Can a shop keeper refuse your laser card if its for a small amount?

bob2oo7

€3.55 this morning

The shop keep refused to take my laser as he wouldnt make much "profit"

I never carry cash

Main reason is if I have cash, I will spend it. Its a recession and I cant afford to be taking (like in most ATM's) a minimum of €20 out each time will leave me with cash in my wallet that I will spend a lot easier

Anywhoo, he made me take €20 out of the ATM. I was in a hurry, I put up a bit of a fight but didnt have time to argue and also wasnt sure of my consumer rights on this one

Can anyone advise?

If he cannot refuse me, I'm going to go to that shop every time I need something and pay for it by laser....

If I have no rights... then CRAP :mad:

novarock

they are entitled to set a minimum, As far as I know its because they get charged 45 cent a transaction for laser. At the end of the day they are not obliged to even have a machine unfortunately...

MistyCheese

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

Q: Is there a minimum Laser transaction amount for Laser transactions?

A: No, there is no minimum transaction value.

XxMCRxBabyxX

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

That only means that if you have a laser card there's no minimum spend. It doesn't mean shops cannot set a minimum spend as many do.

Afaik it is in their right to set a minimum. I can't imagine as many shops would have a minimum otherwise

You might be interested in this as well

testicle

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

I fail to see the legal bit?

keithclancy

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

By Lasers policy you mean, Legally he can do what he likes i.e. set a minimum spend for Laser.

topper75

It's not legal tender so there is no obligation to accept this form of payment at all.

The euro notes and coins are the only legal tender we have in Ireland.

Legal tender = Legally valid currency that may be offered in payment of a debt and that a creditor must accept.

So, in effect, retailer is doing you a favour by accepting anything else such as credit cards, debit cards, cheques, bankdrafts, vouchers, stamps etc.

whippet

bob2oo7 wrote: »

€3.55 this morning

The shop keep refused to take my laser as he wouldnt make much "profit"

if the retailer has to pay 45c on each laser transaction and if he was a very lucky retailer who can make 10% net profit, he would actually loose money doing business with you.

For arguments sake:

Total purchases €3.55 (incl VAT @ 21%) = €2.93 (ex VAT)

if the retailer was lucky enough to make 10% net margin (after factoring in all overheads - rent, light, heat, wages, insurance etc) his costs would be:

€2.67 (ex VAT). Giving a profit of 26c.

Take away the 45c that is costs to process the laser card and he has a net loss of 19c

complicit

@ OP

Don't be an ass .

It's his shop , he makes the rules .

judas101

I hate when people want to pay for a newspaper or cup of coffe with a laser.

money for small transactions ffs!

ttm

Yes the retailer has to accept it but no one is going to do anything about it if he doesn't :pac:

The retailer wants to attract customers - who spend more than you - so accepts laser, in signing up with laser he agrees to their terms and conditions which include no minimum spend. So techincally he is breaking that contract with the card company, but as I said who is going to do anything about it.

Sounds like a retailer to be avoided anyway, taking a lose on those transactions is just part of business, obviously you don't want to many of them but part of retailing is keeping the customers happy

brianwalshcork

judas101 wrote: »

I hate when people want to pay for a newspaper or cup of coffe with a laser.

money for small transactions ffs!

Does my head in also, but I don't agree that we should have to use paper notes and coins for small transactions - we just need a faster system - debit & credit card transactions just take too long to process.

XxMCRxBabyxX

ttm wrote: »

The retailer wants to attract customers - who spend more than you - so accepts laser, in signing up with laser he agrees to their terms and conditions which include no minimum spend. So techincally he is breaking that contract with the card company, but as I said who is going to do anything about it.

Do you personally have the laser terms and conditions that say this, because otherwise you have no solid proof in your argument as far as i'm concerned. All we know is that laser say on their website that there is no set minimum spend. We haven't seen anything that says a shop cannot set a minimum spend.

squidgey

Similar to the often asked question can a shop refuse a €100 note because it's legal tender.

Legal tender applies only in situations where money is owed. An example would be you want to buy €12 worth of goods in spar and they won't accept a €100. So you leave the goods there and go off and do business with another store.

Then for example you go to Eddie Rockets and order and eat €12 worth of food. Then you wish to pay with €100 note. In that case they must accept the note as payment for the consumed goods ,but they are not under any obligation to give you change.

Joey the lips

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

That does not stop the shopkeeper refusing it. As far as i am aware a shop keeper can refuse any other form of payment than cash.

Shop keepers pay commision on every laser and visa transaction. It has been estimated that the adverage card transaction needs to be at least 10 euro to justify the comission.

ttm

bob2oo7 wrote: »

Anywhoo, he made me take €20 out of the ATM. I was in a hurry, I put up a bit of a fight but didnt have time to argue and also wasnt sure of my consumer rights on this one

Just wondering how anyone other than a mugger can force you to take money out of an ATM? Did you end up paying a transaction fee for using the ATM?

Why didn't you just walk away and leave the shop, even if you bought a sandwich or a coffee (massive profit margin) then you can still leave them and walk away.

VERYinterested

Those ATMs in shops cost the retailer about 10 grand a year to rent :eek: I think he should get rid of the ATM and take the rough with the smooth and accept Laser, swings and roundabouts, cashless society and all that, keep customers sweet! It'd be something else if the op tried to pay with a €50 note.

joewicklow

For 3 years I used a shop close to my office to buy a sandwich and maybe a bag of crisps at lunch time. The average spend was €5 or €6. One of the lads from the office always came with me and spent the same.
We took turns in buying lunch so any time I used Laser the transaction was about €12.
About a month ago I went in on my own and had a sandwich made. The price was €4.50 but when I went to the till and tried to pay the chap behind the counter said the minimum charge with laser was €5 so I needed to buy something else in order for the payment to be made with the card.
I told him he could keep the sambo and I walked out of the shop.

I will never go near that shop again and because I wont go there my colleague will not go either.

€12 per day at least 4 days a week for 46 or 47 weeks a year.

Thats over €2k off that shops turnover.

XxMCRxBabyxX

joewicklow wrote: »

For 3 years I used a shop close to my office to buy a sandwich and maybe a bag of crisps at lunch time. The average spend was €5 or €6. One of the lads from the office always came with me and spent the same.
We took turns in buying lunch so any time I used Laser the transaction was about €12.
About a month ago I went in on my own and had a sandwich made. The price was €4.50 but when I went to the till and tried to pay the chap behind the counter said the minimum charge with laser was €5 so I needed to buy something else in order for the payment to be made with the card.
I told him he could keep the sambo and I walked out of the shop.

I will never go near that shop again and because I wont go there my colleague will not go either.

€12 per day at least 4 days a week for 46 or 47 weeks a year.

Thats over €2k off that shops turnover.

If they have a minimum charge, that's their policy. You can't expect them to just forgoe policy and profits for you because you give them your custom. They don't owe you anything

yoyo

Happened me before in centra, only had around 16 euro in the bank and their ATM only gave out 20s so I had to buy my cans using laser, the cans came to 7 something for the 6 and I had to buy a bar to reach their min laser ammount of 8 quid, bit of a nuisance but I'm fairly sure they have the right to do it

Nick

Penn

I've been stung by the minimum charge thing before, after not realising I had no money in my wallet, but I fail to see how its a big deal and I would certainly not refuse to go into their shop again. As well as the charge they occur for you using your laser card, there is also the fact that it takes longer. I know I'd be annoyed if I spent ages waiting in line while someone buys the paper and a Roy of the Rovers bar with a laser card.

A minimum of €10 seems entirely reasonable to me

fatboypee

I find this thread remarkably amusing. Cash for small transactions ?!

Errrrmmm WHY ???

I travel Europe and Scandinavia extensively with work. Almost everywhere I go (with the exception of here and the UK), nobody has any issue using cards for all transactions. No min spend, no transaction fees passed on, no credit card fees....

Its only here (and the UK) who have yet to emerge from the bl00dy dark ages.
I for one balk at the idea that people (like Ryanair and min charge retaillers) can actively charge me for accessing my money via the use of a card. Whatever the reason for these charges, in my view, its one thing that is seriously holding this economy back.

dudara

These policies can be a nuisance, but they wouldn't put me off a shop or say that I'm not going there again.

The simple fact is that the retailer has to pay for having the laser facility as well as paying per transaction. Therefore a transaction needs to have a certain monetary value for it to be worth the retailer's while.

In fairness, we should have a proper e-purse system here or else, reduce/eliminate the laser fees.

P. Breathnach

ttm wrote: »

Yes the retailer has to accept it but no one is going to do anything about it if he doesn't :pac:
...

That's a strong claim. Except for some particular situations, a retailer is not obliged to deal with you even on a cash basis.

topper75

squidgey wrote: »

Similar to the often asked question can a shop refuse a €100 note because it's legal tender.

Legal tender applies only in situations where money is owed. An example would be you want to buy €12 worth of goods in spar and they won't accept a €100. So you leave the goods there and go off and do business with another store.

Then for example you go to Eddie Rockets and order and eat €12 worth of food. Then you wish to pay with €100 note. In that case they must accept the note as payment for the consumed goods ,but they are not under any obligation to give you change.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Worth knowing as well that legally, if there is a pricetag of €9.99 on an item in a store, that you are actually inviting the store owner to accept €9.99 as your offer when you place it on the counter. The store owner then decides to accept or reject your offer. Of course I have never in my lifetime seen them refuse!
People usualy think that the pricetag is the store owner inviting you to pay that price for it. Not so. The legal term is 'invitation to treat'.

Yakuza

bob2oo7 wrote: »

Main reason is if I have cash, I will spend it. Its a recession and I cant afford to be taking (like in most ATM's) a minimum of €20 out each time will leave me with cash in my wallet that I will spend a lot easier

It's no one's problem but yours that you can't hold on to cash in your wallet.

bob2oo7 wrote: »

Can anyone advise?

Here's my advice: Try a bit of self-discipline, keep a small amount of cash with you and don't be bothering shopkeepers with your plastic for small transactions.

uncleoswald

I don't see why it has to be like this. In New Zealand (and I'm sure elsewhere) you can use your ATM card (not Laser) to pay for anything, any amount. I doesn't actually take any time and lots of people don't really carry money. In fact their smallest coin is a 5c.

Yakuza

Until the banks stop charging on a per-transaction basis (and do you think a bank is going to give up an income stream like that, these days?), or a better micropayment system (integrated into mobile phones or smart cards for example) is rolled out, it's what we're stuck with.

I agree it's not perfect but I think it's handy to have a small amount of cash on me for small purchases. Personally, anything over €20 and it's on the plastic, otherwise I use cash.

ScouseMouse

Just this minute, I had a guy trying to pay for a one day bus ticket with a laser card.

The ticket gives me 4%. That gives me 24 cent.

Out of this I have to pay the staff member etc etc etc.

The laser card would have cost me that in fees not to mention the laser machine, the phone line and the broadband.

I declined the card - so he handed me a fifty euro note.

Problem solved.

Do the maths.

P. Breathnach

superscouse wrote: »

Just this minute, I had a guy trying to pay for a one day bus ticket with a laser card.

The ticket gives me 4%. That gives me 24 cent.

Out of this I have to pay the staff member etc etc etc.

The laser card would have cost me that in fees not to mention the laser machine, the phone line and the broadband.

I declined the card - so he handed me a fifty euro note.

Problem solved.

Do the maths.

I hope you gave him change!

johnnyjb

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

If they have a minimum charge, that's their policy. You can't expect them to just forgoe policy and profits for you because you give them your custom. They don't owe you anything

Thats correct and he doesnt owe them his custom either. How many shops and deli's are there now, take your business else where. Ive ntoiced over the last few years since alot of small corner shops have been put out of business from bigger shops customer service has gone to the dogs.

Your local shop keeper might leave you off if you were short 1 cent and help you in this laser card incident. Lots of shops are full of foreign nationals who could care less if your spending 10 euro a day and keeping them in a job. its like the walmart situation in the states

ScouseMouse

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I hope you gave him change!

D'oh.

I knew I forgot something.

:D:D

spiderpig2k7

My parents own a medium sized retail newsagents. I'm the one who looks after all our IT and the Credit Card Machine comes under that.

The machine is actually costing a huge amount of money and causing a lot of hassle.

i.e.

Rental of the Machines €15 per month per machine (cheapest i've been able to get, other companies charge up to €30)
Merchant Bank Account €30 per month
Phone Line/Broadband €50 per month- used for other things aswell but its still required

Each transaction costs up to 50c and then the bank charge 2.5-3.5% of the money you take in with credit/debit cards.

When you add all this up, you need to be doing a hell of alot of transactions to even break even with the machine.

I can understand consumers frustration but the costs and charges facing retailers is huge. Again its the bloody banks and payment solution people that make all the money, screwing everyone. I do agree that we need to come up with a system that doesn't involve as much charges and that is way faster, but Ireland is behind the times and won't see it for 5 years imo!

Speak Now

squidgey wrote: »

Similar to the often asked question can a shop refuse a €100 note because it's legal tender.

Legal tender applies only in situations where money is owed. An example would be you want to buy €12 worth of goods in spar and they won't accept a €100. So you leave the goods there and go off and do business with another store.

Then for example you go to Eddie Rockets and order and eat €12 worth of food. Then you wish to pay with €100 note. In that case they must accept the note as payment for the consumed goods ,but they are not under any obligation to give you change.

:eek: no change, i know Eddie's is expensive but WTF

91011

spiderpig2k7 wrote: »

i.e.

Rental of the Machines €15 per month per machine (cheapest i've been able to get, other companies charge up to €30)
Merchant Bank Account €30 per month
Phone Line/Broadband €50 per month- used for other things aswell but its still required

Each transaction costs up to 50c and then the bank charge 2.5-3.5% of the money you take in with credit/debit cards.

When you add all this up, you need to be doing a hell of alot of transactions to even break even with the machine.

!

I'd suggest you haggle a bit with your mercant provider or switch.

Maximum you should be paying is

€15 / month rental
2% on credit card transactions
20c on laser transactions
No monthly fee

If you are doing any volume you can get credit cards to 1.25%, 12c on laser & €10 on the machine.

Try www.Luceytechnology.com for a different option!

Dublindude69

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

:eek: no change, i know Eddie's is expensive but WTF

This caught my eye as well, explain the no change bit again?

Also at work we've been told not to take in €100 and higher any more due to the amound of fakes coming in. Apperently the fakes are so good they can't be detected by the pens.

Cabaal

judas101 wrote: »

I hate when people want to pay for a newspaper or cup of coffe with a laser.

money for small transactions ffs!

Whats more annoying is these people hold up the Q in the shop as they try to remember their PIN and then everyone has to wait for the card machine to complete the transaction.....just pay with money ffs!

joewicklow

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

If they have a minimum charge, that's their policy. You can't expect them to just forgoe policy and profits for you because you give them your custom. They don't owe you anything

I dont owe them anything either. Thats why I go elsewhere now.

The guy in the shop knew I went there every day and in the majority of cases I paid with cash.
I do feel sorry for the shops who cannot afford the machines but at the same time the shop that refused my purchase is now losing over 2k a year over €0.50 cent!

calex71

Pet hate of mine is someone using a Lazercard when there is an atm in the shop :mad:

I go to a busy shop several times a week and regularly see this, people trying to use a card when there is a sign clearly stating a €10 minimum spend and then proceed to argue with the assistant.

To be fair to the shop they will wave the minimum spend when the ATM is out of action.

jennnn

I recently put just under 6 euro on my laser card in a chemist and they'd no problem with it. If there's a minimum spend for the transaction to take place, surely they should advertise this and save themselves losing customers?

macy9

How does the retailer have to accept it? Surely basic contract law puts this type of transaction as offeree and offeror. The customer makes an offer which the shopkeeper can accept or reject. In this instance he rejected it.

gerrycollins

i dont have a min spend in my shop but I do cringe at the fellas whe get a bar and a bottle of drink on their laser jesus most people have some cash on them.

I found my business has taken off as the other shop in town does have a min laser spend and charges for top up(i dont). Thankfully i have a great deal with my bank but its up for renewal next month better start haggling.

borderlinemeath

joewicklow wrote: »

I dont owe them anything either. Thats why I go elsewhere now.

The guy in the shop knew I went there every day and in the majority of cases I paid with cash.
I do feel sorry for the shops who cannot afford the machines but at the same time the shop that refused my purchase is now losing over 2k a year over €0.50 cent!

Just because the guy knew you to see, you feel entitled to have store policy waived (that he more than likely has no control over)
A bit petty imo.

blahhh

I work in a shop and we used to say that, we didn't accept cards for transactions under €8, people used to get in such a huff and a lot of times it was people with a paper and a mars bar ffs!

Now the policy is that if your transaction is less than €10 a surcharge of 20c will be added to your total. Most people find it fair but you get the few that shout and call you every name under the sun... over 20c.

I hate the saying "the customer is always right"...

ScouseMouse

blahhh wrote: »

I work in a shop and we used to say that, we didn't accept cards for transactions under €8, people used to get in such a huff and a lot of times it was people with a paper and a mars bar ffs!

Now the policy is that if your transaction is less than €10 a surcharge of 20c will be added to your total. Most people find it fair but you get the few that shout and call you every name under the sun... over 20c.

I hate the saying "the customer is always right"...

I have to agree completely on that. There is always one and the customer is not always right.

dxhound2005

bob2oo7 wrote: »

€3.55 this morning

The shop keep refused to take my laser as he wouldnt make much "profit"

I never carry cash

Main reason is if I have cash, I will spend it. Its a recession and I cant afford to be taking (like in most ATM's) a minimum of €20 out each time will leave me with cash in my wallet that I will spend a lot easier

Anywhoo, he made me take €20 out of the ATM. I was in a hurry, I put up a bit of a fight but didnt have time to argue and also wasnt sure of my consumer rights on this one

Can anyone advise?

If he cannot refuse me, I'm going to go to that shop every time I need something and pay for it by laser....

If I have no rights... then CRAP :mad:

I don't understand this compulsion to spend any cash you have. What would you spend it on, all you needed was whatever you paid the €3.55 for.

rubadub

Joey the lips wrote: »

That does not stop the shopkeeper refusing it. As far as i am aware a shop keeper can refuse any other form of payment than cash.

I thought shop keepers could refuse cash too, invitation to treat and all that.

joewicklow wrote: »

About a month ago I went in on my own and had a sandwich made. The price was €4.50 but when I went to the till and tried to pay the chap behind the counter said the minimum charge with laser was €5 so I needed to buy something else in order for the payment to be made with the card.
I told him he could keep the sambo and I walked out of the shop.

I will never go near that shop again and because I wont go there my colleague will not go either.

Biting off your nose to spite your face there, but people who always pay cash may be glad to see you go, they are in effect subsidising your laser transactions, if everybody paid cash the shop could lower its prices and make the same profit, I like to see shops who do not accept laser. I make a point of paying by CC online when places offer paypal or CC, since I might want to do repeat business and so want them to maximise their profits.

joewicklow wrote: »

The guy in the shop knew I went there every day and in the majority of cases I paid with cash.
I do feel sorry for the shops who cannot afford the machines but at the same time the shop that refused my purchase is now losing over 2k a year over €0.50 cent!

The guy probably had no choice as mentioned, could be computerised to not accept it or could have got disciplined if he did. Also the shop is not losing 2K a year, it is 2K a year of sales, not profit, also for your laser transactions the shop had to fork out money. You are trying to make the shop sound petty for doing this "over 50cent" but you are the one spiting yourself over 50cent.

Joey the lips

rubadub wrote: »

I thought shop keepers could refuse cash too, invitation to treat and all that.


.

Your confusing contract law(Invitation to treat) with methods of payment or reward.

rubadub

Joey the lips wrote: »

Your confusing contract law(Invitation to treat) with methods of payment or reward.

Well I don't know what it falls under but I thought a shopkeeper could refuse to sell you stuff no matter what.

noodler

rubadub wrote: »

Biting off your nose to spite your face there, but people who always pay cash may be glad to see you go, they are in effect subsidising your laser transactions, if everybody paid cash the shop could lower its prices and make the same profit, I like to see shops who do not accept laser. I make a point of paying by CC online when places offer paypal or CC, since I might want to do repeat business and so want them to maximise their profits.

What so everyone is paying 0.0001c more per item because of this guy?

Jesus, now come on!

Joey the lips

rubadub wrote: »

Well I don't know what it falls under but I thought a shopkeeper could refuse to sell you stuff no matter what.

A shop keeper cannot refuse to sell you something on display without a good reason. For example

1. None in stock
2.Not happy at the display price. This is not yet a contract price for those who are going to pull me
3. Your underage or not qualified to handle the goods... eg explosives. alcohol


There are a few other

If a shop keeper refuses to sell you goods because the dont like you this brings in a whole set of discrimination laws... Think travellers rights