Should Irish be mandatory at second level?

hacx

Title says all.
Post your views on the subject and tell us some of your experiencs of learning Irish in the secondary school.

petes

No. I haven't used it since the leaving cert. Even when I repeated the leaving I could drop Irish.

cson

A language should be mandatory if anything.

Leeg17

'Twas ****, hated it really, think most people forget 99% of Irish after they leave school, besides the 'aul "Ciúnis Bothar Cailín Bainne" for the roide

biko

What do YOU think OP?
Or is this a survey or maybe an article in the budding?

From AH charter "If you do start a thread, be prepared to contribute to it yourself, especially if you expect others to do so"

edit: on reflection I may have come across a bit antagonistic, it's just courtesy to offer your own opinion when asking for others'.

NothingMan

Concentrating on a useful international language or another practical subject would be much more useful. I like Ireland and all, but it's a dying language basically unknown outside increasingly smaller areas of the west. Nobody I know is in anyway proficient in Irish and I think it really just acts to lower your over all leaving cert score.

Unlike english & maths it has no essential applications and should definitely be an option. But I believe if it was an option it would be seldom chosen and probably dropped due to lack of interest in many schools.

You can be as patriotic as you like, we're an english speaking country now, for whatever ill deeds were done to us over 800 years, this is how we are now and english is our real national language.

Riamfada

No, forcing people to learn a language rather than encouraging people to learn it creates a dislike for the language and ultimately does it more damage. But for some reason Irish speakers dont see it like that. Must be the Irish shortsighted thing.

History has shown that people tend to respond more positively to something when it is not forced upon them. ie: Islam

cson

biko wrote: »

What do YOU think OP?
Or is this a survey or maybe an article in the budding?

From AH charter "If you do start a thread, be prepared to contribute to it yourself, especially if you expect others to do so"

A Sunday Independent survey shows 107.89% of people do not want Irish to be mandatory in the Leaving Cert. A source close to the Department of Education says 'Twas ****, hated it really, think most people forget 99% of Irish after they leave school, besides the 'aul "Ciúnis Bothar Cailín Bainne" for the roide'.

dlofnep

Grimes wrote: »

No, forcing people to learn a language rather than encouraging people to learn it creates a dislike for the language and ultimately does it more damage. But for some reason Irish speakers dont see it like that. Must be the Irish shortsighted thing.

Speak for yourself. I'm an Irish speaker, and I see the merit in optional Irish for the leaving cert. I'm more interested in the Irish curriculum being revamped to focus on spoken Irish, rather than wasting their time of poetry.

When the population of Ireland has a firm grasp of the Irish language, then we can worry about poetry. But right now - the only priority should be to at least allow children to have the ability to speak it.

Riamfada

dlofnep wrote: »

When the population of Ireland has a firm grasp of the Irish language, then we can worry about poetry. But right now - the only priority should be to at least allow children to have the ability to speak it.

So lets give it another 70 years of forced Irish classes and hope a couple pick it up? How exactly do you plan on revamping how the language is thought? The population will never have a firm grasp of Irish because their heritage is the English language.

(we have had this argument before I believe and your unwavering nationalism and my love of mocking unwavering nationalists has resulted in ....)

Stinicker

Spanish, German, French or Chinese are far more important languages, when I was in school I refused to take Irish in Primary and this followed me onto Secondary School where I was subsequently also exempted. I used to sit in the Irish class doing my homework for the other subjects or else taking a nap!

dlofnep

Grimes wrote: »

So lets give it another 70 years of forced Irish classes and hope a couple pick it up? How exactly do you plan on revamping the language?

Forced is an emotive word. If you read my post, you'd see that I'm not against optional Irish for the leaving cert. I do however feel that it should be a core subject up until the junior cert however.

How do I plan on revamping the language? That's a good question, and allow me to answer it. But forgive first if I explain how I came to my conclusion.

Like most on this thread (and the 20 odd more pages of people who post on it) - I studied Irish all throughout school, but was left with an inability to speak Irish and a distaste for the Irish curriculum. 3 years ago, I wanted to learn the language. But I knew that I couldn't go down the class-route to learn it, as it never worked for me.

So I checked my local community for an Irish conversational group to focus on spoken Irish, as I felt that was the most important part of any language. After weeks of searching, I found none - so I started my own, and we've been going strong ever since.

In that time I learned one thing - if you want to learn the Irish language, you have to speak it - routinely. Books can only teach you so much, but they do not teach you how to use what you learn and construct it in a meaningful sentence. Nor do they prepare you for people saying things in different ways.

So what's my proposal? For the Irish classes (I believe there is still 4 a week) to be divided into two. One for grammar and such, and the other for purely spoken Irish.

Encourage activity between the students - give them a topic of conversation and allow them to discuss it. Get the teacher to provoke thought by asking questions. Have round tables between groups of 5 students, where they ask each other questions and then tell the class what they have learned about their classmates.

If I can learn the Irish language in 3 years to a reasonable level by just speaking it, then children can learn it in class also.

RichTea

I think that Irish, as it's own subject, should not be mandatory. Taking a second language should be mandatory. Whether that be Irish, German, French, Spanish, Italian or whatever, a lot of secondary school students in my old school at least weren't told when they enrolled that they would need a foreign language for University. This came back to bite a lot of them a couple of years down the road.

DarkJager

Irish shouldn't be mandatory, it should be a choice for people to learn if they want to. Most students will see it for what it is, a language that you will never even speak a word of outside of school. Its unfortunate but its true.

I understand the passion some people feel for the language and their efforts to keep it alive, but forcing it down peoples throats isn't going to prolong its lifespan. And the reality is that nobody outside of the designated gaeltacht areas has any need for it, its simply a redundant language in modern times.

Dravokivich

I say no it should not be mandatory... I learned more French in school then I did Irish...

I don't even know what "Ciúnis Bothar Cailín Bainne" means....

PJTierney

Shouldn't be mandatory. Having it as an option will guarantee that people who are genuinely interested will take it up, and exam papers won't be dumbed down for those of us who don't bother taking the subject seriously.

Agricola

Yes, but in a changed format. Id like to see Irish taught the way I was taught French when I started secondary. Lots of emphasis on everyday usage, more relevant lessons. Also maybe spending first year recapping on grammar / verb conjugation. I know all that stuffs supposedly covered in primary but in all honesty me and most people who I started secondary with, had a very shaky understanding of it. To this day I can still recall the form of the past present and future tense for all the important verbs in French, but would'nt have a clue when it comes to Irish.

There is definitely a kind of romanticized, De Valera, dancing at the crossroads type thing going on with the Irish curriculum. At least there was in my time. (94 -99) I just remember spending 5 years being bored to death with tedious poetry.

t4k30

You should be able to choose it along with other subjects.

hacx

Personally, I'd be in favour of splitting irish into two subjects:
Everyday Irish (Conversational) and Irish Culture/Liturature (Books, poems).
Then make Conversational Irish mandatory.

Mike 1972

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't even know what "Ciúnis Bothar Cailín Bainne" means....

I could look it up on Google translate but I really couldnt be arsed

hypersquirrel

Irish should be mandatory at Junior Cert level but when it gets to Leaving Cert the students should be taking subjects relevant to what they want to do after school. If I'm going to do a degree in science what use is Irish. All it does is distract from time that could be spent studying something more practical like chemistry.

mahamageehad

Again I'm going with mandatory until Junior Cert with an emphasis on speaking it and then optional for Leaving Cert with the course changed (drop the poems!!) to make it more appealing

RMD

I had an awful education in Irish through primary, so when I entered secondary it was assumed I'd have a good grasp on the language, completely wrong.

I've been learning Irish since I was 4, I've been learning French since I was 12, the fact that my French is totally superior to my level of Irish demonstrates how poorly they teach that subject. They need to treat it as a second language or other make all primary schools gael scoils.

I'd prefer to see all primary schools made gael scoils tbh, as it would achieve fluency nearly by 12.

owenc

Leeg17 wrote: »

'Twas ****, hated it really, think most people forget 99% of Irish after they leave school, besides the 'aul "Ciúnis Bothar Cailín Bainne" for the roide

well here i forget spanish after the exams.. straight away and when we all come back in summer everyone has forgotten everything! It should be a choice, when you choose your gcses, though theyd probably make you learn it like they make you learn re!! ok god.. so boring!

owenc

Stinicker wrote: »

Spanish, German, French or Chinese are far more important languages, when I was in school I refused to take Irish in Primary and this followed me onto Secondary School where I was subsequently also exempted. I used to sit in the Irish class doing my homework for the other subjects or else taking a nap!

Yes spanish great, its so similar to all the other european langauges as well so it would be easier.. and i don't think irish is anything similar as far as i've heard?

PeterIanStaker

I think Irish, along with maths, is taught badly in schools.

There should be more emphasis on spoken everyday Irish and less of the grammar, just the basics, which quite frankly, is an obstacle to second - level students and just bored the sh!t out of me, even though I got a B+ in LC Higher Level.

sron

It should be, but it should be taught better.

As the the subject of European languages, it needn't be either/or. Irish and another language should be mandatory up to LC with the option of more.

owenc

sron wrote: »

It should be, but it should be taught better.

As the the subject of European languages, it needn't be either/or. Irish and another language should be mandatory up to LC with the option of more.

But why! its only going to be useful in this country area... and i don't think anyone would really want to learn it anyway.

Midnight_EG

cson wrote: »

A Sunday Independent survey shows 107.89% of people do not want Irish to be mandatory in the Leaving Cert. A source close to the Department of Education says 'Twas ****, hated it really, think most people forget 99% of Irish after they leave school, besides the 'aul "Ciúnis Bothar Cailín Bainne" for the roide'.

Ehm......WHAT?!

alex73

Irish is well worth learning. Have to learn any 2nd lauguage is an asset. Pity its not used more. but its worth learning.

Mr Benevolent

Even the third level education system doesn't think Irish is necessary. If you like the language, fine. If you don't, you should be allowed to learn something more useful/interesting instead.

Hank_Jones

It should certainly be mandatory. Regardless of how little people use it, it is still our national language and is a major part of our heritage.
I haven't used leaving cert maths since I left school, does that mean I should have been able to drop that?
I do think that they should be pushing foreign languages more to the fore though.
Really wish I was fluent in French at this stage, or at least some foreign language,
that's the problem with speaking English, you can get away with not having to learn any other language.

Seaneh

It should not be thought in primary schools (except gaelscoils) at all.

It should be introduced at secondary level but only as an option. It should be thought conversationally until junior cert and then in the last two years introduce the grammar etc.

When you learn to speak any language you learn it quicker when you speak it first before getting caught up in grammatical structures.

SomeFool

I think one language (with english) of the students choice would be a better system than forcing an unused language on uninterested pupils. Being able to speak a major european language is a far greater asset to somebody leaving school and looking for a job than a background in Irish is.

whadabouchasir

IMO if it was made optional then feck all people would do it.this year i did chemistry through Irish as one of my modules in college.Of the few hundred people that could have done it less than ten actually sat an exam in it.Even less did physics through Irish.

eightyfish

Absoultely hated being forced to learn useless Irish for the leaving. I wanted to go to UCD and to do an IT degree at the time (1999), and you had to have pass Irish as a minimum. To study computers FFS!

Anyway, I achieved a good leaving cert apart from an awful Irish result. I ended up waiting until I was a mature student to go to college. The experience has made me detest the Irish language deep in my bones. If it wasn't compulsory, I probably wouldn't feel this way.

Noreen1

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't even know what "Ciúnis Bothar Cailín Bainne" means....

It means Silence Road Girl Milk. :D
On the other hand, you scored 75% for spelling.

I think it should remain compulsory up to Junior cert level. I also think that the literature should be dropped entirely. Like most others who support Irish, I believe the focus needs to be on conversational Irish. When you can speak a language, the grammar comes naturally.

I actually had a conversation with someone, mainly through Irish, a couple of weeks ago. What made this conversation unusual was the fact that this man moved to the area, and didn't speak a word of Irish.
He decided to learn Irish, persuaded some native speakers with whom he was working to speak to him only in Irish, and was capable of having a conversation through Irish, with a native speaker, in a matter of months!

It can be done!

Noreen

Creed Bratton

I think the government is trying to encourage the improvement of spoken Irish because the orals for the Leaving Cert are going to be worth 40% of the test from next year which is good compared to the 15% it is now.

Fukuyama

dlofnep wrote: »

Speak for yourself. I'm an Irish speaker, and I see the merit in optional Irish for the leaving cert. I'm more interested in the Irish curriculum being revamped to focus on spoken Irish, rather than wasting their time of poetry.

When the population of Ireland has a firm grasp of the Irish language, then we can worry about poetry. But right now - the only priority should be to at least allow children to have the ability to speak it.

What he said.

Chuchoter

It should be mandatory to learn a language of some kind, but bonus points should be given if you take honours Irish. I'm not saying this because I hate Irish either, I'm actually pretty good, I just think its stupid most of class time is taken up by people who aren't in the slightest bit interested in learning it.

Riddle101

Irish should be just as mandatory as English. It is after all our native language. You could make arguments about it, but I still think it should be mandatory. You wouldn't see any other country putting little emphasis on their language.

LpPepper

I think it should be optional . Im in 3rd year atm and the course and exams are layed out as if Irish is your main language , even though its not . Like in the papers they have questions on poems and stories like english where they should make it like german and french with comprehensions and letters and notes.

It shouldnt be compulsary and should be optional as its just expected you speaker fluent irish

Thats what i think anyway being a current JC student

Risteard

I think it should be mandatory until Junior Cert and that the course should all be about grammar and oral. For the leaving cert it should be optional.

Noreen1

Sitec wrote: »

I think they should have a choice between German, French or Irish. That way everyone wins. You can still do Irish if you want too.

If the choice were between German, French, or Irish, it would only serve to write Irish off entirely as an option for those considering third level education, since most (if not all?) colleges have a foreign language at leaving cert level as an entry requirement.

Noreen

PeterIanStaker

Riddle101 wrote: »

You wouldn't see any other country putting little emphasis on their language.

Very few countries are encouraged to hate themselves by their own media as much as we are.

Mike 1972

Riddle101 wrote: »

Irish should be just as mandatory as English. It is after all our native language.

No its not !

DingChavez

Irish should be mandatory but they should change the curriculum so its all spoken.

I remember Irish in school was just learning off vocalubary and memorising essays or ****ty poems so you can pass the test. It was a load of crap. It annoys me how badly its taught.

kuntboy

Every Irish teacher I ever had was a complete psycho who would fly into a crazed rage when returning bad homework. They had no patience and couldn't understand why everyone else didn't love the language and all the gaelgorie "oirish" bo11ox that went with it. What a waste of time. How dare you waste our time with your jingoistic political agenda. How fukcing dare you. Other countries laugh at us, as usual.

Noreen1

Mike 1972 wrote: »

No its not !

Why ever not?

Noreen

Jim236

Definitely, its our native language and the 1st official language of the country. Its a huge part of our identity and even though most people don't speak it as their first language, we see it every day around us in sport, the media etc.

Its one of the few things that separates us from our British neighbours and makes us different and we should try retain it as much as possible and not let it slip away.

But that said, the way the language is being taught needs to completely change. They need to separate Irish into 2 subjects - Oral and written Irish, and Irish literature. Its stupid that students are expected to learn the same level of literature as Gaeilge as they are in English. The oral and written Irish subject should then be mandatory, and will put a large emphasis on actually speaking the language and knowing how to write it. Students can then take up Irish literature as an optional subject if they want.

Mike 1972

Because (like most people born in Ireland) English is my native language.