done deal, Greece gets a 110 billion euro bailout

ei.sdraob

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aE.Yt34w8ha4&pos=1

May 3 (Bloomberg) -- Euro-region ministers agreed to a 110 billion-euro ($146 billion) rescue package for Greece to prevent a default and stop the worst crisis in the currency’s 11-year history from spreading through the rest of the bloc.

The first payment will be made before Greece’s next bond redemption on May 19, said Jean-Claude Juncker after chairing a meeting of euro-region finance ministers in Brussels yesterday. The 16-nation bloc will pay 80 billion euros at a rate of around 5 percent and the International Monetary Fund contributes the rest. Greece agreed to budget measures worth 13 percent of gross domestic product.

seems its all done and signed now

110 billion euro :eek:


1.3 billion from Ireland > http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/taxpayers-will-borrow-836413bn-to-aid-greece-2162404.html


thats €684 euro per each and every for every employed person in the country
or over a grand per "taxpayer" (considering half of the employed are out of the taxnet)


Now the question is:

* will we ever get this money back?

and more importantly will the Greeks cut back enough and not endup in the same situation few years down the road?

Eliot Rosewater

Interesting blog post on the Irish Liberty Forum explaining the issue.

Recently, Anita Acavalos has explained that Greek culture has an embedded attitude that sees nothing fundamentally immoral (or economically suspect) at expropriating the wealth of others to fund spending programs for other citizens. Seeking recourse against these productive elements of society is a popular view to have, as “the rich … are commonly perceived to be everything that is wrong with Greek society.” Perhaps such attitudes among the masses have something to do with the culture of strong tax evasion which has developed.

According to The Week in Politics last night, government spending in Greece accounts for 50% of GDP. To be frank, I am amazed and shocked at the attitude of the Greeks. They have living beyond their means for many years, and now when it comes to paying for that they're looking to blame everyone else but themselves. Some seem to feel "entitled" to this bailout, as if the German people have a responsibility to give them money for nothing. I hope the measures are tough: the Greeks need a serious wake-up call.

mike65

The deal means those who lend will be due a return on investment over 3 years I think. We are paying about 3% for money they will pay back at 5% or something crazy

ei.sdraob

Yeh i have a feeling we will back to same situation again

I wonder how our resident public sector workers and union reps feel about this

Salaries and pensions in the Greek public sector will be frozen during the three-year programme and a fund backed by the IMF and the EU is to be set up to help Greek banks.

VAT will rise from 21 per cent to 23 per cent, and duties on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol will rise by 10 per cent. Early retirement will also be curtailed.

ei.sdraob

mike65 wrote: »

The deal means those who lend will be due a return on investment over 3 years I think. We are paying about 3% for money they will pay back at 5% or something crazy

No wrong

We will have to borrow at 5%

and get it back at ~5%

thats one **** investment


now Germany on the other hand is @ 3% ....

zod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7bfViYc0J0

not happy campers

Nody

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I wonder how our resident public sector workers and union reps feel about this

You missed the big part; removal of bonuses (13th and 14th salary) which means ~14% cut. They also upped the age for retirement from 53 to 65 (not joking on that one, how they think a system where your 3 best years of work sets your pension and at mid 50s is beyond me) and they still need to find several billions worth of cuts (beyond the things already announced) this and next year which means most likely more people leaving PS in Greece.

In short their recession will get even worse but the scariest part is that the people on the street talk about "how the banks and the rich caused it and should pay it" etc. Now where did I hear that one before...

Oh and if you want to worry don't worry so much about this government; worry about the next conservative one (you know the once who cooked the books in the first place and over spent worse then FF) who're likely to come back next election on a paroll of defaulting on the repayments of the loans.

Nody

ei.sdraob wrote: »

now Germany on the other hand is @ 3% ....

With a likely hair cut of 30% (i.e. all loans written down by 30% of their original value) it is still not going to make any German happy...

Scarab80

Nody wrote: »

With a likely hair cut of 30% (i.e. all loans written down by 30% of their original value) it is still not going to make any German happy...

Where have you got that figure from?

DidierMc

I call on the Greek proletariet to take up arms and overthrow the capitalist system

Amhran Nua

Its crazy whats going on there really, I mean its turning into a rock and hard place situation. From what I can glean from various news reports, the government does grasp the extent of the difficulties Greece faces, and is willing to implement the needed reforms.

Set against this you have the average punter in the streets, who seem to be completely disconnected from reality, and are willing to riot and burn the country to the ground in order to continue living an unsustainable lifestyle, egged on by what appears to be various far left factions, including anarcho-syndicalists, riding the backs of the trade unions.

Worst case scenario, the Greek government will be unable to contain the factions and there is the possiblity of outright revolution, leading to Greek default and possible expulsion from the EU, even though no mechanism to do this exists at the moment. At which point the new leaders of the country will swiftly discover that you can't run a country without money, and its anyone's guess what happens after that.

I sincerely hope cooler heads prevail and the Greek people recognise what their government has already grasped. Either way the contagion element has the potential to put us in a very bad spot.

DidierMc

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its crazy whats going on there really, I mean its turning into a rock and hard place situation. From what I can glean from various news reports, the government does grasp the extent of the difficulties Greece faces, and is willing to implement the needed reforms.

Set against this you have the average punter in the streets, who seem to be completely disconnected from reality, and are willing to riot and burn the country to the ground in order to continue living an unsustainable lifestyle, egged on by what appears to be various far left factions, including anarcho-syndicalists, riding the backs of the trade unions.

Worst case scenario, the Greek government will be unable to contain the factions and there is the possiblity of outright revolution, leading to Greek default and possible expulsion from the EU, even though no mechanism to do this exists at the moment. At which point the new leaders of the country will swiftly discover that you can't run a country without money, and its anyone's guess what happens after that.

I sincerely hope cooler heads prevail and the Greek people recognise what their government has already grasped. Either way the contagion element has the potential to put us in a very bad spot.

You display the typical Irish mentality of being happy to take it up the rear from the establishment.

Amhran Nua

DidierMc wrote: »

You display the typical Irish mentality of being happy to take it up the rear from the establishment.

You've managed to pick one of the few posters on boards who can verifiably say that's not the case, well done comrade. :rolleyes:

DidierMc

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You've managed to pick one of the few posters on boards who can verifiably say that's not the case, well done comrade. :rolleyes:

No i don't think I have. You are making all the slavish arguments in favour of capitalists, bondholders and bankers. You want to destroy living standards just to preserve the status quo.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

No i don't think I have. You are making all the slavish arguments in favour of capitalists, bondholders and bankers. You want to destroy living standards just to preserve the status quo.

erm his argument is for some common sense,

people with money (capitalists, bondholders and bankers) are avoiding Greece
this money in question is coming from people of other countries precisely because no one sane wants to touch them with a stick
is this what the socialists mean by "redistribution of wealth" :rolleyes:

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

erm his argument is for some common sense,

people with money (capitalists, bondholders and bankers) are avoiding Greece
this money in question is coming from people of other countries precisely because no one sane wants to touch them with a stick
is this what the socialists mean by "redistribution of wealth" :rolleyes:

His argument is typical of a standardised neo-liberal economist (who get everything wrong by the way)

It's not my fault that capitalism in Greece has been a massive failure. I argue for a completely different economic system. It's you who wants the status quo.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

His argument is typical of a standardised neo-liberal economist (who get everything wrong by the way)

It's not my fault that capitalism in Greece has been a massive failure. I argue for a completely different economic system. It's you who wants the status quo.

* they didnt commit fraud in order to enter the euro

* it wasnt a string of successive left wing governments that piled on 300billion worth of debt

real doublethink there :rolleyes:


anyways what "completely different economic system" exactly are you arguing for? please spell out the details for us... this should be amusing...

I sincerely hope that we, as a country, can learn a valuable lesson not just from the Greeks but also from the Germans both in terms of work ethic and to reevaluate our sense of 'entitlement' that is all pervasive in every aspect of Irish life.

Sadly I fear that our culture of "me me me gimme gimme" etc shall prevail.

Eliot Rosewater

Has (dare I say it) Margret Thatcher's quote been ever more fitting: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"?


By the way, I join with DidierMc in calling for the Greek proletariat to "overthrow the establishment". I give them 10 years before they come crawling back to the EU. At the very least it would set this socialistic myth of a potential paradise to rest.

Amhran Nua

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

and to reevaluate our sense of 'entitlement' that is all pervasive in every aspect of Irish life.

Plenty of Irish people work very hard, in fairness. I'd say the culture of entitlement is by far representative of the minority.

ei.sdraob

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Plenty of Irish people work very hard, in fairness. I'd say the culture of entitlement is by far representative of the minority.

A loud minority so

thebman

ei.sdraob wrote: »

A loud minority so

Yes but they have lobby groups. Something the actual middle class don't have.

SkepticOne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

No wrong

We will have to borrow at 5%

and get it back at ~5%

You think we're going to get it back?

danbohan

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Plenty of Irish people work very hard, in fairness. I'd say the culture of entitlement is by far representative of the minority

the culture of entitlement certainly seems pretty prevalent in our public service

thebman

danbohan wrote: »

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Plenty of Irish people work very hard, in fairness. I'd say the culture of entitlement is by far representative of the minority

the culture of entitlement certainly seems pretty prevalent in our public service

Not all of them and the public sector is a minority in the country anyway just like those on social welfare. The majority of people work in the private sector.

rightwingdub

The socialist were in power in Greece from 1993 till 2004 they were the government that cooked the books so that Greece could enter the Euro, then a centrist government led by New Democracy came to power till September 2009, corruption is absolutely epidemic in all the political parties in Greece, i'm sure even the communists have had a couple of corrupt politicians. Actually it was the centrist government in 2004 that to some extent revealed that the socialist government had been coooking the books but they also turned a blind eye to the rampant corruption that exists in Greece.

ei.sdraob

SkepticOne wrote: »

You think we're going to get it back?

nope

danbohan

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I sincerely hope that we, as a country, can learn a valuable lesson not just from the Greeks but also from the Germans both in terms of work ethic and to reevaluate our sense of 'entitlement' that is all pervasive in every aspect of Irish life.

Sadly I fear that our culture of "me me me gimme gimme" etc shall prevail.

our me me me , gimmee gimee shal prevail until pot boils dry , which is very very near ,and i cant see Germans etc been very happy to have to bail us out after already bailing out Greece , and prob Portugal at that stage they will have bail out fatigue

sirromo

Why do people keep talking about the Germans bailing out the Greeks?

Is the German taxpayer's contribution to the Greek bailout significantly greater than the Irish taxpayer's contribution?

murphaph

sirromo wrote: »

Why do people keep talking about the Germans bailing out the Greeks?

Is the German taxpayer's contribution to the Greek bailout significantly greater than the Irish taxpayer's contribution?

Yes.

sirromo

murphaph wrote:

Yes.

Do you know by how much?

The figure for German's contribution to the bailout that I've seen (here) is around 25 billion. I don't know what proportion of Germany's population is made up of taxpayers and how it compares with Ireland's, but on a per capita basis, dividing the contribution by the population, Germany's per capita contribution to the Greek bailout is around 305 euros per person while Ireland's is around 291 euros per person. You could hardly call that a significant difference.

The claim that the Germans are shouldering the burden for the bailout does not seem to be entirely accurate.

murphaph

sirromo wrote: »

Do you know by how much?

The figure for German's contribution to the bailout that I've seen (here) is around 25 billion. I don't know what proportion of Germany's population is made up of taxpayers and how it compares with Ireland's, but on a per capita basis, dividing the contribution by the population, Germany's per capita contribution to the Greek bailout is around 305 euros per person while Ireland's is around 291 euros per person. You could hardly call that a significant difference.

The claim that the Germans are shouldering the burden for the bailout does not seem to be entirely accurate.

I misunderstood your original question, sorry. I thought you meant Germany and not the individual taxpayers. Your question is rather interesting actually, I wonder what the breakdown is per taxpayer per country. I suppose of course that if Germany didn't put up the big bucks that our contribution would not add up to much.

Pot Noodle =

Can we not send some of our civil servant over there
Workers thousands of communists, civil servants and private-sector workers converged on a main square in Athens

Thousands?

Wow.

That’s a lot.

Any of them those members of Parliament who ...:

1) don’t pay taxes for LIFE , while others pay them;

2) get immunity for ANY crime that they commit, forever???

3) retire at 53, get pensions till they’re 100 ???

4) get paid 14 months for 12 months work minus 2 months vacation and never provide receipts for anything since everyone in the whole country refuses to pay taxes but loves to collect “benefits and rights”

Welfare is now a “right”

DidierMc

rightwingdub wrote: »

The socialist were in power in Greece from 1993 till 2004 they were the government that cooked the books so that Greece could enter the Euro, then a centrist government led by New Democracy came to power till September 2009, corruption is absolutely epidemic in all the political parties in Greece, i'm sure even the communists have had a couple of corrupt politicians. Actually it was the centrist government in 2004 that to some extent revealed that the socialist government had been coooking the books but they also turned a blind eye to the rampant corruption that exists in Greece.

Remember that the "socialist" party in Greece are about as left wing as Labour in Ireland. Both are pro-capitalist, pro-EU organisations.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

Remember that the "socialist" party in Greece are about as left wing as Labour in Ireland. Both are pro-capitalist, pro-EU organisations.

I see, they weren't "socialist" enough :P

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I see, they weren't "socialist" enough :P

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea isn't democratic enough.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea isn't democratic enough.

omg :pac:

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

omg :pac:

PMSL OMG LOL ROFL

pwd

thebman wrote: »

Yes but they have lobby groups. Something the actual middle class don't have.

You seem to be saying that middle-class people are all hard-working and not interested in their monetary entitlements.
You don't spell out what the lobby groups are that you refer to. I'm guessing you mean unions?
Plenty of middle-class people work hard. Plenty of middle-class people are lazy freeloaders. From what I've seen, it's far easier to get away with being a lazy freeloader in a white-collar job than a blue-collar one, because the level of supervision tends to be a lot less. The laziest feckers I've seen have been in very comfortable positions anyway. It's just because lazy people in lower-level jobs tend to get more pressure from their bosses and often their colleagues to do more work.
Also a lot of upper-middle class people in particular will know exactly what money is available to them from entitlements, and how to get it. Especially business-owners tbh.

SeanW

Yez Komrade DidierMc :P the Greeks should continue with its crazy levels of spending, paying all and sundry with, err rainbows and sunflowers? Cause they sure haven't got any actual money.

Remember that we've tried your version of left wingishness, actually most of Eastern Europe did (among others) and I seem to recall they sent us a postcard saying "Hi guys, it didn't work. Wish we were there"

DidierMc

SeanW wrote: »

Yez Komrade DidierMc :P the Greeks should continue with its crazy levels of spending, paying all and sundry with, err rainbows and sunflowers? Cause they sure haven't got any actual money.

Remember that we've tried your version of left wingishness, actually most of Eastern Europe did (among others) and I seem to recall they sent us a postcard saying "Hi guys, it didn't work. Wish we were there"

Yep I know, anyone who doesn't support the IMF and the international bondholders is a stalinist and should move to north korea. I've heard it all before. Sure even Bertie told people to commit suicide if they didn't support neo-liberalism.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

Yep I know, anyone who doesn't support the IMF and the international bondholders is a stalinist and should move to north korea. I've heard it all before. Sure even Bertie told people to commit suicide if they didn't support neo-liberalism.

I asked you before to outline your vision for how economies should work

you avoided the question

and yes once you go down the socialist route, more often than not as per numerous historical examples it ends badly

you try to blame everyone but the Greeks for the mess they got into, which is amusing

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I asked you before to outline your vision for how economies should work

you avoided the question

and yes once you go down the socialist route, more often than not as per numerous historical examples it ends badly

you try to blame everyone but the Greeks for the mess they got into, which is amusing

You can shoot every Greek politician and banker for all I care.

And yes I believe in planned economics as opposed to the chaos of the "free" market.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

You can shoot every Greek politician and banker for all I care.

And yes I believe in planned economics as opposed to the chaos of the "free" market.

Well there you go

deny it or not but you my friend are a "stalinist" :P

zootroid

DidierMc wrote: »

You can shoot every Greek politician and banker for all I care.

And yes I believe in planned economics as opposed to the chaos of the "free" market.

Can I ask why you prefer this type of economy? Because I cannot think of one example where it has worked.

The free market on the other hand has improved living standards for an enormous amount of people all over the world

Idbatterim

From RTE.ie

Meanwhile, Austrian Finance Minister Josef Proell said Europe is losing patience with Greece over the issue.

'Regarding the protests in Greece, I, along with the rest of Europe, am near the end of my tether,' Mr Proell said late yesterday after the eurozone endorsed a huge rescue package to pull Athens out of a debt crisis.

I have had it with those dilusional Greek! Their unions and Goverment seem to be alot worse than over here and thats saying someting! Kick them out of the eurozone TBH! ! Their Ps entitlements make it look like the Irish Ps are being shafted! And we all know how out of touch our PS is! This has to be a joke or a dream!?!

Fat_Fingers

That is the problem with Euro project. All the basket case countries of the eastern Europe and Mediterranean got into the euro and for the brief period of time it all looked well. Now its falling apart and at what cost.

DidierMc

zootroid wrote: »

Can I ask why you prefer this type of economy? Because I cannot think of one example where it has worked.

The free market on the other hand has improved living standards for an enormous amount of people all over the world

I would say it's improved living standards everywhere they've been implemented. Can't say the same for the free market however.

DidierMc

Idbatterim wrote: »

From RTE.ie

Meanwhile, Austrian Finance Minister Josef Proell said Europe is losing patience with Greece over the issue.

'Regarding the protests in Greece, I, along with the rest of Europe, am near the end of my tether,' Mr Proell said late yesterday after the eurozone endorsed a huge rescue package to pull Athens out of a debt crisis.

I have had it with those dilusional Greek! Their unions and Goverment seem to be alot worse than over here and thats saying someting! Kick them out of the eurozone TBH! ! Their Ps entitlements make it look like the Irish Ps are being shafted! And we all know how out of touch our PS is! This has to be a joke or a dream!?!

Who would have thought an Austrian could get so pissed off with trade unions and strikers?

zootroid

DidierMc wrote: »

I would say it's improved living standards everywhere they've been implemented. Can't say the same for the free market however.

I'd imagine the people in North Korea would beg to differ with you.

DidierMc

zootroid wrote: »

I'd imagine the people in North Korea would beg to differ with you.

I don't think anyone advocates the Juche model