Would it really be bad for Ireland to go Bankrupt?

pfy2k

I was wondering might it be a good time for the Republic of Ireland to go Bankrupt! To force a reboot of the country under a new name, political system, constitution, justice system and proper financial controls! As since 1922 the present system has certainly not worked!

Pot Noodle =

pfy2k wrote: »

I was wondering might it be a good time for the Republic of Ireland to go Bankrupt! To force a reboot of the country under a new name, political system, constitution, justice system and proper financial controls! As since 1922 the present system has certainly not worked!

First Peats and then Ireland

pfy2k

lol;) Well both are close to my heart! As I have to live with them!:D

sceptre

None of the things you list would happen if Ireland went bankrupt. It's not like a company where you could set up Ireland (2010) and start trading with no debts.

pfy2k

Well some would say that this Country has been run as a company instead of a Republic, with consumers rather then citizens!

pfy2k

The debt situation would not change, yes I agree. But it would be a social and political reason for major change, and we really do need major change here! The future looks so bleak!:(

northwest100

pfy2k wrote:

I was wondering might it be a good time for the Republic of Ireland to go Bankrupt!

Aren't we already?

If FF are running a deficit, that would mean we need to borrow.
This will continue until countries refuse to lend anymore.

Then we'll ask the IMF for a loan and if they come in, we'll live a life of servitude with the banks as our masters...

However, there are plenty of kleptocrats on these boards who will argue it's necessary to keep paying bankers bonuses for being totally incompetent and irresponsible.

We have a system where lazy incompetent and corrupt financial institutions are rewarded with tax payers money and the honest hard working people are penalised and made to pay for the banks losses.

What kind of system is that?

Crony-Capitalism? Kleptocracy?

sceptre

pfy2k wrote: »

Well some would say that this Country has been run as a company instead of a Republic, with consumers rather then citizens!

Some would say quite a lot of things given the chance but it still doesn't affect the reality, which is that it isn't a company and that the outcome you're suggesting wouldn't happen. Unfortunately it's got all the logic and usefulness of "we must do something" "This is something" "Hey, let's do this so". I didn't say that he debt situation wouldn't change, just that it wouldn't wipe them. Given that debt defaulters don't get other loans, it would make it significantly worse. There are other already-existing discussions that will reveal exactly why, I suggest having a gander at them. I realise you're proposing a solution but it's not one that would yield any benefits.

Bugnug

I dont know, well lets see,

Do you like having a job that pays money?
Do you like travelling out of the country for your holidays?
Do fancy looting and riots in the streets?
Would you like to see a total collapse of our society and complete social chaos?

Could be worse I guess.

pfy2k

Bugnug wrote: »

I dont know, well lets see,

Do you like having a job that pays money?
Do you like travelling out of the country for your holidays?
Do fancy looting and riots in the streets?
Would you like to see a total collapse of our society and complete social chaos?

Could be worse I guess.

I want to live in a civilised society, but I want to live not just exist. While others profit from engineering the political, justice and financial and tax systems for there benefit! That has been the situation for a long time, but it has only become evident because the good times have ended for the masses! Now all the creative taxes and levies forced on people to pay for the system that has made this state were in! So something has to change, internally or force from outside!

DidierMc

Time for the second Irish Republic. The first one has obviously failed.

pfy2k

I second that! lol:rolleyes:, if only!

tailgunner

pfy2k wrote: »

a reboot of the country under a new name

Can we call it Germany Deluxe or something?

ei.sdraob

Would it really be bad for Ireland to go Bankrupt?

we are bankrupt

just haven't admitted it yet

SkepticOne

I think the plan is to see how much we can get out of the EU first. May as well maximise that seeing as we're not going to pay any of it back. Like the Greeks.

recedite

sceptre wrote: »

It's not like a company where you could set up Ireland (2010) and start trading with no debts.

Isn't that the whole point of a default? The only downside being that nobody lends you money until they see how your new trading is going.

recedite

recedite wrote: »

Isn't that the whole point of a default? The only downside being that nobody lends you money until they see how your new trading is going.

Trading which can't really begin because you have no money/working society in the first place.

ei.sdraob

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Trading which can't really begin because you have no money/working society in the first place.

oh but societies that default do have trade

the black market grows large and the main currency usually becomes the US dollar

henryporter

The banks won't let us go bankrupt even though as someone said above: we are! The banks will continue to demand and obtain their pound of flesh, proving once again that it doesn't matter who we elect because they're not running the show anyway. It's absolutely sickening to see these banks and markets and credit rating agencies make governments dance to their tunes day in and day out. The same f*cks who put us in this mess are making sure we can't get out of it by changing the terms on a daily basis; betting on currencies; hedging on economic bailout plans; whatever. The bottom line is that we the people have our basic sovereign worth reduced to nothing because of the greedy f*cks of bankers and traders - in case we forgot: it's our money in the first place. I think we should stop paying the banks back; not just us but Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. - absolutely right; force a reboot of the system and regulate it properly - don't allow the banks to become so strong again; after all: all they're supposed to do is take care of the money we give them!

Scarab80

henryporter wrote: »

The banks won't let us go bankrupt even though as someone said above: we are! The banks will continue to demand and obtain their pound of flesh, proving once again that it doesn't matter who we elect because they're not running the show anyway. It's absolutely sickening to see these banks and markets and credit rating agencies make governments dance to their tunes day in and day out. The same f*cks who put us in this mess are making sure we can't get out of it by changing the terms on a daily basis; betting on currencies; hedging on economic bailout plans; whatever. The bottom line is that we the people have our basic sovereign worth reduced to nothing because of the greedy f*cks of bankers and traders - in case we forgot: it's our money in the first place. I think we should stop paying the banks back; not just us but Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. - absolutely right; force a reboot of the system and regulate it properly - don't allow the banks to become so strong again; after all: all they're supposed to do is take care of the money we give them!

If you don't want the banks and the bondholders to become so powerful, don't borrow from them.

Simples.

Count Dooku

Scarab80 wrote: »

If you don't want the banks and the bondholders to become so powerful, don't borrow from them.

What about deposits?

Scarab80

Count Dooku wrote: »

What about deposits?

eh?

oppenheimer1

pfy2k wrote: »

I was wondering might it be a good time for the Republic of Ireland to go Bankrupt! To force a reboot of the country under a new name, political system, constitution, justice system and proper financial controls! As since 1922 the present system has certainly not worked!

Yes, yes it would. [be a very bad idea to declare bankruptcy that is]

Count Dooku

Scarab80 wrote: »

eh?

I mean

If you don't want the banks and the bondholders to become so powerful, don't borrow from them and don't give them your money.

oppenheimer1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

we are bankrupt

just haven't admitted it yet

Bankruptcy: The inability to pay debts as they fall due.

As far as I know the teachers wages are still being paid so we are not bankrupt.

northwest100

oppenheimer1 wrote:

As far as I know the teachers wages are still being paid so we are not bankrupt.

Are we paying those wages?

ei.sdraob

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Bankruptcy: The inability to pay debts as they fall due.

As far as I know the teachers wages are still being paid so we are not bankrupt.

Genius you are :rolleyes:

teachers are being paid by taking on more debt
we are bankrupt

last year we had to roll over 5billion in debt because we couldn't pay it
that's like paying your mortgage with your credit card

if debt suddenly became more expensive (whats this here?) then theres no way in hell we payback debt and endup in similar situation as Greece, we actually owe more than Greece per capita, its just it aint maturing any time soon at the same time like Greece's debt is
we also gave the appearance of austerity, but it has been anything but

dean21

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Genius you are :rolleyes:

teachers are being paid by taking on more debt
we are bankrupt

last year we had to roll over 5billion in debt because we couldn't pay it
that's like paying your mortgage with your credit card

if debt suddenly became more expensive (whats this here?) then theres no way in hell we payback debt and endup in similar situation as Greece, we actually owe more than Greece per capita, its just it aint maturing any time soon at the same time like Greece's debt is
we also gave the appearance of austerity, but it has been anything but

Dole is also being paid by taking more debt
Hospitals are being keep open on taking more debt
Roads are being maintained on taking more debt
Childrens allowance is being paid on taking more debt
Free education is on taking more debt
Banks keep open on taking more debt
car dealers scrappage deal on taking more debt
Rich paying low tax on taking more debt
and on and on and on

ei.sdraob

dean21 wrote: »

and on and on and on

until no one is willing to but this debt...

then the "fun" begins

oppenheimer1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Genius you are :rolleyes:

teachers are being paid by taking on more debt
we are bankrupt

last year we had to roll over 5billion in debt because we couldn't pay it
that's like paying your mortgage with your credit card

if debt suddenly became more expensive (whats this here?) then theres no way in hell we payback debt and endup in similar situation as Greece, we actually owe more than Greece per capita, its just it aint maturing any time soon at the same time like Greece's debt is
we also gave the appearance of austerity, but it has been anything but

Its not a case of me being a genius, its just that I know what the word bankruptcy means, which clearly you don't. As long as payments are made as they fall due, It doesn't matter where the money is coming from, we are not bankrupt. As long as there are creditors willing to lend, debt is not a problem. Countries never die, so sovereign debt never has to be repaid, merely refinanced.

Using emotive language like that doesn't help your argument.

ei.sdraob

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its not a case of me being a genius, its just that I know what the word bankruptcy means, which clearly you don't. As long as payments are made as they fall due, It doesn't matter where the money is coming from, we are not bankrupt. As long as there are creditors willing to lend, debt is not a problem. Countries never die, so sovereign debt never has to be repaid, merely refinanced.

Using emotive language like that doesn't help your argument.

but the payments are not made from a positive balance

NTMA in 2009 had to borrow at close to 6% to rollover 4-5 billion of debt

we borrowed money at high rate to repay money borrowed earlier at lower rate

if your keeping track of a parallel thread our costs have gone north yet again and are same as during the worst of this recession and still deteriorating, and we have to get more debt again in a week or two


we can not payback our debts until our budget is balanced, until that happens (if that happens) we will keep rolling over debts at higher and higher rates putting more strain on remaining productive bits of the economy, it doest require much to realize that the situation aint pretty, just some basic maths

were like a junkie who is getting deeper into debt day by day

oppenheimer1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

but the payments are not made from a positive balance

NTMA in 2009 had to borrow at close to 6% to rollover 4-5 billion of debt

we borrowed money at high rate to repay money borrowed earlier at lower rate

if your keeping track of a parallel thread our costs have gone north yet again and are same as during the worst of this recession and still deteriorating, and we have to get more debt again in a week or two


we can not payback our debts until our budget is balanced, until that happens (if that happens) we will keep rolling over debts at higher and higher rates putting more strain on remaining productive bits of the economy, it doest require much to realize that the situation aint pretty, just some basic maths

were like a junkie who is getting deeper into debt day by day

So we are approaching bankruptcy at worst. You said we were already there.

ei.sdraob

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So we are approaching bankruptcy at worst. You said we were already there.

Unless we balance the books quick we are bankrupt, we can not pay our debts without getting into further debt, that goes beyond bankruptcy into stupidity territory

The only reason were still going is because there are investors foolish enough to lend to us, tho that's changing rapidly...

what's worse EU are tinkering about a large money printing programme to replace these investors, if that does happen then things will get "really" fun, i wonder if then the PS will realize that they are being taxed stealthily via money printing and inflation, their UK counterparts haven't woken up to the 30% shafting they received...

oppenheimer1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Unless we balance the books quick we are bankrupt, we can not pay our debts without getting into further debt, that goes beyond bankruptcy into stupidity territory

The only reason were still going is because there are investors foolish enough to lend to us, tho that's changing rapidly...

what's worse EU and thinking about a large money printing programme to replace these investors, if that does happen then things will get "really" fun

Monday is going to be frightening.

Scarab80

ei.sdraob wrote: »

but the payments are not made from a positive balance

NTMA in 2009 had to borrow at close to 6% to rollover 4-5 billion of debt

we borrowed money at high rate to repay money borrowed earlier at lower rate

if your keeping track of a parallel thread our costs have gone north yet again and are same as during the worst of this recession and still deteriorating, and we have to get more debt again in a week or two


we can not payback our debts until our budget is balanced, until that happens (if that happens) we will keep rolling over debts at higher and higher rates putting more strain on remaining productive bits of the economy, it doest require much to realize that the situation aint pretty, just some basic maths

were like a junkie who is getting deeper into debt day by day

The 5bn refinanced at the end of the year were short term treasury bills, which was financed by 10 Year Government Bonds with a headline rate of 5.9% but a yield of 4.7%, There was also 5bn left over from bond issues during the year which increased Exchequer cash balances to €27bn.

At the end of April we had €23.5bn cash on hand. This means that we do not have to proceed with the planned May auction and the general consensus is that we won't in hopes that the EU can contain contagion risks from Greece.

95% of our debt in issue is fixed rate debt and as such we only need to worry about our current bond yields when we go to the market to raise more money. So let's just pray that the EU are able to contain this Greek problem!

johnnyskeleton

pfy2k wrote: »

I want to live in a civilised society, but I want to live not just exist. While others profit from engineering the political, justice and financial and tax systems for there benefit! That has been the situation for a long time, but it has only become evident because the good times have ended for the masses! Now all the creative taxes and levies forced on people to pay for the system that has made this state were in! So something has to change, internally or force from outside!

Why would economic bankruptscy cause political societal, taxation and legal changes in Ireland?

Taking politics, if bankruptscy would get rid of FF and replace them with some good new party that works only for the benefit of the country that would be great. But why would bankruptscy cause that? More likely bankruptscy would strengthen FF's hand as they would talk about making hard decisions and getting the country back on track and the Irish people would probably believe them.

Put another way, if a new good political party would be voted in after bankruptscy, why can't we just skip the bankruptscy part and go straight to voting them in?

I don't really see how society would change for the better post bankruptscy. If anything, it would cause further social disharmony as SW and public sector pay would be cut massively, thus leading to a perception of increased unfairness. Certainly I don't see how bankruptscy will make any societal improvements.

In re: taxation, again if there is a better way to run a tax system, why don't we put it in place now?

In re: justice, are there any specific laws that you think should be changed? Because realistically if Ireland does go bankrupt it will still have the same laws enforced by the same policemen coming before the same judges and being represented by the same lawyers. The legal system would continue through the bankruptscy procees just as it did when we transferred over from British government to Irish government - all laws remained in place unless expressly repealed.

The problem with revolutions is that they are usually more concerned about what is wrong at the moment rather than what is right and what should be done. This means that usually after a radical upheaval the new system put in place is likely to be worse than the last, only catering to a different special interest group.

johnnyskeleton

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Genius you are :rolleyes:

teachers are being paid by taking on more debt
we are bankrupt

He does make a good point though - we may be insolvent, but that does not make us bankrupt.

ei.sdraob

Scarab80 wrote: »

The 5bn refinanced at the end of the year were short term treasury bills, which was financed by 10 Year Government Bonds with a headline rate of 5.9% but a yield of 4.7%, There was also 5bn left over from bond issues during the year which increased Exchequer cash balances to €27bn.

At the end of April we had €23.5bn cash on hand. This means that we do not have to proceed with the planned May auction and the general consensus is that we won't in hopes that the EU can contain contagion risks from Greece.

95% of our debt in issue is fixed rate debt and as such we only need to worry about our current bond yields when we go to the market to raise more money. So let's just pray that the EU are able to contain this Greek problem!

Good post we will find out tomorrow how the EU are going to deal with this "Greek" problem (only took them 5 months to get the message and start acting)

If they resort to a form of quantitative easing (as rumoured) then things will get very interesting, inflation will follow few months after that and that would hit the people who are struggling hardest

interesting times we live in..

Scarab80

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Good post we will find out tomorrow how the EU are going to deal with this "Greek" problem (only took them 5 months to get the message and start acting)

If they resort to a form of quantitative easing (as rumoured) then things will get very interesting, inflation will follow few months after that and that would hit the people who are struggling hardest

interesting times we live in..

Indeed. Sure it's something to talk about if nothing else