How Can This be Stopped?

dixiefly

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0503/poisoning.html

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Ireland
Protected birds killed by poison
Monday, 3 May 2010 14:53
In what has been described as the worst spate of poisoning in recent years here, 10 protected birds of prey have been confirmed poisoned.

The birds, which were found over the past few weeks around the country, include three Red Kites, two white-tailed eagles, a golden eagle, three buzzards and a peregrine falcon.

Toxicology tests confirmed that some of the birds were poisoned by ingesting meat baits laced with alphachloralose, while others were poisoned by carbofuran, a substance previously used as a pesticide but now illegal in Ireland.

AdvertisementThe two red kites and a peregrine were found dead in Co Wicklow, a third red kite released in Northern Ireland was found dead in Co Kildare, a golden eagle in Co Leitrim, and buzzards in west Waterford, east Cork and Donegal (one of which recovered from poisoning).

Within the last few weeks two white-tailed eagles were found dead near Beaufort, Co Kerry.

A male white-tailed eagle released in Killarney National Park in 2008 was found in the River Laune near Beaufort by Stewart Stephens, Laune Angling Club, on 4 April and recovered the following day.

A second male white-tailed eagle, released in 2007 was found on land in Beaufort on 12 April. Both eagles were in excellent condition and had been surviving well in the wild for 2-3 years until poisoned.

An investigation is ongoing by the Department of Agriculture and gardaí in Killarney.

'The loss of a further two white-tailed eagles at this time is devastating,' said Dr Allan Mee, Manager of the White-tailed Eagle Reintroduction Project in Kerry.

'The older male could have been one of the first birds to breed in the wild in Ireland in over 100 years had it survived. Indiscriminate poisoning is literally killing our chances of re-establishing a population here,' he added.

The deaths of these birds brings to 13 the total number of white-tailed eagles found dead, seven of which have now been confirmed poisoned, all in Co Kerry.

55 birds have been released in the county since 2007.


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Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0503/poisoning.html

captain_boycott

Perhaps the question is "can this be stopped" !

I fear the answer is no - we should spare the birds and halt any further introductions.

Maybe when this country starts to take its habitat and species protection obligations seriously at government level (just look at all the EU rulings we are in breach of) ,and the law of the land is seen to be enforced, then we can look at restoring some of the once native wildlife again. Until then its a waste of effort and birds, and landowners will continue to pollute, burn and poison with impunity - makes me sick!

Morganna

This country never will cherish its wildlife .its totally disgusting this senseless slaughter ,

meathstevie

I know full well using meat bait is illegal but it doesn't necessarily mean that the birds that were killed were the birds that were targeted. The end result is the same though, dead birds, a lot of effort, time and money wasted.

Personally I'm not fully convinced of the merits of reintroducing these larger birds of prey but when it's being done it's a waste not seeing it come right.

cuddlycavies

it's gonna be difficult to stop. We live in a country invested with lazy rednecks who have lived for generations in a state of war with the country's wildlife. They will not listen so will not learn.

magicbastarder

dixiefly wrote: »

Toxicology tests confirmed that some of the birds were poisoned by ingesting meat baits laced with alphachloralose, while others were poisoned by carbofuran, a substance previously used as a pesticide but now illegal in Ireland.

so do they suspect the carbofuran is left over from before the ban, or is it being illegally brought it? how long ago was it banned?

and how useful is alphachloralose when not being used in the manner above? would banning it achieve anything, or would farmers just move on to a different poison?

LostCovey

magicbastarder wrote: »

so do they suspect the carbofuran is left over from before the ban, or is it being illegally brought it? how long ago was it banned?

and how useful is alphachloralose when not being used in the manner above? would banning it achieve anything, or would farmers just move on to a different poison?

I think they would move on to something else from the garage, or from granny's medicines. It is the mindsets that need to change, and unfortunately it only takes one or two loopers in the wrong place to do a lot of damage. Especially the young birds - they seem very dependent on carrion and very susceptible to illegal poisoning.

Most farmers are no threat to the birds and see no threat from them. I despair at the few, really no idea what you can really do at a practical level.

It is mostly an educational gap, in terms of education about wildlife. Not talking about formal education either, just an understanding of where these birds fit in.

LostCovey

Tester46

Well, one way to try to spur the government to action is to write to the ministers (John Gormley, Environment and Minister Smith, Agriculture). Below is the email I sent them this morning. Feel free to cut & paste!


Dear Minister Gormley,

Since my last email below (which was not even acknowledged by you or your officials), two more re-introduced eagles have been poisoned, this time Sea Eagles in Kerry (see http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0504/1224269640141.html ).

As Minister for the Environment, are you not shamed and embarrassed? You should be.

You might please bear in mind that these news reports of poisoned animals and backward Irish attitudes travel the world very quickly. Right now, there are potential visitors to Ireland who are cancelling their plans in disgust over this. Quite apart from the disgraceful ecological consequences of these farmers' actions, this is having (and will continue to have) a profound economic effect on the country as word spreads internationally.

How can we attract tourists to Killarney when it is the epicentre of eagle poisoning? Why is it that this government, including its minority partners, will only be roused to action when there is something in it for them?

The voters will have their say at the next election Minister.

Yours faithfully,

LostCovey

meathstevie wrote: »

I know full well using meat bait is illegal but it doesn't necessarily mean that the birds that were killed were the birds that were targeted.

Almost certainly foxes and hooded crows were the targets. I would be amazed if someone was targeting them

meathstevie wrote: »

Personally I'm not fully convinced of the merits of reintroducing these larger birds of prey but when it's being done it's a waste not seeing it come right.

The thing is, these large birds of prey are iconic species and a very simple index of health when you look at an ecosystem. An ecosystem that can support these birds of prey is healthy and functioning. Such a place (and they do exist in Scandinavia, in the UK, and elsewhere) gives confidence about the quality and safety of the air, water, food etc. A safe place to swim, surf, eat, drink. You may be right, it appears that the Irish countryside is not safe for them. This is the countryside where we get our food.

These birds are sampling machines, in a few random places around the island. And they are finding that there is meat laced with carbofurans, alphachloralose, strychnine, nitroxynil and other chemicals lying around on our hills/farmland. Where does the stuff the eagles don't find end up? What becomes of the poisoned carcasses (crows/foxes/gulls, etc) that don't have a satellite tag? Who is drinking the water they die in? Whose food has been eating the grass that uneaten chemical-laden baits disintegrated on?

Us.

There is a straight conflict between our determination to promote ourselves as a clean and green food-producing island, and the serial killing of these raptors with a range of illegal poisons and agrochemicals.

We are getting a reputation as a chemical version of Malta when it comes to bird life.

LostCovey

Mothman

This is a really unfortunate turn of events and this thread is another in a long sequence of similar threads during past couple years.

I think to tackle this needs to come from top down. I'm sure it a small minority and in probably most cases the birds are not the intended target, but I feel there comes a time when no amount of education will "educate" these few.

So I think its down to law and enforcement and a politcial will to do soemthing about. Sadly this appears to be lacking. The perpetrators need to be made fearful to do these indiscrimatent acts.

So apart from emails and letters such Tester46 has demonstrated, what else can we as members and readers of Boards.ie do to bring a change of fortune for these magnificant birds.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

While I know we can't apportion blame for these poisonings let there be no pussy footing around the fact that our so-called nature loving Gun Clubs must take some responsibilty if not for these case for a general disregard for the environment. I have personally seen their attempts to keep a balance of Nature that suits only their ends. They trap birds, dig out Fox dens, lay poison, and whatever it takes to increase their chances of bagging a bird.

The "keepers of the countryside" don't shine too brightly either. Poisonong Crows or Foxes for taking lambs, draining bogs, silage rap like flags flapping from hedgerows, fertiliser bags floating in streams.

I think it's time to drop the re-introduction programmes until we can truly say we have laws, and the determination to enforce them, that will protect all our wildlife.

Sorry for the rant but.........

jap gt

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

While I know we can't apportion blame for these poisonings let there be no pussy footing around the fact that our so-called nature loving Gun Clubs must take some responsibilty if not for these case for a general disregard for the environment. I have personally seen their attempts to keep a balance of Nature that suits only their ends. They trap birds, dig out Fox dens, lay poison, and whatever it takes to increase their chances of bagging a bird.

The "keepers of the countryside" don't shine too brightly either. Poisonong Crows or Foxes for taking lambs, draining bogs, silage rap like flags flapping from hedgerows, fertiliser bags floating in streams.

I think it's time to drop the re-introduction programmes until we can truly say we have laws, and the determination to enforce them, that will protect all our wildlife.

Sorry for the rant but.........

where are you getting the idea that gun clubs poison birds, gun clubs hunt for sport, what if a gun dog was to happen across a poisoned bird, so dont tar us all the same :mad:

Jim Martin

We should do like they do in the UK and have a designated member of the police force in each county (maybe they don't in each county per se) who is responsible for wildlife legal issues! It works!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

jap gt wrote: »

where are you getting the idea that gun clubs poison birds, gun clubs hunt for sport, what if a gun dog was to happen across a poisoned bird, so dont tar us all the same :mad:

I have personally in the past 12 months dealt with a case of 1 Buzzard and 2 Hooded Crows poisoned in a field by a baited Wood Pigeon left by Gun Club members. When questioned they said that they were after the Crows as they take young game. FACT. This same reason was given by their neighbouring Club when 3 traps for Crows were discovered.

As for the dangers to the dogs:you'd have to ask the head cases involved!

I agree that good Gun Clubs hunt for sport but several take action to "improve" that sport which contradict a true belief in Nature or balance.

Kess73

To be frank, the ignorance in Ireland towards wildlife is staggering, from the highest authories to the ordinary person in the street.

The "Green" Minister for the enviroment is a total joke also. He has no stomach for dealing with issues and is happiest when trying to portray his faux enviromental concerns without ever actually doing anything of genuine note.


Reintroduction programmes should be stopped in Ireland because the Irish are incapable of allowing them to flourish, unlike most of the other countries who have reintroduction programmes. Maybe there is a better level of education and awareness in the other countries, coupled with less ignorance.

Also any "green" grants involved for farmers or land owners should be done away with. It has proven to be a waste of tax payers money. I would much prefer to see that money being divered to the various animal welfare centres and the like where it will be doing some good.

mr socco

What kind of lowlife redneck would be involved in a gun club anyway. We should start leaving poisoned turnips around the country, would surely get rid of a fair few of them.

jap gt

mr socco wrote: »

What kind of lowlife redneck would be involved in a gun club anyway. We should start leaving poisoned turnips around the country, would surely get rid of a fair few of them.

maybe had over to the hunting section and ask that question, as this thread is about birds getting poisoned, not about people having to justify there pass times to you:mad:

stevoman

Keep it civil here folks. First and last warning.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

jap gt wrote: »

maybe had over to the hunting section and ask that question, as this thread is about birds getting poisoned, not about people having to justify there pass times to you

In fairness it's a Nature issue and this is a Nature forum where it is reasonable to raise any questions regarding Gun Clubs and their impact on wildlife. Nobody should have to go to the hunting forum as nobody is asking anybody to justify their pastime.

Vegeta

Anyone know how much research was done with regards the level of poison being used prior to the release of Golden Eagles and other large birds of prey.

Are these losses in line with those levels of poison usage?

LostCovey

Vegeta wrote: »

Anyone know how much research was done with regards the level of poison being used prior to the release of Golden Eagles and other large birds of prey.

Are these losses in line with those levels of poison usage?

Pretty difficult subject to research. I imagine it would be hard to collect robust data if you turned up in these areas with a clipboard asking questions. You might not get totally straight answers.

Also all the evidence suggests that this is a very small minority, so even if they felt confessional, it would be hard to design a survey that would find them, You could easily interview a couple of hundred people and miss the critical individuals doing this.

Unlike the UK, we do not have a surveillance protocol for wild animals/birds found dead and no figures available. These re-introduced birds are the "miner's canary", and their fate suggests that the Irish uplands are pretty toxic places for wild carnivores.

LostCovey

LostCovey

jap gt wrote: »

where are you getting the idea that gun clubs poison birds, gun clubs hunt for sport, what if a gun dog was to happen across a poisoned bird, so dont tar us all the same :mad:

One of the recent investigations of a suspected poisoning of an eagle in the west of Ireland turned up direct evidence (admissions by a culprit) that one fairly well known and well-respected gun club has/had members who used alphachloralose-laced baits thrown into fields from a car driving through lowland farms to increase their tally in their annual 'vermin competition'.

Magpies/Hoodies/Foxes would be picked up while driving the route the following day. The person who owned up to it is a current/very recent committee member in the club, and indicated that he was not the only one in the club doing it.

I am not naming the person or club here, but I understand it is being followed up.

I am not making this up because nobody could dream up something so bizarre.

There was NO evidence that this practice in this particular club caused any deaths in birds of prey, but the area has beeen a 'black hole' for Buzzards. They move in and they are never seen again. It was reckless, irresponsible, amnd in recent years totally illegal.

However I have no evidence this particular practice caused deaths, but I can confirm it was going on.

I don't think it is widespread either - as with farmers, I wouldn't want to tar all gun clubs.

LostCovey

Vegeta

LostCovey wrote: »

Pretty difficult subject to research. I imagine it would be hard to collect robust data if you turned up in these areas with a clipboard asking questions. You might not get totally straight answers.

Also all the evidence suggests that this is a very small minority, so even if they felt confessional, it would be hard to design a survey that would find them, You could easily interview a couple of hundred people and miss the critical individuals doing this.

Unlike the UK, we do not have a surveillance protocol for wild animals/birds found dead and no figures available. These re-introduced birds are the "miner's canary", and their fate suggests that the Irish uplands are pretty toxic places for wild carnivores.

LostCovey

This does seem to be the case, miner's canary that is.

You're right about it being difficult to research but I thought there would be some guess or projected losses to poison.

Vegeta

LostCovey wrote: »

One of the recent investigations of a suspected poisoning of an eagle in the west of Ireland turned up direct evidence (admissions by a culprit) that one fairly well known and well-respected gun club has/had members who used alphachloralose-laced baits thrown into fields from a car driving through lowland farms to increase their tally in their annual 'vermin competition'.

Magpies/Hoodies/Foxes would be picked up while driving the route the following day. The person who owned up to it is a current/very recent committee member in the club, and indicated that he was not the only one in the club doing it.

I am not naming the person or club here, but I understand it is being followed up.

I am not making this up because nobody could dream up something so bizarre.

There was NO evidence that this practice in this particular club caused any deaths in birds of prey, but the area has beeen a 'black hole' for Buzzards. They move in and they are never seen again. It was reckless, irresponsible, amnd in recent years totally illegal.

However I have no evidence this particular practice caused deaths, but I can confirm it was going on.

I don't think it is widespread either - as with farmers, I wouldn't want to tar all gun clubs.

LostCovey

Jesus that is disgusting carry on. I hope the full force of the law comes down on clowns that carry on like that

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Vegeta wrote: »

Anyone know how much research was done with regards the level of poison being used prior to the release of Golden Eagles and other large birds of prey.

Are these losses in line with those levels of poison usage?

Probably about the same levels if not more in the past. Remember it is quite likely that the birds of prey were not the target of the poisoning.

Vegeta

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

Probably about the same levels if not more in the past. Remember it is quite likely that the birds of prey were not the target of the poisoning.

Oh I understand that the birds of prey are not the target of the poison but I just wondered how much information the folks releasing the birds had/have.

Were they aware of the levels of poison being used (rough guesses here, not pin point accurate empirical data) and released birds anyway?

Were they unaware and the levels have surprised them, despite adequate research?

Were they unaware of the levels of poison and did no research at all?

I have wondered about that for a long time.

Every time I hear about another poisoned bird it pisses me off as it is not hard to get perfectly legal prey specific live catch traps. If the wrong species is caught they can be released without harm

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055816365&highlight=ladder+trap

LostCovey

Vegeta wrote: »

Oh I understand that the birds of prey are not the target of the poison but I just wondered how much information the folks releasing the birds had/have.

Were they aware of the levels of poison being used (rough guesses here, not pin point accurate empirical data) and released birds anyway?

Were they unaware and the levels have surprised them, despite adequate research?

Were they unaware of the levels of poison and did no research at all?

I have wondered about that for a long time.

Every time I hear about another poisoned bird it pisses me off as it is not hard to get perfectly legal prey specific live catch traps. If the wrong species is caught they can be released without harm

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055816365&highlight=ladder+trap

It was researched as part of a complete package of parameters that would have included suitability of terrain & cover, potential nest sites, historical records of the species at the sites, prey density, illegal shooting, and of course levels of illegal poisoning. The overall results of this work informed the decision, as well as the choice of species & site selection.

I would say the level of poisoning is a surprise to be honest. Most of these poisoned eagles, despite their size would not have been recovered in the ordinary course of events until they were very decomposed or reduced to skeletons. The fact that these reintroduced birds are wearing fairly sophisticated satellite tags has meant that the project staff have been alerted immediately to a death, and have also been able to immediately pinpoint the carcass and retrieve it.

None of this applies to wild raptors and scavengers, so we must assume that there is a silent and continuing carnage in these species. No satellite is tracking their movements & death, and if carcasses are found, they are beyond any testing. Thus the great information gap that existed about illegal poisoning of wild birds of prey in Ireland.

The satellite tags show the bird's movements in a fair bit of detail, and allow some authoritative statements about the type of land where the birds have been feeding. I don't want to offend anyone, but it's not cattle, pig or horse farms, not free range poultry farms, and it's not tillage either. Or mushrooms. The satellite data has not so far produced enough evidence for a successful prosecution, but they have shown us a pretty grim picture of illegal and totally reckless use of poisons by a small minority of Irish farmers.

However no doubt plenty of Badgers and Buzzards are dying out of sight and have been for decades. There was really no way to quantify that. And as we have seen, our native cunning in matters of poisoning means that merely obtaining records for the sales of alphachloralose would not have helped.

Anyway this looks like this will all be academic, two or three more raptor extinctions will be chalked up by our chemical wizards in the hills, the projects will be wrecked and our country's name in the mud.

Ah shure it's the Shtate thats payin' for it.

LostCovey

scartman1

The purchase of these poisons should be clearly regulated, as they are indiscriminate killers. I believe a small minority of farmers are still involved in controlling fox numbers by the methods of poisoning and the eagle deaths are predominantly a side consequence of this activity.
The Government and the Green Party in particular should tackle this issue more practically.
1. All farmers should sign a declaration stating what poisons that they have in their possession. The production of this statement could be linked in with the receipt of the SFP. Farmers with a stock of poisons dating back years should give them up in an amnesty to hand them in to the Dept of Agriculture. Fines for having unregistered poisons thereafter on your property should be defined and imposed. Poisons could also be rationed depending on demonstrating a need for same.
2.Control of fox numbers could be improved by the reintroduction of a bounty on fox pelts. This would lead to the control of foxes by shooting and other means rather than poisoning.
3. Should poisons be permitted, and it is my belief that they should not, they should only be permitted to be laid in a manner to avoid other species other than the target species being poisoned. I'm sure a system of designing a fox only accessible container for the the baited carcasses can be developed. Laying poisons in any other fashion would be punishable by defined fines.
4. All poisons if they are to be utilised shall be those that do not allow secondary contamination.
5. Poisons directed at Grey Crows and Magpies should also be laid in a manner to ensure that the targets are the only casualties of the poisons.
6. A small bounty may also improve the chances of control of these vermin species by shooting.
7. Farmers and landowners who can demonstrate positive actions that improve the diversity of wildlife on their properties should be compensated for such actions. The Reps scheme would be an ideal process for administering this. Specific measures for the protection of eagles such as demonstrating poison free zones and providing suitable nesting sites could be considered.

stevoman

IMO poisons should be outlawed full stop. It is a horrendous death for any creature and if some species do need to be controlled for whatever purpose it should be done in a more humane manner.


thas my 2 cents.

saraz86

Saw this in the news, v sad. If they catch anyone responsible they should make an example of them.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

scartman1 wrote: »

... I believe a small minority of farmers are still involved in controlling fox numbers by the methods of poisoning and the eagle deaths are predominantly a side consequence of this activity...
The Government and the Green Party in particular should tackle this issue ...

You are immediately laying blame on farmers, without approtioning any responsibilty on the hunting fraternity; when Gun Clubs have been caught illegally poisoning more often than farmers ever have been. I'm not saying farmers are clean in this but just get the facts straight and don't go laying blame without any proof.

Let's leave politics aside shall we? The Greens are a political party with certain philosophies. They are not a Nature or Bird Watching party. They are not a countryside party. Also "the government and the Green party" should either read "the Government" or "Fianna Fail, The Green party, and and independant TD". Nature is best discussed by leaving political agenda outside.

Vegeta

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

You are immediately laying blame on farmers, without approtioning any responsibilty on the hunting fraternity; when Gun Clubs have been caught illegally poisoning more often than farmers ever have been. I'm not saying farmers are clean in this but just get the facts straight and don't go laying blame without any proof.

I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have the figures for this

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have the figures for this

Figures! Figures! I'm not permitted to give them to you but I was there I caught the pups responsible on many many occasions. Not Sea Eagles but Buzzards and many other birds and mammals. I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible. Have you????

scartman1

Stevoman
I agree with you, it must be a terrible way for an animal to die and I would not do do it myself. While I have shot foxes to control their numbers I do not hate them, but I have met many that do and they treat them as many do treat rats. Even rats should if practicable not be poisoned but killed with spring traps and other devices that kill quickly.

In fact until recently I thought that Poisons like Strycnyne and Arsenic had been outlawed. Years ago many farms had poison notices up, but in recent years their prevalence had diminished, I thought this was so due to legislation prohibitting their use, but i was wrong it seems.

Alun

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible.

Out of interest, has this ever led to any prosecutions?

jap gt

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

Figures! Figures! I'm not permitted to give them to you but I was there I caught the pups responsible on many many occasions. Not Sea Eagles but Buzzards and many other birds and mammals. I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible. Have you????

dont see why you cant give the figures, was any one you have caught been convicted in court?

Vegeta

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

Figures! Figures! I'm not permitted to give them to you but I was there I caught the pups responsible on many many occasions. Not Sea Eagles but Buzzards and many other birds and mammals. I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible. Have you????

Sorry Winston Future Ear but you've made a statement that more clubs have been caught illegally poisoning than farmers

I just wanted to know if this was true or not
Is this in your experience?
In the recorded history of the state and therefore an actual fact as opposed to an opinion

Why are you making this personal?

You made a broad statement and you must have based this on some fact or records of court convictions or the like.

Surely you're not letting your personal experience colour your opinion of the majority of gun clubs?

scartman1

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

You are immediately laying blame on farmers, without approtioning any responsibilty on the hunting fraternity; when Gun Clubs have been caught illegally poisoning more often than farmers ever have been. I'm not saying farmers are clean in this but just get the facts straight and don't go laying blame without any proof..

I'm not saying that some gunclubs are not responcible for some careless use of poisons and would of course not condone it. It is obviously a combination of factors that have led to the poisoning of the Sea Eagles, each to a lesser or greater degree. I think being fair to my post that the tenor of my argument could reasonably be taken to be anti poisoning, but if it was to be permitted by the laws of the country, some of the measures could be applied to anybody using poisons, not simply farmers. As regards proof, you willadmit that I'm not running a court case, but it is reasonable to assume that Farmers who poison sheep carcases, close to where the dead eagles have been recovered are responsible. Proving it is another days work.

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

Let's leave politics aside shall we? The Greens are a political party with certain philosophies. They are not a Nature or Bird Watching party. They are not a countryside party. Also "the government and the Green party" should either read "the Government" or "Fianna Fail, The Green party, and and independant TD". Nature is best discussed by leaving political agenda outside.

Again, I was simply trying to contribute positively to the argument and apportioning some responsibility to those that are in a position to run the country for us. I think that if these issues are of concern to us then it is only a good thing that those that we elect know and respond to our wishes. It in reality is an important means of affecting change. I am not a member of a political party, and why I mentioned the Greens was that they should be more aware of the importance of this issue given its core values, and the Minister for the Environment, who is responsible for the Eagles, is a Green. You have mentioned that they are not a countryside party and this is so, but they are in a position to have an influence for the good and the Bad, as are all the parties, particularly those in Government.

I am on your side of the argument, I think that it is a Utter Disgrace that a few misinformed people have caused this damage to this program of the eagle reintroduction. I'm simply giving my opinion as to how we can best influence a positive result for this situation.

Mothman

scartman1 wrote: »

I am on your side of the argument,

With regard to the subject in hand, I think everyone here is on the same side and collectively I'd like us to band together to come up with practical solutions to indiscriminate poisoning.

Kess73

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

You are immediately laying blame on farmers, without approtioning any responsibilty on the hunting fraternity; when Gun Clubs have been caught illegally poisoning more often than farmers ever have been. I'm not saying farmers are clean in this but just get the facts straight and don't go laying blame without any proof.

Let's leave politics aside shall we? The Greens are a political party with certain philosophies. They are not a Nature or Bird Watching party. They are not a countryside party. Also "the government and the Green party" should either read "the Government" or "Fianna Fail, The Green party, and and independant TD". Nature is best discussed by leaving political agenda outside.

Actually the Green Party and their leader should not be left out of it. Gormley in particular seems quite fond of showing at the launches for reintroduction schemes and likes getting his photo taken at such events, and he is quick to give soundbites with regards to his interest and involvement, so if he is quick to put his name to things by turning up for pictures for the papers, then it is only right that people are just as quick to ask questions of him and his party regarding these issues.


As for farmers and gunclubs laying poison, I would imagine that there is a majority that do things the right way with regards to lessening their impacts upon wildlife and the enviroment, but there is a minority that do damage that belays their numbers, and as such can wrongly cause the tarring of that majority.

danbohan

cuddlycavies wrote: »

it's gonna be difficult to stop. We live in a country invested with lazy rednecks who have lived for generations in a state of war with the country's wildlife. They will not listen so will not learn.

yes those rednecks know nothing about the countryside , it should be handed over to dublin 4 greenies in their 4 wheel drives , they are real experts !

LostCovey

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have the figures for this

I won't call you a liar, Vegeta, but do you have figures for that?

LostCovey

cuddlycavies

danbohan wrote: »

yes those rednecks know nothing about the countryside , it should be handed over to dublin 4 greenies in their 4 wheel drives , they are real experts !

Nobody is suggesting D4 greenies running ''the countryside''.
But if you think that our farmers act as responsibly towards wildlife as say their english counterparts, then you are in denial. Despite a hugely bigger population over there, reintroduction projects have worked.
Right through my childhood, I remember time after time, apperances and reports of rare birds were usually followed by reports of their shootings. Farmers that I knew left traps on posts, poisoned meat in fields and expressed surprise where an owl was found dead on the post or a raptor poioned by the meat.
It's something of a miracle that Buzzards are so common now. Interestingly theyy are probably most common around Dublin Metero area Must be all the D4 greenies in their 4WDs.

BarryM

While waiting for the answer about the actual convictions from the supposed 'source' on here, can anyone answer the q of the relationship between the numbers of eagles released and the numbers poisoned and the breeding rate of the released eagles? I raise the q because in nature all sorts of things happen, including poisoning, so is the release programme creating a population of the eagles which can withstand the cull rate??

Of course I abhor the poisoning. If I recall the original programme included discussions with the local farmers but one has to presume there are those who won't play ball.

cuddlycavies

Answers. No prosecutions re poisoning of eagles.
No breeding of white tails as yet.
One third of forty odd released birds poisoned or shot.
Only Golden eagle born and fledged in Ireland last year poisoned.
White tail poisoned last week was of breeding age.

Farmers? well, last week I was on the Kerry way walking and keeping an eye out for them. Spoke to a shepherd in Black valley about sightings. He said they were on the upper lake. He had seen them. he then added, ''they're supposed to be a coastal bird you know''. Pub talk no doubt. The eagles that bred for centuries at Wicklows Lough Bray were white tails, hardly coastal.
On the way through the Bride valley I saw two substantial meals for the birds, a drowned lamb and a goat caught in a fence.
On reaching Glencar, I spoke to the hotelier about the eagles. He told me his joy of seeing one soaring whilst having coffee at the lovely steeping stones cafe in Bride valley. Only to find two birds had been poisoned in Glencar valley. He confirmed for me that the eagles are not the targets here. it's just a lazy way of dealing with grey crows amd foxes.
I dont know what the real answer is. But the shame felt by the hotelier is not generally matched in the farming community.

nilhg

One thing which surprises me about this ongoing problem is the amount of carbofuran being used as a poison and the apparent lack of reaction from the Dept of Ag, I know that they have a special investigations unit who have huge powers to inspect and search premises and take prosecutions if they find anything which shouldn't be there. Carbofuran is banned here now but was legal once (I used it myself, Yaltox granules were sown with beet seed to stop insects destroying the crop) but old stocks should long ago have been used or returned for destruction.

News travels fast, a few farm visits in the areas where the birds are being found dead would send a message.

scartman1

nilhg wrote: »

One thing which surprises me about this ongoing problem is the amount of carbofuran being used as a poison and the apparent lack of reaction from the Dept of Ag, I know that they have a special investigations unit who have huge powers to inspect and search premises and take prosecutions if they find anything which shouldn't be there. Carbofuran is banned here now but was legal once (I used it myself, Yaltox granules were sown with beet seed to stop insects destroying the crop) but old stocks should long ago have been used or returned for destruction.

News travels fast, a few farm visits in the areas where the birds are being found dead would send a message.

Yes i agree, this would yield results.

magicbastarder

Kess73 wrote: »

Also any "green" grants involved for farmers or land owners should be done away with. It has proven to be a waste of tax payers money. I would much prefer to see that money being divered to the various animal welfare centres and the like where it will be doing some good.

you mean abandon the REPS scheme (or whatever is left of it), etc.?
animal welfare centres are barely a drop in the ocean - there's not much point in nursing a badger back to health if there is no habitat to release them into.

i'm far from an expert, but i expect that the amount of money you could muster to give to such centres and any other environmental organisations would be of miniscule benefit compared to getting farmers on side. they're the ones who own most of the land.

Birdnuts

Reports coming of yet another eagle found dead in Kerry:mad:. This madness needs to stop. It appears this spring has marked an escalation in the activities of the scum who are now well on their way to wiping out some of the most magnificiant wildlife we have from Irish skies for a second time. I would appeal to the people behind these projects to halt further re-introductions immediatly and try to re-capture as many eagles as possible in the west of Ireland for return to their donor countries ASAP.The continuing lack of action by the Irish authorities is not only an insult to the hardworking people behind the project, the ordinary taxpayer etc. but also to the donor countries. This is rapidly becoming not alone a conservation crisis, but an animal welfare one too. Despite all the taxpayer and EU money pumped into rural areas it seems we are rapidly returning to the dark days of the recent past when the likes of strcynine laced bait was found in every second field in the Irish countyside. I'm begining to doubt if even the likes of buzzards can hack this type of sustained onslaught over large areas of this state.

PS: Given that recent information suggests a countrywide problem, I for one have deceided that me and my family will boycott all Irish lamb products until this situation is properly addressed by both the Irish authorities and farming organisations. And I would encourage others to do the same given that whats happening in Ireland is now being widley reported in the UK and has the potential to do signficant damage to the irish food/agri sector given has so much of the industry sales is based on our "green":rolleyes: image. Bord Bia/failte etc. can only get away with spinning this type of BS for so long in the face of mounting evidence to the contray:(

greeneyedspirit

Birdnuts wrote: »

Reports coming of yet another eagle found dead in Kerry:mad:. This madness needs to stop.

Indeed - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0511/breaking54.html

Sickening. absolutely sickening.

from the article

All three eagles were found dead within one kilometre of each other and it is believed they died after eating an animal carcass laced with the banned pesticide and poison carbofuran

... can anybody tell me why there are no searches of farms in the area, and if illegal poison/substances are found, followed up with hefty fines etc?

RonMexico

This is a disgrace but I fear that ignorance will win out unfortunately. I can't wait to raise this with any politician that dares to darken my door.