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Why foreign retailers?

  • 28-04-2010 11:15pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47


    Why do I keep seeing so many Irish musos talking about bying from foreign retailers? Now I know I might be opening a can of worms here, but as an Irish person and an Irish musician, should we not be keeping the biz and jobs at home?


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Demeyes


    I'll buy wherever I can get a good deal and that's most often abroad, if the Irish stores want my money they'd have to deserve it and most don't. I only get strings and picks here most of the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭8k2q1gfcz9s5d4


    Taxpayer wrote: »
    Why do I keep seeing so many Irish musos talking about bying from foreign retailers? Now I know I might be opening a can of worms here, but as an Irish person and an Irish musician, should we not be keeping the biz and jobs at home?

    im all for supporting my local shop, get a very good service there. However for some items its a lot cheaper to buy on thomann. I prefer going to xmusic rather than thomann if i cant source something locally, then again i just like going to xmusic as its like being a kid in a candy store!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    im all for supporting my local shop, get a very good service there. However for some items its a lot cheaper to buy on thomann. I prefer going to xmusic rather than thomann if i cant source something locally, then again i just like going to xmusic as its like being a kid in a candy store!

    Do you mean everything is cheaper with Thomann or just bigger stuff?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭Music-and-booze


    When im buying stuff its either off ebay or thomann, barely even crosses my mind to go into a shop, why should customers feel bad about wanting value for their money? i know pretty much everything is overpriced in ireland, but when you have a look on the internet its pretty clear that musical equipment and services here are absolutely atrociously overpriced, they don't deserve our money.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    Demeyes wrote: »
    I'll buy wherever I can get a good deal and that's most often abroad, if the Irish stores want my money they'd have to deserve it and most don't. I only get strings and picks here most of the time.

    Really? I've been making an effort to shop at home recently - not just with instruments etc.In some cases it's cheaper to buy in Ireland. You usually have to ask for a discount though. I noticed if you tell them the price on Thomann, they try to match it. In the past I've been asked to leave the store for mentioning Thomann....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Demeyes


    Taxpayer wrote: »
    Really? I've been making an effort to shop at home recently - not just with instruments etc.In some cases it's cheaper to buy in Ireland. You usually have to ask for a discount though. I noticed if you tell them the price on Thomann, they try to match it. In the past I've been asked to leave the store for mentioning Thomann....
    Why should I ask them for a reduction, they should be selling it at that price already or giving me superior service to justify the price increase.
    Shops here generally have poor selection on stuff here anyway so they have to order things in if I want something specific from them, that takes a few days but in those same few days I could have thomann deliver to my door and likely for less.
    I know in times like this it helps to support our economy but I believe you have to earn my business and compete with the internet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    When im buying stuff its either off ebay or thomann, barely even crosses my mind to go into a shop, why should customers feel bad about wanting value for their money? i know pretty much everything is overpriced in ireland, but when you have a look on the internet its pretty clear that musical equipment and services here are absolutely atrociously overpriced, they don't deserve our money.

    Hey I' not trying to make anyone feel bad, I voted no to the Lisbon treaty though! I just think we shoud support the Irish music industry. I work in a similar but unrelated business, and I could lose my job because of internet shopping. Half the time the customers don't even check our prices. I have spent hours demonstrating gear and they buy from the UK- and I work on commission....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    I've never bought anything online: I'm still a bricks and mortar guy. I need to see, feel, play, measure, smell what I want.

    The only use I have for Thomann is telling me what other people are paying for it. But then, I've got almost everything I need, so it's pure aspirational.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 144 ✭✭Mark2229


    I like to buy online because as people have said its cheaper but there is also a much bigger selection of things to be found on the likes of Thomann that you just cant find here. I would buy picks, strings, straps and that sort of stuff here though :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    Demeyes wrote: »
    Why should I ask them for a reduction, they should be selling it at that price already or giving me superior service to justify the price increase.
    Shops here generally have poor selection on stuff here anyway so they have to order things in if I want something specific from them, that takes a few days but in those same few days I could have thomann deliver to my door and likely for less.
    I know in times like this it helps to support our economy but I believe you have to earn my business and compete with the internet.

    Wow, well I've never had the problems you have man... but I have a choice of shops. I recently had to return an amp and it was replaced in 2 days, I got an apology call from the distributor and a free T shirt- and it was cheaper than Thomann....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    I'll buy where it's cheapest. If i can get it close enough to the online price for something i'd buy in a shop here but if not i would buy online. And also buying online is the only option if you're buying not so well known manufacturers like Bacchus, Edwards, Toka...to name but a few.
    I've bought 6 guitars, 2 amps and probably around 3/4 effects pedals online, and saved a tonne doing so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    I've never bought anything online: I'm still a bricks and mortar guy. I need to see, feel, play, measure, smell what I want.

    The only use I have for Thomann is telling me what other people are paying for it. But then, I've got almost everything I need, so it's pure aspirational.[/Q

    Yeah some things are organic. I couldn;t imagine buying a guitar without playing it first....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    Mark2229 wrote: »
    I like to buy online because as people have said its cheaper but there is also a much bigger selection of things to be found on the likes of Thomann that you just cant find here. I would buy picks, strings, straps and that sort of stuff here though :)


    Hey, before you buy next time- give them a shot........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    I've given up buying new along time ago,second hand/ebay for me mostly
    I've also started building my own pedals from scratch!

    I also was working in a simular field,not exactly the same
    I was a manager so I knew exactly what we were charging and what stuff cost
    profit margins on big items would be 11-16% accessories alot higher (but they don't really pay the bills)

    people were regularly quoting web prices BELOW our COST price! madness!!

    and unfortunately the suppliers mostly stood idly by and did nothing

    I've come to the conclusion that for them,it's far easier to supply to only 3-4 massive European online warehouse retailers so they don't want the hassle of small retailers at all

    soon they'll all be gone :mad::(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    Flar play to ya. I wish could do that.
    That's what it's like in my business. The rent is mental and tax is higher than the rest of Europe but what hope have we got when people keep calling us rip offs and voting for FF?
    We had to let three people go last week- we cant sustain the business because we still have to keep paying the overheads and offering sale prices because of German and UK discounters- who only employ a handul of people! I just get sad about Irish Music shops because that's part of our culture. I hope we're all wrong and they manage to survive or we'll all be writing songs in german before we know it... where we will try out gear then??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭rcaz


    I don't mind paying a bit extra to keep a proper shop going, but a lot of shops give off the impression that they don't want your business. I know it used to be a lot worse with respect to customer service, but a lot of places still leave a lot to be desired. I work in a shop (off license), and the idea of making a customer feel even the slightest bit awkward in a shop is totally incomprehensible to me, let alone some of the customer service I've been on the receiving end of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    Yeah well that's ****ty. I can't stand arrogant sales people. But as I said earlier, I'm lucky because I've a good choice. I have to say though, I've never had a problem with a shop in Dublin- well there was one- Danfay, wouldn't let you touch anything -but they're closed down now, not surprisingly....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Demeyes


    Taxpayer wrote: »
    Wow, well I've never had the problems you have man... but I have a choice of shops. I recently had to return an amp and it was replaced in 2 days, I got an apology call from the distributor and a free T shirt- and it was cheaper than Thomann....
    I have a good choice of shops and I do buy things from one of them because they treat me well but I don't go out there to buy a new guitar - just strings/straps and picks.
    Taxpayer wrote: »
    Hey, before you buy next time- give them a shot........
    My local shops don't stock a single electric guitar that I would be interested in buying and not a single amp I would buy either.

    I don't have any problem with shops but there is a very good used market right now for buyers and add the online competition and it would be hard for shops to try and run their shops the same way they have for years. I think most are beginning to compete more now and offer better prices though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    Demeyes wrote: »
    I have a good choice of shops and I do buy things from one of them because they treat me well but I don't go out there to buy a new guitar - just strings/straps and picks.

    I'm with El Pr0n on this- wild horses couldn't make me buy a guitar I haven't felt up- no way- not unless I needed it to smash up.

    My local shops don't stock a single electric guitar that I would be interested in buying and not a single amp I would buy either.

    What are you looking for? I reckon between all the shops in Dublin they pretty much have most brands and could probably get you specific models. If it's that niche it probably costs a fortune to stock anyway. I 've made too many expensive mistakes in the past, I'll buy nothing until I've tried it.

    I don't have any problem with shops but there is a very good used market right now for buyers and add the online competition and it would be hard for shops to try and run their shops the same way they have for years. I think most are beginning to compete more now and offer better prices though.

    I think so and for the sake of Irish stores and the industry here in general, I hope so...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Adyx


    There's one musical instrument shop here in Waterford. They stock only D'Addario .45 bass strings. (Occasionally I've also seen Ernie Balls in there). And they're a rip-off as well.

    I'm not too worried about local prices as they do sometimes try to price-match with Thomann, but the lack of selection (and ignorance of staff) is very off-putting.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    Adyx wrote: »
    There's one musical instrument shop here in Waterford. They stock only D'Addario .45 bass strings. (Occasionally I've also seen Ernie Balls in there). And they're a rip-off as well.

    I'm not too worried about local prices as they do sometimes try to price-match with Thomann, but the lack of selection (and ignorance of staff) is very off-putting.

    You should say something- that's not good enough of they want your business. I wouldn't blame you in the slightest for buying online.
    I know Waltons and X Music have online stores- you should try one of them, then you're still buying from an Irish shop.... John at BSOM has Elixirs- not cheap but deadly and stay bright for ages.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Adyx


    Taxpayer wrote: »
    You should say something- that's not good enough of they want your business. I wouldn't blame you in the slightest for buying online.
    I know Waltons and X Music have online stores- you should try one of them, then you're still buying from an Irish shop.... John at BSOM has Elixirs- not cheap but deadly and stay bright for ages.

    Ah but I don't use Ernie Ball strings either :pac: Rotosounds/DR please!

    I have given the local shop a lot of business too. We got our PA, mics, leads, lights etc off them. Our drummer gets most of his kit there too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,044 ✭✭✭Gaspode


    Price, plain and simple. Why pay €200 for something here when it can be purchased for €130 online?
    Having said that, I do regularly go to shops in Dublin and beyond to check out their gear, and if there's something I like I'll buy it. for a guitar or other instrument you need to feel it and play it to be sure, but for amps, lead, mikes, etc online is the way to go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭Companero


    Or something like that, then I'd keep it in Ireland, but more often than not it's a question of the Irish price being nearly 2 x the Thomann one. Simply not worth it.

    As well as this , Dublin shops are almost always out of stock of what Im looking for. I already have as many guitars and amps as I need, so Im normally looking for something wierd: A double bass pickup or some such item, and Ive generally found that as far as supply goes, Irish shops are like that General Store in "O Brother Where Art Thou" - "I can order it in for ya from the mainland, it'll take about two weeks."

    "Well aint this place a geographical oddity, two weeks from everywhere!"

    Not to mention that Irish stores need to take a hint from American ones: Allow your customers to make you an offer, its not an insult, it's business.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,277 ✭✭✭evolutionqy7


    Taxpayer wrote: »
    Hey I' not trying to make anyone feel bad, I voted no to the Lisbon treaty though! I just think we shoud support the Irish music industry. I work in a similar but unrelated business, and I could lose my job because of internet shopping. Half the time the customers don't even check our prices. I have spent hours demonstrating gear and they buy from the UK- and I work on commission....
    thats cause most shops have a terrible selection! i go on the internet its cheaper and it has a bigger variety!

    i go into a shop...20 albums with the same songs...seriously wtf

    otherwise when i was looking to get my PA for djing one shop wanted to charge me 2000 for the whole lot...i go on ebay get them half as cheap and delivered to my door!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    two guitars that I have bought abroad - (im a lefty by the way

    - American Fender Precision - this was the older model pre 2008, because of it being the older a shop in new york sold it to me for 500 euro. The same guitar has been hanging by its neck in musicmaker for two years - price €1645.

    - Musicman Stingray - if I went into a shop in dublin and asked for a left handed stingray I would be laughed at. I have never seen one in this country, and if it was here you would be talking €2200 euro easily. its only €1500 from the UK.

    So from two guitars bought abroad I saved myself €1800. Its common sense really. I do buy all my accessories here. A big thing that X-Music made the mistake on was not havign either the storage or capital to buy up 150 fenders instead of 10..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Strings.ie


    As an Irish based retailer I'll chip in on this one.

    Music instrument retailers in past (pre internet) were used to 50% plus mark ups.
    Many of the folks who have done this all their lives have found it difficult to come to terms with the reality of the current industry. Some folks simply refuse to compete and that is why some shops in Ireland are expensive. Their costs of running the business have not gone down 20-30% so why should their income?

    On the other hand many of us realise the situation and have tried to compete.
    Our (strings.ie) mark-ups range from under 10% up to 25% and sometimes 30%. I can think of only a handful of items we could get 50% on and get away with it.

    The problem is, the consumer does not understand the realities of doing business in Ireland and instantly labels us a rip-off.

    I occasionally get emails from customers about all this and I always try to explain the situation. In the old business model the manufacturer sets the price they sell to the distributors (wholesaler). The distributors then adds their bit + taxes and sells to the retailer. The retailer then adds his bit + taxes and that is the price the customer pays.

    This should mean that all retailers are buying at the same (ish) price and any variation in the selling prices are down the the retailer.

    Then came the internet and Thomann/similar. Thomann figured out that if they could sell enougth of something at 10% it was a viable business move. This is essentially known as under selling the product and devaluing its market value. While this is great for Thomann (the Tesco of M.I if you like) its bad news for all the small guys who now have their customers asking them to match Thomann's prices without anywhere near the volume of sales.
    Thomann's next move was the swing their new found weight around and cut out the distributor and buy direct from the manufacturer and demand better prices based on the sheer amount they were able to shift.

    We now see a clear distinction between some manufactures who have prostituted themselves to Thomann and others that have stood by their long term customer base.

    There are products Thomann sell cheaper than we can buy them trade in Ireland. But on the other hand, brands like Ernie Ball who remained loyal to the customer base have set pricing and that's that. This means Thomann buy at the same price as we do and in this situation you will see we (strings.ie) are cheaper than Thomann for Ernie Ball electric strings.

    That is the reality with the larger shops like Thomann.

    Another area that really winds me up in this country is taxation. Vat is 21%. That instantly puts us as a 3.5% disadvantage to UK retailers. At the very least they should match it to the UK, our biggest trading partner.

    Another one I often get is customers asking us to match prices from the US. Everything is cheaper in the US. The fact that petrol is a lot cheaper has large factor on manufacturing costs all the way through the chain. They also don't have Vat so that is 21% instantly knocked off not to mention the import duty. Then on top of all this manufacturers set the pricing geographically so US retailers can buy much cheaper than E.U based retailers.
    It is simply not a fair playing field.

    Again the government in Ireland does not help. I believe most parcels imported to Ireland from outside the E.U with a declared value of under €50 (maybe higher) go through the system without revenue being collected. While great for the consumer its just not fair for the retailer based in Ireland not to mention the millions lost in revenue.

    Our business generates quite a lot of tax for the Irish government and we get nothing in return.
    It may be great to buy your stuff from Thomann but none of that money goes to Ireland. None of the stock is sourced from Irish suppliers. This ultimately leads to less jobs and less taxes to provide your country with the much needed resources to make this place better. You may save personally but we all pay in the end.

    Having said that, most good music shops in Ireland are only too happy to try and price match Thomann and others where possible. If we can get it and not make a loss we would love your business. But bear in mind that if a retailer cannot match Thomann's price it may not be because they are a rip off. In reality it just may not be viable to lose money.

    We have quite a few customers in Europe but in our three years of trading not once have we had an order from Germany. It could be that Germany have Thomann and others so no need to buy outside the country but I would argue that Germany, and in my opinion France, are far more nationalistic than Ireland or the UK. The E.U is supposed to be an open market but having recently visited a friend trying to setup an Irish bar in France I was shocked when he told me how difficult he was finding it to source Guinness in France. He told me "they simply don't want you importing it". Now I may be jumping to conclusions but I noted 9 out of 10 cars in France are French.
    Ultimately you have to wonder why Germany and France's economy's are in much better shape than ours. I note this forum still has a lovely big free advert for Thomann in form of a sticky :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    In this modern internet age, every single business is going to suffer from being undercut by shopping online.

    Unfortunately for the instrument retailers here, they wont be able to buy in bulk like the bigger shops online. The more they can buy up the more they can reduce the price by. X-Music should have a shop quarter the size and a huge warehouse. And they never pushed the online business as much as they should.

    Another massive factor is the lack of options. Im not going to find what I want here. 3/4 of what I own, I would never have found in Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    the fact you can't even buy a zvex pedal in an Irish bricks and mortar shop says alot,I mean the company has been around 15 years now? they're not even really boutique anymore they are mass production!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭Dord


    Putting cost aside, let's be honest here the selection in Irish music stores is fairly weak. If you have any tastes slightly outside the standard you're going to be screwed.

    Most of my instruments have been bought from outside Ireland because you can get exactly what you want... and not being told "ehh... what's that?" or "yeah we can order that in but it'll take 3 months and cost you your first born child".

    For small things like strings I'll usually buy them here, thats about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,277 ✭✭✭evolutionqy7


    novarock wrote: »
    In this modern internet age, every single business is going to suffer from being undercut by shopping on line

    why not set up your own on line shop then? you can sell globally and locally at the same time...if you provide good prices and deals i doubt that a business would continue to suffer!

    business is progressing their always looking for ways to broaden their customer range! no point staying with the flinstones!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Strings.ie


    punchdrunk wrote: »
    the fact you can't even buy a zvex pedal in an Irish bricks and mortar shop says alot,I mean the company has been around 15 years now? they're not even really boutique anymore they are mass production!

    You have to look at it from a business point of view.
    A retailer generally cannot buy one or two items. In most cases he must buy a box or more to get any kind of discount that can be passed on to the customer to be competitive. So you are talking about an investment. If I spend €500 on your Zvex pedals I need them to sell. I cannot afford for €500 to be tied up in a product for 1,2 plus years only to end up cutting my loses.

    Its a difficult judgement because unless you take a gamble you just never know if something is going to sell.
    I have invested in stocking many products because customers have requested it only to find they just sit there and don't sell. I would love to spend a fortune on having a large selection in stock but it isn't possible.

    Take DR strings for example. Fantastic strings but they just aren't that known in Ireland. We have a handful of customers who use them but its very hard to justify continued investment in stock for it to only just sit there. The problem with strings is there are so many variations with gauges and such that even when you do invest you can bet the one gauge you didn't go for is what the customer now wants. So you order a box in and the customer buys two sets. Now I'm stuck with 10 sets that don't sell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    Mark2229 wrote: »
    I like to buy online because as people have said its cheaper but there is also a much bigger selection of things to be found on the likes of Thomann that you just cant find here. I would buy picks, strings, straps and that sort of stuff here though :)

    +1.

    The main reason I shop online, apart from the value, is for the choice. There is even a very limited selection on said strings ( I am talking bass strings ) here in Ireland, even in our biggest music shop, i.e. "X Music". There is a very limited selection of basses there too. The recession has nothing to do with this, as it was the exact same during the boom years. I am sure it is the same with other instruments.

    I am sure a lot of people would consider buying at home, if they could get what they wanted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    You have to look at it from a business point of view.
    A retailer generally cannot buy one or two items. In most cases he must buy a box or more to get any kind of discount that can be passed on to the customer to be competitive. So you are talking about an investment. If I spend €500 on your Zvex pedals I need them to sell. I cannot afford for €500 to be tied up in a product for 1,2 plus years only to end up cutting my loses.

    Its a difficult judgement because unless you take a gamble you just never know if something is going to sell.
    I have invested in stocking many products because customers have requested it only to find they just sit there and don't sell. I would love to spend a fortune on having a large selection in stock but it isn't possible.

    Take DR strings for example. Fantastic strings but they just aren't that known in Ireland. We have a handful of customers who use them but its very hard to justify continued investment in stock for it to only just sit there. The problem with strings is there are so many variations with gauges and such that even when you do invest you can bet the one gauge you didn't go for is what the customer now wants. So you order a box in and the customer buys two sets. Now I'm stuck with 10 sets that don't sell.

    like I said as someone who's worked in retail since I was 18 I fully understand,and sympathise
    but simply put it's not like the old days where people had patience to wait until something was ordered in,they want it quick
    also back then people didn't know half these brands existed with the web
    buyers are simply more informed than before

    from experience I'd hazard a guess it's young lads starting out,and older fellas who maybe aren't as confident shopping online that keep the Irish shops here limping on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    You have to look at it from a business point of view.
    A retailer generally cannot buy one or two items. In most cases he must buy a box or more to get any kind of discount that can be passed on to the customer to be competitive. So you are talking about an investment. If I spend €500 on your Zvex pedals I need them to sell. I cannot afford for €500 to be tied up in a product for 1,2 plus years only to end up cutting my loses.

    Its a difficult judgement because unless you take a gamble you just never know if something is going to sell.
    I have invested in stocking many products because customers have requested it only to find they just sit there and don't sell. I would love to spend a fortune on having a large selection in stock but it isn't possible.

    Take DR strings for example. Fantastic strings but they just aren't that known in Ireland. We have a handful of customers who use them but its very hard to justify continued investment in stock for it to only just sit there. The problem with strings is there are so many variations with gauges and such that even when you do invest you can bet the one gauge you didn't go for is what the customer now wants. So you order a box in and the customer buys two sets. Now I'm stuck with 10 sets that don't sell.

    I am sure all this is true, but you have to look at it from a consumer point of view. He/she wants "x" item. They go into a shop, cash in hand to buy it, only to be told that it is not available, or it will possibly be available in six months if they order it. This person goes home, gets on the net, and buys it. Depending on the item and place of origin, it is usually delivered in a fairly short time. All this, leaving aside the money saved. Possibly it is unfair, but the consumer does not give a damn about the woes of the retailer. He justs wants his guitar, strings, pedals, etc, and is willing to pay for them. If they cant be supplied in Ireland, you cant blame him for going elsewhere.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Strings.ie


    Rigsby wrote: »
    I am sure all this is true, but you have to look at it from a consumer point of view. He/she wants "x" item. They go into a shop, cash in hand to buy it, only to be told that it is not available, or it will possibly be available in six months if they order it. This person goes home, gets on the net, and buys it. Depending on the item and place of origin, it is usually delivered in a fairly short time. All this, leaving aside the money saved. Possibly it is unfair, but the consumer does not give a damn about the woes of the retailer. He justs wants his guitar, strings, pedals, etc, and is willing to pay for them. If they cant be supplied in Ireland, you cant blame him for going elsewhere.

    Sure, I too am a consumer and when I cannot buy Irish I buy elsewhere. I know the reality of it, I was just trying to explain some of the reasons why retailers cannot stock everything. Ireland has a population of 4 million of so, there just isn't the market.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    Sure, I too am a consumer and when I cannot buy Irish I buy elsewhere. I know the reality of it, I was just trying to explain some of the reasons why retailers cannot stock everything. Ireland has a population of 4 million of so, there just isn't the market.

    I agree, but as I said, the consumer does not want excuses, he wants value and choice, or he'll go elsewhere. That is the way of the business world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    You have to look at it from a business point of view.
    A retailer generally cannot buy one or two items. In most cases he must buy a box or more to get any kind of discount that can be passed on to the customer to be competitive. So you are talking about an investment. If I spend €500 on your Zvex pedals I need them to sell. I cannot afford for €500 to be tied up in a product for 1,2 plus years only to end up cutting my loses.

    Its a difficult judgement because unless you take a gamble you just never know if something is going to sell.
    I have invested in stocking many products because customers have requested it only to find they just sit there and don't sell. I would love to spend a fortune on having a large selection in stock but it isn't possible.

    Take DR strings for example. Fantastic strings but they just aren't that known in Ireland. We have a handful of customers who use them but its very hard to justify continued investment in stock for it to only just sit there. The problem with strings is there are so many variations with gauges and such that even when you do invest you can bet the one gauge you didn't go for is what the customer now wants. So you order a box in and the customer buys two sets. Now I'm stuck with 10 sets that don't sell.

    What I fail to understand with guitar shops in Ireland is that as a lefty, I have to order everything from abroad. In all honesty, if I could get it here for 5-10% more i would.

    If I went to Musicmaker today and asked for a lefty Jazz with charcoal finish, they would either say no way, or it would take six months. I could then go home, check the big sites, and find it. I would have it to my house in two weeks flat.

    Perhaps the shops should consider doing this work for the customer, andding 10% to the cost as profit. Then they would have the sale. Over in america the smaller shops in new york buy all/a majority of their stuff from musiciansfriend.com or guitar center. They then add a minor markup. The point is you can go in to a shop and get what you want within a reasonable time.

    It just doesnt happen here. They shoot themselves in the feet here. There are countless musicians that would shop here if the case was that we could get the product fast. Saying that you dont want unsold stock should not be your customers problem, the risk should be down to the retailer. Whats the point in playing it safe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    Sure, I too am a consumer and when I cannot buy Irish I buy elsewhere. I know the reality of it, I was just trying to explain some of the reasons why retailers cannot stock everything. Ireland has a population of 4 million of so, there just isn't the market.

    If the market isnt there, then why are we having this debate. The market is there in a big way. My band personally over the years has spent thousands online, all three of us. We're just one band. There are another 2000 bands in dublin alone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    if i had to put a rough figure on money spent by me on music gear over the last 13 years i'd say roughly 20~25k

    I'm just one man!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    Ireland has a population of 4 million of so, there just isn't the market.
    Way to go to defeat your own argument dude. I empathise with you, genuinely, however you seem like the exception rather than the norm. Irish Music Shops are pretty poor and stuck in the stone age. The layout, the sales pitch, the selection, everything. It's just sh*t.

    I don't care that Thomann is German, could be Indonesian for all I care, these places get people anything they want and do so at a price that beats the local suppliers to death while providing a superior shopping experience and service too. It's not accurate to say Irish stores are "competing" with E-tailers, it's like a Sunday league side trying to take on Barcelona ffs. Yiz are simply no match, sad as that may be, anything you do will just be a galant but inevitably futile effort to claw back a respectable percentage of the millions of euro Irish muso's pump into the German economy.

    It gives me no pleasure to see the Irish stores in such dire straits, but having dealt with them pre-internet shopping days I can safely say they by and large are masters of their own downfall with the shoddy service and elitist attitude they got away with for years. So I'll spend my money elsewhere now, thanks, and won't feel guilty for doing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Strings.ie


    novarock wrote: »
    What I fail to understand with guitar shops in Ireland is that as a lefty, I have to order everything from abroad. In all honesty, if I could get it here for 5-10% more i would.

    If I went to Musicmaker today and asked for a lefty Jazz with charcoal finish, they would either say no way, or it would take six months. I could then go home, check the big sites, and find it. I would have it to my house in two weeks flat.

    Perhaps the shops should consider doing this work for the customer, andding 10% to the cost as profit. Then they would have the sale. Over in america the smaller shops in new york buy all/a majority of their stuff from musiciansfriend.com or guitar center. They then add a minor markup. The point is you can go in to a shop and get what you want within a reasonable time.

    As an Irish retailer I am legally obliged for many brands to only buy from the Irish distributor or the official distributor assigned to cover Ireland.
    If you ask me to source a specific product such as the left handed Guitar you mention and the distributor doesn't have it in stock, they then have to arrange for it to be included in their next shipment from the manufacturer.
    The manufacturer maybe saying the next batch won't be ready for 6 months.
    The distributors are in the same boat as the retailers, they cannot afford to have everything in stock all the time and this quite often leaves the retailer without access to products.
    Its really frustrating for us too. We want your custom and we want access to the products quickly. Unfortunately it is sometimes not possible.


    It just doesnt happen here. They shoot themselves in the feet here. There are countless musicians that would shop here if the case was that we could get the product fast. Saying that you dont want unsold stock should not be your customers problem, the risk should be down to the retailer. Whats the point in playing it safe?

    The point is to stay in business. Look, each month I have a set amount of cash to reinvest in stock. If I'm not careful and invest too much in something that does not sell, next month I will have less to invest in things that do sell or new products that are likely to sell. I'm not making excuses, I'm just telling you how it is.
    The good news is we still have a growing customer base and I have countless emails and phone calls every week from our customers telling me how pleased they are with the service we provide. We are tiny compared to many of the larger shops mentioned in this thread but the examples I have given would relate to the larger shops only on a bigger scale.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Strings.ie


    novarock wrote: »
    If the market isnt there, then why are we having this debate. The market is there in a big way. My band personally over the years has spent thousands online, all three of us. We're just one band. There are another 2000 bands in dublin alone.

    All I'm saying is Ireland has 4 million people and the UK has 60+ Million. This is reflected in the stock shops have. Same with Irish distributor V's UK ones.
    The Irish distributor for one particular brand we sell carries less of a selection than the UK distributor yet I am not allowed to buy from the UK distribution.
    This results in a delay for my access to certain products because the Irish distributor would have to include it on their next shipment which may be 6 weeks yet the UK distributor has it in stock and I'm not allowed to source it from them! This is the reality of doing business in a small country.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭darkvalley


    I recently wanted to buy a Martin D 28 guitar. Priced it in the States and here. Over $800 of a difference!!, include $200 for transport and still a major difference.
    I despite this, wanted to buy from an Irish shop. Supporting local business, play before I buy, easy return if there was a problem, etc. Checked on-line, 4 shops advertised them, including 2 very big shops in Dublin and not one of them had them in stock! And this is a standard Martin and one of their best sellers. I only enquired from one about ordering it and they would do it for a non refundable deposit

    Really, why would I want to pay them around €700 to order it, persumably on-line, when I could do that myself? I'd like to support local business, but sometimes they don't make it easy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    All I'm saying is Ireland has 4 million people and the UK has 60+ Million. This is reflected in the stock shops have. Same with Irish distributor V's UK ones.
    The Irish distributor for one particular brand we sell carries less of a selection than the UK distributor yet I am not allowed to buy from the UK distribution.
    This results in a delay for my access to certain products because the Irish distributor would have to include it on their next shipment which may be 6 weeks yet the UK distributor has it in stock and I'm not allowed to source it from them! This is the reality of doing business in a small country.

    Please dont take me up in any way as attacking you by the way - I didnt mean to come across so harsh, but its just an unfortunate reality.

    At this stage in my career/hobby I want to have equipment that is not supplied in Ireland, along with the few hundred regular posters on the instruments forum. The business you are in is the safest in regards to supplying musicians. Two things that you are guaranteed to make some cash with in Ireland - Accessories and repairs...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Strings.ie


    novarock wrote: »
    Please dont take me up in any way as attacking you by the way - I didnt mean to come across so harsh, but its just an unfortunate reality.

    At this stage in my career/hobby I want to have equipment that is not supplied in Ireland, along with the few hundred regular posters on the instruments forum. The business you are in is the safest in regards to supplying musicians. Two things that you are guaranteed to make some cash with in Ireland - Accessories and repairs...

    No worries Novarock ;)
    As you say, most of the problems people are having relate to larger items such as instruments. We mainly deal in small items but I do know a few shops who really are trying their hardest and its not fair to blame them for stuff beyond their control.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Strings.ie wrote: »
    Sure, I too am a consumer and when I cannot buy Irish I buy elsewhere. I know the reality of it, I was just trying to explain some of the reasons why retailers cannot stock everything. Ireland has a population of 4 million of so, there just isn't the market.

    The reason I don't have a problem buying abroad is (and i buy consumables like string/leads etc locally), I'm not buying Irish.. I'm just paying extra (sometimes a lot extra) for an Irish guy to hand me a product made abroad.

    I understand the point about not stocking items.. absolutely, but there is unfortunately an attitude difference with a lot of Irish music retailers. If you don't have it fine (and obviously not your personally :)), but most cant be arsed to order it in for you, they seem to believe it's my duty to buy from their existing stock of items i dont nor would ever want. X Music couldnt be even arsed to find out if they stocked Black Heart amps when I rang them a year ago.. "she was busy, was there anything else i wanted?". Not bothered ringing them since.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Strings.ie


    Welease wrote: »
    The reason I don't have a problem buying abroad is (and i buy consumables like string/leads etc locally), I'm not buying Irish.. I'm just paying extra (sometimes a lot extra) for an Irish guy to hand me a product made abroad.

    I understand the point about not stocking items.. absolutely, but there is unfortunately an attitude difference with a lot of Irish music retailers. If you don't have it fine (and obviously not your personally :)), but most cant be arsed to order it in for you, they seem to believe it's my duty to buy from their existing stock of items i dont nor would ever want. X Music couldnt be even arsed to find out if they stocked Black Heart amps when I rang them a year ago.. "she was busy, was there anything else i wanted?". Not bothered ringing them since.

    Well I can't talk for other shops but my policy is to get back to every customer who has made the effort to contact us. In fact a customer emailed us at 11.55PM last night & I emailed back straight away. I also don't believe in messing people around with false promises. I run our business with the aim of keeping every single customer we get for life. I go out of my way to keep and look after all my customers and it is paying off because we don't need to advertise any more. Most new customers come to us through recommendation and our reputation is the most important thing to me.

    With regards ordering stuff in, despite my previous post I generally always try to look after customers and we do get some really odd requests for weird strings and such like. I have customers who may be the only person in the country who uses a certain type of string and we are happy to keep that in stock for them. Most shops wouldn't worry about such small sales but it all adds up when the customer keeps coming back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭new fang


    hey strings.ie, what a coincidence, i ordered some fretboard polish and strings from ya a couple of days ago that arrived today!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 Taxpayer


    You should contact that dude strings.ie!!


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