Question on Religion and Expulsion

ldxo15wus6fpgm

My school does not offer religion as an exam subject, but we are made to go into 3 classes a week of, basically, being told "If you don't believe in god and jesus, you're a bad person and you will get aids".

While I am a catholic, I hate this narrow minded approach, and the fact that I could be getting some studying done instead of being spoon fed bullsh*t seriously annoys me.

I know for a fact that the other religion teachers would be letting their classes study and talk etc. if she didn't insist on teaching the actual subject, because I've heard all 3 of them say just that.

I tried to negotiate my way out of the class so I could study, however it ended up with my deputy head (who dislikes me for some petty reasons I won't go into) telling me she doesn't care what I think, the school has a christian ethos and if I didn't want to go into the class I should find another school, end of discussion. 2 months before I sit my leaving, with the nearest other school being a good 8 miles away.

Upon further research, I found this:

BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, Article 44, Section 2, Subsection 4:

Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

Now I would like to assume that this supersedes the school's policies etc. but you never know.

I am 18 if that changes anything.

My question: If I handed this to my head/deputy head and asked(demanded ) to be allowed to leave the class, would she be able to expel me/discipline me in any way, and would she have to let me out of the class or would school policy overrule this?

I am not certain if there is anything about this in the school policy, however knowing just how much this dep. head dislikes me and how petty she can be sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if she edited it in just for me.

Also I don't want to hear how great religion class is or why I should stay.


Cheers.

stainluss

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

My school does not offer religion as an exam subject, but we are made to go into 3 classes a week of, basically, being told "If you don't believe in god and jesus, you're a bad person and you will get aids".

While I am a catholic, I hate this narrow minded approach, and the fact that I could be getting some studying done instead of being spoon fed bullsh*t seriously annoys me.

I know for a fact that the other religion teachers would be letting their classes study and talk etc. if she didn't insist on teaching the actual subject, because I've heard all 3 of them say just that.

I tried to negotiate my way out of the class so I could study, however it ended up with my deputy head (who dislikes me for some petty reasons I won't go into) telling me she doesn't care what I think, the school has a christian ethos and if I didn't want to go into the class I should find another school, end of discussion. 2 months before I sit my leaving, with the nearest other school being a good 8 miles away.

Upon further research, I found this:


Now I would like to assume that this supersedes the school's policies etc. but you never know.

I am 18 if that changes anything.

My question: If I handed this to my head/deputy head and asked(demanded ) to be allowed to leave the class, would she be able to expel me/discipline me in any way, and would she have to let me out of the class or would school policy overrule this?

I am not certain if there is anything about this in the school policy, however knowing just how much this dep. head dislikes me and how petty she can be sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if she edited it in just for me.

Also I don't want to hear how great religion class is or why I should stay.


Cheers.

Nope, they cant. Just quote that to them and theres not a thing they can do.. They probably wont take you out, the teacher will ignore you.

WARNING: You may get aids, though.

Halla Basin

I'd say just go the whole nine yards and blow the **** outta that school o' yours.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

stainluss wrote: »

WARNING: You may get aids, though.

For realsies?! :P

Halla Basin wrote: »

I'd say just go the whole nine yards and blow the **** outta that school o' yours.

I totally would, but they'd tell the press I was a muslim extremist.

siobhanher

In our school you can only get an exemption from religion if you haven't been baptised. Such crap.

Fad

Just stop being so argumentative and just get on with school, you dont have to pay attention in the class......

I know you'd like to be studying it, but if they let you out of the class, they'll have to let everyone out, and they wont want to do it.

If you get you parents to give your principle a ring, you could probably get out of it, handing them a bit of the constitution will just result in you getting it thrown back at you.

I know you're 18 too, but it's not really your call in school, as much as it should be >_<

ldxo15wus6fpgm

I have tried to just go down the back on stay quiet and do my work, but she brings me up to the very front and takes my books off me.

The principle apparently never has the time to talk to anyone's parents, strange how our old one had plenty of time... Anyway she's never co operative when I do manage to get a word in with her. Last time we actually managed to ask her to get something sorted she left it for over a year and I ended up having to get it done at my own cost.

implausible

I'd second what Fad said. How much time and energy have you spent looking this up, posting it on here and generally being argumentative TWO months before your Leaving Cert? You go to a school with a Christian ethos and just before you finish in it, you've suddenly noticed that you have to do Religion and object to it

I really can't understand why the Deputy Head doesn't like you if you're wasting her time with this crap:rolleyes:

Get your parents in if it's such a big deal to you and sort out your priorities.

You'd do well to remember that this is the school who may be providing you with a reference in the future.

G_R

we had this same issue at the start of the year. 3 Religion classes a week and no exam at the end of it. The religion teacher just said I'm not going to make ye do something ye don't want to do when you have more important things you could be studying for.


And btw, I'm pretty certain the Constitution overrides school policy:rolleyes:

ldxo15wus6fpgm

deemark wrote: »

I'd second what Fad said. How much time and energy have you spent looking this up, posting it on here and generally being argumentative TWO months before your Leaving Cert? You go to a school with a Christian ethos and just before you finish in it, you've suddenly noticed that you have to do Religion and object to it

I really can't understand why the Deputy Head doesn't like you if you're wasting her time with this crap:rolleyes:

Get your parents in if it's such a big deal to you and sort out your priorities.

You'd do well to remember that this is the school who may be providing you with a reference in the future.

FYI I've been at them since the start of 6th year over this, along with the rest of my year. I'm only seriously putting effort into this because in the long run I will get more study time out of it. That took barely an hour to find.

If you must know, my dep. head doesn't like me because I didn't get on well with my semi insane English teacher throughout 5th year, and they just happen to be best buds. Stop assuming you know everything about my situation.

I'm a generally argumentative person, and I know it. In fact I plan to study law. However I wouldn't be nearly as bad as this if they weren't trying to force feed me crap for 2 hours a week, and then threatening me with expulsion for trying to get out of it.

If you had read my last post, you would see how involving my parents would not make a difference. The principle doesn't give a flying f*ck and the dep. head would say the exact same thing to them.

dannym08 wrote: »

And btw, I'm pretty certain the Constitution overrides school policy:rolleyes:

Like I said, you never know in this country.

MsDarcy

Op, had a similiar situation when I was in school ( it was a presentation sisters) had a particular teacher for Junior cert who is a totally devout catholic, she drove the class mental and we always were fighting back with her. She refused to even entertain ideas about contraception, abortion and all those things, When it came to fifth year we had her for religion again ,this time without the exam at the end which I know can be fustrating. Like yourselves our class was the only actual religious class ( we could spend a whole class just doing the rosary) while the other religion teachers were doing interesting things like death row, abortion etc and got to watch films like the green mile (it wasn't suitable for us :rolleyes: ) and we hated her still for it but there was no getting around her. In the end we just embraced her and had a great laugh in the class discussing things , she was a lovely women who was genuinely a really devout Catholic and who only wanted the best for us, she was constantly saying prayers for us and giving us holy medals and water.

Op I think you should just humour your teacher and take your religion class as a mental break from the rest of the day, the Leaving Cert is head wrecking enough!

ldxo15wus6fpgm

MsDarcy wrote: »

Op I think you should just humour your teacher and take your religion class as a mental break from the rest of the day, the Leaving Cert is head wrecking enough!

No offence, but stuff that...

It would never be a mental break because this teacher considers the religion course more important than my exam results and tries to shove catholic propaganda down my neck for 40 minutes. She then denies that she's trying to convert me (she thinks I'm an agnostic) and the second I try to do something really constructive in the class i.e. study down the back instead of getting wound up listening to her bullcrap, she adopts the policy of making sure I'm up the very front every day and takes my books off me, and then gets my deputy head to threaten me with expulsion if I don't swallow it all.

We'd never be "having a laugh" in the class because we're made to sit in silence and listen to her go on about the sinners, gays and how they're doomed to contract every single STD in existance but catholic people having unprotected sex are perfectly safe because the pope says it's ok, and how abortion is absolutely terrible and can never, ever be of benefit to anyone.

EDIT: This is the reason I said in the OP that I didn't want to hear about how great the class was etc.

Fad

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

No offence, but stuff that...

It would never be a mental break because this teacher considers the religion course more important than my exam results and tries to shove catholic propaganda down my neck for 40 minutes. She then denies that she's trying to convert me (she thinks I'm an agnostic) and the second I try to do something really constructive in the class i.e. study down the back instead of getting wound up listening to her bullcrap, she adopts the policy of making sure I'm up the very front every day and takes my books off me, and then gets my deputy head to threaten me with expulsion if I don't swallow it all.

We'd never be "having a laugh" in the class because we're made to sit in silence and listen to her go on about the sinners, gays and how they're doomed to contract every single STD in existance but catholic people having unprotected sex are perfectly safe because the pope says it's ok, and how abortion is absolutely terrible and can never, ever be of benefit to anyone.

EDIT: This is the reason I said in the OP that I didn't want to hear about how great the class was etc.

You just need to take a different approach, pretend you buy all of it, play along with everything she says....I have to do it with a few family members and it does nothing but amuse me >_>

I personally find all that shíte kinda hilarious, and pity anyone who actually believes in it. She's wrong on the catholics being okay having unprotected sex front......(S'not okay to do out of marriage really in the church's eyes.)

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Others have tried it to no avail
Sorry that was my mistake, it's meant to say couples. Still unsafe if one of them has already contracted something, or if one if them is ever unfaithful.

Anyhoo I think this was the wrong forum to post in :P

Fad

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

Others have tried it to no avail
Sorry that was my mistake, it's meant to say couples. Still unsafe if one of them has already contracted something, or if one if them is ever unfaithful.

Anyhoo I think this was the wrong forum to post in :P

Obviously proper catholic couples wouldn't be unfaithful

I'd imagine that's what she's getting at. Anyway, in a "real" catholic relationship, sex is purely functional

happy_feet

in fairness, if you go to a school with a catholic ethos you must expect to do religion classes whether you like it or not.....yeah i know its crap but just get on with it. We all do. Instead of getting in fights with your principal, and looking up the constitution, you could just zone out for the 40 minutes and not listen.

The year is nearly over anyways

RocketFalls

And here I was, feeling all uppity about there being crucifixes in every classroom. This is just plain creepy. Almost straight-out bloody theocracy.

rainbowtrout

OP you're forgetting a few things in the middle of all your whining. 1. Schools have to timetable religion so you can stop giving out about having three classes a week. 2. Your teacher is paid to teach religion, that's her job. There are enough people posting on boards complaining about teachers who don't teach their classes and you're complaining about a teacher who is doing what she is supposed to do. 3. Principals can't let students wander the school willy nilly when they're supposed to be in class under the supervision of a teacher. 4. You don't seem to have an issue with religion as such only that it's wasting time that you could be studying in. I wonder would you have the same argument about a PE or computer class? They're not exam subjects either. If you don't want to be in class stay at home and study. LC students can big the biggest pain in the arse at this time of year thinking that the rules of the school don't apply as they only have a month left, when in reality they cause more disruption than any other year group with their 'i'm not going to class, i'm studying stance'

ldxo15wus6fpgm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

OP you're forgetting a few things in the middle of all your whining. 1. Schools have to timetable religion so you can stop giving out about having three classes a week. 2. Your teacher is paid to teach religion, that's her job. There are enough people posting on boards complaining about teachers who don't teach their classes and you're complaining about a teacher who is doing what she is supposed to do. 3. Principals can't let students wander the school willy nilly when they're supposed to be in class under the supervision of a teacher. 4. You don't seem to have an issue with religion as such only that it's wasting time that you could be studying in. I wonder would you have the same argument about a PE or computer class? They're not exam subjects either. If you don't want to be in class stay at home and study. LC students can big the biggest pain in the arse at this time of year thinking that the rules of the school don't apply as they only have a month left, when in reality they cause more disruption than any other year group with their 'i'm not going to class, i'm studying stance'

Actually you're forgetting a few things: you haven't got a clue what my school is like, and you don't know what the senior staff are like. You don't know what my teachers are like. You don't have any idea what kind of position me and others are put into in this religion class. You don't realise that I have a close relative that actually teaches in the school, who also thinks the situation is ridiculous.

1. I'm giving out about the fact that for 3 classes a week I, along with the rest of my class, am subject to an earful of absolute bull****.
2. As I said before, this woman isn't doing her job. she's not teaching the religion class, she's trying to convince us to be anti gay, anti abortion numbskulls who let the church do their thinking.
3. Funny, because there are other students who are allowed to do exactly that. Once the teacher doesn't care and isn't whining at the head/deputy head, they don't give a flying f*ck. I sit by myself in the assembly hall during Irish class as I don't study it. I've never had a word said to me about it.
4. We were made to sacrifice our P.E. class at the start of 6th year, as proof of this I posted in a thread about it a number of months ago if you want to go back through my posts. We haven't been given a computer class since 2nd year.

As for your "pain in the hole" attitude, this is an exam which can affect our career prospects for years. Compare that with the teacher looking down on us and viewing our need to actually do well in these exams as a trifling matter - as I have been told by teachers many many times: "It makes no difference to me, I'm still going to get paid at the end of the month" Which IMO is a poor attitude to take as a teacher. I don't give a crap about much apart from this exam at the moment, I am sacrificing enough as it is, I am not going to let some self important cow detract from my studies.

implausible

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

I don't give a crap about much apart from this exam at the moment, I am sacrificing enough as it is, I am not going to let some self important cow detract from my studies.

But you are, by spending time on here and in school complaining about her:eek:. A poster doesn't have to go to your school to figure out that you're wasting time complaining about your time being wasted. It's three classes (two hours?) out of a whole week. Get on with it.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

randylonghorn

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Actually, modern Catholic doctrine, correctly understood and taught, is not anti-gay (despite the last Pope reversing the trend towards a gentler more accepting attitude when he described homosexuality as an "objective disorder") ... it is anti- the *practice* of homosexual sex, as it does not lead to procreation, in much the same way as it is anti-contraception (or indeed, anti- sex before marriage, though the reason there isn't about not leading to procreation, as obviously it sometimes does! )

I'm not being an apologist for Catholic doctrine here, indeed, when it comes to the whole subject of sexuality there is very little on which I could agree with the church ... I'm simply pointing out that no teacher should be going into a classroom and promoting homophobia in the name of Catholic doctrine. Catholic doctrine in fact insists, despite its reservations about both the orientation and especially the sexual acts involved, that gays "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity".



OP, all that aside, simple question ... if you feel that strongly about it, why did you go to a Catholic school in the first place?

Actually, another simple question if I may ... do you really feel that starting a fight with the school with *one month* to go before the Leaving Cert is really going to benefit you in any way?

cathy01

I understand where your coming from.Its the principal of the thing.You went to the school , knowing that Religion was a class you had to take.Thats fine but if your under pressure then, skip it.I totally agree with you.If it was me, I would write to the school, stating the consitution, and say while you understand the schools policy you feel your time would be better spent studying English ETC.If you go in fighting they will not entertain you.After your leaving cert, it is worth writing to the board of management outlineing the difficulties this has caused in, and hopefully they will have a change of policy for next year.
Best of luck with the exam.Cathy

ldxo15wus6fpgm

I haven't had the chance to do anything because she's been away for the last few days, so we've been having free classes.

I am attending a catholic school for three reasons:

1. I am catholic.
2. It is the nearest school by far.
3. As I said I have a relative who teaches there.

However I should not have to justify why I am attending a public school.

I'm not wasting study time here, because I only come on boards/facebook etc. during breaks.

Thankyou Cathy

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

red herring

OP, that sounds terrible.

Dreadful that in this day and age there are Still religious bible-basher teachers forcing their views on young people. Shameful, really. It is true however that catholic ethos state funded schools have been allowing this for years, and it is very much the norm in many catholic schools.
Your location says you live in ''the wesht'' I presume you mean the west of Ireland? A previous poster suggested you move schools but being from a rural backround myself I understand there is little choice and most rural schools posess a strong catholic ethos. (if you are in a rural western region) So I sympathize if this is the case.

It is very wrong that a teacher in a position of authority should shove their personal opinions down pupils throats. Even if the school has a catholic ethos the religion teacher has no business interfering with your personal beliefs. Making you sit at the top of class in the hopes to hammer catholicism into you because, according to her, you are !shock horror! agnostic is not on. It is none of her business if you are catholic, a buddhist, or a satan worshipper!

I understand you are angered by the principle of the thing, and rightly so. But this is not your battle OP. The problem is much greater than you, your principal, and catholic teacher. Religion has no place in schools.
You want to do law? well you should make sure you get it and maybe one day you can campaign to take religion out of schools.
In order to do that, and make sure you get your points for law, you should not get tangled up in this mess. It has the potential to turn ugly with your principal etc. You don't need this stress before your leaving cert. It could escalate.
The principal won't give a damn about the constitution. He/she will most likely laugh at you. Talk to your parents about it and see if they will go to the principal.

I'm sorry you have to put up with this so close to your leaving cert. If nothing works, go to the classes and write really important formulas/quotes on your hand. You can sneak glances at these and repeat them to yourself in your head over and over. Or go to the bathrooms and spend 10 mins there learning, go back to class and repeat (In your head) what you just learnt. You can be reciting quotes in your head while shes rabbiting on about contraception. Just drown her out with shakespeare/maths formulae! Where theres a will theres a way!

Don't start an argument with the teacher/principal over this. Ask your parents to take care of it. It is indeed very wrong but not worth a huge fight/trouble so close to your leaving cert.

Good luck in your exams, I wish you the very best!

gaeilgegrinds1

Just my opinion but I'd not have chosen to attend your school if I held your views. Catholic school=catholic ethos.

LutherBlissett

It's a school.

You can't just throw the Constitution at it! If the school allows one student to leave religion class, it will have to adopt a policy of doing so. If this is contrary to the school's ethos, it won't.

You might try to come to a private accommodation with the school, but I guarantee you the Constitution is not a get out of class clause. That's just fundamentally not how it works.

Just go to class like every other student. It is an unfortunate fact of life that you will, from time to time, be subjected to things you don't enjoy or that annoy you. Don't try to cut and run - deal with it like the rest of the world does.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Cheers for the advice redherring!


gaeilgegrinds

How was I supposed to know they didn't offer it at Leaving Cert?
How was I supposed to know I'd end up with a teacher like this?

I couldn't have.

randylonghorn

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree with you, Ev, tbh ... there is a tension and a disconnect between the two sides of the teaching that only a Jesuit could really get his head around!

My point was more that there has been *some* progress in how the church thinks about homosexuality, despite some setbacks under the last papacy, but that is often not reflected, or indeed understood, by the ordinary Catholic, or even by those who teach Catholic religious doctrine.

Often, in fact, people justify their own inherent homophobia by reference to Catholic teachings, choosing to ignore the fact that those teachings have moved on over the years. That's always sad, but it's especially sad when a teacher does it, and promulgates their own attitudes to the next generation.

spurious

Catholic schools are NOT public schools - they are privately owned. VECs are public schools.

If you don't want the old time religion and all the nonsense that goes with it, go to a VEC run school. The sooner the Church is taken out of every part of Irish education the better.

Remember this in a few years if you have kids and start playing the nationwide 'I have to get them baptised so I can get them into a school', regardless of whether you actually believe any of it.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

spurious wrote: »

Catholic schools are NOT public schools - they are privately owned. VECs are public schools.

If you don't want the old time religion and all the nonsense that goes with it, go to a VEC run school. The sooner the Church is taken out of every part of Irish education the better.

Remember this in a few years if you have kids and start playing the nationwide 'I have to get them baptised so I can get them into a school', regardless of whether you actually believe any of it.

I know for a FACT it is a public school.

implausible

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

I know for a FACT it is a public school.

If it is a school under the patronage of the Catholic Church, it's technically not a public school.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

deemark wrote: »

If it is a school under the patronage of the Catholic Church, it's technically not a public school.

I don't think the church are actually giving the school money. However I'm not sure.

What I am sure of is that the state is their primary source of funding.

theowen

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

I don't think the church are actually giving the school money. However I'm not sure.

What I am sure of is that the state is their primary source of funding.

They own the buildings sure.

spurious

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

What I am sure of is that the state is their primary source of funding.

Yes, but it is still a privately-owned school, NOT a public school, regardless of who pays for it.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

spurious wrote: »

Yes, but it is still a privately-owned school, NOT a public school, regardless of who pays for it.

Hang on a second. You're telling me that even though all the staff are civil servants, the board of directors are all elected parents of students of the school, and the school is funded (more than likely entirely) by the state, there are absolutely no fees for attending the school, and the state pay for all equipment/building works etc. it's still a privately owned school?

Because that seems absolutely ridiculous to me.

EDIT: Also, I have never heard a word about the "owner" of the school. We would surely have heard it some way or other.

EDIT2: Additionally, it is on the list of VECs.

implausible

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

I don't think the church are actually giving the school money. However I'm not sure.

What I am sure of is that the state is their primary source of funding.

It's not about who pays. The Govt pays the wages of the vast vast majorit of teachers in the country, even teachers in fee-paying 'private' schools.

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

Hang on a second. You're telling me that even though all the staff are civil servants, the board of directors are all elected parents of students of the school, and the school is funded (more than likely entirely) by the state, there are absolutely no fees for attending the school, and the state pay for all equipment/building works etc. it's still a privately owned school?

Neither is it about ownership, technically, it's about patronage. The Catholic Church owns the building (probably) and runs the school for the Dept of Education. It's like an historical contract with the Irish state. Without the church, there would be very few schools in the country.

If you look, you should find that there is a clergy person or a Bishop's representative on the board of management.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

See edit2 of my last post - it's a VEC. There are only parents of students on the board, they are elected each year.

EDIT:

Deemark wrote:

It's not about who pays. The Govt pays the wages of the vast vast majorit of teachers in the country, even teachers in fee-paying 'private' schools.

if that were true, why is it that when the teachers were striking last year my friends and girlfriend, who go to private schools, were not affected? I'm talking about more than one school here.

randylonghorn

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

Hang on a second. You're telling me that even though all the staff are civil servants ...

Firstly, teachers aren't civil servants, they're public servants. It may seem like just a word, but it actually makes a pretty substantial difference in many ways.

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

the board of directors are all elected parents of students of the school, and the school is funded (more than likely entirely) by the state, there are absolutely no fees for attending the school, and the state pay for all equipment/building works etc. it's still a privately owned school?

Quoted from Wikipedia for handiness (not certain about the percentages, but they don't seem far off certainly:

Voluntary secondary schools, or just "secondary schools", are owned and managed by religious communities or private organizations. The state funds 90% of teachers' salaries and 95% of other costs. Such schools cater for 57% of secondary pupils.

Vocational schools are owned and managed by Vocational Education Committees, with 93% of their costs met by the state. These schools educate 28% of secondary pupils.

Comprehensive schools or community schools were established in the 1960s, often by amalgamating voluntary secondary and vocational schools. They are fully funded by the state, and run by local boards of management. Nearly 15% of secondary pupils attend such schools

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

EDIT: Also, I have never heard a word about the "owner" of the school. We would surely have heard it some way or other.

It tends to be something which is so much part of our history nationally and indeed locally that it is pretty much taken for granted unless you are involved at some level.

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

if that were true, why is it that when the teachers were striking last year my friends and girlfriend, who go to private schools, were not affected? I'm talking about more than one school here.

I'm not sure, tbh, but possibly because the teachers in such schools don't tend to be unionised / have different contractual arrangements with the schools themselves?

ldxo15wus6fpgm

randylonghorn wrote: »

Firstly, teachers aren't civil servants, they're public servants. It may seem like just a word, but it actually makes a pretty substantial difference in many ways.

Ok, wasn't sure of that, cheers for the info!

However, as for the rest, I have established that my school is definitely a state school. I am absolutely 100% sure of this, so there's no point in anyone telling me it's not.

implausible

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

See edit2 of my last post - it's a VEC. There are only parents of students on the board, they are elected each year.

if that were true, why is it that when the teachers were striking last year my friends and girlfriend, who go to private schools, were not affected? I'm talking about more than one school here.

Just because they didn't strike, doesn't mean they aren't public servants which they are (unless you're talking about a grind school, which is run as a business). It just means they aren't in a union.

It is impossible that there are only parents on the board of a VEC school. The board of management must consist of staff representatives, parent representatives and political representatives.

If you were in a VEC school, surely you would have noticed before now

Flaregon

just dont enter the class and say your a member of a religion not teached.
I'm quite sure they don't preach about Xenu in school ROFL .

spurious

If it's a VEC school, then it is usually inter-denominational and you can't be 'made' go to Catholic faith based classes.

Unless the school formed as an amalgamation between a Catholic school and a VEC school?

ldxo15wus6fpgm

deemark wrote: »

Just because they didn't strike, doesn't mean they aren't public servants which they are (unless you're talking about a grind school, which is run as a business). It just means they aren't in a union.

It is impossible that there are only parents on the board of a VEC school. The board of management must consist of staff representatives, parent representatives and political representatives.

If you were in a VEC school, surely you would have noticed before now

VEC is not in the title of the school, however I managed to find out by looking at some school documents. I can't give too much information here, it would be too easy to find out my exact school if I did. However, it is a state school, fact.

implausible

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

VEC is not in the title of the school, however I managed to find out by looking at some school documents. I can't give too much information here, it would be too easy to find out my exact school if I did. However, it is a state school, fact.

It wouldn't be in the title of the school; the school would be called X College or Y Community College. County or City of Z VEC would be on the letterheads and website etc. Does your school take part in VEC sports days; are most of the teachers TUI members (as opposed to being in the ASTI); and is your school on the county or city VEC's website?

If so, it should be a lot easier to opt out of religion classes and I'm surprised that this teacher's attitude and teaching is tolerated.

randylonghorn

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

VEC is not in the title of the school, however I managed to find out by looking at some school documents. I can't give too much information here, it would be too easy to find out my exact school if I did. However, it is a state school, fact.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like it may be a community school (see my post above) which are usually handled administratively by the VECs ... in which case this may well apply ...

spurious wrote: »

Unless the school formed as an amalgamation between a Catholic school and a VEC school?

... and something may have been written into the agreement to amalgamate to 'safeguard the teaching of the faith' in the new school.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

No VEC days.
Don't know what union any of the teachers are in.
The school is on the VEC site of my county.

As I have now said a number of times, I am certain it's a public school.

randylonghorn

Vicente Nutty Sulfur wrote: »

As I have now said a number of times, I am certain it's a public school.

No one is doubting you! ... especially as all non-private schools in Ireland are 'public schools' in a broad sense. The phrase doesn't mean much in Ireland really. In England if you speak of a 'public school' you mean (paradoxically) a private or independent school, like Rugby for example.

In the US, there has been a long history of debate and indeed court cases about the issue of prayer in the classroom in 'public schools' and similar issues. The US Constitution's First Amendment has been interpreted as implying that public school teachers, principals, and boards be religiously neutral:

- They may not promote a particular religion as being superior to any other.
- They may not promote religion in general as superior to a secular approach to life.
- Conversely, they may not promote secularism in general as superior to a religious approach to life, nor may they may be antagonistic to religion in general or a particular religious belief in particular, nor, indeed, may they be antagonistic to secularism.
- In short, they must neither advance nor inhibit religion; they are required to remain neutral.

That however is the US Constitution.

The fact that a school is a public school here implies none of those things.

But anyway, I honestly think that's all a red herring.

While I sympathise with you if you're being subjected to a doctrinaire extremist a couple of hours a week, nevertheless given that you have a mere week or two to go, my advice to you would still be to let it slide off your back and put your mental energy into your studies rather than into issues of constitutional law. If you do go on to study law next year, you will discover that the words "simple" and "straightforward" have been banished by lawyers centuries ago as likely to lead to a reduction in their fees!

In this case there are a number of clauses in the constitution re religion, the freedom to express it and the right not to be discriminated against on religious grounds which have to be balanced one against the other, to the lawyers' delight. There is a body of case law and precedent. There is the whole complicated history of the evolution of the Irish educational system, and the different types of schools, and how all of that interacts with the above. By the sounds of it, there are local factors, and personalities, and people who like or don't like other people, all muddying the waters.

If I were you, I would tune out of the whole damn thing and focus on your LC (and please don't tell me that's what you're trying to do by fighting for these extra study classes, because whatever about earlier in the year, at this stage the potential gain is much less than the potential expenditure of time and mental energy! )

Maybe you can work up the whole question for a college project if you do get into law, and get some good out of the experience that way?

LutherBlissett

If you get into Law, you'll soon discover that the Constitution is not some sort of trump card, to be played when you get fed up with the status quo.

The mark of a good lawyer is one who will stay and debate issues, not one who leaves when they think they might get bored or have a moral objection. Law is fundamentally underpinned by a necessity to engage with issues, not sweep them under the carpet and ignore them.

There's also a hierarchy of sources. In terms of a school, unless you are willing to pay the thousands of euros associated with a constitutional battle, school rules outrank the Constitution.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

LutherBlissett wrote: »

If you get into Law, you'll soon discover that the Constitution is not some sort of trump card, to be played when you get fed up with the status quo.

The mark of a good lawyer is one who will stay and debate issues, not one who leaves when they think they might get bored or have a moral objection. Law is fundamentally underpinned by a necessity to engage with issues, not sweep them under the carpet and ignore them.

There's also a hierarchy of sources. In terms of a school, unless you are willing to pay the thousands of euros associated with a constitutional battle, school rules outrank the Constitution.

If you'd actually read all of my posts you would have seen that this is my last resort. I have tried again and again to sort this out. I have gone to everyone who can actually do something about it and would listen, and nothing has happened. I have told the teacher along with the rest of my class that she is extremely biased when she's teaching us and she had none of it. There is no point trying to talk to this woman and expecting to be treated like anything more than a 9 year old.
I have stayed and debated, I've been doing it for the last 8 months. Now the class is essentially a joke, and a complete waste of time. If you want to continue attempting this poor attempt at a psychological trick (that is, trying to tell me I won't be a good lawyer if I don't shut up and swallow it) be my guest. You're not much better than the religion teacher talking down to me like that.

Also, the part in bold is completely against the principles of justice. No one should have to have the money to go to court for their rights to be granted to them, that's absolutely ridiculous. That's like saying the constitution doesn't apply to poor people, because they can't afford to take anyone to court. In fact, it's not like saying that, that's exactly what you're saying. The school rules do not outrank the constitution because I don't have the money for a big legal battle. The only reason I was unsure of the legality of the situation was because I had signed a document agreeing to follow the school rules. I have now been informed that you can't sign away your rights; they can only be balanced against the rights of others.