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Wages worth less every month

  • 03-05-2010 01:40AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35


    i seem to have less money each month,we are tod the cost of living is going down,so why is insurances,petrol,oil,coal,everything goin up,prsi is worth allmost nothing,we on very average wages are finding it hard,yet we are being pushed to the limit,by government maybe they think by more people loosing there homes to the banks is going to save the country.and its government that are putting ordinary people under pressure ,with all these new regulations:mad:


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    petrol
    The greens think that if they increase tax on petrol people will use less petrol, when in fact people have only used less petrol, as less people are driving to work, as less people have jobs.

    Two thirds of the cost of petrol, me thinks, is tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 780 ✭✭✭dRNk SAnTA


    the_syco wrote: »
    The greens think that if they increase tax on petrol people will use less petrol, when in fact people have only used less petrol, as less people are driving to work, as less people have jobs.

    Two thirds of the cost of petrol, me thinks, is tax.

    Yeah they do think that, so does pretty much everybody. The best way to reduce carbon emissions is to tax them. That way it will influence future lifestyle decisions such as where you live/what car you buy/what appliances you buy and you can cut down on energy use.

    Incentivising behaviour through tax is nothing new, the carbon tax is just the same as the plastic bag tax, cigarette/alcohol tax, congestion charges, parking meters, water charges etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    You do realise that fossil fuel are a finite, non renewable resource? The price is only going one way. Insurance premiums are going up as the investment gain are way lower last two years .If that's all you spend your money on then , yes, everything is going up. For the rest of us prices are going down http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=CPM01.asp&TableName=January+to+December+2009&StatisticalProduct=DB_CP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭scudzilla


    the_syco wrote: »
    The greens think that if they increase tax on petrol people will use less petrol, when in fact people have only used less petrol, as less people are driving to work, as less people have jobs.

    Two thirds of the cost of petrol, me thinks, is tax.

    i think it's a lot higher than that, also add cigarettes to this, the government wants everybody to give up smoking, as do the do-gooders.

    Do they not realise that on an average packet of smokes, costing 8.50, 7 euro of that goes to the tax man.

    If everybody gave up smoking tomorrow this country would be in so much shit, tax would go up to 40% across the board in a matter of weeks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    scudzilla wrote: »
    i think it's a lot higher than that, also add cigarettes to this, the government wants everybody to give up smoking, as do the do-gooders.

    Do they not realise that on an average packet of smokes, costing 8.50, 7 euro of that goes to the tax man.

    If everybody gave up smoking tomorrow this country would be in so much shit, tax would go up to 40% across the board in a matter of weeks

    They dont actually. They want to raise the tax on fags just enough that you can still afford to smoke and pay the tax. While pretending they are doing it for the good of your health. If they really wanted people to give up smoking add a tenner onto a pack. I bet that seriously cuts the amount of people who smoke straight away.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    AARRRRGH wrote: »
    They dont actually. They want to raise the tax on fags just enough that you can still afford to smoke and pay the tax. While pretending they are doing it for the good of your health. If they really wanted people to give up smoking add a tenner onto a pack. I bet that seriously cuts the amount of people who smoke straight away.

    I doubt it. I bet it increases black market selling straight away. I am heading over to Ireland in the summer. A pack of Camel lights here is 3 euro. If I were to bring over 3 cartons(10 packs per carton) and sell those cartons for a fiver per pack, I would make 60 euro. Throw in another couple of packs, and thats my flights paid. Throw in a few more packs and I turn a profit.

    I am not intending on doing this, instead the 3 packs will go to my uncle who smokes like a chimney, but a lot of people do do this, and the government is losing out big time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    the_syco wrote: »
    The greens think that if they increase tax on petrol people will use less petrol, when in fact people have only used less petrol, as less people are driving to work, as less people have jobs.
    As a 'green' policy, it is complete failure. If you want to encourage people to stop driving, that is all well and good, but then you need to offer an alternative, and public transport in Ireland remains one of the worst in Europe.

    The real reason is that taxes on petrol, alcohol, tobacco, gambling, pornography (in some countries), prostitution (where legal) and the like are often referred to as moral taxes - taxes on vices or things that are otherwise considered bad or difficult to defend, thus making it easier to tax them at high levels under the pretext that the government is trying to get people to smoke, drink, gamble less, or look at less porn. It's politically difficult, if not impossible, to defend cheaper cigarettes, after all.

    We would probably have a tax on condoms, were it not for HIV.

    The paradox, or more correctly hypocrisy, of moral taxes is best exemplified in countries that still retain control over the tobacco industry - often you will find one ministry taxing and campaigning against smoking, while another promoting the sale of the State brand cigarettes.
    syklops wrote: »
    I doubt it. I bet it increases black market selling straight away.
    Unless the rest of the EU increases the price of cigarettes, I suspect you're right. Given that, even if 90% of cigarettes were smuggled from abroad, the tax revenue made is so enormous that it is still worth the state's while - I remember reading in the Irish Times, around 1991, that alcohol and tobacco taxation accounted for around 36% of all government revenue at the time.

    However, I suspect that we are reaching a point with many traditional moral taxes where we have squeezed pretty much all we can and will see more imaginative moral taxes appear in the future. The new cohabitation bill suspiciously appears to want to shift the cost of unmarried lone parents away from the state and onto their partners, for example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,044 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    syklops wrote: »
    I am not intending on doing this, instead the 3 packs will go to my uncle who smokes like a chimney, but a lot of people do do this, and the government is losing out big time.
    I bet even in Brno, you can buy black market fags for less than 3 quid a pack?? Fags are 4.50 a pack here in Berlin and I see the black market fags being sold every day, so it seems no matter what price they are, they will be cheaper elsewhere and people will buy black market ones.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    murphaph wrote: »
    I bet even in Brno, you can buy black market fags for less than 3 quid a pack?? Fags are 4.50 a pack here in Berlin and I see the black market fags being sold every day, so it seems no matter what price they are, they will be cheaper elsewhere and people will buy black market ones.

    Most of the black market ones here are counterfeits. Dirt cheap, but varying levels of quality and often completely different flavour. Sometimes flavour varies within packs. If money is tight Ill smoke LM blue which is 66 corwns which is about 2.50. Paramount is 2 euro but they taste like crap.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Have to say...the petrol tax and the Green's attitude towards driving etc annoys the hell out of me, for the simple reason that they preach on and on about carbon measures, and taking public transport....yet nowhere in this whol debate does anybody contemplate the fact that our public transport system is pathetic. People have no other options.If I live in Celbridge and work in, say Swords...how would I get there every day?3 buses? 4 buses?At irregular times of day and night? We have an obsession with connecting the outer city to the city centre....we never consider connecting the suburbs to each other.The irony being that you can actually walk across our city centre in the space of about 30 mins, from main shopping area to main shopping area.
    I know I am absolutely scathing about public transport, but I've used public transport in cities and countries all over Europe, and in the states, and we are so far removed from a proper system it's ridiculous. Even in San Francisco, who's residents would consider their system to be poor relative to other cities...it's far above the standard of ours and the city is many times the size of Dublin. And then our politicians have the absolute cheek to tell us to get off the roads.....it leaves me speechless.
    Rant over!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    dRNk SAnTA wrote: »
    The best way to reduce carbon emissions is to tax them.

    Irish carbon emissions fallen of a cliff anyways thanks to the recession

    all these taxes will accomplish is drive more business away and cause more unemployment

    the Greens never fail to amaze me in their stupidity despite all the hot air they produce about "smart economy"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    I drive 230 miles on a Monday morning to get to work, I then drive the same back home on a Friday.
    Public transport would take me 7 hours, and considering I start work at 8 in the morning, I'd love to know how I can do it.

    In principle, I agree with the carbon tax. The problem is, there is no alternitive unless you live and work in an urban area.

    When I work in Dublin, I drive down at the start of the week and use public transport. But this option is rarely open to me.

    I do agree with cutting emisions in the country, but at the same time, people need to drive to go aboun their daily lives in this country.
    I can't see that changing in the foreseeable future.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 879 ✭✭✭woodseb


    danman wrote: »
    I drive 230 miles on a Monday morning to get to work, I then drive the same back home on a Friday.
    Public transport would take me 7 hours, and considering I start work at 8 in the morning, I'd love to know how I can do it.

    In principle, I agree with the carbon tax. The problem is, there is no alternitive unless you live and work in an urban area.

    When I work in Dublin, I drive down at the start of the week and use public transport. But this option is rarely open to me.

    I do agree with cutting emisions in the country, but at the same time, people need to drive to go aboun their daily lives in this country.
    I can't see that changing in the foreseeable future.

    If a carbon tax discourages people from driving 230miles to work every week - it seems like good policy - there's no way that kind of commute should be encouraged


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    woodseb wrote: »
    If a carbon tax discourages people from driving 230miles to work every week - it seems like good policy - there's no way that kind of commute should be encouraged
    I agree.
    Danman has decided to live in Celbridge, then he expects society to align around his choices.

    I've decided I didn't want to live a motoring commuter lifestyle so have choosen a place to live near where i work.
    I'll pay a higher rent to do that, but that's a sacrifice i'm willing to make.
    I'm also willing to move if my work does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    syklops wrote: »
    I doubt it. I bet it increases black market selling straight away. I am heading over to Ireland in the summer. A pack of Camel lights here is 3 euro. If I were to bring over 3 cartons(10 packs per carton) and sell those cartons for a fiver per pack, I would make 60 euro. Throw in another couple of packs, and thats my flights paid. Throw in a few more packs and I turn a profit.

    I am not intending on doing this, instead the 3 packs will go to my uncle who smokes like a chimney, but a lot of people do do this, and the government is losing out big time.

    There will always be a black market. Using it as an excuse to keep the tax on fags just affordable instead of really ramping it up if you want to quit smoking is just laziness. You will get more buying on the black market but Most people will just give up and will not buy on the black market.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    I agree.
    Danman has decided to live in Celbridge, then he expects society to align around his choices.

    I've decided I didn't want to live a motoring commuter lifestyle so have choosen a place to live near where i work.
    I'll pay a higher rent to do that, but that's a sacrifice i'm willing to make.
    I'm also willing to move if my work does.

    My work is in several different countries and several different cities in Ireland.
    I just just move every couple of weeks then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    AARRRRGH wrote: »
    My work is in several different countries and several different cities in Ireland.
    I just just move every couple of weeks then.
    So what, you pursue a rather atypical sort of career but still expect the government to sort out handy public transport for you?

    Or are you just giving out about carbon taxes since your carbon footprint is so big?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    As a 'green' policy, it is complete failure. If you want to encourage people to stop driving, that is all well and good, but then you need to offer an alternative, and public transport in Ireland remains one of the worst in Europe...

    One of the reasons why public transport in Ireland is bad is that people don't use it because they prefer to use cars.

    It would be absurd to run a six-times-a-day bus service between two towns if the average number of passengers carried on each bus was 3.

    In cities, especially Dublin, buses lose a lot of time because their routes are clogged by motorists making the same journey, and who justify their car preference on the basis that the bus is so slow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    I agree.
    Danman has decided to live in Celbridge, then he expects society to align around his choices.

    I've decided I didn't want to live a motoring commuter lifestyle so have choosen a place to live near where i work.
    I'll pay a higher rent to do that, but that's a sacrifice i'm willing to make.
    I'm also willing to move if my work does.

    I live in North Donegal. I have 2 choices.
    Work, and contribute to the welfare of my family and the general economy, or, not work and and claim wefare for my family of the state.

    I've had this discussion before on this forum.

    There are those that see my living in North Donegal as a selfish choice.
    I see it as being no choice at all. My family, including the support network to allow me to work, are all living in North Donegal.

    My general cost of living is much less because we didn't have the housing bubble effected by the rest of the country. I was able to buy my house at a sustainable price in 2005. In fact, it's value still above the price I paid.

    My commute is a choice between keeping my family in economic stability, and economic ruin.

    I have no family network in Cellbridge and I believe my wife and children would not have the same life there. My children are growing up in a stable and well supported envoirnment, surrounded by grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and friends.

    My 230 mile journey is less important to me than their happiness.

    As I've said, I agree with the carbon tax.
    But I do think that the money raised should be ringfenced towards proper public transport. Not simply go into the revenue coffers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    I agree.
    Danman has decided to live in Celbridge, then he expects society to align around his choices.

    I've decided I didn't want to live a motoring commuter lifestyle so have choosen a place to live near where i work.
    I'll pay a higher rent to do that, but that's a sacrifice i'm willing to make.
    I'm also willing to move if my work does.
    I think people are missing the point. One of the problems with the Irish economy is that it is too focused on a small number of urban areas, particularly Dublin. Without adequate public transport this has resulted in a residential demographic that has too many people living in too few areas around the country. This ultimately drives up costs and makes us highly uncompetitive, while leaving much of the countryside underutilized and empty.

    Ultimately, what you are suggesting is that no one should live outside of a few cities in Ireland. After all, job density is not all that great outside them, so even if you accepted a job in Mayo and moved there, what happens if you lose it? Move to a new location, given that your chances of finding another job locally are thin? That would rule out buying a house, unless you want to take the hit for buying and selling every few years.

    Suggesting that Danman should not be 'encouraged' to commute is ridiculous - what would you prefer? He goes on the Dole for the good of the environment?

    Public transport is a joke in Ireland, and long has been. CIE has been run for the benefit of it's employees and there is little or no political will to do something about it. As a result, if you are from rural Ireland and are not going to inherit a job, you pretty much move to Dublin as soon as you turn 18. The number of towns in Ireland that have a demographic chasm in the age group 18 to 40 is incredible.

    Meanwhile, in pretty much the rest of Europe, many live in rural areas and commute to urban areas to work, because they can relay upon public transport, additionally bringing their earnings back with them to stimulate local economies.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    One of the reasons why public transport in Ireland is bad is that people don't use it because they prefer to use cars.
    No, the reason that public transport in Ireland is bad is that it has been run atrociously for years. We don't even have integrated ticketing, let alone accurate timetables, FFS!

    Whether people prefer cars or not is irrelevant, the reality is even if they preferred public transport it is unusable - in short, there is no alternative.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    danman wrote: »
    I live in North Donegal. I have 2 choices.
    Work, and contribute to the welfare of my family and the general economy, or, not work and and claim wefare for my family of the state.
    There is feck all industry in North Donegal.
    You've stated some reasons for making your choice to live there.
    Now, what do you really expect of society to do?
    Surely you don't expect us to subsidise High Speed Rail to suit your lifestyle choice?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    woodseb wrote: »
    If a carbon tax discourages people from driving 230miles to work every week - it seems like good policy - there's no way that kind of commute should be encouraged

    Indeed - I see, though, that once again the discussion around the carbon tax revolves around the spurious notion that all trips are necessary. Everyone cites their commute, nobody cites the Saturday morning trip to the shops that could equally well have not happened, or been undertaken on foot.

    Nor, I notice does anyone mention the 12c rise in excise on petrol which has taken place over the same timeframe as the introduction of 4.2c of carbon tax on the same litre (and which appears to have taken the place of one of the excise rises).

    Pardon me, therefore, if I'm somewhat sceptical of the genuineness of the "difficulties" apparently caused by the carbon tax.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    There is feck all industry in North Donegal.
    You've stated some reasons for making your choice to live there.
    Now, what do you really expect of society to do?
    Surely you don't expect us to subsidise High Speed Rail to suit your lifestyle choice?

    That would be fantastic, in the mean time I'd be happy with public transport that comes from this century.

    This is what passes for public transport in North Donegal.


    http://home.clara.net/sjp/nibus/ls323_15.jpg

    Scofflaw, I'm actually in favour of the carbon tax, as I've stated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    I think people are missing the point. One of the problems with the Irish economy is that it is too focused on a small number of urban areas, particularly Dublin. Without adequate public transport this has resulted in a residential demographic that has too many people living in too few areas around the country. This ultimately drives up costs and makes us highly uncompetitive, while leaving much of the countryside underutilized and empty.

    Ultimately, what you are suggesting is that no one should live outside of a few cities in Ireland. After all, job density is not all that great outside them, so even if you accepted a job in Mayo and moved there, what happens if you lose it? Move to a new location, given that your chances of finding another job locally are thin? That would rule out buying a house, unless you want to take the hit for buying and selling every few years.

    Suggesting that Danman should not be 'encouraged' to commute is ridiculous - what would you prefer? He goes on the Dole for the good of the environment?

    Public transport is a joke in Ireland, and long has been. CIE has been run for the benefit of it's employees and there is little or no political will to do something about it. As a result, if you are from rural Ireland and are not going to inherit a job, you pretty much move to Dublin as soon as you turn 18. The number of towns in Ireland that have a demographic chasm in the age group 18 to 40 is incredible.

    Meanwhile, in pretty much the rest of Europe, many live in rural areas and commute to urban areas to work, because they can relay upon public transport, additionally bringing their earnings back with them to stimulate local economies.

    An extraordinary set of claims, rather (unusually) flying in the face of logic. Are you really saying that if the population of Ireland were more dispersed it would be more efficient? Even on basic physics that's rather obviously not going to be the case. And are you really saying that danman's choices are commuting long distances or being on the dole? Again, that's clearly not true!

    I think you're overselling the concept of rural living here. It's not a right, and claiming that the practical difficulties are minimal or should be minimal is an argument for yet further subsidy of rural lifestyles by the cities they choose to avoid.

    If people want to live in the countryside as their ancestors did, then let them live in the countryside as their ancestors did - subsistence farming. If they want to benefit from a modern economy and the country simultaneously, let them pay full price for their choice. I don't drive, I live in the city centre, and I have no interest in subsidising someone who decided it was nicer or cheaper to live in Blessington and commute to RTE than to live in Donnybrook.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    No, the reason that public transport in Ireland is bad is that it has been run atrociously for years. We don't even have integrated ticketing, let alone accurate timetables, FFS!

    Whether people prefer cars or not is irrelevant, the reality is even if they preferred public transport it is unusable - in short, there is no alternative.

    Life is generally not so simple. I claimed that "one of the reasons why public transport in Ireland is bad is that people don't use it because they prefer to use cars". I didn't say that it was the only reason.

    I don't dispute your suggestion that public transport has been badly run in many respects, and I accept that the failure to adopt an integrated ticketing system is a particularly good indicator of an incoherent approach. There are many other examples of questionable choices having been made, such as in the planning of the Luas routes and the licensing of taxis.

    But if things are to improve, one of the things that has to be tackled is our car preference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    This post has been deleted.

    A fair point, sadly, and unsurprising.
    danman wrote:
    That would be fantastic, in the mean time I'd be happy with public transport that comes from this century.

    This is what passes for public transport in North Donegal.


    http://home.clara.net/sjp/nibus/ls323_15.jpg

    Scofflaw, I'm actually in favour of the carbon tax, as I've stated.

    Apologies - if I've implied you're opposed to it I didn't intend to.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    danman wrote: »
    That would be fantastic, in the mean time I'd be happy with public transport that comes from this century.

    Accessible Public Transport did not feature in your list of reasons for choosing to live in Donegal.
    Obviously it wasn't a priority for you when choosing to live there.

    While i agree with state-run public transport i don't see N. Donegal having a very strong case for it. It has no population to justify much a subsidy.


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