

    If you it.were dumb enough to buy an asset at the height of a bubble then you'll live with


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Because its a terrible idea it is guaranteed to happen now :(


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It simply can't happen. Sorry to all those who mortgaged themselves to the hilt but it's not the country's problem and the we simply do not have the money.

    End of story.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I'm surprised this hasn't come up. I saw an advert this afternoon for RTE's new Aftershock programs and on it, a NAMA for the home owner was mentioned. Such a creation was also brought up on a recent frontline. The following links can be used to inform:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/0315/1224266293224.html

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/create-a-nama-for-homeowners-2042033.html


    This is an idea I am absolutely opposed to for several reasons.

    Firstly, the cost. I don't know how much a bail out for the average joe would cost but I can only assume it would be alot.

    Secondly, an issue of responsibility. No one made anyone buy a house. In particular, no one was forced to buy a house in what is now a ghost estate. I find it distressing that people feel entitled to a bail out of a mortgage when they so willingly took out half a million from the bank without considering the long term implications. I have heard people claim that they were conned into huge mortgage. If these people are bailed out then we will be vindicating the sense of entitlement that is at the root of most of our problems.

    Thirdly, what would they think in Europe? The big guys in Europe may be distracted at the moment by Greece but if things are not changed here soon, we could end up in just the same position. Can you imagine us being helped by Europe if we borrow billions simple to pay off debts of people who didn't think before they said; "mr banker, me neighbour got a new car and a wide screen TV. He have, me want!!". And of course, mr Banker was only to happy to hand over 500k to a builder on 30k a year. Though I suppose we are a knowledge economy after all, and we all know that the builder was entitled to piss that money against the wall :rolleyes:

    I'm starting to rant so I'll wrap it up. Let's see what people think. As with my last thread, I would like to make the request that the well worn topic Civil servants wages and number not be brought up unless the poster has an intelligent reason to do so.

    Let's debate!.

    It has been discussed before, but the calls are getting louder so it should probably be discussed again. Personally I think its a disgusting proposal to not only subsidise the banks that over lent, but also to the people that over-borrowed.

    Like Eircom shares, the value of your property can fall as well as rise. Tough ****.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Like Eircom shares, the value of your property can fall as well as rise. Tough ****.

    But that's SO loike unfair, i thought i'd make a killing from that investment apartment in Ballyarsehole. It was dem banks whot done it...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    It simply can't happen. Sorry to all those who mortgaged themselves to the hilt but it's not the country's problem and the we simply do not have the money.

    End of story.

    The same could easily be said for the banks.

    I'm against this, but then I'm also against bailing out the gamblers in the banks.

    That puts me in an awkward position, because two wrongs don't make a right, but if commercial gamblers can get off their loans by going bankrupt and having the country foot the bill, then it sets a precedent by which those who gambled on property (and the separate category of those who wanted nothing to do with the sickening "property ladder" bull**** and just wanted a home) should be treated "fairly" based on that benchmark.

    Now that FF have redefined the word "fair", it's hard to tell anymore what's fair.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    It's a dizgraze...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    Where it could be proven that the banks lent recklessly to certain people then they should get their money back but not get the interest portion of it imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 145 ✭✭WebGeek


    I agree, you just can't bail home owners out as they took the risk and are now stuck with the consequences.

    But, what about the folks who made a killing during the boom, the ones who bought properties in '97 for buttons and were lucky enough that the crash did not happen back then. I'm not talking about the developers here, I'm talking about people who probably sold their shacks to some unlucky first-time buyer pre-bust, bought their dream home and pocketed the profits. They are the ones I usually hear shouting loudest about the cutbacks now.

    They made a killing and are sitting pretty now - would it be immoral to expect them to give back some of the wealth they amassed? Or is it a case of screw you, I'm alright jack.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    WebGeek wrote: »
    They are the ones I usually hear shouting loudest about the cutbacks now.

    Why would they be the ones shouting loudest?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    I'd vote for whoever offered it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    It was always going to be suggested once the original NAMA was put in place. It will never happen though. I dont think people should be too worried.

    I am however of the opinion that the banks should share the responsibility for reckless lending. People should be able to hand back their keys and walk away from the debt. Obviously they could not be entitled to help from the state in being re-housed or ever borrow money again but then both sides would be losers in the deal instead of the just the clown who mortgaged to the hilt for a dog box in Co well its not that far to Dublin


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    20Cent wrote: »
    I'd vote for whoever offered it.

    Shock horror. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you but
    Santa Claus doesn't exist
    :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    Shock horror. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you but
    Santa Claus doesn't exist
    :(

    Could see FF offering something in this vein in two years time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 145 ✭✭WebGeek


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Why would they be the ones shouting loudest?
    Probably because they have the bulk of the wealth in this country, and have the most to lose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    20Cent wrote: »
    I'd vote for whoever offered it.


    And that's the danger. I could easily see FG or labour pulling this one as a way to get elected and God would it be effective :(.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    And that's the danger. I could easily see FG or labour pulling this one as a way to get elected and God would it be effective :(.

    The same way they wanted to compensate those that lost out on Eircom. If such a scheme is ever introduced, I will never return to live in Ireland (Probably a few here think thats a price worth paying:p).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    What is it exactly that people think a "NAMA for the little guy" would be. I mean NAMA was just a transfer of loans from the banks to a new organisation in order to reduce uncertainty in the banks. The loans are still repayable in full with associated interest etc. If it is discovered that borrowers can not make repayments assets will be siezed and companies will be liquidated to recover as much of the loan as possible.

    One of the letters linked in the OP was seeking their mortgage to be reduced to the current value of their property. Surely this isn't what people are suggesting? If it is to give people more time to make repayments or to restructure their mortgage surely this can be done through their existing mortgage provider. I don't have any figures but i haven't noticed much news about familied getting kicked out of their houses for falling into arrears.

    What is "NAMA for the little guy"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    What is it exactly that people think a "NAMA for the little guy" would be. I mean NAMA was just a transfer of loans from the banks to a new organisation in order to reduce uncertainty in the banks. The loans are still repayable in full with associated interest etc. If it is discovered that borrowers can not make repayments assets will be siezed and companies will be liquidated to recover as much of the loan as possible.

    One of the letters linked in the OP was seeking their mortgage to be reduced to the current value of their property. Surely this isn't what people are suggesting? If it is to give people more time to make repayments or to restructure their mortgage surely this can be done through their existing mortgage provider. I don't have any figures but i haven't noticed much news about familied getting kicked out of their houses for falling into arrears.

    What is "NAMA for the little guy"?


    I didn't actually coin the term at all, I quoted it from frontline. I would imagine that most people would want such a scheme to be their mortgages wither reduced or paid off by the state which is, as you pointed out, not what NAMA does, true. However, most people don't even know what NAMA does other than "giving" money to banks so when things like NAMA for the homeowner, NAMA for the ordinary man on the street get tossed about, they can probably be taken to mean some sort of state aid for people with huge loans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Caoimhín wrote: »

    If you it.were dumb enough to buy an asset at the height of a bubble then you'll live with

    Never ceases to amaze me the ignorance some people can show . . .

    Sounds like its just plain dumb to ever buy anything that ends up losing you money . Since you have the gift of hindsight the rest of us mortals will have to just live with our idiocy . . He who hath never done anything "dumb" cast the first insult . . :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Never ceases to amaze me the ignorance some people can show . . .

    Sounds like its just plain dumb to ever buy anything that ends up losing you money . Since you have the gift of hindsight the rest of us mortals will have to just live with our idiocy . . He who hath never done anything "dumb" cast the first insult . . :rolleyes:

    I lost 50 euro on the horses

    can i haz mee bailout pleeeeze


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    I lost 50 euro on the horses

    can i haz mee bailout pleeeeze

    The bookie forced you. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    The bookie forced you. ;)

    Yes he told me that his houses horses always go up in value and its a win win :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Never ceases to amaze me the ignorance some people can show . . .

    Sounds like its just plain dumb to ever buy anything that ends up losing you money . Since you have the gift of hindsight the rest of us mortals will have to just live with our idiocy . . He who hath never done anything "dumb" cast the first insult . . :rolleyes:


    Buying a 500k shoebox apartment in Dublin's docklands when it was still only a drawing on paper was only a smart move by people who knew what they were doing. Some people saw the bubble for what it was and were smart enough to sell up before the s**t hit the fan. Well done to them.

    Now, the guy who knows nothing about finance and economics doing the same thing could only be a bad idea. It's not unlike what happened before the great depression, millions of people buying shares when they had no idea how the stock market worked. Same thing.

    People who don't know what they are doing before they do it is like playing with fire in a petrol station. Is that smart?


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This has been touched upon but the fairest way to sort this out would be for people to go and restructure the debt with their mortgage providers. We're talking smaller payments but over 50-70 years so that whoever inherits the property may sell it and pay the rest off or continue to pay off the mortgage themselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20 Johnboymac


    No No No and No again!!!.
    Investments can go up or down. ya have to take the good with the bad.
    (excuse me mr.banker - my 2005 car has lost its value...can i have my money back pleeeazze).
    Anyone who got a mortgage knew of the risks so tough s*!t..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Hold on ladies . . Were did I say people should get NAMA style bailouts ? . .

    I am saying , calling people who bought at the peak of the bubble dumb is simply ignorant of the highest order.


    I love the attitudes on boards.ie . . I assume that most of the people who had the foresight not to buy prob couldnt (and take the moral high-ground) or didnt have to (and take the moral high-ground). . Of course you all knew exactly when the bubble was going to burst . . Cough cough . . :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    RichardAnd wrote: »

    People who don't know what they are doing before they do it is like playing with fire in a petrol station. Is that smart?


    There is only so much preparation you can do in making huge decisions in your life. . Getting married, having children and buying a house are all huge decisions and none are guaranteed to work out. . People should take responsibility for their own decisions, but if things go wrong for them , they shouldn't be called dumb!

    Please enlighten me, when exactly should one buy a house ? Before you answer, remember we are talking about it in the context of house prices going up or down because you assume that people buying a house during the bubble didn't know what they were doing . What they got wrong was timing, but you seem to have the solution to that . . I'm all ears . .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Hold on ladies . . Were did I say people should get NAMA style bailouts ? . .

    There is a determined lobby group who want to saddle the taxpayer with more debt in order to bailout their group, bad enough we have the banks now they want to go of the cliff altogether

    Drumpot wrote: »
    I am saying , calling people who bought at the peak of the bubble dumb is simply ignorant of the highest order.


    I love the attitudes on boards.ie . . I assume that most of the people who had the foresight not to buy prob couldnt (and take the moral highground) or didnt have to . . Of course you all knew exactly when the bubble was going to burst . . Cough cough . . :rolleyes:

    I saved right thru the bubble, lived in Dublin city right thru the peak of the "rat race", yes people were making very dumb decisions out of fear and/or ignorance, i seen it every day in the office
    right now i am building a home for half the cost it would have cost only 2-3 years ago, and dont have to go to bank for "credit"

    no one knew when it was going to burst, but alot of people knew that it will burst

    right now the same is being repeated on a larger scale in China, a huge property bubble repeating the same mistakes that where made here in Ireland, i don't know when it will burst, but when it does it will be spectacular, hence why its not a good idea to invest there now especially in property


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Actually further thinking of China and their bubble

    anyone else finds it amusing that David McWilliams was all praise for them in his last documentary/book

    he claims to have spotted the bubble in Ireland, but is he ignoring the obvious property bubble in China?


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