"A huge week in the history of industrial relations"

ParkRunner

As the title says, it will be a huge week in the history of industrial relations as some trade unions start voting on the proposed public sector agreement, clarifications are obtained in relation to some aspects of the deal and IMPACT comes off the fence to decide which way to recommend to its members to vote.

Given how close this vote will be it will be interesting to see will ICTU emerge still intact and united after the votes have all been counted, or will a disgruntled minority split away to pursue their own agenda.

Personally I will be voting in favour of this agreement as a stepping stone towards having the paycuts reversed as "rejection would leave the government on the 'high moral ground' in that it would have offered the 'deal of the century' to public servants, who would now have only themselves to blame for rejecting it.

This would allow finance minister Brian Lenihan to proceed with public backing to extract more pay cuts next December. Such a move would be a far easier way of achieving the required €3bn savings than lengthy union reforms which would probably never yield the same level of savings as a straight pay cut."

On another note, while I do admire Joe Higgins for the work that he does, I can't help but notice that the Socialist Party are heavily involved in this debate and trying to influence the recommendations of Trade Union Executive Committees. Many Socialist Party members have positions in the Unions themselves, which must surely be regarded as a conflict of interest, given the potential political consequences should the proposed agreement be rejected?

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/may/02/government-and-unions-face-each-other-in-croke-par/

Government and unions face each other in Croke Park crucial deciderThe public service deal, which will be voted on this week, is on a knife-edge, writes Martin Frawley

It's set to be a huge week in the history of industrial relations in Ireland. Some time over the next few days, Kieran Mulvey, the facilitator of the Croke Park deal between unions and the government, and the chief executive of the Labour Relations Commission, will outline a clarification of what was agreed between both sides in March. Then on Wednesday, the powerful public service committee of Ictu will meet to decide whether to recommend the deal. Its decision could well determine whether the rest of the year will be relatively peaceful or pockmarked by serious industrial action.

Last night, Siptu leader Jack O'Connor made an impassioned defence of the Croke Park pay deal, urging members to back the government's offer as the "only survival strategy" in the current climate.

Speaking in Athy at a celebration for May Day, O'Connor said that public servants should not regard a vote in favour of the deal as backing the government. "The proposals guarantee jobs, preclude compulsory redundancies, minimise outsourcing, prevent further pay cuts and provide a framework for restoring lost pay over time," he said.

O'Connor and other union leaders, who are backing the deal in the face of massive opposition from ordinary union members, will need Mulvey's clarification to be a convincing one.

The Sunday Tribune understands that it will provide a bit more certainty on pay for the unions as well as some further detail on pensions, outsourcing and a revision of the teachers' contracts.

But informed sources have pointed out that it is impossible to secure certainty in such uncertain times.

It is understood there is a growing opinion within government that it would better suit its budgetary strategy if the deal was rejected. The belief is based on the fact that rejection would leave the government on the 'high moral ground' in that it would have offered the 'deal of the century' to public servants, who would now have only themselves to blame for rejecting it.

This would allow finance minister Brian Lenihan to proceed with public backing to extract more pay cuts next December. Such a move would be a far easier way of achieving the required €3bn savings than lengthy union reforms which would probably never yield the same level of savings as a straight pay cut.

It is understood this view has gained ground in cabinet over the last few weeks as ministers have come in for some strong personal and political attacks at trade union conferences. New education minister and Tánaiste Mary Coughlan was on the sharp end of some heckling at the teachers conferences last month.

Also, justice minister Dermot Ahern was the subject of a barrage of personal and political abuse by the president of the Garda Representative Association, Michael O'Boyce, last week, so much so that the minister refused to address the conference on hearing of O'Boyce's comments.

The outcome of the vote on the Croke Park deal remains on a knife-edge, with the biggest public-service union, Impact, emerging as the union that will ultimately decide whether the deal gets over the line or not.

Based on the assumption that the union members vote in accordance with their executive's recommendation on the Croke Park deal, there are currently 990 Ictu delegate votes in favour of the deal and 910 against, with 690 as yet undecided.

Impact has 580 of the undecided votes at Ictu so its decision will now sway the vote one way or the other. Last month, the Impact executive caused a major shock when its executive decided that it could not recommend acceptance of the deal. This was despite the fact its general secretary, Peter McLoone, was one of the key architects of the Croke Park deal and had spoken about it as the best available in the current economic climate.

But McLoone has since called for "clarifications" which could allow the Impact executive to recommend acceptance of the deal. The executive meets on Thursday – the day after all public unions meet to consider Mulvey's proposals.

These two meetings will be critical to the fate of the Croke Park deal. But all members have yet to vote on the deal and as has happened before, they could vote against their executive's advice.

Either way, it appears the vote will be close. This raises the prospect of a large disgruntled minority. And nobody knows how they might act.

FlutterinBantam

Joe Higgins and his philosophies got Greece into the dilemma it's in.

Not denying that pure greed and bad practices got Ireland into it's difficulties,but when will people learn that to pay yourself big money, give yourself great conditions,has to be based on selling stuff other people are prepared to buy??

Absolutely no use striking or wrecking the gaff as it will achieve nothing.

The capitalist bankers screwed us up aided and abetteted by an inept Govt. but sure as hell Joe Higgins' philosophy is not the answer.

P. Breathnach

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Joe Higgins and his philosophies got Greece into the dilemma it's in...

I didn't realise Joe had a big following in Greece.

ei.sdraob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I didn't realise Joe had a big following in Greece.

...his philosophies...

"those" philosophies (ahem) have gotten a lot of countries in trouble over last 100 years

doesn't stop deluded people believing and attempting them over and over

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

I really am uncertain about what lies ahead. The best case scenario I can see is that they reject the deal and the government makes massive changes and cuts in the PS. If they accept the deal...well we can't exactly afford the PS wage bill at the moment so it doesn't change anything. All it means is when the gov need to make cuts in future there'll be screams of TRAITORSSS etc from the PS.

If the deal is accepted then I'm guessing welfare is going to have to be demolished in the next budget. Doubt that will go down too well.


I wonder if we managed to get a few people out in a support demonstration for PS cuts how well that would go down.

amacachi

EF wrote: »

Personally I will be voting in favour of this agreement as a stepping stone towards having the paycuts reversed

I certainly wouldn't want to talk you out of accepting the deal, but eh, good luck with that.

rightwingdub

This been Ireland I wouldn't be at surprised if the deal was rejected by ps workers, thats not a snowballs chance in hell that ps workers will get the pay cuts reversed next year.

Hopefully by then the IMF will be knocking at the door, but I will congratulate Jack O'Connor at least he's finally talking a little bit of sense.

ParkRunner

amacachi wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't want to talk you out of accepting the deal, but eh, good luck with that.

All indications are that interest rates are going to rise and that we will return to a period of inflation, so even standing still until 2014 public sector workers will face substantial real (i.e. after inflation) pay cuts, unless the annual reviews gradually reverse the cuts already imposed.

DeVore

I hate to say it but I hope they reject it so the government can do to them what they did with the taxis, who showed equal disregard for society and promptly got f*cked by the regulator because they wouldnt accept a comparatively reasonable deal of license issuances.

Stop standing as a bloc and you'll stop getting cut as a bloc. If you stand shoulder to shoulder with the over paid HSE management and incompetent f*cwits in the upper civil service, then dont complain when the rest of us hack through you to get to them.
They are practically using low paid, front line workers as a human shield at this point.

DeV.

rightwingdub

DeVore wrote: »

I hate to say it but I hope they reject it so the government can do to them what they did with the taxis, who showed equal disregard for society and promptly got f*cked by the regulator because they wouldnt accept a comparatively reasonable deal of license issuances.

DeV.

A lot of public sector workers are completely out of touch with reality if they reject this deal they all deserve to have their salaries cut by a further 25%-40% depending on salary on the grounds of sheer stupidity.

EF

EF wrote: »

All indications are that interest rates are going to rise and that we will return to a period of inflation, so even standing still until 2014 public sector workers will face substantial real (i.e. after inflation) pay cuts, unless the annual reviews gradually reverse the cuts already imposed.

Interest rates rising in a severely indebted country = ...inflation?

ParkRunner

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Interest rates rising in a severely indebted country = ...inflation?

Interest rates are due to rise and we are forecast to return to a period of inflation are we not?

EF

EF wrote: »

we are forecast to return to a period of inflation are we not?

In Ireland? Not for a few years me thinks.

rebel.ranter

Just watching CNN & BBC World here over the past week while on holidays. It puts an interesting perspective on what is happening back home.
Greece is going through the mill at the moment & the reports show Ireland with a greater percentage of debt/GDP. Ireland are adjudged to have the problem under control for now with the current pay cuts in the Public Sector, etc. in place. Of the situation changes we could then be faced with what Greece have been dealt:
- 30-40% pay cuts for Pub Sec
- pensions cut
- work longer for less
- higher taxes for all including corp tax

Greece have no choice, the euro zone has no choice. If we sail off course we will be heading for the same disaster. How do people not see this?
We cannot afford to keep our Pub Sec the way it is, whether we want to or not.
If the plan fails it will only be "the wealthy" (that the unions always hold up as those who should pay) who will survive as they have their "rainy day" money tucked up safely.
Industrial action will only serve to destruct the path to resolution & lead us into REAL cuts.

Fulton Crown

Well said poster - particularly agree with the point made about public service fat cats.

Was a very good letter in todays Indo re that idiot P J Stone - the fellow at the head of the GRA.

These fellows firing from their well paid bunkers need a stiff dose of reality - there is certainly no public sympathy for them.

The point about the taxis is well made - these fookooos held us to ransome for too many years - now at last reality has set in thanks to a competent regulator.

The day of thew bully is not over yet though - Quinnn tried it to face down the Fin Regulator using his workers as cannon fodder - undoubtably this would have worked in the past with the help of a craven gombeen Govt.

Thankfully they realise they can't take us for complete fools anymore and Quinn got no support.

Was so refreshing to hear Colm McCarthy tell like it is - and say that if the Quinn workers want to blame somebody don't blame the regulatr - blame the guy who took a massive punt on theirs and their childrens future ..and lost.

Well said Sir ! And about bloody time too....

changes

Most people I speak to at work are going to vote for it. My feeling is that impact will recommend it to its members too.

thebman

Choices seem to be vote for a deal that promises the government will try not to have more pay cuts (which is a good deal when you take into account the government can't promise not to cut pay, just look at Greece, its not their choice). In exchange the government wants reforms.

Or they tell the goverment to go screw themselves and take whatever the government decides they have public support for given the public sector can't even agree to pay freeze in exchange for reforms (which is how the public will view a rejection of the deal).

It looks like a no brainer to me TBH.

Scuba Ste

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thats a hugely insulting comment. The actual problem is the broken right wing agenda some would like to keep pushing at the expense at the rest of us.

Scuba Ste

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Thats a hugely insulting comment. The actual problem is the broken right wing agenda some would like to keep pushing at the expense at the rest of us.

The irony...a PS employee talking about "the expense to the rest of us.."

flutered

the answer me thinks is simple, go down the borheen that greece has, or stay on a smooth highway and pay the tolls

Einhard

Haven't we paid for these reforms several times over already with the Benchmarking agreements? I seem to remember that they were going to radically transform the public services. Seems like the only transformation that took place was in the take home pay of public servants.

anymore

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Thats a hugely insulting comment. The actual problem is the broken right wing agenda some would like to keep pushing at the expense at the rest of us.

Does this mean the Public Sector Unions were not at the SociaL Partnership Deals I thought they pretty much controlled them.

Scuba Ste

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The irony...a PS employee talking about "the expense to the rest of us.."

The ignorance...thinking anyone who doesnt agree with you is a PS worker.

SeanW

Scuba Ste wrote: »

The ignorance...thinking anyone who doesnt agree with you is a PS worker.

Perhaps you have PS workers in your family?

Sleepy

I'm beginning to wonder if Ireland following Greece down the path they're on is somewhat inevitable. The public sector unions accepting the deal or not seems like a side-show to me. This deal doesn't go anywhere near addressing the yawning gap between income and expenditure and if it's rejected, I still have no confidence in the government to impose the necessary changes despite the public support being there to slash numbers and compensation packages.

murphaph

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if Ireland following Greece down the path they're on is somewhat inevitable. The public sector unions accepting the deal or not seems like a side-show to me. This deal doesn't go anywhere near addressing the yawning gap between income and expenditure and if it's rejected, I still have no confidence in the government to impose the necessary changes despite the public support being there to slash numbers and compensation packages.

Maybe because their own fat salaries are linked to those of top civil servants. I agree, this deal is not enough and the government will not be able to leave PS pay at current levels as private sector incomes (and the taxes they generate) plummet.

They will also have to cut all social welfare payments at some stage. We simply can't justify paying 196 quid a week when it's app. 73 quid a week over the border. The money is not there and the Germans will only bail out so many waster countries like us before their own electorate gets up in arms.

Sleepy

I agree, welfare needs to be cut across the board, particularly the blanket payments (e.g. Children's Allowance).

The tax net needs to be widened to take every working person into the net, even if you're on minimum wage, you can afford to contribute a couple of euros a week.

Public sector spending needs to be brutally slashed, no spend on anything (e.g. new IT hardware, conference attendence, training etc) without Director-level sign off where the top guys can expect to be grilled by the minister about any expenditure to ensure it's necessary and not just a matter of someone being frustrated by a laptop that's not brand new or fancying a 'soft' week training. A group of civil servants needs to do likewise with ministerial and deputy spending and expenses. We need the equivalent of a financial bootcamp to cut away the fat while retaining (or building) muscle.

And even after all that, we are still going to have to reduce numbers and salaries. IMHO, it'd be in the interest of the majority of public workers to tell the unions to march off a cliff and let each group of workers negotiate their own deals. As Dev pointed out, as long as the nurses and paramedics are standing side by side with the utterly inefficient HSE workers, they'll suffer because of those they're choosing to associate with. In this regard, I feel the PS Unions are acting against the interests of the PS workers (both "front-line" AND administrative) who are productive, competent and wouldn't suffer too badly were a private sector style cost-cutting plan put into action. They'd still probably be looking at giving up their increments and up to another 5% or so off their core salaries (possibly even a re-defining of the pension plan) but if they continue to deal as a bloc, I think they can expect 30 - 40% reductions when Fianna Gael have to call in the IMF to sort out their predecessors mess.

anymore

It is unfortunate that privitisation has been smeared by association with the PDS but there must be considerable privitisation of many of the services now covered by the PS both to reduce costs and to improve quality of servises. The success of private rubbish collection is testament to the benfits available from privitisation. And yes the PS must now be subject to redundancies in the same way as private sector workers are.

SeanW

as well as (among other things) private driving tests. Before SGS got a contract to do Cat B (car) driving tests, the public service monopoly was keeping people waiting up to 60 weeks (that's right, a year and 2 months) for a driving test ... the unions stance? No private involvement, give our members yet more overtime ...

**** getting agreement. Time to get the axe out NOW.

DeVore

The unions arent "protecting the workers from abuse" any more. They are strong arm lobbyists holding us to ransom at this point.

DeV.

ps: If you are in a PS union they will drive you into the arms of the IMF but then ironically, they will be fine. You'll be fecked. They roll the dice, you pay if it comes up snakeeyes and we all pay if it doesnt.

P. Breathnach

DeVore wrote: »

... If you are in a PS union they will drive you into the arms of the IMF but then ironically, they will be fine. You'll be fecked. They roll the dice, you pay if it comes up snakeeyes and we all pay if it doesnt.

Who are "they" who will drive PS unions into the hands of the IMF but who will be fine themselves? The PS unions are democratically organised, and it is the members who will make the decision.

In general, the leadership of the unions (those holding national elected office and senior salaried officials) were in favour of the Croke Park deal. Not all of them, of course, but most. Some of them are now finding that the members might have a different view, and are moving towards the position that the members seem to want. They are, after all, the servants of those members.

Whatever else this is, it is not a conspiracy by union officers and officials to wreck things. I suspect that it is more a move by vocal members to reject the deal. Personally, I think that is unwise of them, and I have hopes that there is a less-vocal majority among union members who also think it better to accept the deal.

DeVore

True, its in their own hands. I just rather hope they dont go the route of Greece but another part of me hopes they do so we can root-and-branch the entire PS sector. I'm not sure which is better for Ireland long term to be honest.

DeV.

P. Breathnach

I'm fairly sure that a peaceful resolution is better. From a distance, it looks to me as if Greece is close to becoming ungovernable.

I am not at all in sympathy with the less temperate PS employees, and a handful of people who post here claiming to be PS workers certainly do them no favours in public relations terms. But then I see the solutions favoured by some people here, who would hardly baulk at smashing the whole apparatus of the state, and that looks an even worse prospect.

Eliot Rosewater

P. Breathnach wrote: »

But then I see the solutions favoured by some people here, who would hardly baulk at smashing the whole apparatus of the state, and that looks an even worse prospect.

An irrelevant point: it's not an either/or choice between a bloated public sector and no public sector. The majority, if not everyone minus PS workers, would be content if we got value for money with our government services, but it constantly seems like we are not. And then when some kind of "rationalization" is proposed the unions literally throw the toys out of the pram.

It the unions reject this deal then the government will probably have the population behind them in hitting hard.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, though I think P. Breathnach was trying to use the extreme case scenario to justify the current situation. Such as: if I eat 30 loaves of bread in one day it will damage my digestion system, hence I should eat no bread whatsoever. In this case: having no public sector is damaging, hence we should not cut the public sector whatsoever.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I believe you mentioned, some time ago, about how the publicly employed driver testers kicked up a stink when the government gave the private firm SGS some of the service. It is perhaps representative of privatization as a whole: the interests of the select few, who would lose out, are put ahead of the overall interests of the population, who would gain.

FlashGordon1969

Look even if this deal is accepted more pay cuts are Prob a reality-Im a teacher. Im still voting no because the Government has refused to tell us what areas of the teaching contract they wish to change after we vote yes. No headings for discussion/Nada. So ,why vote yes,get a pay cut anyway and unspecified reforms?

As for the right wing on this site their will be no steam rolling of the Public sector, because the last thing we need is headlines around the World on all out strikes.

Teachers are not adverse to reform despite what the media and the usual teacher bashers on this site say, nor are they adverse to making efficiencies but I dont sign what would be in effect a blank contract. Talks on the contract would start after a yes vote.

As for redundancies-if there is excess staff-cut away,But the public sector overall is not overstaffed as certified by the OECD.

DeVore

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that a peaceful resolution is better. From a distance, it looks to me as if Greece is close to becoming ungovernable.

I am not at all in sympathy with the less temperate PS employees, and a handful of people who post here claiming to be PS workers certainly do them no favours in public relations terms. But then I see the solutions favoured by some people here, who would hardly baulk at smashing the whole apparatus of the state, and that looks an even worse prospect.

Omlettes, eggs, breakings, cliches.


If I was left no other choice, yeah... I would dismantle it to build it again. It would take two terms to complete but it would eradicate the PS as we know it now and probably cause a massive problem and possibly the army. But yeah, if its that or the wall... I would go to war with parts of the PS.

Parts of....

My point all along is that while you stand together, you leave the government and by extension the public, little choice but to make sweeping cuts accross the board. We need the ability to go "this bloke isnt doing his or any job, let him go"..... and for that we need metrics.


By the way, even the people *I* employ in Boards operate under metrics. You should see the unmericful kickings I have delivered to sales people in other companies I have been a director of simply because they didnt fulfil a target quota. In insurance companies, you're dismissal is AUTOMATIC in some places, if you dont fill your quota.

We all like money, we all want to take it from someone, but for the private sector, it comes with a lot of questions about "what are you doing for me thats worth this money" and in the PS those questions seem strangely overlooked.


Why is that?

DeV.

DeVore

FlashGordon1969 wrote: »

Look even if this deal is accepted more pay cuts are Prob a reality-Im a teacher. Im still voting no because the Government has refused to tell us what areas of the teaching contract they wish to change after we vote yes. No headings for discussion/Nada. So ,why vote yes,get a pay cut anyway and unspecified reforms?

As for the right wing on this site their will be no steam rolling of the Public sector, because the last thing we need is headlines around the World on all out strikes.

Teachers are not adverse to reform despite what the media and the usual teacher bashers on this site say, nor are they adverse to making efficiencies but I dont sign what would be in effect a blank contract. Talks on the contract would start after a yes vote.

As for redundancies-if there is excess staff-cut away,But the public sector overall is not overstaffed as certified by the OECD.

We cant "cut away".... the unions will strike. No?

DeV.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

DeVore

Such images shake the confidence of markets and money men... that brings movement and movement in a market brings speculators, like blood brings sharks.

It would take very little for Ireland to be in the spot light and then have news agencies all over the world being to speculate on our future ability to repay. As a result Standard and Poors will alter our credit rating (like they have Portugals, Spains (twice) and Greeces. Then we have a further pressure on our finances in the form of higher interest repayments. Then we really will have an actual problem repaying the loans.

This is a classic case of "Perception causing Reality". A bank is perceived as shakey, the bank in fact is rock solid but its perceived as shakey.... the result: People withdraw or dont bank with them. Consequence: The bank DOES become shakey (and lots of people say "I told you so!" :rolleyes:).




As for Portugal Greece Spain.... mercifully we have been left out of that group in recent days but its not time for us to be putting our heads up over the battlefield.

The message we need to be sending out right now is "we know we have a problem and we are sorting it out... nothing to see here".

DeV.

Call Me Jimmy

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Quote of the year!

P. Breathnach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Yes, though I think P. Breathnach was trying to use the extreme case scenario to justify the current situation...

Wrong. But don't let that bother you.

flutered

on the 6 o clock news this evening tommy gorman interviewea greek teacher, she said that her wages were going to be cut from 1300 euro per month down to 900, to live she claimed was going to be hard, would ps be able to take the same cut here if the imf steps in, if they cannot, then they had better make sure that it do not.

Eliot Rosewater

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Wrong. But don't let that bother you.

So what was the point? Just another dig at the libertarians?

FlashGordon1969 wrote: »

As for the right wing on this site their will be no steam rolling of the Public sector, because the last thing we need is headlines around the World on all out strike

Unfortunately the usual tactic of stereotyping the opposition as "right wingers" doesn't work anymore: everyone is demanding that the public sector become efficient.

danman

FlashGordon1969 wrote: »

Look even if this deal is accepted more pay cuts are Prob a reality-Im a teacher. Im still voting no because the Government has refused to tell us what areas of the teaching contract they wish to change after we vote yes. No headings for discussion/Nada. So ,why vote yes,get a pay cut anyway and unspecified reforms?

As for the right wing on this site their will be no steam rolling of the Public sector, because the last thing we need is headlines around the World on all out strikes.

Teachers are not adverse to reform despite what the media and the usual teacher bashers on this site say, nor are they adverse to making efficiencies but I dont sign what would be in effect a blank contract. Talks on the contract would start after a yes vote.

As for redundancies-if there is excess staff-cut away,But the public sector overall is not overstaffed as certified by the OECD.

I feel sorry that you feel that way.

But your no vote will give the Government a free license to cut where ever it feels like it.
The unions were given as good a deal as they could be given, given the circumstances. The general public see that and they will back the Government to the hilt when they make the neccessary cuts.

My wife and members of my family work in the PS, and a no vote will inflict cuts on them, even though they are all voting yes.
Democracy rules in this case, but sometimes democracy isn't fair on all.

ardmacha

.
The unions were given as good a deal as they could be given, given the circumstances.

Which does not mean that the deal should not have been made clearer.

The general public see that and they will back the Government to the hilt when they make the neccessary cuts.

It is marvellous how people can rant about FF duplicity while at the same time cheering on FF in practicing duplicity on the public service.

flutered

flutered wrote: »

on the 6 o clock news this evening tommy gorman interviewea greek teacher, she said that her wages were going to be cut from 1300 euro per month down to 900, to live she claimed was going to be hard, would ps be able to take the same cut here if the imf steps in, if they cannot, then they had better make sure that it do not.

I was discussing this with my Dad earlier - who works in a semi-state body. I like that we're getting a nice little preview of what Ireland could be like in a year or two with Greece. Is this what the militant PS workers want? Will they still be calling for pay rises etc when the country is on the verge (even more so than now) of going bankrupt?

P. Breathnach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

So what was the point? Just another dig at the libertarians? ...

Heaven forfend! Libertarians are sacrosanct.

danman

ardmacha wrote: »

Which does not mean that the deal should not have been made clearer.



It is marvellous how people can rant about FF duplicity while at the same time cheering on FF in practicing duplicity on the public service.

No one has a crystal ball to look into the future. The terms are unclear simply because the future is unclear.
No one can say with any certainty that the economy will non decline more sharply, so there cannot be any certainty that further cuts will not be needed.

They are saying that if the economy doesn't nosedive, the Government will not cut further, as long as the unions agree to allow the PS to be run more efficiently.

To any fair minded person, that seems reasonable.
I fail to see why union members don't think so.