Crash Scenario - who was at fault?

Sully

Quick question on a crash scenario that nearly happened to a friend of mine, and we are both wondering in the event the crash happened who was at fault and who is liable in terms of damage payment.

Your coming to a roundabout (Car A) with the intention of taking the second exit onto a motorway, so you take position in the right lane and drive onto the roundabout, which is clear from traffic on the right, with the intention of switching back into the left lane on the second exit which connects you to the motorway.

As you approach the second exit and indicate to go into the left lane, for the second exit, you suddenly realize that there is a car (Car in this lane already whome is not intending on going onto the motorway but is going straight onto the third and final exit. The car is slightly ahead of you so you just about avoid a crash.

In the event that Car A hits into the back of Car B - who is at fault? Is it Car A for not spotting the car in the first place, or Car B for being in the wrong lane?

Curious on this. No crash occurred, but iv seen several near misses like this with people not using their lanes correctly.

Seperate

The responsibility (in the insurance company eyes) is with the person that is switching lanes.
It is up to them to ensure the lane in which they wish to enter is clear and free of other vehicles.
99 times out of 100 if you hit into the back of someone it's your fault too.

You should be in the left lane if taking the first or second exits to most three exit roundabouts anyhow. Depends on the roundabout obviously.

Vegeta

Were there road markings indicating which lane on the roundabout to use for the specific exits?

Using the hours of a clock convention, with 12 o clock being straight ahead, 6 o clock being the entrance to the roundabout etc, what hour was the second exit?

Vegeta

Seperate wrote: »

You should be in the left lane if taking the first or second exits to most three exit roundabouts anyhow. Depends on the roundabout obviously.

This is what I was getting at really

But agree with the post overall anyway

Vertakill

Sully wrote: »

Your coming to a roundabout (Car A) with the intention of taking the second exit onto a motorway, so you take position in the right lane and drive onto the roundabout

Curious on this. No crash occurred, but iv seen several near misses like this with people not using their lanes correctly.

Technically, your friend was in the wrong lane if they were taking the 2nd exit and they entered the roundabout in the right-hand lane.
According to the ROTR, you're supposed to be, primarily, in the left lane if you're taking the 2nd exit.

Sully wrote: »

As you approach the second exit and indicate to go into the left lane, for the second exit, you suddenly realize that there is a car (Car in this lane already whome is not intending on going onto the motorway but is going straight onto the third and final exit. The car is slightly ahead of you so you just about avoid a crash.

Could be just down to the way you've worded this but.... do you mean indicate left to exit the roundabout or do you mean indicate left and then switch from the inner lane to the outer lane of the roundabout?

Sully wrote: »

In the event that Car A hits into the back of Car B - who is at fault? Is it Car A for not spotting the car in the first place, or Car B for being in the wrong lane?

Depends what lane Car B entered the roundabout on to determine whether they were in the right/wrong lane. I don't think you mentioned that in your original post, unless I'm misreading something.

frex

Interesting one. All the comments make sense. But, although logic and the law will seem straightforward in most roundabout collisions, insurance companies know that there can be lots of subjectivity with them and quite often settle with 50:50 apportionment of blame, even if one party feels/is hard done by.

A friend of mine was rear ended on a roundabout when in the correct lane and the insurance companies still found a way to engineer a 50:50 split. Doesnt always make sense! Annoying when this is what drives the cost of insurance!

privateBeavis

from: http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html



You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:

* the left-hand lane is only for turning left or is blocked or closed, or
* when directed by a Garda.

Vertakill

Vegeta wrote: »

Were there road markings indicating which lane on the roundabout to use for the specific exits?

Using the hours of a clock convention, with 12 o clock being straight ahead, 6 o clock being the entrance to the roundabout etc, what hour was the second exit?

A lot of confusion is brought about by using that way of labelling the exits.
For example, there could be an exit that's at 12 o clock, but it could be the 3rd exit. This lends itself for a huge misunderstanding.
12 o clock is usually, but not always, the 2nd exit.

That's why driving instructors will always say the likes of, 1st exit, 2nd exit, 3rd exit etc.

Sully

Just double checking the story.

Twin-go

It the left lane Car A was going to the 3rd exit (The 3rd exit is at 12o'clock)
In the right lane Car B was taking the second exit.

They came together as Car B went to leave at the second exit when Car A came accross in front of him.

In this case the lanes are clearly marked. Left lane exits 1 and 2. Right lane all other exits.

The Gardai came along and I was asked to give a statement. After I gave the statement I asked who was in the wrong?
Garda said both were in the wrong lane but it was Car B that caused the crash as he was the car that was changing lanes at impact.

h3000

privateBeavis wrote: »

from: http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html



You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:

* the left-hand lane is only for turning left or is blocked or closed, or
* when directed by a Garda.

On most roundabouts with two entry lanes and two exit lanes at the second exit you can also use the right hand lane to take the second exit. The road markings will should always indicate this. The road markings will always indicate if this is the case.

merchant08

Ive seen this loads of times.

Without a doubt Car B was at fault, doesnt have a let to stand on

Vegeta

Vertakill wrote: »

A lot of confusion is brought about by using that way of labelling the exits.
For example, there could be an exit that's at 12 o clock, but it could be the 3rd exit. This lends itself for a huge misunderstanding.
12 o clock is usually, but not always, the 2nd exit.

That's why driving instructors will always say the likes of, 1st exit, 2nd exit, 3rd exit etc.

The OP stated the 2nd exit, that could be anywhere on the roundabout depending on its design.

Twin-go

h3000 wrote: »

On most roundabouts with two entry lanes and two exit lanes at the second exit you can also use the right hand lane to take the second exit. The road markings will should always indicate this.

Unless the markings say otherwise you MUST use the left lane for exit 2 weather it's 2 lanes in and 2 lanes out or not.

Sully

I do believe he was in the wrong, I think my OP was correct.

Attached rough design of roundabout.

Seperate

frex wrote: »

Interesting one. All the comments make sense. But, although logic and the law will seem straightforward in most roundabout collisions, insurance companies know that there can be lots of subjectivity with them and quite often settle with 50:50 apportionment of blame, even if one party feels/is hard done by.

A friend of mine was rear ended on a roundabout when in the correct lane and the insurance companies still found a way to engineer a 50:50 split. Doesnt always make sense! Annoying when this is what drives the cost of insurance!

Correct lane / Wrong lane doesn't make any odds to them. It's to do with crossing the broken white lines. If you do cross them, and hit a car it's your fault. You have to be sure the lane in which you're entering is clear and free of traffic.

God knows how they talked their way into a 50/50 with a rear end?

Skid

Vertakill wrote: »

A lot of confusion is brought about by using that way of labelling the exits.
For example, there could be an exit that's at 12 o clock, but it could be the 3rd exit. This lends itself for a huge misunderstanding.
12 o clock is usually, but not always, the 2nd exit.

That's why driving instructors will always say the likes of, 1st exit, 2nd exit, 3rd exit etc.

I agree, It's ridiculous that the voiceover in the recent RSA ads about Roundabouts describes the second exit as 'going straight ahead'.

Those adverts should be scrapped and remade with correct referral to first second and subsequent exits.

h3000

Twin-go wrote: »

Unless the markings say otherwise you MUST you the left lane for exit 2 weather it's 2 lanes in and 2 lanes out or not.

I know

h3000 wrote: »

On most roundabouts with two entry lanes and two exit lanes at the second exit you can also use the right hand lane to take the second exit. The road markings will should always indicate this.

If you are referring to the text in RED above I am on about bad road maintenance and markings being half worn away.

I have changed the original post in the attempt to make my English more clear

Vegeta

SkidMark wrote: »

I agree, It's ridiculous that the voiceover in the recent RSA ads about Roundabouts describes the second exit as 'going straight ahead'.

Those adverts should be scrapped and remade with correct referral to first second and subsequent exits.

Why? The adds cover what is laid out in the RoTR

seamus

Twin-go wrote: »

Unless the markings say otherwise you MUST use the left lane for exit 2 weather it's 2 lanes in and 2 lanes out or not.

Except if the left-hand lane is blocked - e.g. if there is traffic queueing to leave by the first exit.

Sully wrote: »

I do believe he was in the wrong, I think my OP was correct.

Attached rough design of roundabout.

That looks entirely different to what you described in the OP

I got the impression in the OP that both vehicles entered the roundabout from the same point.

What matters in this case is which car entered the roundabout first. You are required to yield to all traffic which is on the roundabout when you arrive at it. If the other car entered first, he has right of way. If your mate entered first, he had right of way.

Sully

Car A approached from exit one and Car B approached from exit two.

Car A has no idea (not paying attention it seems) when Car B entered the roundabout. Since though Car B was ahead, I guess it could be assumed Car B was on the roundabout first.

Vertakill

Vegeta wrote: »

The OP stated the 2nd exit, that could be anywhere on the roundabout depending on its design.

That's exactly my point. The 2nd exit is literally just that, the 2nd exit.
There are too many mitigating factors involved if you are to say '12 o clock'.

If you were at the Walkinstown roundabout, 12 o clock could be the 4th or 5th exit !

The rules we're supposed to follow are judged by exits (and lanes) and not by the positioning of the entrances/exits using the clock system.

That's why if you are to go and sit a pre-test tonight, the instructor will go out of his way to call everything 1st, 2nd exit etc and not confuse things by using the clock system.

h3000 wrote: »

On most roundabouts with two entry lanes and two exit lanes at the second exit you can also use the right hand lane to take the second exit. The road markings will should always indicate this. The road markings will always indicate if this is the case.

That's how I use 2 lane roundabouts too which has caused a few debates.

Shane732

I'd be interested what people think in relation to this instance:

First car (Car A) enters the roundabout (at 6pm entrance point), in the left hand lane, with the intention of taking the second exit (at approximately 12am from it's entrance point) . Car A switches it's indicator on to exit the roundabout just after the first exit (9pm entrance point) to take the second exit.

At this time (just at the point in time when car A is passing say 8:45 {reference to where the small hand would be on the clock!} Car B is entering the roundabout from the first exit. Car B assumes Car A is taking the first exit. Car A and B collide.

Who's at fault?

I would always have said that Car B was in the wrong but I know someone who is in the process of a battle in relation to a very similar situation.

seamus

Sully wrote: »

Car A has no idea (not paying attention it seems) when Car B entered the roundabout. Since though Car B was ahead, I guess it could be assumed Car B was on the roundabout first.

Depends on a number of factors really. If the roundabout was big and Car B was travelling very slowly (or Car A travelling very quickly), then this scenario is likely. How you would miss another vehicle directly in front of you though is anyone's guess.

On the other hand, if both cars were travelling at roughly the same speed and the roundabout was big, it's likely that Car B entered after Car A, but because of the size of the roundabout, was still ahead of Car A by the time Car A wanted to leave.

B00MSTICK

Car A is in the wrong lane unless the left hand lane is blocked or whatever.

If Car B was on the roundabout 1st then Car A is 100% at fault.

Vertakill

Shane732 wrote: »

I'd be interested what people think in relation to this instance:

First car (Car A) enters the roundabout (at 6pm entrance point), in the left hand lane, with the intention of taking the second exit (at approximately 12am from it's entrance point) . Car A switches it's indicator on to exit the roundabout just after the first exit (9pm entrance point) to take the second exit.

At this time (just at the point in time when car A is passing say 8:45 {reference to where the small hand would be on the clock!} Car B is entering the roundabout from the first exit. Car B assumes Car A is taking the first exit. Car A and B collide.

Who's at fault?

I would always have said that Car B was in the wrong but I know someone who is in the process of a battle in relation to a very similar situation.

Car B is at fault as he has to give way to what's already on the roundabout. Car A was in the correct lane and provided they didn't throw on their indicator too early (before they'd passed their 1st exit), then they did everything by the book.

seamus

Shane732 wrote: »

I would always have said that Car B was in the wrong but I know someone who is in the process of a battle in relation to a very similar situation.

Car B is at fault, without a shadow of a doubt. Indication is merely a signal of intent it does not mean that a driver has a right or an obligation to turn in that direction.

As I mention above, the person entering the roundabout must give way to all traffic on the roundabout. A misleading signal could be used to claim partial fault on the other driver's part, but the primary cause of the accident would be failure to yield on Car B's part.

You will fail your driving test for assuming that an oncoming vehicle is turning because their indicator is on.

B00MSTICK

The OP says she has no idea if Car B was on the roundabout already.

Judging by what some people are saying I could enter in the right hand lane speed around the roundabout, overtake someone on said roundabout, smack into them and it would be there fault?

Vertakill

B00MSTICK wrote: »

The OP says she has no idea if Car B was on the roundabout already.

Judging by what some people are saying I could enter in the right hand lane speed around the roundabout, overtake someone on said roundabout, smack into them and it would be there fault?

I think the confusion is that Shane threw in another scenario that seamus and I responded to using the same 'Car A, Car B' terminology!


But, at a push, I'd say the OP was somewhat more in the right than the other car IF the other car joined the roundabout after the OP.
There's a bit of a gray area surrounding what lane you should be in whilst taking the 2nd exit (supposed to be only left unless circumstances dictate otherwise) but that would probably be overlooked if Car B didn't give way to the traffic (which is Car already on the roundabout.

B00MSTICK

Ha just remember reading that post now Vertakill! Carry on

Yes, definitely Car B at fault in that scenario

Vertakill

Hehe, I was getting a bit confused myself looking at all these Car A, Car B scenarios and trying to keep track of who's who.

me_right_one

Sully, your mate was wrong.
Shane, car B was wrong.

/thread