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"A huge week in the history of industrial relations"

  • 03-05-2010 08:52AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭


    As the title says, it will be a huge week in the history of industrial relations as some trade unions start voting on the proposed public sector agreement, clarifications are obtained in relation to some aspects of the deal and IMPACT comes off the fence to decide which way to recommend to its members to vote.

    Given how close this vote will be it will be interesting to see will ICTU emerge still intact and united after the votes have all been counted, or will a disgruntled minority split away to pursue their own agenda.

    Personally I will be voting in favour of this agreement as a stepping stone towards having the paycuts reversed as "rejection would leave the government on the 'high moral ground' in that it would have offered the 'deal of the century' to public servants, who would now have only themselves to blame for rejecting it.

    This would allow finance minister Brian Lenihan to proceed with public backing to extract more pay cuts next December. Such a move would be a far easier way of achieving the required €3bn savings than lengthy union reforms which would probably never yield the same level of savings as a straight pay cut."


    On another note, while I do admire Joe Higgins for the work that he does, I can't help but notice that the Socialist Party are heavily involved in this debate and trying to influence the recommendations of Trade Union Executive Committees. Many Socialist Party members have positions in the Unions themselves, which must surely be regarded as a conflict of interest, given the potential political consequences should the proposed agreement be rejected?

    http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/may/02/government-and-unions-face-each-other-in-croke-par/
    Government and unions face each other in Croke Park crucial deciderThe public service deal, which will be voted on this week, is on a knife-edge, writes Martin Frawley

    It's set to be a huge week in the history of industrial relations in Ireland. Some time over the next few days, Kieran Mulvey, the facilitator of the Croke Park deal between unions and the government, and the chief executive of the Labour Relations Commission, will outline a clarification of what was agreed between both sides in March. Then on Wednesday, the powerful public service committee of Ictu will meet to decide whether to recommend the deal. Its decision could well determine whether the rest of the year will be relatively peaceful or pockmarked by serious industrial action.

    Last night, Siptu leader Jack O'Connor made an impassioned defence of the Croke Park pay deal, urging members to back the government's offer as the "only survival strategy" in the current climate.

    Speaking in Athy at a celebration for May Day, O'Connor said that public servants should not regard a vote in favour of the deal as backing the government. "The proposals guarantee jobs, preclude compulsory redundancies, minimise outsourcing, prevent further pay cuts and provide a framework for restoring lost pay over time," he said.

    O'Connor and other union leaders, who are backing the deal in the face of massive opposition from ordinary union members, will need Mulvey's clarification to be a convincing one.

    The Sunday Tribune understands that it will provide a bit more certainty on pay for the unions as well as some further detail on pensions, outsourcing and a revision of the teachers' contracts.

    But informed sources have pointed out that it is impossible to secure certainty in such uncertain times.

    It is understood there is a growing opinion within government that it would better suit its budgetary strategy if the deal was rejected. The belief is based on the fact that rejection would leave the government on the 'high moral ground' in that it would have offered the 'deal of the century' to public servants, who would now have only themselves to blame for rejecting it.

    This would allow finance minister Brian Lenihan to proceed with public backing to extract more pay cuts next December. Such a move would be a far easier way of achieving the required €3bn savings than lengthy union reforms which would probably never yield the same level of savings as a straight pay cut.

    It is understood this view has gained ground in cabinet over the last few weeks as ministers have come in for some strong personal and political attacks at trade union conferences. New education minister and Tánaiste Mary Coughlan was on the sharp end of some heckling at the teachers conferences last month.

    Also, justice minister Dermot Ahern was the subject of a barrage of personal and political abuse by the president of the Garda Representative Association, Michael O'Boyce, last week, so much so that the minister refused to address the conference on hearing of O'Boyce's comments.

    The outcome of the vote on the Croke Park deal remains on a knife-edge, with the biggest public-service union, Impact, emerging as the union that will ultimately decide whether the deal gets over the line or not.

    Based on the assumption that the union members vote in accordance with their executive's recommendation on the Croke Park deal, there are currently 990 Ictu delegate votes in favour of the deal and 910 against, with 690 as yet undecided.

    Impact has 580 of the undecided votes at Ictu so its decision will now sway the vote one way or the other. Last month, the Impact executive caused a major shock when its executive decided that it could not recommend acceptance of the deal. This was despite the fact its general secretary, Peter McLoone, was one of the key architects of the Croke Park deal and had spoken about it as the best available in the current economic climate.

    But McLoone has since called for "clarifications" which could allow the Impact executive to recommend acceptance of the deal. The executive meets on Thursday – the day after all public unions meet to consider Mulvey's proposals.

    These two meetings will be critical to the fate of the Croke Park deal. But all members have yet to vote on the deal and as has happened before, they could vote against their executive's advice.

    Either way, it appears the vote will be close. This raises the prospect of a large disgruntled minority. And nobody knows how they might act.


«134

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Joe Higgins and his philosophies got Greece into the dilemma it's in.

    Not denying that pure greed and bad practices got Ireland into it's difficulties,but when will people learn that to pay yourself big money, give yourself great conditions,has to be based on selling stuff other people are prepared to buy??

    Absolutely no use striking or wrecking the gaff as it will achieve nothing.

    The capitalist bankers screwed us up aided and abetteted by an inept Govt. but sure as hell Joe Higgins' philosophy is not the answer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Joe Higgins and his philosophies got Greece into the dilemma it's in...

    I didn't realise Joe had a big following in Greece.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    I didn't realise Joe had a big following in Greece.

    :)
    ...his philosophies...

    "those" philosophies (ahem) have gotten a lot of countries in trouble over last 100 years

    doesn't stop deluded people believing and attempting them over and over


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I really am uncertain about what lies ahead. The best case scenario I can see is that they reject the deal and the government makes massive changes and cuts in the PS. If they accept the deal...well we can't exactly afford the PS wage bill at the moment so it doesn't change anything. All it means is when the gov need to make cuts in future there'll be screams of TRAITORSSS etc from the PS.

    If the deal is accepted then I'm guessing welfare is going to have to be demolished in the next budget. Doubt that will go down too well.


    I wonder if we managed to get a few people out in a support demonstration for PS cuts how well that would go down.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    EF wrote: »
    Personally I will be voting in favour of this agreement as a stepping stone towards having the paycuts reversed

    I certainly wouldn't want to talk you out of accepting the deal, but eh, good luck with that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    This been Ireland I wouldn't be at surprised if the deal was rejected by ps workers, thats not a snowballs chance in hell that ps workers will get the pay cuts reversed next year.

    Hopefully by then the IMF will be knocking at the door, but I will congratulate Jack O'Connor at least he's finally talking a little bit of sense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    amacachi wrote: »
    I certainly wouldn't want to talk you out of accepting the deal, but eh, good luck with that.

    All indications are that interest rates are going to rise and that we will return to a period of inflation, so even standing still until 2014 public sector workers will face substantial real (i.e. after inflation) pay cuts, unless the annual reviews gradually reverse the cuts already imposed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    I hate to say it but I hope they reject it so the government can do to them what they did with the taxis, who showed equal disregard for society and promptly got f*cked by the regulator because they wouldnt accept a comparatively reasonable deal of license issuances.

    Stop standing as a bloc and you'll stop getting cut as a bloc. If you stand shoulder to shoulder with the over paid HSE management and incompetent f*cwits in the upper civil service, then dont complain when the rest of us hack through you to get to them.
    They are practically using low paid, front line workers as a human shield at this point.

    DeV.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    DeVore wrote: »
    I hate to say it but I hope they reject it so the government can do to them what they did with the taxis, who showed equal disregard for society and promptly got f*cked by the regulator because they wouldnt accept a comparatively reasonable deal of license issuances.

    DeV.

    A lot of public sector workers are completely out of touch with reality if they reject this deal they all deserve to have their salaries cut by a further 25%-40% depending on salary on the grounds of sheer stupidity.


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  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    EF wrote: »
    All indications are that interest rates are going to rise and that we will return to a period of inflation, so even standing still until 2014 public sector workers will face substantial real (i.e. after inflation) pay cuts, unless the annual reviews gradually reverse the cuts already imposed.

    Interest rates rising in a severely indebted country = ...inflation?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    Interest rates rising in a severely indebted country = ...inflation?

    Interest rates are due to rise and we are forecast to return to a period of inflation are we not?


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    EF wrote: »
    we are forecast to return to a period of inflation are we not?

    In Ireland? Not for a few years me thinks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭rebel.ranter


    Just watching CNN & BBC World here over the past week while on holidays. It puts an interesting perspective on what is happening back home.
    Greece is going through the mill at the moment & the reports show Ireland with a greater percentage of debt/GDP. Ireland are adjudged to have the problem under control for now with the current pay cuts in the Public Sector, etc. in place. Of the situation changes we could then be faced with what Greece have been dealt:
    - 30-40% pay cuts for Pub Sec
    - pensions cut
    - work longer for less
    - higher taxes for all including corp tax

    Greece have no choice, the euro zone has no choice. If we sail off course we will be heading for the same disaster. How do people not see this?
    We cannot afford to keep our Pub Sec the way it is, whether we want to or not.
    If the plan fails it will only be "the wealthy" (that the unions always hold up as those who should pay) who will survive as they have their "rainy day" money tucked up safely.
    Industrial action will only serve to destruct the path to resolution & lead us into REAL cuts.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭Fulton Crown


    Well said poster - particularly agree with the point made about public service fat cats.

    Was a very good letter in todays Indo re that idiot P J Stone - the fellow at the head of the GRA.

    These fellows firing from their well paid bunkers need a stiff dose of reality - there is certainly no public sympathy for them.

    The point about the taxis is well made - these fookooos held us to ransome for too many years - now at last reality has set in thanks to a competent regulator.

    The day of thew bully is not over yet though - Quinnn tried it to face down the Fin Regulator using his workers as cannon fodder - undoubtably this would have worked in the past with the help of a craven gombeen Govt.

    Thankfully they realise they can't take us for complete fools anymore and Quinn got no support.

    Was so refreshing to hear Colm McCarthy tell like it is - and say that if the Quinn workers want to blame somebody don't blame the regulatr - blame the guy who took a massive punt on theirs and their childrens future ..and lost.

    Well said Sir ! And about bloody time too....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    Most people I speak to at work are going to vote for it. My feeling is that impact will recommend it to its members too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Choices seem to be vote for a deal that promises the government will try not to have more pay cuts (which is a good deal when you take into account the government can't promise not to cut pay, just look at Greece, its not their choice). In exchange the government wants reforms.

    Or they tell the goverment to go screw themselves and take whatever the government decides they have public support for given the public sector can't even agree to pay freeze in exchange for reforms (which is how the public will view a rejection of the deal).

    It looks like a no brainer to me TBH.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Scuba Ste


    This post has been deleted.

    Thats a hugely insulting comment. The actual problem is the broken right wing agenda some would like to keep pushing at the expense at the rest of us.


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Scuba Ste wrote: »
    Thats a hugely insulting comment. The actual problem is the broken right wing agenda some would like to keep pushing at the expense at the rest of us.

    The irony...a PS employee talking about "the expense to the rest of us.."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭flutered


    the answer me thinks is simple, go down the borheen that greece has, or stay on a smooth highway and pay the tolls


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Haven't we paid for these reforms several times over already with the Benchmarking agreements? I seem to remember that they were going to radically transform the public services. Seems like the only transformation that took place was in the take home pay of public servants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Scuba Ste wrote: »
    Thats a hugely insulting comment. The actual problem is the broken right wing agenda some would like to keep pushing at the expense at the rest of us.

    Does this mean the Public Sector Unions were not at the SociaL Partnership Deals I thought they pretty much controlled them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Scuba Ste


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The irony...a PS employee talking about "the expense to the rest of us.."

    The ignorance...thinking anyone who doesnt agree with you is a PS worker.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Scuba Ste wrote: »
    The ignorance...thinking anyone who doesnt agree with you is a PS worker.
    Perhaps you have PS workers in your family?

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I'm beginning to wonder if Ireland following Greece down the path they're on is somewhat inevitable. The public sector unions accepting the deal or not seems like a side-show to me. This deal doesn't go anywhere near addressing the yawning gap between income and expenditure and if it's rejected, I still have no confidence in the government to impose the necessary changes despite the public support being there to slash numbers and compensation packages.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,044 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I'm beginning to wonder if Ireland following Greece down the path they're on is somewhat inevitable. The public sector unions accepting the deal or not seems like a side-show to me. This deal doesn't go anywhere near addressing the yawning gap between income and expenditure and if it's rejected, I still have no confidence in the government to impose the necessary changes despite the public support being there to slash numbers and compensation packages.
    Maybe because their own fat salaries are linked to those of top civil servants. I agree, this deal is not enough and the government will not be able to leave PS pay at current levels as private sector incomes (and the taxes they generate) plummet.

    They will also have to cut all social welfare payments at some stage. We simply can't justify paying 196 quid a week when it's app. 73 quid a week over the border. The money is not there and the Germans will only bail out so many waster countries like us before their own electorate gets up in arms.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,612 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I agree, welfare needs to be cut across the board, particularly the blanket payments (e.g. Children's Allowance).

    The tax net needs to be widened to take every working person into the net, even if you're on minimum wage, you can afford to contribute a couple of euros a week.

    Public sector spending needs to be brutally slashed, no spend on anything (e.g. new IT hardware, conference attendence, training etc) without Director-level sign off where the top guys can expect to be grilled by the minister about any expenditure to ensure it's necessary and not just a matter of someone being frustrated by a laptop that's not brand new or fancying a 'soft' week training. A group of civil servants needs to do likewise with ministerial and deputy spending and expenses. We need the equivalent of a financial bootcamp to cut away the fat while retaining (or building) muscle.

    And even after all that, we are still going to have to reduce numbers and salaries. IMHO, it'd be in the interest of the majority of public workers to tell the unions to march off a cliff and let each group of workers negotiate their own deals. As Dev pointed out, as long as the nurses and paramedics are standing side by side with the utterly inefficient HSE workers, they'll suffer because of those they're choosing to associate with. In this regard, I feel the PS Unions are acting against the interests of the PS workers (both "front-line" AND administrative) who are productive, competent and wouldn't suffer too badly were a private sector style cost-cutting plan put into action. They'd still probably be looking at giving up their increments and up to another 5% or so off their core salaries (possibly even a re-defining of the pension plan) but if they continue to deal as a bloc, I think they can expect 30 - 40% reductions when Fianna Gael have to call in the IMF to sort out their predecessors mess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    It is unfortunate that privitisation has been smeared by association with the PDS but there must be considerable privitisation of many of the services now covered by the PS both to reduce costs and to improve quality of servises. The success of private rubbish collection is testament to the benfits available from privitisation. And yes the PS must now be subject to redundancies in the same way as private sector workers are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭SeanW


    as well as (among other things) private driving tests. Before SGS got a contract to do Cat B (car) driving tests, the public service monopoly was keeping people waiting up to 60 weeks (that's right, a year and 2 months) for a driving test ... the unions stance? No private involvement, give our members yet more overtime ...

    **** getting agreement. Time to get the axe out NOW.

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    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    The unions arent "protecting the workers from abuse" any more. They are strong arm lobbyists holding us to ransom at this point.

    DeV.

    ps: If you are in a PS union they will drive you into the arms of the IMF but then ironically, they will be fine. You'll be fecked. They roll the dice, you pay if it comes up snakeeyes and we all pay if it doesnt.


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