Archaeology as a career

Beeker

Hi all looking for some advice please. I have a 14 year old daughter who has started to show some interest in archaeology. She has always been interested in history and now is talking about archaeology as a possible career.
Any advice would be welcome here. What should she be doing now. Subjects at school? What collages or universities run courses? Are there any digs that allow teenagers to watch or take part?
Really any help at all would be great.

Thanks in advance.

wolfpawnat

Hello Beaker,

Sadly Archaeology is a career very closely related to the building industry. Most sites are only ever discovered as a result of the builiding of roads and large housing estates, though there is always some tiny site being discovered.

Sadly there is ALOT of qualified Archaeologists sitting in dole queues or behind the counter is Supermacs at the moment. Out of all the Archaeologists I know/worked with, only 1 or 2 are actually employed at the moment. And for the work expected of you and the hours put in the pay even during the boom was terrible (due to cheap labour from abroad) Most weeks I brought hone €325 for a 5 day 8am to 5pm shift and most of the work is hard manual labour, wheelbarrows of shovelling and often just cutting sods, moving them, hoeing and removing tree roots were all you did for a day.

However I did quite like it regardless as I love the outdoors and I was never one to shy away from manual labour! And by the time your daughter is out of school perhaps there will be more work then, for that then an Arts degree is what she needs, History, Celtic Civ (even though it is now thought we are not a celtic nation) and Archaeology are a few she would need to consider and obviously Arch is something she would have to do as her degree. She just needs a good enough leaving and an interest really. Unless she wants to do a post grad in a specific subject such as Osteology she does not need to do any particular subjects. History is not even essential as most of what you cover in Leaving cert history is post 1850 and most archaeology is pre 1500!

Hope this helps.

Natalie

Beeker

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Hello Beaker,

Sadly Archaeology is a career very closely related to the building industry. Most sites are only ever discovered as a result of the builiding of roads and large housing estates, though there is always some tiny site being discovered.

Sadly there is ALOT of qualified Archaeologists sitting in dole queues or behind the counter is Supermacs at the moment. Out of all the Archaeologists I know/worked with, only 1 or 2 are actually employed at the moment. And for the work expected of you and the hours put in the pay even during the boom was terrible (due to cheap labour from abroad) Most weeks I brought hone €325 for a 5 day 8am to 5pm shift and most of the work is hard manual labour, wheelbarrows of shovelling and often just cutting sods, moving them, hoeing and removing tree roots were all you did for a day.

However I did quite like it regardless as I love the outdoors and I was never one to shy away from manual labour! And by the time your daughter is out of school perhaps there will be more work then, for that then an Arts degree is what she needs, History, Celtic Civ (even though it is now thought we are not a celtic nation) and Archaeology are a few she would need to consider and obviously Arch is something she would have to do as her degree. She just needs a good enough leaving and an interest really. Unless she wants to do a post grad in a specific subject such as Osteology she does not need to do any particular subjects. History is not even essential as most of what you cover in Leaving cert history is post 1850 and most archaeology is pre 1500!

Hope this helps.

Natalie

Hi Natalie, your comments will give her something to think about. Thanks for your help.

Tom

mdebets

Some good advice there from wolfpawnat, but I think the advice is a little bit too focused for the agegroup.

There is more to archaeology than just Irish Archaeology. So she should definitely have a look around all history courses (Irish, European, Classical, American,...) in her schools, to see which period she likes and which ones she don't. Even if history is not required and she doesn't cover the periods she want's to study later, it will give her a good grounding in the way history related subjects work.

She should also look around in seaminly unrelated fields, like Computer Science or Biology, if she finds something there, which might be combinable with Archaeology (there are still too little Archaeologists out there who can work properly with computers).

ALso a second, or even third language might be helpfull, especially if she wants to go to more European stuff later on.

Fro a practical side, the Archaeology Department in UCD runs a Transition Year Program (see here) and the School of Classics had some lectures in the past, targeted at schools, but I don't know if this is still going on.
The National Museum has also some program for schools (here)

Beeker

mdebets wrote: »

Some good advice there from wolfpawnat, but I think the advice is a little bit too focused for the agegroup.

There is more to archaeology than just Irish Archaeology. So she should definitely have a look around all history courses (Irish, European, Classical, American,...) in her schools, to see which period she likes and which ones she don't. Even if history is not required and she doesn't cover the periods she want's to study later, it will give her a good grounding in the way history related subjects work.

She should also look around in seaminly unrelated fields, like Computer Science or Biology, if she finds something there, which might be combinable with Archaeology (there are still too little Archaeologists out there who can work properly with computers).

ALso a second, or even third language might be helpfull, especially if she wants to go to more European stuff later on.

Fro a practical side, the Archaeology Department in UCD runs a Transition Year Program (see here) and the School of Classics had some lectures in the past, targeted at schools, but I don't know if this is still going on.
The National Museum has also some program for schools (here)

Good stuff! Thanks for that.:)

ignatius xavier pants

im an archaelogist with 10 years experience in the commercial sector including project management on major infrastructural schemes. i am currently unemployed and would not advise archaeology as a career to anyone.

pay and conditions are appalling and getting worse as staff wages are the first cut to make in any cost cutting exercise. the majority of site staff are employed on a project basis so there is very little by way of real permanent jobs. even in the public sector a large proportion of archaeologists are employed as temporary staff, pay and conditions are usually better in the public sector tho. archaeologists work in all weather, last winter during the wettest and coldest winter in 30 years archaeologists worked thru the rain and snow with wholly inadequate facilities (warm areas to shelter, toilets, access to clean water etc etc).

if your daughter is seriously interested in going this route i would advise taking geography and archaeology at third level and specialising in Geographic Information Systems (GIS) which will be a major advantage to her if she decides to go down the archaeology route but will also allow her to move into other (more lucrative) fields.

robp

ignatius xavier pants wrote: »

im an archaelogist with 10 years experience in the commercial sector including project management on major infrastructural schemes. i am currently unemployed and would not advise archaeology as a career to anyone.

pay and conditions are appalling and getting worse as staff wages are the first cut to make in any cost cutting exercise. the majority of site staff are employed on a project basis so there is very little by way of real permanent jobs. even in the public sector a large proportion of archaeologists are employed as temporary staff, pay and conditions are usually better in the public sector tho. archaeologists work in all weather, last winter during the wettest and coldest winter in 30 years archaeologists worked thru the rain and snow with wholly inadequate facilities (warm areas to shelter, toilets, access to clean water etc etc).

if your daughter is seriously interested in going this route i would advise taking geography and archaeology at third level and specialising in Geographic Information Systems (GIS) which will be a major advantage to her if she decides to go down the archaeology route but will also allow her to move into other (more lucrative) fields.

Slightly off topic question. In your experience does this relate to just field archaeologists? Are specialists as badly affected? I have heard rumours that environmental sampling on excavations etc just isn't been conducted at the moment or at least on scale seen previously.

Riamfada

robp wrote: »

Are specialists as badly affected? I have heard rumours that environmental sampling on excavations etc just isn't been conducted at the moment or at least on scale seen previously.

The last site I was one we were told not to bother with environmental sampling of pit fills.

ignatius xavier pants

robp wrote: »

Slightly off topic question. In your experience does this relate to just field archaeologists? Are specialists as badly affected? I have heard rumours that environmental sampling on excavations etc just isn't been conducted at the moment or at least on scale seen previously.

innapropriate sampling and over sampling was a problem on excavations in any case which led to problems in the post excavation phases of projects. so more considered sampling (as opposed to under sampling or not sampling) is, imo, not a bad thing. During those crazy boomy days staff were often not adequately trained in appropiate sampling methodologies leading to large scale collection of material of limited value. specialists have also been badly affected, less work all round basically, their major problem at the moment seems to be getting money out companies that are under severe financial stress.

Aelfric

In response to everyone, there really isn't a great deal of work for anyone at the moment, specialists included. Having a specialism is (was) seen as a way to ensure that your employment prospects went beyond simply doing fieldwork, but then I know quite a few 'diggers' who had a specialism and rarely if ever got a chance to use it.

You think you're badly off after 10 years? I'm an 18 year veteran, licence-eligible in both Irish jurisdictions, and I've been on the dole for 2 years. Not exactly what I'd planned for all those years ago when I started out. Ho hum. Thank the Gods for college though! I'm getting funded to upskill/retrain.

Archaeology will come back to Ireland, but it will take a few years to see the availability of work return to anywhere near the levels we saw 3 years ago. The real danger is, of course, that when it does return, the skilled archaeologists that we had will either have emigrated, or gone into alternative careers.

So Beeker, do encourage your daughter to study Archaeology, preferably in Cork, Belfast, Leicester or Glasgow (not necessarily in that order), because there will be work for her once she's graduated.

There currently isn't a Young Archaeologists Club in Ireland, although there are musings towards such a thing. Volunteers generally aren't encouraged on excavations due to Health & Safety and Insurance issues, which often explicitly preclude under-18s. Get the Time Team videos, or watch it live. Join the Time Team Club or the YAC at http://www.britarch.ac.uk/yac/ The Council for British Archaeology website (www.britarch.ac.uk) also has some good information on education and study options, biased to UK learning though.

Hope this helps

Marchandire

Aelfric wrote: »

You think you're badly off after 10 years? I'm an 18 year veteran, licence-eligible in both Irish jurisdictions, and I've been on the dole for 2 years.

Holy god, that sucks :eek:

I have five years behind me, never rose above site assistant and have been out of archaeology a similar amount of time. I guess this recession has no respect for anyone.

In answer to the OP, I'd push your daughter to take a second honours in something useful when in college - commerce, economics, IT, etc. Archaeology as she probably imagines it (excavating sites, digging skeletons and so on) hasn't paid a living wage in at least ten years, and there are a limited number of supervisory/specialist positions where you can make a decent living.

Her safest option is to dig for a year or two and then move onto a job with realistic prospects. This is what the vast majority of staff do at present. A decent joint honours in a second subject will make things a lot safer for her in the job market (and probably let you rest a bit easier too). It's a shameful situation tbh, but the Celtic Tiger was not kind to field archaeology as a career.

On another note, Aelfric mentioned Leicester as a possible college option above. I did a two-year part-time MA with Leicester University when I was digging, and found it a superb option. They do BA, MA and PHD courses, are very experienced in distance learning and tend toward the practical side of the discipline. It's valid option for anyone to consider, and I can't recommend it highly enough. Hope this helps.

Beeker

Thanks everyone for your posts. It has given her a lot to think about:eek:
Sorry to see so many of you out of work after spending so long at collage pursuing such an interesting career.
Lets look forward to better times:)

Again many thanks for your help on this.

Tom

dr gonzo

Im studying archaeology at the moment and this thread has just scared the absolute sh1te out of me. If a person with 18 years experience cant get a job then a newbie like myself is certainly screwed.

Clementine

Dr Gonzo- Out of interest, are your lecturers keeping you informed on the current state of the Irish archaeology industry?

I know when I did my degree and Masters were constantly kept informed and up to date (even had a few lectures in what will go/went wrong).

dr gonzo

Clementine wrote: »

Dr Gonzo- Out of interest, are your lecturers keeping you informed on the current state of the Irish archaeology industry?

Not especially no. There was a semi serious warning once at a meeting discussing what format you wanted to continue doing arch in(Single major, major/minor etc), there was hardly anyone at that meeting and it was said in such a way that what i took away from it was that arch is definitely low now but give it a few years (i.e when im finished) it will very likely be a lot better.

Im not saying, of course, that my lecturers are trying to mislead us or anything i just was not fully aware of the extent to which the profession has been hit. I was ready for some amount of difficulty but the idea that i might not have any job prospects at all is very scary.

Riamfada

dr gonzo wrote: »

I was ready for some amount of difficulty but the idea that i might not have any job prospects at all is very scary.

Try getting a degree and a masters and knowing your never going to use your qualifications.

4 years = flush

dr gonzo

Grimes wrote: »

Try getting a degree and a masters and knowing your never going to use your qualifications.

4 years = flush

Well ill be going the exact same route. Ill just have to take things as they come.

pog it

In fairness, I can say that I was warned.

My parents tried to get me to steer clear, and lecturers told our class (in final year!!) that we can expect the same pay as staff working in Tesco, but I guess I had to get it out of my system.

It's a great hobby, but seriously, don't let your daughter depend on it for a living. It is immense craic, you will be working in a predominantly young team, you get to travel Ireland - a lot!- and work abroad if you want, but the conditions and pay are really grim.
Also, it is interesting work of course, but on site there are many many days of boredom archaeology-wise. Some sites can amount to trowelling with no gain for days and days, and then there are the days or weeks spent digging out a ditch in the hope of some charcoal...... that's the reality of the work on the site. Not to mention the weather- and I am an outdoors person.

It's nice to see a site come together over say 6 months, and it can be seriously good fun for a few years, but it's not a career that makes it easy to raise a family alongside either, and this affects women more than men. If you aren't in Dublin, you can expect to move around a whole province at best if you can find the work. Some people I know had to move to UK for work.

I don't regret the 3 years I spent doing it, but at the same time I would honestly advise that it's kept as a full time hobby or else have a back up career plan. Nothing is guaranteed jobs wise for when your daughter would graduate.

Smartypantsdig

I suppose I was lucky in that I got a number of good years digging. I am sharing a place with two lads who worked for a year and three years on and off tops, in the field. Both have MAs. One is working in a bank now and the other is lucky enough to be on post-ex work in a company in Meath and a few hours a week in UCD doing environmental stuff in the Department.

I do believe though, that there will be work in the future. Not as much but there are still a few major infrastructural projects to be completed. The Metro is one. The competition will be intense for employment but those with a proven record should not find this a problem.

shellykbookey

wolfpawnat wrote: »

then an Arts degree is what she needs, History, Celtic Civ (even though it is now thought we are not a celtic nation) and Archaeology are a few she would need to consider and obviously Arch is something she would have to do as her degree.

There's also the applied archaeology course in IT Sligo which actually shows you how to dig and covers most variations of the subject as opposed to discussing your lecturers books, just a thought...

[/QUOTE]She just needs a good enough leaving and an interest really. Unless she wants to do a post grad in a specific subject such as Osteology she does not need to do any particular subjects. History is not even essential as most of what you cover in Leaving cert history is post 1850 and most archaeology is pre 1500![/QUOTE]

I have to agree on the history front I did history for the leaving cert and as far as I'm concerned it was a waist of a subject. Geography is a lot more useful for understanding soils, how sites form, etc. She will have to get a safe pass before going on site so in leaving cert she should see if the school pays some of the cost, there should be a few people going for it for other jobs too. Hopefully by the time she's out of college there will be more jobs

Best of luck

thebadmonkey

Had considered studying archaeology when I left school about ten/eleven years ago but was advised not to as there would be no work. I ended up in accountancy and had lately been lamenting my career choice but it looks like career-wise based on what I've read above that it may have been the right choice.

Is there any way of getting involved in Archaeology part time or any part time/distance learning courses worth doing? Not to further or change career but for my own pleasure?

uncle ernie

heres a few off the top of my head

the first 2 are scandinavian universities that do distance learning courses in english, and are completely free (may be a small student fee of €20 or so)

http://www.umu.se/english/education/courses-and-programmes/course?code=1HI049

http://www.hgo.se/utbud/hgo/en/HAR107/

also university of leicester distance learning courses

http://www.ceebd.co.uk/ceeed/un/uk/university_of_leicester_archaeology.htm

robp

It looks as if 2011 may not see any significant improvements in employment levels, at least based on current revisions in planned infrastructure.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/key-road-and-rail-projects-axed-as-money-runs-out-2247169.html

The NRA will begin just three projects next year, and all are in partnership with the private sector, with monies to be paid back over 30 years

The Government has almost halved funding for infrastructure between now and 2013, from €39.6bn to €22.9bn.

Another difficulty is the decrease in the actual tender prices for the contracts that are going ahead.

He added that tender prices are down 30pc,

Riamfada

Some people will say "ah sure it will pick up" and "it will never be as good as it was but" .......... its certainly not going to improve at all in the next three years at least.A case can be made that the millions that went into archaeological excavation without thought or sustainability was just another example of the Celtic Tiger excesses and greed.


Also, as a side note some companies out there are now paying exactly the minimum wage for a site assistant irregardless of skill or grade.

Wibbs

The first thing to go when people get cheap or panic is to sidetrack those who create or seek to record the culture. Typical. :rolleyes: The very thing that makes us a culture in the first place. A storyteller is worth a 1000 accountants and those who seek to reveal the stories are worth at least 100. Talk about lack of priorities. We need more trowelling in the freezing cold and rain experts not less, otherwise our understanding of our history and heritage will be pickled in aspic and rarely updated. TBH as an outsider reading this thread both got my blood up and my mood down.

chrissor

Reading all this is really starting to get me worried about archaeology as a real career. I'm going into my final year now studying Archaeology and Geology and I'm starting to regret not applying for a transfer into a Geology single major as the degree I'm doing wont be at all useful Geology wise, the love of Archaeology has kept me from changing.

Does anyone know what the conditions are like in continental Europe, I'm most likely going to move to Germany or France after I finish my degree for a completely unrelated reason and hopefully make some money as I cant actually afford to pursue a masters degree at the moment. Is the situation any better over there?

steddyeddy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Hello Beaker,

Sadly Archaeology is a career very closely related to the building industry. Most sites are only ever discovered as a result of the builiding of roads and large housing estates, though there is always some tiny site being discovered.

Sadly there is ALOT of qualified Archaeologists sitting in dole queues or behind the counter is Supermacs at the moment. Out of all the Archaeologists I know/worked with, only 1 or 2 are actually employed at the moment. And for the work expected of you and the hours put in the pay even during the boom was terrible (due to cheap labour from abroad) Most weeks I brought hone €325 for a 5 day 8am to 5pm shift and most of the work is hard manual labour, wheelbarrows of shovelling and often just cutting sods, moving them, hoeing and removing tree roots were all you did for a day.

However I did quite like it regardless as I love the outdoors and I was never one to shy away from manual labour! And by the time your daughter is out of school perhaps there will be more work then, for that then an Arts degree is what she needs, History, Celtic Civ (even though it is now thought we are not a celtic nation) and Archaeology are a few she would need to consider and obviously Arch is something she would have to do as her degree. She just needs a good enough leaving and an interest really. Unless she wants to do a post grad in a specific subject such as Osteology she does not need to do any particular subjects. History is not even essential as most of what you cover in Leaving cert history is post 1850 and most archaeology is pre 1500!

Hope this helps.

Natalie

Natalie im shocked at this Archaeology would be very important in ireland i imagine!

AudreyHepburn

Hi Beeker

I graduated in December last year with a MA in Archaeology and am unfortunatly currently unemployed. However as your daughter is only 14 she has a least 8 years(4 yrs secondary school, 3 to 4 in uni) to go before worrying about finding a job in the sector and I would think things will have improved by then.

I would recommend UCD for her as it offers a a great practical, as well as theoretical, course with plenty of oppertunity for field work which is essential. Most if not all the archaeologists I know have come through UCD and I have read and heard in many places that it is the place to go for a degree in Ireland. The staff I found friendly helpful and interested and they made a point of keeping us updated as to the status of Archaeology as a career.

I'd recommend your daughter begins by taking an Arts degree where she can do archaeology alongside other subjects so that she has something to fall back on and also has other subjects to persue if archaeology is not what she wants. Then if archaeology is what she really wants to persue she can do a Master's.

Hope this helps and support her if it's what she really wants. I know it might not seem like a wise choice but there is no point in her doing something she really doesn't enjoy just for the sake of having an easier time finding work. College is tough enough without forcing yourself to sit through four years of a subject you can't stand!

katkin

I too studied archaeology to MA level, and no work. Just wondering what do people think about studying Osteoarchaeology or some other specialism, do ye think this would be an area there might be work in with post-excavation work or research.

Riamfada

katkin wrote: »

I too studied archaeology to MA level, and no work. Just wondering what do people think about studying Osteoarchaeology or some other specialism, do ye think this would be an area there might be work in with post-excavation work or research.

I kind of looked at that myself and spoke to some directors. According to them site osteologists usually come from a medical background, a one year archaeology MA does not really qualify someone to examine bone to the extent of someone who has done years in medicine. A good friend of mine did his BA with me in archaeology then disapeared and did a medical masters ....

As for other specialities I know that across the board, less sites are being excavated, CRDS went out of business/into examinership last week for example. There is less demand for all types and skills in archaeology.

Research funding has been cut dramatically so I wouldn't bank on it as a career choice, I assume that there are already enough specialists out there at the moment trying to fill whatever work is coming in without putting more into the pot. Coupled with the fact that due to the tendering process sites are being dug as cost effective as possible. When site assistants are being paid 8.65 and hour I doubt that the successful tenders have budgeted for expensive specialist analysis.

Personally I would buck current predictions and say things will not get better to the extent that it will be a viable career choice.

Smartypantsdig

While I agree that the boom days are over, I still feel that there will be employment in the future for those who really love the job. I am still picking up work on small scale projects around the eastern part of the country; recording, surveying and testing etc. I am not earning as much as I did before, granted, but the fact that I have a proven record helps. The only way to gain a reputation in the field is by being willing to take the small crappy jobs but do them well.

I have a number of people that I know I can call on when work does come my way and I know that there are others out there who will call on me when they need a hand. There were very many "unqualified" diggers out there during the boom and they have mostly gone back to there real professions; I worked with teachers, bankers, architects etc. who just took advantage of career breaks in order to go digging. Many of these were ace archaeologists in the field but they were not interested in the longer game as regrards to post-ex work and the like. At the moment I am helping write up reports of excavations which were done 2-3 years ago. This process was factored into the original costings so has to be done. I am lucky to be able to take advantage of the fact that some of the original directors moved on, thus leaving the way open for me.

Never give up hope is what I suppose I am saying, in my roundabout rambling way!

ELLENoco

This last post has given me hope! Just finished a BA in archaeology and doing a masters in sep, was getting tired of hearing horror stories of there being no work whatsoever. Im up for doing all the pre-ex and post-ex work. I wish people would stop scaring me with negativity!!!!! :rolleyes:

Riamfada

ELLENoco wrote: »

I wish people would stop scaring me with negativity!!!!! :rolleyes:

Most people are just telling you how it is, Im sure Smartpantsdig will agree that he/she has been exceptionally lucky. We are all scared with realism not negativity.

ELLENoco

Ya I know how bad things are Im just trying not to think that all my work in college might be in vain.

Smartypantsdig

Grimes wrote: »

Most people are just telling you how it is, Im sure Smartpantsdig will agree that he/she has been exceptionally lucky. We are all scared with realism not negativity.

I haven't been "exceptionally lucky" at all. I know of a good few people in the profession who are still earning a crust. And as I stated above, I admit it is not as much as it was. I also know some recently qualified people who are picking up work for the simple reason that they approach companies and individuals asking for work. I was also told of exceptional students by lecturers and was asked to give them try-outs. It IS by word of mouth that an archaeologist gains a rep, not by how high a grade they got. And as I said, some of the best diggers I know had no background in aechaeology at all.

I would say yes, be scared but also hang on in there and actively seek contacts and jobs. I even go on research surveys and digs without pay by times, but it does earn you a lot of respect, which has paid dividend for me.

Nebit

Ok I would say just go out there remain positive and be friendly and you will find those who will help you out.

on a positive note to this thread, I've just managed to secure a 7 year job on a project after i graduate this year. Im only posting this here to add a positive light to those archaeologists out there.

ELLENoco

How true is it that knowing someone/friends with someone is really how you get work. Ive heard that now a few times......

Smartypantsdig

ELLENoco wrote: »

How true is it that knowing someone/friends with someone is really how you get work. Ive heard that now a few times......

You will, in most cases, be recommended on your record rather than on who you know, although that does happen :mad:... I was recommended a person for a dig once only to discover that this person was a complete eejit and a bad and disruptive influence. The kind who questions everything and thinks that their way of doing things is "the only way"... I for one would never do this to another director or company.

ELLENoco

Also, I was wondering from anyone thats been working in archaeology for a few years, how much time do you actually spend away from home, as in staying away?

2nd Row Donkey

Gob smacked after reading this thread.

Studied archarology in UCD about 10 years ago as part of an Arts course and had to leave college for other reasons after 1 year.

Always regreted leaving and as i sit here at my stupid office job listening to customers complain all day and night i often look out the window and think about what could have been...

In this case, what could have been is sod all!

Still, if I win the lotto some day, i might just get to live the dream eh?

RollYerOwn

There is little to be gained by speculating about whether things will pick up again or not. However, I'd like to hear from those people who think the profession is going to bounce back, why they think that might be the case. In my opinion the last 10 years of development boom was an exception - not a norm.

As a teenager I was put off archaeology by my history teacher. At university we were all warned that most of us would not find work in archaeology - or would leave it to do something else if we did find some work. It was not a lie, it was a reality of the 1990's.

However they were different times, and you might consider this... Very few people who used to study archaeology did so with the intention of finding a useful productive career at the end of it. They studied it because they were interested, and for some this became a passion. I suspect, however, that with the boom people have found it so much easier to move from job to job, and so it wasn't seen as a gamble but an easy choice at Uni followed by wage of some kind while you got old enough to think about longer term prospects.

Despite this, the archaeological profession has failed to take itself seriously and so has become just another sidelined profession around the periphery of other industries. As such Irish archaeologists can only manage at best to be reluctantly reactive in their approach to their own careers. Adversity comes in many guises.

If your daughter has a passion, and is prepared to dig her heels in to find a way to do whatever it is she wants to do in the face of adversity, then IMO don't put her off. If she has delusions that the job is anything but bloody hard thankless work with little reward other than your own interest in what you do, then perhaps reading some of these posts might alter that perception. It will never be well paid, and at the moment, where there IS any work, it's minimum wage at entry level (although people currently doing that job are overqualified and many years served). There's no decent survey been done recently that can count the numbers of (ex?)archaeologists out of work, but anecdotally there's been a cull of about up to about three-quarters - the highest count that was roughly estimated in 2007 was about 1700 or so people employed in archaeology in Ireland. Several of the bigger companies have folded.

It's not like there are other careers out there at the moment that people can say with any confidence that there will be an easy path into with rich rewards now.. Or are there? Besides, Irish degrees are mainly joint degrees are they not?

mymo

This thread has really got me worried, I have a 12 yr old who wants to study Archaeology(has done since about 7yrs old).
She has already told me she'll need to go to Belfast or Glasgow to study, she read up about courses herself, and decided what she wants to do.
She's really interested in the science side of it all(she did a forensics and zoology course through DCU), but is unsure about how to find out more about it (and so am I), so far any teachers she asked pretty much dismissed it as worthless or she's too young to be thinking about it.
Is it any different in the science(lab work etc) side or is all archaeology the same?

RollYerOwn

ELLENoco wrote: »

Also, I was wondering from anyone thats been working in archaeology for a few years, how much time do you actually spend away from home, as in staying away?

In answer to that, what do you mean home? Your own city? Your own home? Your parents home? If you are lucky enough to get a contract at the moment you are expected to travel to wherever the work is. That means if you come from Cork and are offered a job in Galway, you are going to have to move to where the job is.

Used to be that there was enough work on motorway schemes etc (which might provide you with a few months to up to a years work or even more in some cases) that it was worth moving away for. After that job another contract might come up in some other part of the country, perhaps with the same employer, perhaps not. You would move again, at your own expense and with no expenses - just your regular wage (construction sector workers for example got "country money" for working away from their "home"). As an archaeologist the term home doesn't mean what it means to normal people. It's one home after another.

However a good number of archaeologists in Dublin and Cork used to seem to be able to stay in their local area - but with so little work around these days, to stay "home" means now that you'd be taking jobs if you could get em, then going to work in something else if you could (dole if not).

In Britain, where wages were always lower than here (in relation to hte economies), I believe that working away from the companies' base meant that you would get an away expense, or accommodation provided - but then again it's a much bigger country. Despite this I think that if the work does pick up a bit, there will be fewer archaeologists around who would be prepared to move around (outside of the main urban centres), and companies might be forced to pay expenses to attract people. You're not left with much from a minimum wage paying two rents.

Hope that helps.

RollYerOwn

mymo wrote: »

Is it any different in the science(lab work etc) side or is all archaeology the same?

Most people working in archaeology have done so through the commercial sector, which has taken the toughest hit because of it's reliance on development. Specialists come in many forms, some from archaeology and some from other sciences. Many of these also rely on the results of developer lead archaeology for work.

I would put my money on doing a Science degree to specialise e.g. PhD in some of the new dating/environmental techniques, or some of the old! I think most people think that hedging your bets and developing a Science background is far more transferable than pure archaeology as such. I think doing geography is definitely worth considering as a related discipline. However, I believe there isn't really much in the way of funding for archaeological sciences - who would pay for it?

I'm not trying to put you (them) off, but if there is an interest in the science aspects of archaeology then there are probably other routes.

As a matter of interest, archaeology that people learn in the classroom is not the archaeology that is carried out in the field. To get anywhere in archaeology (let's just assume with wild abandon there is a career to progress in) you have to have learned the stuff they teach you in college, but the work of excavation is an art you can only learn by much and varied experience. Once you have finished college there is, as such, an apprenticeship-type period which can last as long as it needs be. Archaeologists therefore invest many years in their careers by the time they get to managing archaeological sites. And these days, it is only then that they begin to earn something approaching an average living wage.

cue

I just returned from an excavation in France. The majority of people who worked with me were students and we were there to gain experience in how to physically excavate a site. We were fed very well and stayed in tents and there was a lot of fun and socialising, but we were unpaid workers. It was my first excavation and I found aspects of the work very enjoyable (trowel work - yes, it's an art - and drawing) while others (sorting bones and flint and shells) nearly put me to sleep. I spoke to the established professionals on the dig (site directors, specialists in bone, and other sciences) and they had managed to stay on their career paths even though they did admit it was difficult at times, due to the reasons outlined by posters already, mainly financial. Some of them had families and partners that they had to leave behind every now and then (we were staying on an island away from the mainland) and this might be an issue if you are a homebird, or if you need a more regular home schedule, but even those with children were ok with it. A lot of the professionals spent most of their year doing more regular work e.g. museums, research etc, and they treated this as a working holiday out in the field, doing "real" archaeology, which is what they all loved. Many of them had to seek work in related fields early on e.g. tourism, in order to make ends meet, but they all had a determination that this was what they wanted to do so they stuck with it. One of them gave up a high flying career as a financial analyst to pursue it and he was very happy with his life as a result. I am only a first year student so I'm keeping an open mind about it as a career.

Nebit

ok this thread is a serious downer.
If you work hard and search for the work even if its sh*t pay at first you should be ok. As for forensic Archaeology, this is what i specialise in and at the moment i am working with a company next year to establish a European bone lab.
Things will improve but if your going to be down about it they never will for you.
Also i dont mean to sound condescending but your child is 12 years old, even at 15 and i was a very focused young lad i wanted to be a zoologist things changed by the time i went to college and i wanted to do genetics or archaeology.
In 6 or 7 years when your child is ready for university thats when you should ask said questions, things can change and who knows ireland may lead in forensic archaeology (doubtful) at that time.

RollYerOwn

That's right folks. Chins up and it'll all be grand.

Nebit wrote: »

If you work hard and search for the work even if its sh*t pay at first you should be ok. ... Things will improve but if your going to be down about it they never will for you.

No argument against being "down" about it - but I think there's a case for looking the devil in the eye and calling him horny.

So the 15% of unemployed people in Ireland just need to be optimistic and learn to work hard.

The 80% of (former?) archaeologists who were on sh*t pay for their entire careers to date and now can't find work - they just aren't looking hard enough? I think you might find that many of them have looked til their eyes have bled, and then have moved on to other things.

The archaeological consultancies that have gone under have done so because they didn't work hard enough or weren't optimistic enough?

I think there's an argument against the endless optimism that got this country in the state it's currently in, and for the touch of realism (or is it pessimism?) that you show when you state:

Nebit wrote: »

who knows ireland may lead in forensic archaeology (doubtful) at that time

No offence, I'm genuinely pleased for your successes - it sounds great and I wish you the best. I presume you have had to leave the country and go to the UK to study Forensic Archaeology but the European lab is something you are developing here? Sounds great.

Nebit

RollYerOwn wrote: »

That's right folks. Chins up and it'll all be grand.



No argument against being "down" about it - but I think there's a case for looking the devil in the eye and calling him horny.

So the 15% of unemployed people in Ireland just need to be optimistic and learn to work hard.

The 80% of (former?) archaeologists who were on sh*t pay for their entire careers to date and now can't find work - they just aren't looking hard enough? I think you might find that many of them have looked til their eyes have bled, and then have moved on to other things.

The archaeological consultancies that have gone under have done so because they didn't work hard enough or weren't optimistic enough?

I think there's an argument against the endless optimism that got this country in the state it's currently in, and for the touch of realism (or is it pessimism?) that you show when you state:



No offence, I'm genuinely pleased for your successes - it sounds great and I wish you the best. I presume you have had to leave the country and go to the UK to study Forensic Archaeology but the European lab is something you are developing here? Sounds great.

no i never went to the UK to study forensics, i remain in Dublin and went on several Voluntary workshops, excavations and labs to get to the situation im at, and yes im trying to get the company to place it in ireland due to the science related incentives here.
I know im extremly lucky to be in the position im in but i also know other graduate who are in the same position meaning works out there for SH*T pay.

Be bitter all you like. I wasnt saying stay optimistic and it'll all be super im sure people have been looking hard for work iv seen it everyday at my family home, im simply saying sitting moaning about it, and how you have to 'know certain people' to get on etc isnt helping anyone, actually its counterpreductive and putting people down.

RollYerOwn

Well no discredit to you whether you have been lucky or worked hard - fact is you've done something positive, so fair play.

However there are lots of people also trying to do positive things but yet might feel a little entitled to criticise the profession they have been part of and watched fall apart at the seams.

I truly haven't noticed much "moaning" in this thread - people gave their opinions as they were asked to. As for the "knowing someone helps you get a job" post by one of the posters.. It's true. That's life.

Riamfada

My new theory regarding the nature of postholes!

Riamfada

While spending some time googling "archaeology jobs ireland" and numerious variations thereof I came across an article dated to the middle of the good times relating to archaeology as a career. It can be found http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/archaeology-a-terrible-job-96697.html

Archaeology a terrible job

Monday May 08 2006

Regarding 'Dig This' by Caroline Allen (Irish Independent, April 20) as an archaeologist working in commercial archaeology, I feel qualified to criticise the content of the piece.
Ms Allen reports that archaeology is a lucrative and rewarding career choice but does not reflect the realities.

The majority of workers in archaeology today have degrees, or some kind of qualification in the subject.

As there are very few opportunities to gain any experience in museums, never mind finding paid employment in one, archaeology graduates go to work for the commercial companies.

The option of doing a specialist masters in archaeology is almost impossible in Ireland. Most universities in Ireland offer a basic landscape archaeology course or a M. litt, practically useless if one wants to work in the field or do scientific based studies.

This leaves the Irish archaeology graduate with no choice but to go abroad to get a postgraduate qualification.

The UK offers hundreds of specialist courses and this is where many of us end up. Your article tells us that the future of archaeology is in research but fails to mention that you will need an extra qualification if you wish to move beyond the position of lackey in your career. This further study will cost anything up to £12,000stg per year for a masters course. Most graduates cannot afford this and so end up with the commercial companies.

What one can expect from a commercial company is a complete lack of respect. Archaeologists are the lowest paid professionals in Ireland: fact. We have no trade union protection and anyone trying to organise people into a union will get their P45 in their next pay packet.

Our wages only go up if the minimum wage increases.

Wages do not go up with inflation. Most companies offer no contracts to their workers and when they do they are not worth the paper they are written on. An archaeologist can be sacked with no notice and if one tried to appeal this one would find that no other company will take them on. Archaeologists can more often than not find themselves working on a site where no sanitary facilities are provided, there is no cabin to eat lunch in and there is no where to shelter from the rain. These are conditions that are supposed to be accepted by us without question.

The article also gives the impression that as an archaeologist one can preserve and help to preserve history. Sadly, as I found out myself, archaeology in Ireland is not all Indiana Jones-style exploits but is in fact a harsh business. Archaeology is secondary to money-making for these companies and oftentimes the archaeology is not recorded properly. More information is being destroyed than is being recorded for good.

Archaeology is not for the idealist or history-lover and it is certainly not for anyone who wishes to reach pensionable age with savings in the bank, or anyone who thinks they are going to escape without arthritis or a back-injury. CORRESPONDENT'S NAME AND ADDRESS SUPPLIED


If thats what it was like in 2006 .......