Series 5, Episode 5 - "Flesh and Stone"

Daemos

So, just under an hour to go to this so might as well start a thread on it

Here are some clips from it to whet your appetite for another while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAP7cpb_cKE

Hopefully it'll live up to last week's episode, and since Moffat wrote it I expect it to live up to those expectations

doctorwhogirl

Well that got a bit full on and random at the end!?!

Rowley Birkin QC

Amy Pond, you little gem!

Daemos

Well, that ending caught me off guard, I don't know where to start with this one

Agent J

What? ... What? ..... What... What?

ixoy

Excellent episode - tense and the Weeping Angels were used very well. Some of the scariest moments since, well "Blink". Having Amy walk by them with her eyes closed was particularly well done.

We also got far more on those cracks in time and how they're no longer so random. At least their appearance now ties in directly with the story and there's a nice way to tie-in why nobody remembers certain events (like the Cyber King - although we could forgive people for forgetting that one).

I also thought Matt Smith was very good here and I'm really enjoying his Doctor. Yes, we're only five episodes in but so far he's my favourite Doctor since the revival.

As to the end - yes it might seem random but we did know Amy was obsessed with the Doctor. He was the man who was going to take her away to a fabulous new life and she waited decades for him. Her reaction, might have seemed odd, but was probably the result of all the emotion and terror and feeling she had to act now before she lost her chance.
I did like the Doctor's reaction of pushing her away (and how he was taken completely off guard as well). It'll be interesting to see how he treats Amy from now on, if their relationship will change.

Pittens

Firstly a great episode. Amy having to keep her eye shut, the way they were all picked off, the links back to episode 1. Fantastic.

Unfortunately most of the debate will be on the end scene. I have always found the demand for no attraction between the companion and a young Doctor to be utterly ridiculous. He is saving the either the Earth, another planet, or the unverse everyday. I mean that is fairly Alpha male. Also has a great pad. There's a swimming pool and a library in there somewhere.

The other option is Rory the Nursing Assistant from the village. Come on. Thats the unlikely bit. A real amy born in a small village ( as the actress was) does not date Rory's, she might date Jeffs. She is , after all, model good looking.

This is the best way to deal with the sexual tension rather than not mentioning it. She tries it on, he rebuffs, so no more mooching a la the black girl, or the Doctor falling in love ( a al Rose).

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Without fail, every Saturday, my family somehow manage to ruin Doctor Who time for me...
Thought it was epic, but will have to watch it again tonight when everyone else has f**ked off to bed... Doesn't matter how many times I explain to them that for 45 minutes every Saturday everyone needs to leave me the f**k alone, they do the opposite...
Sorry about the rant - needed to get it off my chest...
Can't wait to watch it properly later on...

Pittens

Also Moffat is a very fine writer. Not just as a story teller but a writer of lines.

"I wish I'd got to know you better",
"I think you've seen me at my best"

Killer_banana

Wow where to start with this one?

Absolutely amazing episode and far scarier than a lot of recent horror films. The Angels 'laughter' was spine tingling and them making Amy countdown for fun really showcased the cruelty of their race. The angels moving was a bit disappointing but they're the aliens that you're never meant to see move, of course it'd never live up to expectations.

The scene when the Doctor was trying to get Amy to remember was truly heartbreaking. Matt and Karen have such great chemistry (not necessarily romantically) and it really enhances their performances. Also Karen is amazingly good conveying emotion even with her eyes closed.

I'm looking forward to River's next appearance already. There were some brilliant moments between her and the Doctor and I really cannot wait to find out more about her. I still think she's his wife but that there's a some twist to it at the same time. I think it's the Doctor she killed but then again so does everyone..they didn't really try to make you think anything else.

The kiss. I knew it was coming as soon as I saw what jumper she was wearing last week (I remember the most pointless things). However I did not expect that. I loved it, much better than companions constantly pining over the Doctor who can't/won't love them (and that's coming from fan
Rose/Doctor romance before they took it too far). And loved the Doctor's clueless-ness.

The realisation of the numbers' significance was very well done too. I'm going to shut up now because I'm being disgustingly fangirly and I commend anyone who's read this whole post.

Oh just remembered, anyone notice the reference to the crack? and no I don't mean when they were actually talking about the crack.

Pittens

and no I don't mean when they were actually talking about the crack.

Intriguing.

Killer_banana

Pittens wrote: »

Intriguing.

Well it was more a reference to the first episode than to the crack. There's an 'image' hiding in the background of a scene.

Pittens

Go on, put it in spoilers.

Killer_banana

Haha yeah, dunno why I didn't in the beginning, just like power I guess. :P

I can't remember exactly what part of the scene it's in but when River and the Doctor are in the teleport room place the screen's behind River are flickering and the image of the Atraxi as seen through Amy's wall (the giant eyeball) appears several times. It's in black and white and very grainy but I'm almost sure that's what it is..then again I have been known to read too much into things.

Ridley

Pittens wrote: »

Firstly a great episode. Amy having to keep her eye shut, the way they were all picked off, the links back to episode 1. Fantastic.

I agree for the most part but I call shenanigans on her not being attacked because the Angels were distracted or something.

Pittens wrote: »

Unfortunately most of the debate will be on the end scene. I have always found the demand for no attraction between the companion and a young Doctor to be utterly ridiculous. He is saving the either the Earth, another planet, or the unverse everyday. I mean that is fairly Alpha male. Also has a great pad. There's a swimming pool and a library in there somewhere.

The other option is Rory the Nursing Assistant from the village. Come on. Thats the unlikely bit. A real amy born in a small village ( as the actress was) does not date Rory's, she might date Jeffs. She is , after all, model good looking.

I'd say Amy's interest in the Doctor is like a little girl in love with a boy band. And Jeffs probably aren't willing to dress up as childhood fantasies for the psychologically damaged.

There's a good argument somewhere in saying that the Doctor has ruined Amy's life. The first episode said it itself, Rory is the nurse that can't become a doctor.

Pittens wrote: »

This is the best way to deal with the sexual tension rather than not mentioning it. She tries it on, he rebuffs, so no more mooching a la the black girl, or the Doctor falling in love ( a al Rose).

Martha.

aidan_walsh

Killer_banana wrote: »

Haha yeah, dunno why I didn't in the beginning, just like power I guess. :P

I can't remember exactly what part of the scene it's in but when River and the Doctor are in the teleport room place the screen's behind River are flickering and the image of the Atraxi as seen through Amy's wall (the giant eyeball) appears several times. It's in black and white and very grainy but I'm almost sure that's what it is..then again I have been known to read too much into things.

I thought at first that that was what it was too but it seemed more like just a read out on a malfunctioning display.

Killer_banana

aidan_walsh wrote: »

I thought at first that that was what it was too but it seemed more like just a read out on a malfunctioning display.

Maybe. Sure I'm watching it again this evening so I'll see then.

nommm

Did anybody else notice that the doctor's coat magically appeared back on him when he was telling Amy to 'remember what he told her when she was 7'?

jimbob_jones

nommm wrote: »

Did anybody else notice that the doctor's coat magically appeared back on him when he was telling Amy to 'remember what he told her when she was 7'?

I saw that too, and I thought it was a mistake but if the Doctor did leave with River and Octavian then could it be the Doctor coming back to the event from later on in this series ?

Or is it just a mistake ?

BuffyBot

At least their appearance now ties in directly with the story and there's a nice way to tie-in why nobody remembers certain events (like the Cyber King - although we could forgive people for forgetting that one).

Couldn't help but think that was a subtle dig at the RTD era. Maybe I just want it to be.

Excellent episode, it must be said!

Gambler

CaptainNegative wrote: »

Without fail, every Saturday, my family somehow manage to ruin Doctor Who time for me...
Thought it was epic, but will have to watch it again tonight when everyone else has f**ked off to bed... Doesn't matter how many times I explain to them that for 45 minutes every Saturday everyone needs to leave me the f**k alone, they do the opposite...
Sorry about the rant - needed to get it off my chest...
Can't wait to watch it properly later on...

I always record it and watch it later rather than trying to watch it when I can be interrupted

Aoifums

BuffyBot wrote: »

Couldn't help but think that was a subtle dig at the RTD era. Maybe I just want it to be.

I thought it was an "I don't like the way you did things, so I'm going to pretend they didn't happen!" type thing.

Anway, I liked the episode. They angels' laughter bloody terrified me and them moving was annoying.
But Amy walking like she could see was cool.

Penn

Regarding the Angels moving, the only thing that really bothered me about it was how slowly they moved.

Chrussell2

I just watched episode one again on iplayer, and I noticed that when the Doctor picks Amy up, the night before her wedding. They're standing in the TARDIS and the screen is making a funny noise. As the camera does a close-up of the screen you can see the crack from amy's wall on the screen.... thought it was worth letting you know about.

mewso

I thought it was an ok episode. The scene where Amy has to pretend she can see the Angels didn't really work for me. So as long as they think you can see them they can't move. It's like some kind of parlour game then. The idea that your eyes upon them would cause them to become immobile makes more sense to me and gives the original "don't blink" idea the tension. Now it's "don't blink unless you can do so in a way that fools the Angels into being unaware you are blinking". As a two parter though overall I enjoyed it. Am I wrong in thinking people are less inclined to be negatively critical now that RTD is no longer in charge?

Doctor DooM

mewso wrote: »

As a two parter though overall I enjoyed it. Am I wrong in thinking people are less inclined to be negatively critical now that RTD is no longer in charge?

I don't think so. Victory of the Daleks got HAMMERED in alot of places.

popebenny16

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I don't think so. Victory of the Daleks got HAMMERED in alot of places.

including here, but yeah there dones seem to be an easy to insert subtext that SM is wiping away the RTD era - which is a pity.

Moffat himself said that Amys intention in the bedroom scene is nothing to do with chaste love - she just wangs a shag, and fair enough.

I liked Angel Bob a lot - so much meanace in such an innocent gentle voice. The way that the Angels have developed is very interesting. I also have to applaud the SFX and the Visual Effects as I have slated them occasionally this year. The shot of the Byzantium embededed in the Mountain is stunning. When you consider that shot on them on the beach having arrived is the first one shot for this season it just makes you appreciate the vision going on at the start of it.

I like the way 11 is developing, and Amy, when you consider this was the first one they shot you feel they have really nailed their characters. Also,at last, a properly done Series Arc (lets call it Amys Crack :rolleyes:) in that there is a recurring plot element which is actually doing something which is noticable suring the entire run and which, presumably, will be the problem The Doctor will have to sort out at the end.

River Song is not as annoying as I found her last time, which is good. I still feell that she is more of an ideal woman for Stephen Moffat than 11, but thats maybe me being too complex about it.

As a final repoiste - the Daily Mail (spit) in the TV listings page on Saturday mentioned "David Who?"

The End of Time seems a whole world away......

Memnoch99

Octavians death scene was brilliant, real emotional stuff. Wonder can we start a campaign to bring back Octavian?

I see Im not the only one who thinks River kills the Doctor at some stage.
And dont know If Im the only one but I hate River Song. Something about her just bugs me.

*EDIT* 200 posts and about 198 of them in the pro wrestling forum!

Gambler

Yeah, I have to say I think that the "act as if you can see them" and the very slow movement both kind of negated a lot of what had already been said about the angels. It smacked a bit of "let's ignore anything that isn't convenient" for my liking.. I found that worrying..

K-9

Gambler wrote: »

Yeah, I have to say I think that the "act as if you can see them" and the very slow movement both kind of negated a lot of what had already been said about the angels. It smacked a bit of "let's ignore anything that isn't convenient" for my liking.. I found that worrying..

I suppose the "act as if you can see them" makes some sense as they will perceive that she sees them. Bob was talking through his subconscious so it does add up a bit. The speed was annoying, but it was always going to be a hard one for them to overcome. It's a weakness in the story overall.

Bob was brilliant, very clever and the angels laughing and doing "it for fun" was brilliant. Octavian was very good, a memorable character and performance.

Overall the series is coming along nicely and Matt has settled in nicely. Next weeks looks good.

VicNoir

mewso wrote: »

The scene where Amy has to pretend she can see the Angels didn't really work for me. So as long as they think you can see them they can't move. It's like some kind of parlour game then. The idea that your eyes upon them would cause them to become immobile makes more sense to me and gives the original "don't blink" idea the tension. Now it's "don't blink unless you can do so in a way that fools the Angels into being unaware you are blinking".

Actually, I think I'm actually ok with this, mostly because it was kind of explained by the Doctor. The Angels were terrified of the Crack at that point, which caused their defence mechanism to kick in. I think it was meant as a kind of reflex action in this case.

Now the Crack is unprecidented, The Doctor all but says as much, so this really is a one-time thing and it scares the Angels into reflexively turning to stone.

Personally, I can't really imagine the Angels are scared of much, which I think was the point: when scary things get scared, it's not good.

So, I think the Angels are still effective and the whole 'pretend you can see them' thing only applies in this one particular circumstance, not to all Angels as a rule.

mewso

Well we can try and excuse it or make it sound as logical as we want but I still say it isn't very inconsistent. If you are given the basic information that a creature cannot move if someone can see them while it is a science fiction idea the obvious rules will start to form in your mind. If I see their back they can't move. Fine because it's the actual event of someone seeing them that stops them moving not what they think is the case. So if this is the basic rule then it doesn't matter if they are scared or having a cup of tea.

Now if they stop moving when they think they are being observed that opens a whole can of worms. I could theoretically observe a whole flock of them playing poker as long as they didn't know I was there until finally I coughed and they all froze. It's just a ridiculous idea. Yes yes someone will say why over think a sci-fi idea. Well sci-fi like any good fiction needs to be consistent.

VicNoir

To be honest, despite my defence of it, the idea did jar a bit and I would have preferred if, for example, River were to watch the Angels on a camera while Amy wandered through them (though that would have led to problems of it's own).

Doctor DooM

mewso wrote: »

Well we can try and excuse it or make it sound as logical as we want but I still say it isn't very inconsistent. If you are given the basic information that a creature cannot move if someone can see them while it is a science fiction idea the obvious rules will start to form in your mind. If I see their back they can't move. Fine because it's the actual event of someone seeing them that stops them moving not what they think is the case. So if this is the basic rule then it doesn't matter if they are scared or having a cup of tea.

Now if they stop moving when they think they are being observed that opens a whole can of worms. I could theoretically observe a whole flock of them playing poker as long as they didn't know I was there until finally I coughed and they all froze. It's just a ridiculous idea. Yes yes someone will say why over think a sci-fi idea. Well sci-fi like any good fiction needs to be consistent.

But they're not breaching the rule.

If she saw them they would HAVE to stop.

However in this one case they were stopping because they were scared witless. The difference between someone restraining you and you being scared stiff. Unless she made it obvious she was free food, they weren't going to pay her attention. It worked for me, she didn't even manage it.

Believe me I am the first to jump at Dr Who for internal inconsistency but this wasn't one for me.

That said, suspension of disbelief is a weird thing and different for everyone.

mewso

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Unless she made it obvious she was free food, they weren't going to pay her attention. It worked for me, she didn't even manage it.

Thats a completely different explanation. Was it not said in the episode essentially - make them think you can see them? I'll have to watch it again. I don't remember it being - make them think you can see them as they are so scared they won't bother with you unless you look like someone who can't see them. If the theory here is - being observed incapacitates the creature - then at what point does the creature become aware that they are not being observed - when they can move surely. Scared or not.

Ergh it was a minor irk with me that I thought I would mention since it was being so highly praised. Maybe I have gone too far on the bleedin thing now. Fine scared statues, more likely to not notice they can move.

iUseVi

Seemed consistent to me. If they are seen moving they "die" or something, and they weren't sure about whether she could see or not.

Although this begs the question, how do they know if you are looking? But I think that's getting into it a bit. I'm happy to leave it at "it's a quantum thing". Timely wimey wobbly etc.

nommm

I'm after reading some good theories regarding why when the doctor returned to talk to Amy he had a different clothes on and seemed to be acting differently.:D I really hope they turn out to be true.

Daemos

mewso wrote: »

Thats a completely different explanation. Was it not said in the episode essentially - make them think you can see them? I'll have to watch it again. I don't remember it being - make them think you can see them as they are so scared they won't bother with you unless you look like someone who can't see them.

It was the latter, he did say their instincts were on high alert so they'd freeze if they think you're looking at them, even if you're not.

I do agree it's a niggly area, because in Blink they are stone when Sally and your man are in the Tardis, so who or what is looking at them? I like to think it's a cat or something looking through the window because The Doctor said they freeze in the sight of any living thing, so yeah, if you think about it enough there are alot of holes you could spot in the logic

Even Moffat said as much in the commentary for Blink, he joked that all you have to do is stick a bucket over their heads and they're free again

Jessibelle

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

Even Moffat said as much in the commentary for Blink, he joked that all you have to do is stick a bucket over their heads and they're free again

But what if it was a some what shiny inside reflective bucket? The angel would be looking into the eyes of an image of an angel which would form an angel inside the angel which then would be looking through the eyes of an angel staring in the eyes of an angel.....:eek:


Overall I enjoyed it but not so much as the first part. As much as I don't like the Angels, I don't like the fact they may now never exist even more. Angel Bob was brilliantly done, but I didn't like the maliciousness in them now,the killing and scaring for 'kicks' annoyed me, they were more scary to me as the worlds nicest serial killers for some reason:o

Sleepy

One ship of angels does not represent the entire race. Moffat hasn't done a genocide on his best creation to date. It's one of the things I disliked about RTD's writing - he kept putting the doctor in a position where he had to wipe out entire species instead of just the immediate threat.

Jessibelle

Then, if the Angels on the ship never existed, why where they all still on the planet at the end, and not instantly elsewhere? And should Octavian not be alive again, as the Angel that killed him now never existed?



my head hurts...;)

Daemos

Jessibelle wrote: »

Then, if the Angels on the ship never existed, why where they all still on the planet at the end, and not instantly elsewhere?

Because they're time travellers, changes their perception

Jessibelle wrote: »

And should Octavian not be alive again, as the Angel that killed him now never existed?

Wibbly wobbly...

Killer_banana

Jessibelle wrote: »

should Octavian not be alive again, as the Angel that killed him now never existed?



my head hurts...;)

Octavian's body was probably swallowed by the crack as well meaning he never existed either...I'm guessing

GSPfan

This inconsistancy with the Angels episode could turn out to be a Moffat trick.

You see..... When the Doctor got grabbed by the Angel they froze and didn't kill him and he remarked "Why am I not dead?". Then The Doctor's Coat returns when he tells Amy to "Remember what I told you when you were 7".

There's a theory that the Doctor with the coat is a future version of the Doctor. So assuming it is and assuming he is in the forest waiting for his moment to talk to Amy then maybe he was the one looking at the angels and made them freeze as they grabbed the doctors coat. ????

I would love this to be true as to make this episode even more brilliant.

BaconZombie

There is a good discussion on the Doctor Who SubReddit about the doctor who tells he to remember is from the future:

About 17 minutes in, the Doctor talks to Amy about trusting him and tells her to remember.

If you look closely, he's wearing his jacket. However, his jacket was stolen by the Weeping Angels earlier and when we see him next, he doesn't have the jacket either.

Significant?

http://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/bysuj/flesh_and_stone_discussion_spoilers/c0p8pj7

BaconZombie

Different watch as well:

GSPfan wrote: »

This inconsistancy with the Angels episode could turn out to be a Moffat trick.

You see..... When the Doctor got grabbed by the Angel they froze and didn't kill him and he remarked "Why am I not dead?". Then The Doctor's Coat returns when he tells Amy to "Remember what I told you when you were 7".

There's a theory that the Doctor with the coat is a future version of the Doctor. So assuming it is and assuming he is in the forest waiting for his moment to talk to Amy then maybe he was the one looking at the angels and made them freeze as they grabbed the doctors coat. ????

I would love this to be true as to make this episode even more brilliant.

Daemos

Ah very good. And when he did come back to talk to Amy in the forest it did seem like he came out of nowhere.

If it's true and not a wardrobe mistake, Moffat is a genius

Jessibelle

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

Because they're time travellers, changes their perception

Then wouldn't that make River's plea for time off for good behaviour kind of hard? "I saved us all from the Weeping Angels?" "Er...what Angels?"

Gah! The more I think, the more this episode annoys me, recommencing suspension of disbelief in 5,4,...

popebenny16

Sleepy wrote: »

It's one of the things I disliked about RTD's writing - he kept putting the doctor in a position where he had to wipe out entire species instead of just the immediate threat.

And yet 10 gave out stink to human 10 for just doing that. But he was always sorry, and he always gave you a chance.

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

Ah very good. And when he did come back to talk to Amy in the forest it did seem like he came out of nowhere.

If it's true and not a wardrobe mistake, Moffat is a genius

the jacket would be a wardrobe malfunction but the watch is interesting as they were on location and to bring a second watch would be a deliberate script request. Unless its Matts watch and he forgot to switch it.......

sensibleken

the only thing that annoyed me was why did the clerics bring guns if they knew they wouldnt work. surely chisels would be the best armament

Ginny

sensibleken wrote: »

the only thing that annoyed me was why did the clerics bring guns if they knew they wouldnt work. surely chisels would be the best armament

Or sledgehammers...