Emergency services and confidentially clauses

mike65

Is there any such thing? or a code of practice?

The death of Gerry Ryan raises this issue as the initial source of the news appears to have come from a trigger happy member of an ambulance crew.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65662753&postcount=3
http://www.politics.ie/media/128893-gerry-ryan-found-dead-2.html#post2639566

DubMedic

Mods, I would advise against holding this discussion here to be honest.

It is not yet known from whom, or where the news came from, and to be honest..with Garda investigations underway, it is not best practice to discuss.

mike65

fair enough if thats the call but I'd prefer this not to get buried

CharlieCroker

DubMedic wrote: »

Mods, I would advise against holding this discussion here to be honest.

It is not yet known from whom, or where the news came from, and to be honest..with Garda investigations underway, it is not best practice to discuss.

+1

mike65

mike65 wrote: »

Is there any such thing? or a code of practice?

The death of Gerry Ryan raises this issue as the initial source of the news appears to have come from a trigger happy member of an ambulance crew.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65662753&postcount=3
http://www.politics.ie/media/128893-gerry-ryan-found-dead-2.html#post2639566

I will say, that if it was a member of the crew who went to the scene, they do not seem to have posted the information on the internet. They could have told a family member/colleague/etc and word has spread from there.

tricky D

On the flip side, the releasing of the news might not have breached any procedures at all. We just don't know the timeline to be able to say with any certainty whether anybody stepped over a line. Until the timeline is established, it's all just speculation.

Turner

I would have presumed that the Ambulance Crew would have to adhere to the same regulations as Gardai with regard to confidentiality and releasing certain information to third parties.

Can any paramedics on here confirm or deny this.

Terrontress

It could be someone who saw the deceased being removed from the property. Gerry Ryan was a public figure and his passing was always going to get out somehow. The op on AH may have been a bit naive with his post.

I would hope all paramedics involved will deny any knowledge and that this will be put to bed.

The very first post read like this:

Originally Posted by ash xxx
Hey, just heard Gerry Ryan is dead.

My uncle picked him up on the ambulance.

The mods have removed that piece of text, but it won't be lost.

The issue isn't that the niece/nephew posted it here.

It will be that she received a text saying Gerry Ryan was dead.

Let this be a lesson to all of you.

Patient confidentiality means you tell names to no one.

Not your siblings, or their children.

Not your parents.

Not your spouse.

No one.

Does that mean you can't talk about it? Of course not. But remember, no matter who it is, before the public knew someone, the family knew. So it's right that the family know, before the public.

sam34

it was extrememly unprofessional of the ambulance man to tell his niece anything, irrespective of whether or not the news had gone public at that stage (obviously its worse if he told her before the ryan extended family know, but still he should have kept his mouth shut)

patient confidentiality is paramount

that can only be breached in certain circumstances, and public titillation is not one of them

through my work (psychiatrist) i've treated many famous people, sports people, politicians, and even high profile murderers - while its tempting to talk about it with family/friends, you simply cannot do that

(i'm not trying to make my job sound v glamorous- it isnt- or make myself sound like some unsung hero - im not- but you just dont go discussing medical information with your family members)

MagicSean

sam34 wrote: »

it was extrememly unprofessional of the ambulance man to tell his niece anything, irrespective of whether or not the news had gone public at that stage (obviously its worse if he told her before the ryan extended family know, but still he should have kept his mouth shut)

patient confidentiality is paramount

that can only be breached in certain circumstances, and public titillation is not one of them

through my work (psychiatrist) i've treated many famous people, sports people, politicians, and even high profile murderers - while its tempting to talk about it with family/friends, you simply cannot do that

(i'm not trying to make my job sound v glamorous- it isnt- or make myself sound like some unsung hero - im not- but you just dont go discussing medical information with your family members)

While I agree it is unprofessional are you sure paramedics are bound by patient confidentiality?

Chris Peak

Terrontress wrote: »

It could be someone who saw the deceased being removed from the property. Gerry Ryan was a public figure and his passing was always going to get out somehow. The op on AH may have been a bit naive with his post.

I would hope all paramedics involved will deny any knowledge and that this will be put to bed.

You might want to re-phrase that...

sam34

k_mac wrote: »

While I agree it is unprofessional are you sure paramedics are bound by patient confidentiality?

i cant say for 100%, but i'm pretty sure they are

they are healthcare professionals after all

look at it this way, why wouldnt they be bound by it?

Terrontress

Chris Peak wrote: »

You might want to re-phrase that...

Why?

Chris Peak

Do you not see anything wrong with your previous statement?

k_mac

k_mac wrote: »

While I agree it is unprofessional are you sure paramedics are bound by patient confidentiality?

Well, going down to the most basic level of first aid, the CFR, you're breifed on the legalities of care. And patient confidentiality rules are just the same all the way down there as they are for the highest trained Advanced Paramedics.

So yes, they are.

MagicSean

sam34 wrote: »

i cant say for 100%, but i'm pretty sure they are

they are healthcare professionals after all

look at it this way, why wouldnt they be bound by it?

I presume they would have had to sign something though. Do they even take an oath of any kind?

To practice to any level, from basic level CFR to Advanced Paramedic, you have to have certification from the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council (PHECC).

Here's their guidelines on patient care. Take note of section 5.

http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Register/Code%20of%20Conduct%20&%20Ethics/Code%20of%20Professional%20Conduct%20and%20Ethics.pdf

sam34

k_mac wrote: »

I presume they would have had to sign something though. Do they even take an oath of any kind?

doubt they have to sign anything - in medicine you dont sign a confidentiality clause as such, its just part of the medical council guidelines and medical law

paraletic

of course we have rules relating to confidentiality
we all sign up to the code of conduct,

i don't know if it counts if the patient is dead, but i imagine it should.
regardless of the legal duty of confidentiality, there is an ethical duty too.

coolmoose

whilst i agree wholeheartedly with patient confidentiality, all of this is speculation at the moment. don't be so quick to pull the trigger boys and girls...since when did something appearing on the internet mean it's the truth?

like I said before, the very first post read like this:

Originally Posted by ash xxx
Hey, just heard Gerry Ryan is dead.

My uncle picked him up on the ambulance.

It since got edited out by mods, but it was too late.

It's not speculation, it's fact. All this talk of "hush up, hush up" sounds like closed shop talk to me. It's too late for that, and closing shop is wrong anyways.

MagicSean

But at that stage the story had already been broken.

k_mac

k_mac wrote: »

But at that stage the story had already been broken.

I don't believe it had, as a lot of people didn't believe the OP of that thread, and the mod edits were because of that.

Slideshowbob

Thanks for starting thread OP and questioning things, I started a later related thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055899264

MagicSean

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't believe it had, as a lot of people didn't believe the OP of that thread, and the mod edits were because of that.

Was it not already on twitter? And confirmed by another RTE presenter? Hadn't hit the main news yet but it was out there.

Terrontress

The fact is that we are in an age of communication and this sort of event will become more common. It could as easily have been the neighbour, the person walking by or whoever raised the alarm. I would not like to see the ambulance crew hounded over this, those people who will have tried in vain to do everything for him.

Those of us who read the post and were interested in it are all part of a chain of information, each with equal culpability, regardless of where it originated!

MagicSean

Terrontress wrote: »

The fact is that we are in an age of communication and this sort of event will become more common. It could as easily have been the neighbour, the person walking by or whoever raised the alarm. I would not like to see the ambulance crew hounded over this, those people who will have tried in vain to do everything for him.

Those of us who read the post and were interested in it are all part of a chain of information, each with equal culpability, regardless of where it originated!

I was more disappointed that someone would accuse the crew of texting their friends instead of helping the patient.

timmywex

Terrontress wrote: »

The fact is that we are in an age of communication and this sort of event will become more common. It could as easily have been the neighbour, the person walking by or whoever raised the alarm. I would not like to see the ambulance crew hounded over this, those people who will have tried in vain to do everything for him.

Those of us who read the post and were interested in it are all part of a chain of information, each with equal culpability, regardless of where it originated!

To be fair it could have been anyone, from as you said the neighbbors, the girlfriend, the walkers by, the builders who helped to get into the apartment, anyone. I think saying it was an ambulance crew could be bs, could be true. Its the internet, maybe the op in the other thread was saying it was a paramedic to make it a more genuine sounding story...id be pretty certain that the news would be out anyway before any medic could possibly get the news out (between gettig to the scene, assesing, tidying, clearing scene etc etc)

5500

timmywex wrote: »

, maybe the op in the other thread was saying it was a paramedic to make it a more genuine sounding story....)

Could well have been that, the link below shows a private ambulance/coroner at the scene which would suggest he wasnt "picked up in the ambulance" as the op in afterhours said.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tributes-paid-to-gerry-ryan-after-his-sudden-death-455946.html

sam34

k_mac wrote: »

But at that stage the story had already been broken.

thats irrelevant

if the op is to be believed, then her uncle, the paramedic, breached patient confidentiality

it doesnt matter if it was known worldwide that gerry ryan was dead, one of the healthcare workers looking after him went blabbing about it to his family

that sort of tittle-tattle is frankly disgusting

The Muppet

sam34 wrote: »

thats irrelevant

if the op is to be believed, then her uncle, the paramedic, breached patient confidentiality

it doesnt matter if it was known worldwide that gerry ryan was dead, one of the healthcare workers looking after him went blabbing about it to his family

that sort of tittle-tattle is frankly disgusting

I agree. I have huge respect for the people manning our emergency services but if this turns out as it appears there is gross misconduct on the part of the paramedic involved.

The Op on Boards information was so specific that it will be very easy to find out the truth if it is pursued. Comments like" I would hope all paramedics involved will deny any knowledge and that this will be put to bed. " are not very clever given the circumstances.

coolmoose

Deleted User wrote: »

like I said before, the very first post read like this:

It's not speculation, it's fact. All this talk of "hush up, hush up" sounds like closed shop talk to me. It's too late for that, and closing shop is wrong anyways.

it's not fact...it's a post by someone on the internet...you obviously assume everyone is honest and upfront on the web...to say that it's fact, well that's just plain stupid.

there's no closed shop talk, just don't jump the gun when you don't know the full story or the facts...and you don't! neither do I by the way. But the OP could be anybody, who's uncle may be a Paramedic...or may not be.

edit: As regards being "picked up" by the ambulance, it's not common practice for the HSE or DFB Ambulance Services to move remains that are not in public view (i.e. on a street etc.), this is mostly performed by undertakers. Remains would also not be moved until the Gardai were satisfied there was no foul play involved.

emtrgnmb

PHECC are the Irish EMS regulator, and maintain the register of pre-hospital care practitioners, which includes paramedics.

Quote from their Code of Professional Conduct and Ethics:

Maintain confidentiality

Each PHECC registered practitioner shall:
5.1 maintain strict professional confidentiality with all information acquired in the course of professional duties. Except
where:

o necessary to impart health/personal information in the course of duty/continuum of care and/or

o required by law.
5.2 manage with strict confidentiality all patient records, paper and electronic format

5.3 maintain strict confidentiality when conducting research.

Lets hope he heard it on the news and text her.

smokie2008

Deleted User wrote: »

The very first post read like this:


The mods have removed that piece of text, but it won't be lost.

The issue isn't that the niece/nephew posted it here.

It will be that she received a text saying Gerry Ryan was dead.

Let this be a lesson to all of you.

Patient confidentiality means you tell names to no one.

Not your siblings, or their children.

Not your parents.

Not your spouse.

No one.

Does that mean you can't talk about it? Of course not. But remember, no matter who it is, before the public knew someone, the family knew. So it's right that the family know, before the public.

I agree, thats the first thing I thought when I read the thread, like the kids probably didnt even know yet here is an ambulance crews niece/nephew on borads saying he's dead. Not right!!!

Atlantic Dawn

smokie2008 wrote: »

I agree, thats the first thing I thought when I read the thread, like the kids probably didnt even know yet here is an ambulance crews niece/nephew on borads saying he's dead. Not right!!!

Yes and it's going to hit the fan when a simplistic investigation will ask for records from the paramedics mobile phones and if it was a text they sent they are finished as the record will be held and if a call was made it will cloud suspicion over them.

bravestar

Deleted User wrote: »

like I said before, the very first post read like this:


It since got edited out by mods, but it was too late.

It's not speculation, it's fact. All this talk of "hush up, hush up" sounds like closed shop talk to me. It's too late for that, and closing shop is wrong anyways.

While I have not read the original post, the snippet that you posted, if you actually look at what was said, they stated that Gerry Ryan was dead and that their Uncle picked him up in an ambulance. There is no mention that the poster's Uncle told the poster that Gerry Ryan was dead.

Terrontress

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes and it's going to hit the fan when a simplistic investigation will ask for records from the paramedics mobile phones and if it was a text they sent they are finished as the record will be held and if a call was made it will cloud suspicion over them.

Anyone whose phone has sent a text to a mobile whose owner posts on boards using the name ash xxx will be fired. Is that what you propose?

Firstly, I'd be surprised if they are able to take his phone records and secondly, tying back a mobile number to a boards poster will be impossible. If this is to be a major issue I'm sure he'll delete his sent items. Or one of them.

Paulzx

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes and it's going to hit the fan when a simplistic investigation will ask for records from the paramedics mobile phones and if it was a text they sent they are finished as the record will be held and if a call was made it will cloud suspicion over them.

Phecc have no power to obtain phone records of private individuals. The gardai will have no cause to as no laws that i'm aware of have been broken.

There is a big difference between a code of conduct and criminal law.


To say someone is "finished" is a complete over hyping of the situation.

If someone has acted unappropriately it is obvious that they were foolish and wrong. To start expecting phone records to be obtained is to equate their actions to some sort of gangland murder.

coolmoose

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

when a simplistic investigation will ask for records from the paramedics mobile phones

a simplistic investigation involving phone records? :eek: this isn't CSI now at all, it's a huge legal process to get phone records as part of an investigation!

this thread is typical of the lynch mob mentality that's prevalent on boards these days. none of you know ANYTHING about the incident, none of you know ANYTHING about the OP, yet you accept her post as 100% the truth.

quite frankly the willingness of posters here to accept the OPs post as "fact" is utterly astounding...not everything you read on the internet is true! :rolleyes:

anyway, back to your pitchforks!

FromwhereI

Paramedics are bound by strict rules of confidientality same as all health care professionals and would be in huge trouble for sending a text like that.
The news reports said he was 'picked up' by the coroners ambulance. It's a van you see driving around Dublin with green lights.
I don't know who mans that. All their patients are dead so they are not paramedics.

paraletic

FromwhereI wrote: »

Paramedics are bound by strict rules of confidientality same as all health care professionals and would be in huge trouble for sending a text like that.
The news reports said he was 'picked up' by the coroners ambulance. It's a van you see driving around Dublin with green lights.
I don't know who mans that. All their patients are dead so they are not paramedics.

those vans are driven by undertakers (i think), hopefully then its a bit of a misunderstanding (and no healthcare worker blabbed first) caused by labeling a hearse as an ambulance!

great thread though, interesting moral descusion!:D

Hooch

Right guys....no more talk about G Ryans incident. Next one is on a direct infraction and then temp ban. Its an on going incident and the poor man hasnt been laid to rest yet.

(as one last opinion if the Paramedic did blab I hope hes dragged before the PHECC fitness to practice committee!!)

This thread can continue as it is a good topic. I however reserve the right to delete posts at a later stage that have already been posted in regards G Ryan.

All incidents should be "made up" ones;)