Pine Martens???

Pkiernan

A friend is having quite a pine marten problem.
One very large one in particular seems to have little fear of approaching the kitchen of the house.

Can they be legally shot/trapped?
If so, is there a season?
If legal to shoot, will a taxidermist mount one for me?

Thanks,
P.

Pkiernan

Okay, it looks like they are protected.

Does anyone know if they can be live-trapped and relocated?

Thanks.

jwshooter

what is it doing ?

Eddie B

Pkiernan wrote: »

A friend is having quite a pine marten problem.
One very large one in particular seems to have little fear of approaching the kitchen of the house.

Can they be legally shot/trapped?
If so, is there a season?
If legal to shoot, will a taxidermist mount one for me?

Thanks,
P.

A taxidermist will mount any roadkill! They won't mount any protected species with led in them!

You cant knowingly go out and trap Pine martins, but if one should accidentily walk into your mink cage!;)

But then there's the risk of getting caught in posession of one, so maybe better off leaving them be!

johngalway

They're protected as far as I know, as Eddie says, best to leave him be.

Steyr243Hunter

Contacting NPWS, section 42 would be the legal route to go down, no experience with pine martins do. I was chatting to a fella and he was saying a pine martin killed a load of chickens on him. Other foresters i was talking to where saying that there is so many of them around they should be classed as vermin. I have only seen one while out stalking and thought it was a fox until i had the scope on him. They would look good mounted:):)

LostCovey

Steyr243Hunter wrote: »

They would look good mounted:):)

So would some irresponsible hunters of the nudge-nudge w*nk-w*nk variety.

Both enjoy legal protection in our jurisdiction.

LostCovey

homerhop

In my 37 years I have only ever seen 2, leave well enough alone.

moose112

Apparently they quite like the taste of grey squirrels so bring them on

Pkiernan

Since they are protected, I won't be going near them.

The homeowner is feeling a little intimidated by them, and by the big one in particular as it comes right up to the house, and is by all descriptions quite large and does not show too much fear of humans.

Are there any accounts of PM's going after/worrying young livestock?

johngalway

NPWS may know of a way of deterring them from approaching the house, as Steyr says have a chat with them. I don't know much about PM's myself.

wolfpawnat

Pine Mariens have a diet of Rodents (particularly squirells and voles) and very small birds (never has there been records of them eating young lambs or the like as they are a mere 45-55cm long including tale, signifying they are too small, though that never stopped their cousin the mink!!!!

And yes they are a protected animal! So no bang bangs!!!!

jwshooter

i have one in the freezer to get mounted ,it was hit by a car in front of me .

i rang a ranger i know ,she told be it is illegal to remove road kill ,u can remove its still alive or just dieing .

they would have to the ultimate killing machine ,a very powerful animal for there size .

very unusual for one to be so tame ,it must be feeding from the cats/dogs dish .there is only two reasons a animal or rodent will come to us food/warmth.

i would have the camera on the ready is it was in my garden

landkeeper

:eek:have you tried any of the mustelid family beuchhhhhchhhh

moose112 wrote: »

Apparently they quite like the taste of grey squirrels so bring them on

Eddie B

Pkiernan wrote: »

Since they are protected, I won't be going near them.

The homeowner is feeling a little intimidated by them, and by the big one in particular as it comes right up to the house, and is by all descriptions quite large and does not show too much fear of humans.

Are there any accounts of PM's going after/worrying young livestock?

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Pine Mariens have a diet of Rodents (particularly squirells and voles) and very small birds (never has there been records of them eating young lambs or the like as they are a mere 45-55cm long including tale, signifying they are too small, though that never stopped their cousin the mink!!!!

And yes they are a protected animal! So no bang bangs!!!!

I think Chicken, Duck and Turkey are clasified as livestock! If so, id say they'd be very worried if there was a Pine Martin around!:eek:

Also Pine martins grow to more than 31 inches which is a good bit more than 45-55cm! A full grown buck is far larger than any buck Mink!

landkeeper

yep we had 230ish 12wk pheasant poults slaughtered one night by one loverly sight that morning :mad: and the ones i've seen were round here twice the size of a good ferret , although i picked one up on the road a few years ago near ballinrobe and that was only ferret sized and was suckling young

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

i would have the camera on the ready is it was in my garden

I think that's the best idea. I know of a couple seen near my place, but never spotted one myself. I'd love to see one in the wild. Beautiful animals.

jwshooter

landkeeper wrote: »

yep we had 230ish 12wk pheasant poults slaughtered one night by one loverly sight that morning :mad: and the ones i've seen were round here twice the size of a good ferret , although i picked one up on the road a few years ago near ballinrobe and that was only ferret sized and was suckling young

you must have big fecken ferrets landkeeper .

landkeeper

jwshooter wrote: »

you must have big fecken ferrets landkeeper .

yep go with the rabbits with 4" heads
on a serious note the first one i saw alive near me here i actually thought it was an otter till it came closer i assume like ferrets there is a size difference between male and female ,and age as well lady down the road has one she got mounted years ago and that one is big (no jokes lads)

Eddie B

landkeeper wrote: »

yep go with the rabbits with 4" heads
on a serious note the first one i saw alive near me here i actually thought it was an otter till it came closer i assume like ferrets there is a size difference between male and female ,and age as well lady down the road has one she got mounted years ago and that one is big (no jokes lads)

Brought one to a taxidermist last winter that i found on the side of the road. He took one look at it and said, too small and also poor coat!

He said a good one is around 2.5 kg, the one i had was only 1.5kg!
He then show'd me one he had mounted for himself, big animal! As big as a well fed Tom Cat id say!

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

they would have to the ultimate killing machine ,a very powerful animal for there size

Hi jwshooter,

That kind of language sounds a little bit hysterical if you don't mind me saying. More like what you would see in an English tabloid than from someone who seems to have a good understanding of the Irish countryside like yourself.

We have plenty of Pine Martens around here, and I see them fairly regularly, alive and as roadkill. I don't get the "stuffing & mounting" thing, I really don't get anything from looking at stuffed dead things, especially when the live version is outside. Personal taste, everyone to their own. However the idea 'floated' ever so subtly in an earlier post of killing something wild to stuff it is just a weird way to think about wild creatures and the ecosystem we all live in. It seems more like the old Victorian attitude to nature than contemporary thinking. Very odd to consider that attitude (and it's not that uncommon) is surviving longer here in Ireland than it did in the UK where I think it originated 2 centuries back - the idea that nature is best appreciated on a wall or in a glass case in controlled conditions seems very dated, when modern optics & night vision put all wildlife within our reach without the need to "collect specimens". The old Victorian approach "what's hit is history, what's missed is mystery" seems to linger on in a destructive minority.

Some people round here also feed Pine Martens (like some feed foxes) and have them coming to the garden night after night.

They do undoubtedly kill a lot of birds, and would certainly kill poultry if they got a chance. However even though we have had a few poultry wipe-outs on our farm, they have been due to Fox or Mink. Any measures to keep them out keeps out Pine Martens - except that some extra measures are needed to address the fact that Pine Martens can climb!

Does anything kill as many birds as domestic cats?

Having said that, it's amazing how much mythology there is about Pine Martens - e.g. that they have a claw in their tail, can climb sheer walls etc. Makes them sound supernatural. They are lovely little beasts, and do what they have to do to get through the day like the rest of us.

If anything is the "ultimate killing machine" it's us humans.

LostCovey

jwshooter

i enjoy your posts lostcovey .

your right about cats .

the pine marten has to be our ultimate killer ,im not sure its a sport killer like fox,mink.

i would have no problem with one or two about the grounds .

thing is ....we in wexford that sea trout /salmon fish have 100s of seals eating every thing that sticks its nose up the slaney.in my opinion there should be culled and hard .
same as where there is a deer problem .cormorants should be shot on sight in land .
green party members , a well you get the gist .

iv two jays on the feeders hear the day i see 3 one gets a no 7 .

there is a place for all ,finding the ballance is our problem , its our job to find it .

funny you mention mounting stuff ,the natural history museum reopened this week ,one of the biggest trophy/stuffed /bone collections of animals in the world .

i must go and see it again its years since i have been ,have you been

fodda

jwshooter wrote: »

i enjoy your posts lostcovey .
there is a place for all ,finding the ballance is our problem , its our job to find it .

What does that mean?

Eddie B

And first prize goes to!!!:D:D:D

johngalway

jwshooter wrote: »

thing is ....we in wexford that sea trout /salmon fish have 100s of seals eating every thing that sticks its nose up the slaney.

Far side of the island across the bay, there's another bay leading up to a river. When the salmon are heading up, you could almost walk from one side of that bay to the other stepping on seals heads.

Did the seals get culled? No. The small two men in a currach outfits did. :rolleyes:

jwshooter

johngalway wrote: »

Far side of the island across the bay, there's another bay leading up to a river. When the salmon are heading up, you could almost walk from one side of that bay to the other stepping on seals heads.

Did the seals get culled? No. The small two men in a currach outfits did. :rolleyes:

the problem we face in rural ireland have is , some one with a degree in pubs in dublin trying to say what we should do .
i know many fisher man from wexford ,they all cant be wrong .

100 of 1000 have been spent on studies of sea trout and salmon decline , they stopped netting of the estuaries to let the seals take over .

the net men used to cull them now who will . i will gladly go to the raven any morning and whack a few hundred .

on the house .

Feargal as Luimneach

Pkiernan wrote: »

Since they are protected, I won't be going near them.

The homeowner is feeling a little intimidated by them, and by the big one in particular as it comes right up to the house, and is by all descriptions quite large and does not show too much fear of humans.

Are there any accounts of PM's going after/worrying young livestock?

The homeowner should harden up a bit, instead of wanting somebody to blow the head off the Pine Martin.

jwshooter

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The homeowner should harden up a bit, instead of wanting somebody to blow the head off the Pine Martin.

easy for you to say ,as you dont know there situation , there could be a baby in a cot or a small pet.

Feargal as Luimneach

jwshooter wrote: »

easy for you to say ,as you dont know there situation , there could be a baby in a cot or a small pet.

How many Pine martin attacks have there been on babies. I'd say none. You sound like that fool Jackie Healy-Rae. He said that a White taile eagle attacked a child a hundred years ago in Kerry.

J. Ramone

jwshooter wrote: »

thing is ....we in wexford that sea trout /salmon fish have 100s of seals eating every thing that sticks its nose up the slaney.in my opinion there should be culled and hard .

The seal thing really gets me. On the one hand they are protected so intervention is denied and on the other hand the seal sanctuary is permitted to enhance the population artificially by releasing orphans. It's the cuddly animal syndrome at it's worst. If ever there was a case for control of wild mammals causing millions of euro in damage.

I've only seen a pine marten once and they are a beautiful sight. It came trotting towards me near where I live and I too thought otter at first before I cleared my eyes. Apparantly they can tip the balance in favour of red squirrels over grey as the grey is more easily caught by the pine marten. I have both red and grey squirrels where I live but neither are overly plentiful even though the area is well wooded. It's good to see some things in balance.

LostCovey

johngalway wrote: »

Far side of the island across the bay, there's another bay leading up to a river. When the salmon are heading up, you could almost walk from one side of that bay to the other stepping on seals heads.

Did the seals get culled? No. The small two men in a currach outfits did. :rolleyes:

Very rosemantic, JohnGalway.

If there was enough salmon to support that many seals, the drift net ban wouldn't have been needed.

And the lads in the currach would have been making enough money for an upgrade to Currach 2.0.

There is so much fiction about salmon and seals - Pine Martens of the sea. Even with the ban, there is every chance we will see the end of the Atlantic salmon in the next few decades.

We can always give those currach men rifles and let them harvest those big seal herds, don't forget where they are, John. You can be ghillie.

The salmon men I know were making beer & fag money from it. They will be fine.


LostCovey

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

some one with a degree in pubs in dublin

I think I signed up for that degree. Can't remember if I graduated.

LostCovey

johngalway

LostCovey wrote: »

Very rosemantic, JohnGalway.

If there was enough salmon to support that many seals, the drift net ban wouldn't have been needed.

And the lads in the currach would have been making enough money for an upgrade to Currach 2.0.

There is so much fiction about salmon and seals - Pine Martens of the sea. Even with the ban, there is every chance we will see the end of the Atlantic salmon in the next few decades.

We can always give those currach men rifles and let them harvest those big seal herds, don't forget where they are, John. You can be ghillie.

The salmon men I know were making beer & fag money from it. They will be fine.


LostCovey

LostCovey if your intention is to come in here to discuss hunting then you're welcome, but be advised rising people via personal jibes for kicks won't be entertained.

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

i enjoy your posts lostcovey .

there is a place for all ,finding the ballance is our problem , its our job to find it .

funny you mention mounting stuff ,the natural history museum reopened this week ,one of the biggest trophy/stuffed /bone collections of animals in the world .

i must go and see it again its years since i have been ,have you been

Jaysis, your going to be a busy man. As well as balancing the Jay population with No 7s, maybe you could work on a few other re-balancing initiatives - maybe pruning the rhododendrons on the hills here in west Connemara? shovelling out the tide?

I tried the re-balancing thing, and it doesn't work. it took me a while to cop on that every time I shot a pair of magpies I created a territory for a pair of magpies. It will be the same story with Jays, only they are a lot less harmful.

Keep up the role-playing game where you are an unwaged Victorian gamekeeper in your own head if you must, but all you are doing is pointlessly killing things. And I think it's against the law too, by the way.

I was often in the Natural History Museum, really interesting place. Bit like the Imperial War Museum in London, a place where you can spend days (and I have, in both). Doesn't mean that either is a template for how we should behave in 2010. The Natural History Museum have bagged one of everything already and it's free.

I don't want to watch to share my house with bits of roadkill filled with polystyrene & coathanger wire and glass eyes glued in.

Good luck to anyone who does.

LostCovey

LostCovey

johngalway wrote: »

LostCovey if your intention is to come in here to discuss hunting then you're welcome, but be advised rising people via personal jibes for kicks won't be entertained.

No personal jibe intended, johngalway. I do not know you. It wasn't personal. I have re-read it, and can't see any personal content.

I was responding only to what you wrote in a post because I thought that what you said was absurd and risible.

Is that not allowed?

I did not take the thread off hunting and onto seal-culling, but responded to the flow of the discussion.

Apologies if I have offended you. No personal offence was intended.

LostCovey

jwshooter

so will should we turn a blind eye to vermin,seals and let nature and the greens take its course .

before some do gooder decided that the lovely fat seals were not to be shot .we had plenty of sea trout and thats just in my life time ,i fished the small river near my house as a boy there was plenty of fish ,no mink,no seals,no cormorants .

same for pine martens ,foxes ,mink, just because some one in the npws likes the look of it does not make it a national treasure .

were the top of the food change for a reason .

jwshooter

johngalway wrote: »

LostCovey if your intention is to come in here to discuss hunting then you're welcome, but be advised rising people via personal jibes for kicks won't be entertained.

i dont see it that way.

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

so will should we turn a blind eye to vermin,seals and let nature and the greens take its course .

before some do gooder decided that the lovely fat seals were not to be shot .we had plenty of sea trout and thats just in my life time ,i fished the small river near my house as a boy there was plenty of fish ,no mink,no seals,no cormorants .

same for pine martens ,foxes ,mink, just because some one in the npws likes the look of it does not make it a national treasure .

were the top of the food change for a reason .

Look, jwshooter, I don't think we are going to have some meeting of minds tonight, but I admire someone who will argue the toss, and I freely admit I don't have all the answers.

As I see it, we have had seals and salmon and sea-trout since the end of the last ice age. If the salmonids had a good year, so did the seals, they had lots of babies, they ate the fish, the fish population crashed, the seals crashed, and so it went. And both maintained a balance that has lasted millennia.

I don't believe for a second that seals have caused the current crash in stocks. They are handy they are big & obvious, you don't need a test to tell you they are in the water. They are not the only thing in the water. Drift netting, seals, water quality, afforestation, silting of spawning beds, agricultural intensification, septic tanks (I could go on) are also in the mix.

I really don't feel too strongly about someone plugging a few seals. It may make them feel better, it may allow a few more salmon and sea trout up the river. But if the river they are going up is full of phosphates from farmland, the contraceptive pill from sewage, the run-off from slurry spreading and God knows what else, I don't think you are going to achieve much.

I actually hold out some hope for these river catchment management plans, but then I am a hopeless optimist.

LostCovey

jwshooter

LostCovey wrote: »

Look, jwshooter, I don't think we are going to have some meeting of minds tonight, but I admire someone who will argue the toss, and I freely admit I don't have all the answers.

As I see it, we have had seals and salmon and sea-trout since the end of the last ice age. If the salmonids had a good year, so did the seals, they had lots of babies, they ate the fish, the fish population crashed, the seals crashed, and so it went. And both maintained a balance that has lasted millennia.

I don't believe for a second that seals have caused the current crash in stocks. They are handy they are big & obvious, you don't need a test to tell you they are in the water. They are not the only thing in the water. Drift netting, seals, water quality, afforestation, silting of spawning beds, agricultural intensification, septic tanks (I could go on) are also in the mix.

I really don't feel too strongly about someone plugging a few seals. It may make them feel better, it may allow a few more salmon and sea trout up the river. But if the river they are going up is full of phosphates from farmland, the contraceptive pill from sewage, the run-off from slurry spreading and God knows what else, I don't think you are going to achieve much.

I actually hold out some hope for these river catchment management plans, but then I am a hopeless optimist.

LostCovey

so you think our rivers are more polluted that they were 30 years ago ?.

fodda

jwshooter wrote: »

were the top of the food change for a reason .

And that is?

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

so you think our rivers are more polluted that they were 30 years ago ?.

Yes I do.

It's late, but there is plenty of data to back that up. Our rivers have been hammered.

Look at the state of the 'great western lakes' - they are a shadow of what they were. The Liffey is cleaner than it was 30 years ago (and the salmon bounced back - at least somewhat, as they did in the Thames).

Follow any of our rivers from the hill to the sea and see what happens to water quality. The "drain the Shannon" mentality that sees our river systems as a kind of foul sewer lives on.

LostCovey

Steyr243Hunter

LostCovey wrote: »

So would some irresponsible hunters of the nudge-nudge w*nk-w*nk variety.

Both enjoy legal protection in our jurisdiction.

LostCovey

So would clowns taking crap called LostCovey, but unfortunately enjoy legal protection in our jurisdiction.

LostCovey

Steyr243Hunter wrote: »

So would clowns taking crap called LostCovey, but unfortunately enjoy legal protection in our jurisdiction.

Hey I don't take no crap, dude.

LostCovey

LostCovey

fodda wrote: »

And that is?

..............debatable?

John_Rambo

jwshooter wrote: »

as you dont know there situation , there could be a baby in a cot or a small pet.

Yourself and the homeowner that has the visiting pine martins really need to talk to the guy in a pub in Dublin about nature and wildlife if you think pine martins attack people.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Eddie B wrote: »

A taxidermist will mount any roadkill! They won't mount any protected species with led in them!

It is illegal to possess even a dead protecetd species without a licence or permission. Permission must be sought even to have a roadkill Pine Marten mounted.

wolfpawnat

ome of ye need to get a professional to look at what ye call a Pine Marten, the Eurasian one is no where near the lenght some people are giving it!

As for us being Apex preditors, minus the guns and weaponry of other kinds and go piss off a grizzly! who do you think will win, I got 500 on winnie the pooh!!!!!! Humans are where we are on the ood chain purely because of evolution if the brain capacity and development. We then use this to think we are the only species worth giving a damn about.

As for the culling of seals, http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1105/seals.html they are grey seals and are a internationally protected animal. Local fishermen blame Spanish trawlers but as I was living in the area at the time I know there is no way the spanish trawlers could have

a) gotten their boats into the shallow water to the beaches where these animals breed and

b) they would not know the location of the breeding spots.

Some people think that they are above the law.

Eddie B

wolfpawnat wrote: »

ome of ye need to get a professional to look at what ye call a Pine Marten, the Eurasian one is no where near the lenght some people are giving it!

Are you one of those lads that Google everything and pretends to know what he's talking about!:p

Maybe you should listen to people that have actually seen Pine Martens up close!

wolfpawnat

Eddie B wrote: »

Are you one of those lads that Google everything and pretends to know what he's talking about!:p

Maybe you should listen to people that have actually seen Pine Martens up close!

Nope, worse. I am one of those pathetic girls who has spent every minute possible since I was a child in woods and at the sea side watching and documenting every animal I can find, so yes I have seen Pine Martens very close.:)

Eddie B

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Nope, worse. I am one of those pathetic girls who has spent every minute possible since I was a child in woods and at the sea side watching and documenting every animal I can find, so yes I have seen Pine Martens very close.:)

O.k so, well just to save an argument! can we just agree that im right ,and your not so right, when it comes to the size of a Pine Marten!

Thank you!:D

Pkiernan

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The homeowner should harden up a bit, instead of wanting somebody to blow the head off the Pine Martin.

Wow, what a friggin stupid, ill informed comment.

The homeowner is an 80 year old woman - I'll tell her to "harden up", and not worry about the giant weasel snooping around her hens.

As to wanting to blow it's head off, if you could actually be bothered to read past the end of your nose, you will see that my second post asks about live trapping and relocation.

The good side to reading posts like your one, is that I don't feel quite so dumb anymore.