Ireland, 2010: Unmarried father loses custody of his 3 kids

Dionysus

This

Am I alone in thinking that a huge moral wrong has been done to this man?

I'm a single guy with no kids but this sort of story scares the shít out of me.

The guy in question had 3 children with this woman. They had, according to that RTÉ report, an unstable relationship and she claimed she left when he allegedly fell asleep drunk while supposedly caring for the kids. She refused to give him any access to the children and, scarily, had current Irish law on her side when she decided that. That beggars belief. Wrong, so fúcking wrong.

According to RTÉ, the judge 'described the mother's decision to deprive the father of the opportunity for day to day access to the children as "reprehensible". But he found that the father did not have any 'rights of custody' of the children under the Hague Convention as he never applied to a court to be made a guardian of the children, for reasons which were not explained.'

Why, in 2010, do unmarried fathers in this state not have equal rights before the law to their children? I think I'd make a really cool Dad and I've seen plenty of women who make fairly shítty parents. Despite this, under both our Constitution and our statutory laws the latter have superior rights because of their sex. That's wrong whichever way you cut it, legal but profoundly unjust.

Are there any arguments for maintaining the current situation? Are there any arguments *against* giving the father an equal right to the child's upbringing? (obviously some fathers, like some mothers, are incapable of having this responsibility but that is a very, very different thing to the law stating, as it currently does, that the unmarried mother has a greater right to rear the child than has the unmarried father)

UrbanSea

Women get the best of everything in the Irish legal system. Kill someone? Community service is harsh for them.

landsleaving

Another sexist Irish law. Father's can't raise kids, young lads are corrupting girls, etc, etc.

Should be changed, it's horrible what a lot of fathers have to go through.

Podge2k7

Unless the father was a danger to the child, he should have equal rights tbh.

The_Kew_Tour

Yes Fathers rights in this country are nothing and it needs to be taken seriously

UrbanSea

Podge2k7 wrote: »

Unless the father was a danger to the child, he should have equal rights tbh.

They make the male out to look like the bad guy. The mother could just as easily be a danger,but the law would probably back her up too.

sam34

i think that by default, both parents should be guardians. married/unmarried/separated/whatever

its ridiculous that a parent should have to apply to be a guardian of their own child ffs

imo, you should have to apply to be released from guardian role (if thats what you want) not the other way around

lil'bug

my mate is very worried about loosing his kids ,at the mo, his partner died last year and her mother is trying to claim he is unfit to look after his 2 kids.

Wazdakka

Why is there a system that so many people think is inadequate running?
I mean seriously, what the hell is wrong with this country??

Sometimes I think I should try to be a politician and fix some of the way things are run :mad:

Bolag_the_2nd

i have been involved in cases first hand where the father was refused his rights because the mother turned on the sniff sniff's, even though she was a gowl, the law has to be changed to protect the rights of the fathers, its heart breaking to see a good man deflated.

caprilicious

I don't understand why men don't have automatic equal rights to guardianship, its a disgrace :mad:

SEPT 23 1989

I dont think that the children are safe around a woman who is so ****ed up in the head that she wont let them see their own father

twinQuins

He's not good enough to raise the children but I guarantee his money will be damn good enough for her.

kevin12345

This is so wrong! I believe men should have equal rights and deserve the right to see their children.

What it is with some women who complain about "equal rights" and "sexism" - they choose when this is so. Some women would say "oh but it's always the women who stay at home with the children", but I bet, if you got the same woman at a different time outside of "court" they would fight you tooth and nail saying you are wrong and that woman shouldn't have to stay at home blah, blah, blah. :rolleyes:

Remember, it takes two to tango

ToniTuddle

sam34 wrote: »

its ridiculous that a parent should have to apply to be a guardian of their own child ffs

I never even knew you had to apply for guardianship until it came to light few months back due to a family issue. I thought once the name was on the birth certificate and you shared the same feicing DNA you were sorted. :mad:

A friend of mine split up with his partner of 6 years. She left the country with their 3 year old child and never said a word to him. He is currently out a fortune with solicitors and in constant contact with the Gardai.

After a few months she returned(looking worse than ever-major alco/druggie which she managed to keep hidden from him most of the time) alone and got the rest of her stuff. He rang the Gardai like they had instructed him to do, thinking the would question her...or do something. They rambled off some nonsense about needing a piece of paper blah blah.

So you can get lifted for joy riding...or being drunk on the street, but KIDNAPPING a child...oh yeah that's perfectly fine. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


In this country grandparents have more rights to the child than the actual father!

Makes me sick.

DazMarz

It's not right that a man could be denied to see his children. It's not right that anyone be denied the right to see their children.

But the law almost everywhere, not just in Ireland, will always side with the mother. She could be a crack-dependent alcoholic and the father could be a brain-surgeon, and the mother would still likely get preference (ok, little bit of hyperbole/exaggeration-in-extremis there, but you know what I'm getting at).

I know lads who have nearly been driven to suicide by cases like this, not being able to see their children.

It's a sad case, and the laws/rights need to be changed ASAP.

SeaFields

It could be changed in the referendum on the rights of the child which is supposed to be held soon.

However as FF will be forced to hold the 3 outstanding by-elections at the same time and jeapordise their Dail majority thats not likely to be held for a long long time

Cnuts:mad:

Gunmonkey

DazMarz wrote: »

It's not right that a man could be denied to see his children. It's not right that anyone be denied the right to see their children.

But the law almost everywhere, not just in Ireland, will always side with the mother. She could be a crack-dependent alcoholic and the father could be a brain-surgeon, and the mother would still likely get preference (ok, little bit of hyperbole/exaggeration-in-extremis there, but you know what I'm getting at).

Yeah, heard a horrid story from England I think. Guy was a part-time worker/househusband, took care of the 2 kids and cleaned the house type deal with a small job on the side for extra cash. Wife was a high flying career woman who got bored of being with the "loser" and shacked up with an "Alpha-male" type from the office, filed for divorce and got immediate custody and no visitation for the father, dispite ther fact the he spent the last 10 or so years raising the kids and spent more time with them.

If genders were reversed, she would have got the kids as she was the "better parent" and he would be vilified as a mysoginist pig that sleeps around.

I used to look at the Fathers for Justice guys on TV and think "Twats" but after reading up on how little rights I would have as a father I say good on them.

phill106

kevin12345 wrote: »

What it is with some women who complain about "equal rights" and "sexism" - they choose when this is so.

Because they want equal rights when they feel they are losing out. Try it the other way, and there is no hope.
Look at ladies nights in clubs, when women get in free. If it was other way round, bra burning feminists would be organising a boycott, and take cases to the european courts.
Paternal leave when you have a new baby? Nope. Just maternal. Should be a parental leave, which can be split between the two.
Cheaper car insurance for women because they are "safer" and thus cost the insurance companies less. Yet when Old people were going to have their policies loaded, as the younger people had been subsidising, this was illegal.
All shennanigans i cry!

landsleaving

This man is a hero.

Unfortunately the media seem to care far more about traffic:

(Yes I'm aware they are two different incidents, but you get my point.)

franklyshocked

My son is my joy. He has me wrapped around his finger but we have the best of fun together. I can't imagine my life not being able to see him.
With so many relationships not surviving and so many gob****es out there having kids you would think that for fellows out there that really want to make a go of giving a child a better life that the government, the country, would be able to offer some support and at the very least offer equal rights.
Its a sign of disrespect to every decent man in the country

VaPz

Its actually disturbing how i could, grow up. Marry a beautiful wife. Buy a Porsche. Have 3 lovely kids. Then one day, me and the misses have a big argument.

Suddenly im broke, and all alone.

Love irish laws.

Dionysus

<SNIP> - Do not link to PI threads - Mod

It's really odd, in my view, that so many lives can be blighted by Irish law on this issue. It sounds like something for the ECHR if domestic law refuses to give justice to these unmarried fathers.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

The referendum on childs rights was mentioned above. I heard it said around the time that they decided a need for such a referendum that it could help prevent such problems. It could do so by adding more weight to a childs right to see their parent as opposed to rewriting all the legislation and re-balancing the various articles in the constitution that may need to be changed.
The child would have a right of association with its parents (with the usual caveats of course), and any cruel intentions or gender issues between the parents may be irrelevant

Tail Wagger

Hi guys, this is the real Ireland behind closed doors... The Courts and the Judges are old men and I don't think it has changed much in the past 30 years, and I'm speaking from experience.

I have family I became un-attached from years ago, the usual the relationship broke up. The kids are used as pawns by the ex, you end up having to go to court to make an arrangement to see your kids. then you call to collect them and they are taken out somewhere else.

Honestly, men have no rights to their kids, whether married or single in this Country.The women end up with the house the kids and everything, I knew lots of guys over the years who died from one thing or another over this whole system, and who cares? No one!

Kanoe

I dont know any fathers who want custody of their children but thats besides the point. As highlighted elsewhere these laws are not localised and the judge made it clear it was his job to make his ruling under the prevailing system. Thats not to say I think it's fair but that the jdges hands are tied. I think its also reasonable to note that in the case where a man may want to leave the country after separating from his partner and kids there is nothing preventing him from doing so nor is there any obligation for him to contribute financially under current law.

Klingon Hamlet

Mods:

Might want to merge this thread with this one

stovelid

The birth parents of the child should have automatic guardianship unless one of them doesn't want it. Decent fathers are treated like shit in this country - no two ways about it. It's a great pity that there are so many deadbeat men whose disinterest in their own kids probably goes some way to exacerbating the unjust perception that the mother always knows what best.

Misty Chaos

Look at this way;

Men are demonised left, right and center in mainstream media. Look at most soaps, it usually portrays most men as evil, sinister, flakey cnuts who seem to enjoy beating the crap out of their wives and girlfriends or just being cnuts in the first place. Of course, if it was the other way, they would be war over it! Either that or they are portrayed as bumbling idiots while the woman is the ' leader ' of the pack, I can think of far too many ' sitcoms ' that use that idea!

To be honest, it really sickens me the way things are at present.

Sorry, I do care for equal rights but what we have is a dark and twisted version of it. Women are just as capable of being evil as men and I've known some pretty twisted b!tches in my time who were a lot worse and more heartless than any guy I've known.

For that reason, shafted fathers have my sympathy.

Podge_irl

zxy wrote: »

I think its also reasonable to note that in the case where a man may want to leave the country after separating from his partner and kids there is nothing preventing him from doing so nor is there any obligation for him to contribute financially under current law.

Though I imagine if he took his kids with him he'd be the subject of a massive manhunt and subsequent prosecution.

Dudess

Unmarried fathers have zero rights - zero. It is indeed scary stuff.

Kanoe

Podge_irl wrote: »

Though I imagine if he took his kids with him he'd be the subject of a massive manhunt and subsequent prosecution.

yeah..and tbf, I'd do time if someone ran off with mine.
It is the case where couples are not married that is the issue here though, the rights automatically transfer over to the mother, as well as leaving fathers without any basic rights, it also means they're not obligated to their chidren in anyway. I think if one is going to be addressed the other should too.

pablomakaveli

The thing that annoys me is that people are always giving out about absent fathers not taking responsibilty for their children and yet guys like the father in this case who will do anything for their kids are being denied access.

It's a ****in disgrace.:mad:

The_Minister

I can't find a link to the judgment yet, but it is 66 pages long.
That should give people some idea that the issue is slightly more complicated than is being made out.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

The_Minister wrote: »

I can't find a link to the judgment yet, but it is 66 pages long.
That should give people some idea that the issue is slightly more complicated than is being made out.

As is normally the case.

Although, fathers do have a lot less rights than mothers. I forget the exact statement why, but has something to do with a childs need for his mother more so than his father. Or something along those lines. I could be completely wrong though. It does happen :P

Kanoe

pablomakaveli wrote: »

The thing that annoys me is that people are always giving out about absent fathers not taking responsibilty for their children and yet guys like the father in this case who will do anything for their kids are being denied access.

It's a ****in disgrace.:mad:

probably because there are vast amounts of children being raised without fathers in their lives, and not by decree of law but because for the most part the fathers aren't interested in their children. My own opinion is that the law should be changed to reflect the needs of the child, not the father or mother.

K-9

You know what really annoys me about this, besides my personal experience of the so called "family" courts in this country?

A British Court will put our legal system to shame on this case!

PeterIanStaker

This system is outdated because its geared around the Church wanting to take the children in cases like these.
It needs to be radically overhauled. Now I know there are men/women out there not fit to own a goldfish never mind have kids, but not all cases perhaps (and I dont know all the details) including this one?

K-9

The_Minister wrote: »

I can't find a link to the judgment yet, but it is 66 pages long.
That should give people some idea that the issue is slightly more complicated than is being made out.

Agreed, though the judge seems to be hinting at his hands being tied by Irish courts in this case.

zxy wrote: »

probably because there are vast amounts of children being raised without fathers in their lives, and not by decree of law but because for the most part the fathers aren't interested in their children. My own opinion is that the law should be changed to reflect the needs of the child, not the father or mother.

You know something, I'm sick sore and fecking tired of being tarred and feathered by absent Dads! They do exist and I hate them. Let the law deal with and give decent fathers rights. Stop wasting the courts time in giving decent fathers Guardianship and access rights to their own children and start taking it away from those who don't deserve them.

If this situation was in regard to mothers, there'd be uproar.

Kanoe

K-9 wrote: »

Agreed, though the judge seems to be hinting at his hands being tied by Irish courts in this case.





You know something, I'm sick sore and fecking tired of being tarred and feathered by absent Dads! They do exist and I hate them. Let the law deal with and give decent fathers rights. Stop wasting the courts time in giving decent fathers Guardianship and access rights to their own children and start taking it away from those who don't deserve them.

If this situation was in regard to mothers, there'd be uproar.

Then get onto the dads, its really not my problem its just the way it is. I'd have more empathy but I can't go back and do the last 16 years over.

and as for the feminist thing, I don't buy into it. All my closest friends are male and I've never been treated as less than equal by any of them, women on the other hand treat me like **** on a daily basis, so you don't need to tell me about your rights. This shouldnt be about the battle of the sexes, it really should be about what is best for the children and at the end of the day the children of this country are the ones who have suffered by the system.

newwifey

You know something, I'm sick sore and fecking tired of being tarred and feathered by absent Dads!

Fine! But unfortunately most dads don't give a sh/t! Even if they are present on a daily basis in their kids lives - its in my experience that dads are not the nurturing kind.

m@cc@

She claimed this was due to an incident in which she found their father drunk while in charge of the children.
The court had heard that the long relationship between the two parents had been unstable and unhappy.

I'd be interested to hear more about this before I'd pass any judgement on this individual case.

lynski

one of the reasons that the dads of ireland have no rights is to do with the right to life of the unborn enshrined in the irish constitution. basically if a dad has automatic rights to the child where does it start? could a father potentially prevent a mother from having a termination and force her to carry his child?
Given that a woman can currently force a man to become a father, could the situation be reversed by giving fathers rights to the companionship of their child?
Until we can face up to abortion properly irish fathers will get shortchanged.

Couples who are pregnant should have to go to some kind of pre-children course, like a pre-marriage course, so they can work out what they want for themselves and their offspring(s) and part of that should be education on the rights and responsibilities of parenthood.

K-9

newwifey wrote: »

Fine! But unfortunately most dads don't give a sh/t! Even if they are present on a daily basis in their kids lives - its in my experience that dads are not the nurturing kind.

Most? You know this for a fact or are just prejudiced?

K-9

zxy wrote: »

Then get onto the dads, its really not my problem its just the way it is. I'd have more empathy but I can't go back and do the last 16 years over.

and as for the feminist thing, I don't buy into it. All my closest friends are male and I've never been treated as less than equal by any of them, women on the other hand treat me like **** on a daily basis, so you don't need to tell me about your rights. This shouldnt be about the battle of the sexes, it really should be about what is best for the children and at the end of the day the children of this country are the ones who have suffered by the system.

I can't undo my last 12 years either? So what?

Yes the children have suffered and at least Labour, who I don't agree with on most issues, are trying to address it. I'll put many issues aside and vote for them.

K-9

lynski wrote: »

one of the reasons that the dads of ireland have no rights is to do with the right to life of the unborn enshrined in the irish constitution. basically if a dad has automatic rights to the child where does it start? could a father potentially prevent a mother from having a termination and force her to carry his child?
Given that a woman can currently force a man to become a father, could the situation be reversed by giving fathers rights to the companionship of their child?
Until we can face up to abortion properly irish fathers will get shortchanged.

Couples who are pregnant should have to go to some kind of pre-children course, like a pre-marriage course, so they can work out what they want for themselves and their offspring(s) and part of that should be education on the rights and responsibilities of parenthood.

The Labour law (pardon the pun) and in Britain, only applies when the Dad signs the Birth Cert. Would stop alot of crap over mothers not naming the father as well.

Kanoe

K-9 wrote: »

I can't undo my last 12 years either? So what?

so, is it my fault? I didn't create the system I (and my child) have just lived at bequest of it and I'm only one of many. You seem to want to hold me personally responsible for something I have no control over. there are hundreds of thousands of children being raised in this country without any kind of support from their fathers, emotional, psychological or financial. My question is why does the law not provide for that?

Yes the children have suffered and at least Labour, who I don't agree with on most issues, are trying to address it. I'll put many issues aside and vote for them.

R0ot

I've told the OH (although she laughs when I say this) that if she tries to take the child away from me I will kill her. No ifs, ands or buts just don't take the child from me.

I figure murderers only seem to get about 10-20 years in Ireland so no big worry and if I have any amount of money I can probably draw the case out and get 5-7 years suspended.

m@cc@

newwifey wrote: »

Fine! But unfortunately most dads don't give a sh/t! Even if they are present on a daily basis in their kids lives - its in my experience that dads are not the nurturing kind.

WTF? How many dads do you have? Dads are probably not as emotive as mothers but to say that they're not nurturing is utter tripe.

R0ot wrote: »

I've told the OH (although she laughs when I say this) that if she tries to take the child away from me I will kill her. No ifs, ands or buts just don't take the child from me.



I figure murderers only seem to get about 10-20 years in Ireland so no big worry and if I have any amount of money I can probably draw the case out and get 5-7 years suspended.

What a load of self-centred crap. Ever take time out to think of the kids reaction?

Dudess

greetings wrote: »

Women get the best of everything in the Irish legal system. Kill someone? Community service is harsh for them.

Don't talk sh1te - do the names Catherine Nevin and Linda and Charlotte Mulhall not mean anything to you? I agree there is most definitely bias in favour of women when it comes to family law, but no need for those kinds of OTT claims which always lead to woman-bashing on these threads.

newwifey wrote: »

Fine! But unfortunately most dads don't give a sh/t! Even if they are present on a daily basis in their kids lives - its in my experience that dads are not the nurturing kind.

That still doesn't mean all men should be held accountable for the actions (or inaction) of some. My friend was barely 19 when she discovered she was pregnant, and when she told the "man" she was living with, he promptly told her to gtfo. Eight and a half years on, he has no involvement in his son's life - I don't even know if he knows anything about his child tbh.
She hadn't even given birth when she met her now fiancé however - an amazing guy who treats the child like his own.
It's a shame men like him can't be taken into account...

K-9

zxy wrote: »

so, is it my fault? I didn't create the system I (and my child) have just lived at bequest of it and I'm only one of many. You seem to want to hold me personally responsible for something I have no control over. there are hundreds of thousands of children being raised in this country without any kind of support from their fathers, emotional, psychological or financial. My question is why does the law not provide for that?

Not your fault, never said that. Care to quote where I did? If you want to have a civilised debate, debate objectively. I will if posters stop with stupid generalisations.

The law should provide for normal law abiding people, it generally does, that's the way it works.

Family Law is an exception in relation to Unmarried Dads. It assumes Unmarried Dads have to seek Guardianship and access to their children.