SF now the largest political party in the north.

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-05-2010 3:12pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Care to cite me the skin colour bars in the penal laws?
Oh, look, there weren't any.
Grow up, people. You didn't live through Apartheid. It's not the West Bank either. Your constant attempts to equate the chequered and in many cases monstrous history of your movement with the likes of Mandela is beyond risible. It's contemptible.
And I say that as an Irish nationalist from North Belfast.

So rampant discrimination only occurs when somebody has a different skin colour? Really? and you ask people to grow up!

dlofnep · 08-05-2010 3:13pm

owenc wrote: »

Why don't you bug off to Spain then.. Apparently Irish people come from Spain

I'll get right on that.

Nodin · 08-05-2010 3:14pm

getz wrote: »

no i am not forgetting(.....)always make sure they are there.

In their capacity as members of the NI assembly they negotiate with, and meet, the British government on this matter. This has been explained in the thread already.

Cavehill Red · 08-05-2010 3:16pm

dlofnep wrote: »

You seem to have a severe problem understanding that discrimination exists in a number of ways. Race is only one of many. Don't be obtuse.

I have a problem with people seeking to equate unlike experiences.
I LIVED through the entire troubles, right on an interface in North Belfast.
Every discrimination that existed in Northern Ireland affected my family at some point.
And you know what? It still didn't amount to Apartheid or anything remotely like it. This combination of MOPEry and risible self-aggrandisement is unique to Irish Republicanism.

Nodin · 08-05-2010 3:16pm

owenc wrote: »

Why don't you bug off to Spain then.. Apparently Irish people come from Spain

We really don't need this kind of thing.

K-9 · 08-05-2010 3:20pm

owenc wrote: »

Why don't you bug off to Spain then.. Apparently Irish people come from Spain

Nah, everybody should feck of back to Africa where we all began:

Neanderthal genome reveals interbreeding with humans - life - 06 May 2010 - New Scientist

aDeener · 08-05-2010 3:20pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I have a problem with people seeking to equate unlike experiences.
I LIVED through the entire troubles, right on an interface in North Belfast.
Every discrimination that existed in Northern Ireland affected my family at some point.
And you know what? It still didn't amount to Apartheid or anything remotely like it. This combination of MOPEry and risible self-aggrandisement is unique to Irish Republicanism.

barring your fascination with skin colour, the similiarities are remarkable. do you believe that discrimination can only happen on the grounds of skin colour?

how you can say the native irish have never in their history being discriminated against, shows your knowledge, or lack thereof, of history, regardless of where you might be from

TommyT · 08-05-2010 3:27pm

owenc wrote: »

Why don't you bug off to Spain then.. Apparently Irish people come from Spain

Are Northern Protestants not originally from Scotland (planters)? Or are you in Coleraine on holidays?

dlofnep · 08-05-2010 3:28pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I have a problem with people seeking to equate unlike experiences.
I LIVED through the entire troubles, right on an interface in North Belfast.
Every discrimination that existed in Northern Ireland affected my family at some point.
And you know what? It still didn't amount to Apartheid or anything remotely like it. This combination of MOPEry and risible self-aggrandisement is unique to Irish Republicanism.

Nobody said anything about Apartheid. You infact brought it up. The original context for discussion was on the basis of a poster claiming to admire Mandela, while on the same page - claim that no terrorist should be allowed to enter politics. I highlighted the fact that Mandela engaged in exactly the same strategies as the IRA.

You then went on to rant on about racial discrimination for a few posts - claiming that there were no similarities. I explained that there was discrimination on civil/cultural grounds, and that discrimination was and is wrong - and that in that context, the two situations were very much comparable - because one group of people controlled the politics, while the other was oppressed. The grounds for which they were oppressed on is irrelevant, and this is the key point that you have routinely missed.

owenc · 08-05-2010 3:33pm

TommyT wrote: »

Are Northern Protestants not originally from Scotland (planters)? Or are you in Coleraine on holidays?

Yea they are actually... I mention native Irish

owenc · 08-05-2010 3:34pm

Ment and how do you know what religion I am?

dlofnep · 08-05-2010 3:36pm

owenc wrote: »

Ment and how do you know what religion I am?

It's irrelevant what religion anyone is.

Southsider1 · 08-05-2010 3:39pm

Sinn Fein scored a spectacular own goal by not taking their seats in Westminster. They could now be calling the shots to form a coalition Government with the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Labour and the Independents. Now that would be Power!!

ardmacha · 08-05-2010 3:50pm

I mention native Irish

i.e. anyone born here.

People born in Ireland have ancestors that come from many places. I don't think where you ancestors come from the basis of seperate treatment.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 08-05-2010 3:50pm

DoireNod wrote: »

You could easily argue that Sinn Féin was being pro-nationalist rather than anti-SDLP.

I think they were doing both. They may be the party due to the largest amount of votes but they aren't the most powerful, they know if the SDLP crumble they'll get the lions share of their voters which could bring them close to matching the DUP's number of seats. I do have a lot of respect for Sinn Fein but I also like the SDLP and after observing both their behaviour during this election I've moved closer to SDLP

That's a bit disingenuous. Certainly, Ritchie was an easy target, but it's not right to say that he bullied her as if she was some helpless kid. They had digs at one another and to be honest, Ritchie's only comeback, that is trying to make an issue of abstentionism, was, to be frank, stupid. In the TV debates, Ritchie was her own worst enemy and came across as being very contrived.

Well as I said I agree she pulled the abstension card far too much, but it was wrong of Adams to come out and say she failed her first test of leadership because she wouldn't do a deal with him. A deal which simply had no benefits on offer for SDLP. So one can understand why SDLP would be a tad defensive/anti-Sinn Fein

Bottle_of_Smoke · 08-05-2010 3:54pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

Sinn Fein scored a spectacular own goal by not taking their seats in Westminster. They could now be calling the shots to form a coalition Government with the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Labour and the Independents. Now that would be Power!!

Not really. They could still take those seats if they wanted to, its not like they've missed the boat.

I was of the same thinking as yourself about this issue up until recently, even brought up your point on another board, but all in all Sinn Fein are elcted to not take their seats. The voters know and expect them not to, I guess its like Sinn Fein are making a symbolic point on behalf of their constituencies

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-05-2010 4:16pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

Sinn Fein scored a spectacular own goal by not taking their seats in Westminster. They could now be calling the shots to form a coalition Government with the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Labour and the Independents. Now that would be Power!!

More like fanciful thinking

Labour - 258
SNP - 6
SF - 5
PC - 3
SDLP - 3
Green - 1

Total - 276 = nowhere near calling the shots on anything

Edit: It would be a totally different story if Labour were on 321 then any party with at least 5 seats can maybe call the shots on something

Our man in Havana · 08-05-2010 4:20pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Not really. They could still take those seats if they wanted to, its not like they've missed the boat.

I was of the same thinking as yourself about this issue up until recently, even brought up your point on another board, but all in all Sinn Fein are elcted to not take their seats. The voters know and expect them not to, I guess its like Sinn Fein are making a symbolic point on behalf of their constituencies

They never state that fact in any party election literature or party election broadcasts.

karma_ · 08-05-2010 4:27pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

They never state that fact in any party election literature or party election broadcasts.

Give those voters who do vote SF the credit of at least acknowledging that they are fully aware that SF don't take their seats and yet it doesn't appear to bother them. The folk up here aren't some backwater idiots who don't have a clue as to whats going on.

dlofnep · 08-05-2010 4:35pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

They never state that fact in any party election literature or party election broadcasts.

Do you think the voting public is that stupid? They have been abstaining for a century. It's not as if it warrants broadcasting. Don't be silly.

mcmickey · 08-05-2010 5:21pm

I'm not a SF supporter, but fairplay to them, in particuliar for winning Fermanagh/South Tyrone, as a nationalist I'd rather see it stay in our hands. My father would have been a happy man today been a Fermanagh man though not neccessarily a SF supporter, just a general nationalist.

mcmickey · 08-05-2010 5:36pm

Here's the break down on FST. It's interesting because you hear people, generally of unionist views but sometimes on the left, always proclaiming how because of the Good Friday agreement the views of nationalists and unionsts would become less sharp and class politics etc emerge. Certainly doesn't look like it now.

Iwasfrozen · 08-05-2010 5:49pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Nobody said anything about Apartheid. You infact brought it up. The original context for discussion was on the basis of a poster claiming to admire Mandela, while on the same page - claim that no terrorist should be allowed to enter politics. I highlighted the fact that Mandela engaged in exactly the same strategies as the IRA.

While I did say that no terrorist should ever hold power I never said Mandela was a terrorist. You said that.

dlofnep wrote: »

You then went on to rant on about racial discrimination for a few posts - claiming that there were no similarities. I explained that there was discrimination on civil/cultural grounds, and that discrimination was and is wrong - and that in that context, the two situations were very much comparable - because one group of people controlled the politics, while the other was oppressed. The grounds for which they were oppressed on is irrelevant, and this is the key point that you have routinely missed.

Definition of Unionist: an upholder of the legislative union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unionist

Definition of Republican: of, pertaining to, or of the nature of a republic.

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Republican

Northern Ireland is divided purely on Sectarian/Cultural grounds unlike in South Africa. People can change their political/religious belifes and in the case of those living in Falls Road/Shankill Road change address. One cannot however change their race.

Your comparison of Catholics in NI to black people in South Africa is not only incorrect, it is damm right sinister.

08-05-2010 5:54pm

I got bored after page 15.Same old stuff.

Anyhow in my view,the result of the current election is a golden opportunity for Sinn Féin to secure an oath of office for Westminster thats similar to Stormont and for them to take up their seats in the commons.

They could liaise with the SNP and plaid cymru to gain that and I'm sure Gordie is keen enough to remain at no 10 to agree.

As regards SF being the largest party in NI now...THEY are GET OVER IT PEOPLE.
I suspect that they wouldn't be the largest party vote wise if the TUV hadn't taken some of the DUP vote and of course some of Peter Robinsons vote had'nt gone to the Alliance party.

It's my own view that NI isn't ready yet for a border poll but it will be in my lifetime.
I've absolutely no doubt about that.

I've also no doubt that all the Republican/Nationalist represtentatives and the Dublin government and the UK government of the time and stormont will be off to Europe securing a decade or more of funding to pay for it.
Anyone that thinks they wouldn't get the funding is deluded.
BY then I'd expect SF's economic policies to have moved inexorably more towards that of labour,ie moderately mainstream acceptable as opposed those they have now which in the south are niche economics moderately unacceptable to most.

We'll see anyhow.

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-05-2010 6:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I got bored after page 15.Same old stuff.

They could liaise with the SNP and plaid cymru to gain that and I'm sure Gordie is keen enough to remain at no 10 to agree.

Should have stayed the course then you would have seen post 258

Southsider1 · 08-05-2010 6:00pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

More like fanciful thinking

Labour - 258
SNP - 6
SF - 5
PC - 3
SDLP - 3
Green - 1

Total - 276 = nowhere near calling the shots on anything

Edit: It would be a totally different story if Labour were on 321 then any party with at least 5 seats can maybe call the shots on something

You're assuming that the Lib Dems are going to definitely side with the Tories? They're miles apart on policy.

dlofnep · 08-05-2010 6:05pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

While I did say that no terrorist should ever hold power I never said Mandela was a terrorist. You said that.

Actually I didn't. I said, he was called a terrorist. I don't believe he was. You claimed that no terrorist should be allowed to enter politics - but there is no difference in the tactics used by the IRA and Mandela. Both engaged in public bombing campaigns. So it's highly hypocritical of you, and also convenient for you to take such a stance, but exclude Mandela from it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Your comparison of Catholics in NI to black people in South Africa is not only incorrect, it is damm right sinister.

No, it is not sinister. My comparison of one group in society being oppressed, to another group in society being oppressed is a perfectly valid comparison. There is nothing sinister about. Your hyperbole is humorous, as is the utter lack of logic in your argument.

DoireNod · 08-05-2010 6:10pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well as I said I agree she pulled the abstension card far too much, but it was wrong of Adams to come out and say she failed her first test of leadership because she wouldn't do a deal with him. A deal which simply had no benefits on offer for SDLP. So one can understand why SDLP would be a tad defensive/anti-Sinn Fein

I don't think Ritchie and the SDLP's decision not to deal with Sinn Féin was necessarily because of the nature of Sinn Féin's proposal. Rather it seems, at least to me , that the SDLP wished to take the moral high ground and stay 'neutral'.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

While I did say that no terrorist should ever hold power I never said Mandela was a terrorist. You said that.

Mandela was considered a terrorist.

Terrorists are holding power in the UK, USA and across the globe; I hope you object to their being in power equally as much.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Northern Ireland is divided purely on Sectarian/Cultural grounds unlike in South Africa. People can change their political/religious belifes and in the case of those living in Falls Road/Shankill Road change address. One cannot however change their race.

Your comparison of Catholics in NI to black people in South Africa is not only incorrect, it is damm right sinister.

Sinister? Seriously?
There was state-sponsored discrimination, end of. It was wrong and it seriously affected the well-being and liberty of those subjected to the discrimination. Is there a hierarchy of discrimination in your world or what?

mcmickey · 08-05-2010 6:16pm

Here is a link analysising the vote. As you can see in 2010 SF and the SDLP vote is 42%. In 2005 it was 40.6%, an increase of 1.4 obviously. So, if this trend continues and the nationalist percentage continues to increase at this 1.4% every 5 years, then in 30 years they will have 50.4% of the vote.

It may not have to wait that long as the Alliance got 6.3%. How this would split on a border poll remains to be seen. Eammon McCann ( People Before Profit ) in Derry got 0.4%, a vote that would surely be pro United Ireland.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/

.

Iwasfrozen · 08-05-2010 6:21pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Actually I didn't. I said, he was called a terrorist. I don't believe he was. You claimed that no terrorist should be allowed to enter politics - but there is no difference in the tactics used by the IRA and Mandela. Both engaged in public bombing campaigns. So it's highly hypocritical of you, and also convenient for you to take such a stance, but exclude Mandela from it.

If we agree that Mandela is not a terrorist then how is it hypocritical of me to suggest that no terrorist should be in power ? Sure some people will say he was a terrorist but some people say Brian Cowen is a traitor.

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it is not sinister. My comparison of one group in society being oppressed, to another group in society being oppressed is a perfectly valid comparison. There is nothing sinister about. Your hyperbole is humorous, as is the utter lack of logic in your argument.

As i've said in my last post, which you ignored one can change their political/religious belifes and in the case of people living in the Falls Road/Shankill Road ones address but one cannot change ones skin colour. That is why I consider your comparison sinister.

DoireNod wrote:

There was state-sponsored discrimination, end of. It was wrong and it seriously affected the well-being and liberty of those subjected to the discrimination. Is there a hierarchy of discrimination in your world or what?

I know what you are trying to say. And I believe that I have covered that above but I'm quoting this passage purely for the last sentence. I just want to be sure to put that to bed.

Of course there is a hierarchy of discrimination. The Holocaust was discrimination but on a much worse scale then what we saw in NI or South Africa.

SF now the largest political party in the north.

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