P&D Advanced marathoning

tunney

Everyone keeps talking about this book. Its one of the few I haven't read so I suppose I better.

Is this is:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Marathoning-Peter-Pfitzinger/dp/0736074600/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

plodder

That's the one. It's the second edition, which came out early last year, I think.

Krusty_Clown

Try ThebookDepository, which is free postage.
Are you hoping to do a Steven Way?! He followed the P&D <70 mpw program, for a 2:35 finish.

tunney

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Try ThebookDepository, which is free postage.
Are you hoping to do a Steven Way?! He followed the P&D <70 mpw program, for a 2:35 finish.

Nah Just wanted to read the book, just curious as to what a 2:3x marathon entails in terms of training. Very easy to get into 2:5x shape but that extra 20 minutes?

Krusty_Clown

I have a feeling that you will find the 'science of running' sections of the book a little under-whelming, based on your knowledge of the subject, but hopefully the programs will be useful. There is no correlation between the programs and pace./target times. i.e. there isn't any mention of... To achieve 2:3x you need to follow yyyy. The programs are all presented, and you take your pick.

I followed the 12 week 55mpw program for a 2:55, but reckon I'll have to step up to a higher mileage program to get 2:4x. I think I'll stick with the 12 weeks, as I'm hoping to carry my endurance (long runs) through to the start of the next program.

TFBubendorfer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are you hoping to do a Steven Way?! He followed the P&D <70 mpw program, for a 2:35 finish.

How did he do that if he ran 130 miles per week?

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

How did he do that if he ran 130 miles per week?

Didn't the 130mpw come afterwards (e.g. for one of his more agressive targets?)

seanynova

Are training pace guidlines given in the programmes in the P&D book?

When I started training, I didnt have any idea of how to pace myself, I'm using McMillian pace calc now for training, but not a McMillian training programme.

Krusty_Clown

seanynova wrote: »

Are training pace guidlines given in the programmes in the P&D book?
When I started training, I didnt have any idea of how to pace myself, I'm using McMillian pace calc now for training, but not a McMillian training programme.

Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I followed the 12 week 55mpw program for a 2:55, but reckon I'll have to step up to a higher mileage program to get 2:4x. I think I'll stick with the 12 weeks, as I'm hoping to carry my endurance (long runs) through to the start of the next program.

Each additional 20mpw increase above 60mpw is worth 5-10min off the marathon time. Below 60mpw an increase of 10mpw would have the same effect. Not much scientific backup for this but seems to hold reasonably true. Hard to know is it really the mileage increase or is it as a result of in general the runner being more serious about their running i.e conscious effort of increased weekly mileage probably means they are in general relooking at their training and making it more optimum.

toomuchdetail

Silly question but is this book as titled "advanced Marathoning" for guys (advanced runnners)with lots of miles and experience under their belt and who want to improve or has it got advanced training plans and advice that a prospective 3:50-4:05 marathon runner might find usefull?
Should I be looking at a P+D book on marathoning without advanced in the title !

TFBubendorfer

toomuchdetail wrote: »

Silly question but is this book as titled "advanced Marathoning" for guys (advanced runnners)with lots of miles and experience under their belt and who want to improve or has it got advanced training plans and advice that a prospective 3:50-4:05 marathon runner might find usefull?
Should I be looking at a P+D book on marathoning without advanced in the title !

As an inexperienced runner I used the first edition of that book to go from 4:06 to 3:28, so it definitely works for that pace range.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Each additional 20mpw increase above 60mpw is worth 5-10min off the marathon time. Below 60mpw an increase of 10mpw would have the same effect. Not much scientific backup for this but seems to hold reasonably true. Hard to know is it really the mileage increase or is it as a result of in general the runner being more serious about their running i.e conscious effort of increased weekly mileage probably means they are in general relooking at their training and making it more optimum.

Indeed it does sound very unscientific to me! I can't see how running additional miles can equate to time savings, when it really depends on how those additional miles are run. i.e. if they are run badly (dead miles) than it could be counter-productive, and marathon times would slow, or how one can stick to exactly the same program, and still improve ones PB by 5 minutes. but I suppose as a general rule of thumb, it may have some value (just not to me!).

SharkTale

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.

Hi Krusty,

Would you mind sharing the spread sheet. I have been using all different sites to gauge LSR pace, Tempo pace, LT pace ect.

Thanks in advance

tunney

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.

Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
VO2 max at 5km pace
???????

Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't

plodder

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well, IIRC (somebody else may have read the book more recently) for the various types of training, they recommend specific heart rate and heart rate reserve ranges. In addition, specific sessions are aimed at specific race paces, e.g.:
LT/Tempo sessions will be at 15K to 1/2 marathon pace (different for everybody)
VO2max sessions (intervals) are done at 5K pace (again, up to the individual to determine this pace).

There are some appendices in the back of the book that describe your 5K and LT pace, based on recent specific race times (again IIRC).

I have a spreadsheet, where I just input my target marathon time, and it calculates the various paces and HR ranges, based on P&T values.

And most long runs are recommended at 10% - 20% below PMP, with others partly/mostly at PMP. You can then check these against the expected heart rate (reserve) they talk about, to see whether you're really on target or not.

I haven't started the program yet, but that's what I hope to do, and am experimenting a bit with the workouts at the moment.

I'd love to see some stats on marathon times vs. weekly mileage though. The ranges (of mileage) for each time would be very interesting. Has anyone ever come across anything like this?

Krusty_Clown

tunney wrote: »

Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
VO2 max at 5km pace
???????

Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't

That's why I reckon the book may not be for you. I don't think you'll get much from the programs, beyond 'run x miles on Tuesday, run y intervals @5K pace on Wedensday'. I reckon your next post on the subject will be to let us all know what a load of horse-shoot it is.

If you're targeting 2:3x I reckon your best bet is the club coaching approach, but if you can't fit that in, at least the book will give you a structure/frame-work.

christeb

tunney wrote: »

Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
VO2 max at 5km pace
???????

Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't

I find the book quite light actually. I've got a scientific background and it doesn't satisfy that "side" of me, doesn't go into as much detail as I might like.

It's been said before, but there is a helluva lot to be said for tergat in here, although his "plans" if you can call them that are more unproven. Tunney - if you want my copy I'll be happy to give / swap it (if you haven't ordered already). Can meet in the CC

kennyb3

tunney wrote: »

Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
VO2 max at 5km pace
???????

Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't

If someone was interested in learning the science behind the correct paces etc, how would they be best going about it? could you recommend a decent book ?

would you feel lab testing is required to get accurate ranges?

Krusty_Clown

SharkTale wrote: »

Hi Krusty,

Would you mind sharing the spread sheet. I have been using all different sites to gauge LSR pace, Tempo pace, LT pace ect.

Thanks in advance

It's very simple I'm afraid. I posted it previously in this thread, where you will also find more debate on traning by HR than you will ever need! You will still need to work out your 5K and 15K/half-mara race paces (though I must confess to using Mcmillan's equivalent of my target marathon pace, which is a big no-no in everyone's book (because using McMillan to determine your training paces is bad :rolleyes:, and because you should train based on current race pace, rather than desired race pace).

SharkTale

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It's very simple I'm afraid. I posted it previously in this thread, where you will also find more debate on traning by HR than you will ever need! You will still need to work out your 5K and 15K/half-mara race paces (though I must confess to using Mcmillan's equivalent of my target marathon pace, which is a big no-no in everyone's book (because using McMillan to determine your training paces is bad :rolleyes:, and because you should train based on current race pace, rather than desired race pace).

Thanks Krusty,
Very good will imput data and see where I am or am not?:eek:

Krusty_Clown

SharkTale wrote: »

Thanks Krusty,
Very good will imput data and see where I am or am not?:eek:

The spreadsheet does nothing except tell you what P&Ds recommended training HR zones are, based on your own heart rate, and also recommends long run and recovery paces based on P&D tables. Nothing more. In fact, it's an older version of the spreadsheet, so won't even calculate you planned race pace. The table at the bottom is a copy and paste from McMillan (and isn't auto-updating either. Crappy, I know).

tunney

christeb wrote: »

I find the book quite light actually. I've got a scientific background and it doesn't satisfy that "side" of me, doesn't go into as much detail as I might like.

It's been said before, but there is a helluva lot to be said for tergat in here, although his "plans" if you can call them that are more unproven. Tunney - if you want my copy I'll be happy to give / swap it (if you haven't ordered already). Can meet in the CC

Cheers but I ordered it this morning Hopefully not another one for my collection of sh!te books

tunney

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That's why I reckon the book may not be for you. I don't think you'll get much from the programs, beyond 'run x miles on Tuesday, run y intervals @5K pace on Wedensday'. I reckon your next post on the subject will be to let us all know what a load of horse-shoot it is.

Ah right, I had thought it would go a little more in the the thinking behind sessions and programmes so you could structure your training accordingly. had assumed the "advanced" bit meant it would be less of a collection of programmes and more of a holistic approach to it. Oh well.....

Gringo78

plodder wrote: »

I'd love to see some stats on marathon times vs. weekly mileage though. The ranges (of mileage) for each time would be very interesting. Has anyone ever come across anything like this?

I saw a study before. As expected, there is really no correlation to times i.e you'll find guys doing 40mpw running 2:50 and guys doing 90mpw struggling to break 3:30.

I think what is clear though - if you do 60mpw, first thing to do is see are you training optimum, a club coach will possibly get more bang for the 60miles than you're presently getting. Then add miles - add them smartly, stay injury free and you will run faster.

Krusty, when I say incresae the mileage by 20mpw, I mean by adding the right type of miles i.e having a proper 90mpw program rather than adding in a few miles here and there to a 70mpw program.

Are there >100mpw programs in the Advanced Marathoning book?

shels4ever

tunney wrote: »

Ah right, I had thought it would go a little more in the the thinking behind sessions and programmes so you could structure your training accordingly. had assumed the "advanced" bit meant it would be less of a collection of programmes and more of a holistic approach to it. Oh well.....

I know a couple of 2:3X marathon runners and most of them do not follow these plans, Thedo take elements of of them but also are coached.

I think you know enough yourself to take some elements from the plan and adapt your training for your 2:3X marathon this autumn ?

Krusty_Clown

Yeah, I reckoned you meant that. I just don't think it's possible to prescribe a general formula for the exact reasons you listed above. You can have a flick through the Advanced Marathoning book here. If you click on chapter 11, it'll show you the 85+ mpw program, which seems to cap at around 107 mpw (and starts on 100mpw!). Maybe you should have looked at this before buying the book Tunney?

shels4ever

Gringo78 wrote: »

I saw a study before. As expected, there is really no correlation to times i.e you'll find guys doing 40mpw running 2:50 and guys doing 90mpw struggling to break 3:30.

I think what is clear though - if you do 60mpw, first thing to do is see are you training optimum, a club coach will possibly get more bang for the 60miles than you're presently getting. Then add miles - add them smartly, stay injury free and you will run faster.

Krusty, when I say incresae the mileage by 20mpw, I mean by adding the right type of miles i.e having a proper 90mpw program rather than adding in a few miles here and there to a 70mpw program.

Are there >100mpw programs in the Advanced Marathoning book?

you can go for 70 to 90 easy with just a couple of doumbe days, If you look at what the 150m mile guys do there are lots and lots of easy miles, Check out the interview fagan did last year,i'll see can dig up the link(but this was 130+ mile weeks)

tunney

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yeah, I reckoned you meant that. I just don't think it's possible to prescribe a general formula for the exact reasons you listed above. You can have a flick through the Advanced Marathoning book here. If you click on chapter 11, it'll show you the 85+ mpw program, which seems to cap at around 107 mpw (and starts on 100mpw!). Maybe you should have looked at this before buying the book Tunney?

Yes I should have looked but didn't

Not looking for an exact formula just ideas

Completely for completely academic reasons!

tunney

shels4ever wrote: »

I know a couple of 2:3X marathon runners and most of them do not follow these plans, Thedo take elements of of them but also are coached.

I think you know enough yourself to take some elements from the plan and adapt your training for your 2:3X marathon this autumn ?

This autumn - I wish, don't have time to get into shape for it, have aload of things on (work and personal) over the summer which means I couldn't commit to proper training (and lifestyle) but no harm in being prepared for another year!

ss43

tunney wrote: »

Maybe I shouldn't have bought that book LT as 1/2 marathon pace
VO2 max at 5km pace
???????

Hopefully the programmes are good cause the science isn't

LT and 1/2 marathon pace are close to the same if you're really good. LT is generally estimated as the pace one can hold for an hour at max. effort.

Trained people can run at their VO2 Max to around 12 mins (if they're really good) can't they so not too far off 5k pace if you're elite. 5k would be the closest race to Vo2 Max.

Maybe that's where the Advanced comes in.