Irish DPM - too dark to be effective?

OS119

given the adoption of MPT as a replacement for 'woodland' DPM by the UK military, and that the USMC and US Army are going down the same route, do users of Irish DPM think that it might be time for a re-think?

note this isn't a 'afghanistan-centric' idea, its a fundamental re-appraisal of camouflage and DPM's - my own view is that UK Temperate DPM got so dark, and so 'crowded' that it didn't work outside of a dark, wet, December forestry block in Scotland, whereas as - to my surprise - MTP works better in almost all environments, including Northern European ones like Otterburn, Sennybridge and Thetford. i think its therefore reasonable to believe that its a better DPM than the traditional French, US, UK, Irish, and Dutch temerate DPM, not just for sandy, rocky and dusty places, but for urban, forested, heathland, grassland and mountain as well - all places the IA operates.

your views?

Morpheus

lol

I knew this would come up somewhere....

on the MOI block (E Bde) a few weeks ago, someone told us that the DPM will be replaced force wide in the coming 2 years...

oh how i laughed until my sides hurt...

i love army rumours... apparently it will be a completely new and modern pattern and new uniform design too.

could this be yet another ball hop?

time will tell

oncevotedff

OS119 wrote: »

given the adoption of MPT as a replacement for 'woodland' DPM by the UK military, and that the USMC and US Army are going down the same route, do users of Irish DPM think that it might be time for a re-think?

No.

cyrusdvirus

oncevotedff wrote: »

No.

good point, well made

arybvtcw0eolkf

To answer the OP's question.

IMO its way too dark, turning almost black when it gets wet.

Do I see us spending money to have it replaced anytime soon? - no.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

The DF's current DPM will not be changed in the near future.

I also agree that it is too dark.

On another note, the damn trousers are very badly designed!

Avgas

Good Post Os119, was thinking of chucking up something like this myself but got busy with WORK and Borat nonsense.....and my Crusade to have slat armour fitted to our Pirhanas

The Irish DF could simply ask the (Chinese?) manufacturer to drop the black and replace it with grey, beige or some sort of grey green. This is probably more at our price point these days.

The rush to so called digital camo patterns should be handled carefully as the actual evidence is mixed as to their effectiveness....in theory they are superior...But in practice at distance the colours/patterns tend to blur and produce block slabs of colour...which can stand out...you actually probably want Camos to work most of all at the marginal AK range of 300-400m, closer in their purpose is probably more Combat ID..

The US decision to go with the funky greyish ACU was not that wise...but yes there is a consensus that a light shade and removal of black is the best option. Your 100% there.

However, all this assumes that the key test of combats are their camo looks.. and let's be honest...the coolness factor.... .when in fact protection from weather, fire, and and integration with body armour issues are THE concerns to keep worrying about....

BTW Does anybody seriously know why the Israeli don't use Camo...?

They used to use French style Camos for their paras in the 1960s at least. My guess its a combat recognition issue.

If we really were serious we could explore a simple Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) solutions of sorts...

Example:

NOMEX flight suits and overalls, either Olive Drab or Tan, are a valid option. While not CAMO and not great in every sense of comfort/breathability, they provide good protection from fire...vital as many of our people would be in vehicles or bunkers......USMC used these extensively in Astan and Iraq...and now the game is raised by the issue of a new generation of fire retardant gear (mainly underwear and balaclavas) branded as FROG...which complements nicely their MARPAT....once again USMC is leading the way on small tactical details.....

Whatever we chose we SHOULD NOT look like US, UK or French forces...(our current DPM looks French to many civies in Africa/Balkans) for political reasons and for CID.)

If you really want great camo then the Saab Barracuda people will sell you very expensive ghillie suits which are made from advanced fabrics and have all sorts of properties...but that is more a snipe asset and mega bucks.....AFAIK.

I'd say DF boys and gals will be dressed in the DPMs for some time to come.:(

I can see it even coming down to his'n'hers Lidal leisure track suits.

gungun

Avgas wrote: »

Whatever we chose we SHOULD NOT look like US, UK or French forces...(our current DPM looks French to many civies in Africa/Balkans) for political reasons and for CID.)

i believe we use the woodland dpm out in africa so we dont look like the french (also due to now having a lot of gear made out in desert), as i think they wear their desert camo over there

and even if it came down to everyone wearing one type, say woodland, i dont think rebels would bother looking to check the pattern/would know the difference between the patterns before they start shooting

thats just what i think anyway:)

AbusesToilets

Avgas wrote: »

However, all this assumes that the key test of combats are their camo looks.. and let's be honest...the coolness factor.... .when in fact protection from weather, fire, and and integration with body armour issues are THE concerns to keep worrying about....

Camouflage is the main concern with a combat uniform, which is why so many soldiers bitch about the ACUs. They make troops stand out like a beacon when moving through any terrain that isn't gravel or a couch. It's a force protection issue primarily, otherwise they'd just dress soldiers in jumpsuits or the like.

OS119

Avgas wrote: »

Whatever we chose we SHOULD NOT look like US, UK or French forces...(our current DPM looks French to many civies in Africa/Balkans) for political reasons and for CID.)

i'd challenge anyone to tell the difference at 150 yards between US Woodland, UK/Dutch Temperate DPM, French CE, or Irish DPM in any remotely operational setting.

i'd also suggest that, by and large, locations where not looking like the French/US/UK might be desirable are going to be locations where people arent really used to the idea of a 'uniform' Army in the first place, so they wouldn't be particularly interested in this or that pattern or shade. all they will see is western troops - as indicated by pink skin, uniformity of clothing and equipment, and not carrying AK-47 dirivatives.

one exception to that might be a Irish UN PK mission in Iraq - where not looking like the US/UK would be a smart idea - but i'm not sure that very remote possbility justifies using a combat uniform that doesn't provide much concealment/counter-detection anywhere other than the wettest parts of North-West Europe.

i do like the idea of fiddling with the current colours though - replace the black with a sand and you'd instantly have a pattern of far more use pretty much everywhere, and just allowing it to trickle through as replacements rather than a new bulk order of X thousand sets of clothing would cost almost nothing...

Avgas

My comment about not looking like the French, Brits, etc, was NOT driven by some kind hostility to these forces NOR half an idea that it would be useful for a combat ID purpose.

Your right OS119 at rifle fire distance 'bad people' would probably neither care nor be able to detect the difference..we'd be 'WHITE MAN/FOREIGN/EUROPEAN...etc...


BUT on many PK missions your troops are walking around making hopefully friendly contact with local populations (but not TOO friendly!)...and in that POLITICAL/PR context it is useful to brand yourself as distinctive. People in these settings can quickly pick up on national contingent differences and it can help not to be confused with other larger armies who may have colonial baggage or a different way of operating. Its a political move not a tactical one.

French in Chad have this baggage with certain elements hostile to so called government of Chad. Therefore politically its useful to look a bit different. Ditto others parts of the world re British and US forces.

BTW I thought Irish desert camo was supposed to be issued for Chad...if they are now wearing the dark green camo...what is the point of the desert gear then...?

AbusesToilets says that ACU is good camo for sofas (yes I've seen that photo!). My point entirely....rather than rush to a fancy digital camo uniform....we should maybe worry less about the supposed tactical benefits of camo...and think a bit more about a uniform that gives functional protection..... from fire.....from AK bullets....(through body armour).

You also say the purpose of camo is tactical....I wonder how much of a provable difference it makes tactically....say compared to night vision gear.....clearly it helps if its done right....if its done wrong as the case of ACU shows...it probably makes soldiers stand out more..... remember that once webbing and assorted gear is worn...that actual camo pattern is usually itself quite lost....the overall shade and the final merged block colour at distance is more important...I've seen photos of USMC people in MARPAT in Astan and it works well in the simple sense that it matches the colour of the terrain v.well...

The Israelis, who are not shy of spending money on their armed forces, and know a few things about tactical innovations, don't bother with camo uniforms....BUT they do have those funny floppy massive beret type things...(forget the exact name).....which they stick on their helmets....and it does help blend the helmet into cover....which is important.....I notice with all those NVG mounting slats on US helmets often in black....US troops really stand out sometimes because of such attachments.

Just my tuppence.

iceage

Mitznefet.....Iceage grabs a tissue and wipes his nose..

-aurora

I seriously doubt our dpm will be changed given the state of the country at the moment, the fact its only about 11 years since it was first introduced and the fact that we werent even issued desert camo of the current dpm in chad

Avgas

iceage wrote: »

Mitznefet.....Iceage grabs a tissue and wipes his nose..

Thanks Iceage...eh...hope yer nose is better.

It was bugging me a while what those floppy beret things were...

could we get Irish infantry to improvise their own...is it copyrighted....can we not just knock these off?

Any thoughts...would that be an outrage to DF standards of kit?

concussion

Just use a sandbag...job done!


There seems to be a serious decline in hessian all the same...

Morpheus

Agreed, I could only get myself a sack or two in that plastic crappy knock off material.

You dont need mezfetnetesticfes-whatever... dont you know that all troops are trained to make coneheads out of their helmets with the local foliage

Avgas

Yep fair enough ..bit of mucking around with scraps of netting and hessian would help...

BUT....

Either the hessian or cheapo nylon might burn easily....you probably need at this stage to be thinking of something fire resistant...considering that getting IED'd is now a major risk.......don't think the Israeli flophat (sorry my Hebrew was not my strong point for the leaving!) is fire retardant at all..... (should be)

The Israeli option is probably better at providing a consistent distortion of cover through shape not colour or texture (which usual helmet camo provides)......especially for rocky terrain...indeed it may have been evolved for Golan and Leb fronts.....it creates this wide distorted shape....which blends into cover for troops in the prone position....also useful and used for FIBUA where it blends with rubble formations well....also the wide brim provides some sort of shading for the face as well....bit like the 'jungle' hats our people have worn to Timor, Liberia, Chad, etc, but cooler.

I've often thought you could have a reversible flop hat, with the other side featuring a bright high-viz cross "X" panel and/or a thermal ID X cross panel....depending on situation troops could quickly put these on to prevent fratricide...Israelis in the 1970s sometimes used white masking tape in + formation on the helmet crown, especially in the desert to avoid getting shot at by their own people, especially CAS. Like all CID tactics such gimmicks are open to being compromised by the BAD PEOPLE...of course, but in PK situations it might be useful to have such 'jockey caps'......probably in UN blue or something.....

Just another crazy thought for the day from Avgas.

Morpheus

you probably need at this stage to be thinking of something fire resistant...considering that getting IED'd is now a major risk.......

LOL

Sorry, gettting IEd'd is not a laughing matter

worrying about your headdress being on fire

your foliage going up in great gouts of flame and smoke

as you run around trying to douse it by slapping your helmet

or breakdancing in the sand on your head is though

cos if you GET IED'd, i think your helmet being on fire is a bit further fown the list than your DPMs getting toasted with you IN them... that plus holding onto your arms and legs in all the correct places!

seriously though, fire proof helmet covers is a valid point! As is fireproof DPM.

how fireproof is our current uniform?

Avgas

Well....that is a mature response from a military professional?

You do realise secondary burns are a major feature of IEDs...for survivors....along with brain trauma?

You do realise that at least about 10% of war wounds have always been burns...and often in the facial/head areas...

Burns, even light burns, are often major PTSD triggers and an 'end or career' ticket.

If you get IED'd you actually should expect to survive....if you're in a proper vehicle.

Yes if its megaIED nobody will surivive. All bets are off. Same applies if a 155mm shell lands on your head...but everybody still wears a helmet?

If its an EFP...those directly in the line of blast will be incinerated...those at the back of the vehicle, if its big enough, MAY just survive...in that case vehicle fire will be an immediate threat.... if they are badly burned the combination of blast trauma, burns and other injuries is usually fatal...hence the focus on avoiding anything that will make you BURN...to give some chance.....

Your example of nylon/plastic sacking should create nice dripping melting plastic burns on anybody unlucky enough to be left alive in such a case.

If its the Irish Army of course, you'd probably be dead anyway whatever IED is used because we don't have properly protected vehicles, as I've explained/discussed in another thread.

Irish DPM fire retardant?...Is it NOMEX...or like USMC FROG...?

Your suggestion of sticking plastic nylon on a helmet...frankly that makes me LOL......

You want to go into a war zone with that?

Check out how a serious outfit like USMC approach a serious issue like fire protection in combat...do a search on their FROG gear and related procurements....or just click this:

https://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/news/syscomnews.nsf/StoriesDisplay/AF5265F5A53372728525736700495742?OpenDocument

No mention of break-dancing there.

concussion

Just a note - hessian is a plant textile and behaves much differently to synthetics. You won't get burning plastic dripping everywhere.

Morpheus

okay okay

cool your jets

was just injecting some gutter humor to the discussion...

firstly my "plastic" sand bags are just that, sand bags, used to place soil into when ive dug a shell scrape to place in front of said scrape to provide a small amount of protection from small arms/ shrapnel, at least thats the idea. Also can be used to place over prisoners heads to temporarily dampen their senses - havent got to do that yet

I would never under any circumstance place a plastic sandbag on my head as camoflage!!!! I just use the current dpm cover (which has elastic webbing over it) and place the foliage into that to break up the outline.

My reference to coneheads was in honor of all those guys who go to the glen and stick grass stalks onto their helmets so that it ends up looking like a teepee and consider this good camo!

I have no doubt that an IED is a traumatic event and that after the blast your next worry is going to be what still works on your body and how far can i get from the flames, thats why im wondering about the material used for our DPMs, point to note, some of us wear under armour and dry flo under the uniform... i do believe that far from being fire proof this material is akin to wrapping your self in cling film and jumping into the flames.

Burnt

Morphéus wrote: »

thats why im wondering about the material used for our DPMs, point to note, some of us wear under armour and dry flo under the uniform... i do believe that far from being fire proof this material is akin to wrapping your self in cling film and jumping into the flames.

You should look into getting merrino undergarments such as those produced
by ice breaker etc...

Wool: does not burn readily, does not drip and self extinguishes.

It will also absorb 33-40% of it's weight in moisture before feeling wet,
and still retains it's thermal properties while wet.

It doesn't leave you smelling like a wet dog after two days.

It also doesn't build static charge as readily as snythetics

Avgas

AFAIK synthetic undergarments, or certain brands, were effectively banned at one stage in Iraq....because of increased burns risk......it is one reason why the USMC are spending time and money on what are effectively fire retardant undies.....

Points about Merino wool are very valid...a good solution if fancy FROG type gear is not available yet/too expensive.....

The fact is it would probably be impossible to avoid carrying/wearing stuff that might burn, but the more obviously flammable type fabrics should be avoided.

The real mystery is why something like NOMEX (but with better breathability and toughness), has not been issued generally in modern armies.

I also do not know why so many armies, including it seems our own, do not require vehicle crews to wear NOMEX suits.....

I couldn't find anywhere on the web 'after action' reviews by Marines/Others about the actual pros and cons on wearing NOMEX jump suits...which was tolerated a few years back...SOF have been doing it for years given their heavy use of choppers, etc. I'm sure there is something out there....

And I'm glad to know that the plastic sand bag is nowhere near your head Morpheus!:)

Burnt

Avgas wrote: »

I couldn't find anywhere on the web 'after action' reviews by Marines/Others about the actual pros and cons on wearing NOMEX jump suits...which was tolerated a few years back...SOF have been doing it for years given their heavy use of choppers, etc. I'm sure there is something out there....

What about the experiences of the Brits & RN in the Falklands? Pretty horrific..., while it won't infrom the con's of nomex it clearly demonstrates the pros of
good fire protection for troops and sailors alike, though I would assume; from a postion of ignorance I admitt, that sailors would be more up to speed on this

Avgas

Your right Burnt.....

I first came across the 'burns' issue when reading about the Falklands....and not just the poor Welsh infantrymen on the Logistics ship that got hit with an Exocet....but burns were a big feature for both sides in the land battle proper....white phosphorous (WP) was used by both sides AFAIK...and Argies had plans to air drop Napalm...apparently......

Burns are a big problem.

private2bcadet

well,.. i think the RDF should have the DPM the whole DF have now... im in the reserves and my god does the irish DPM work wonders in ireland. its like chameleon camo haha

but overseas, well,... its a little different... the DPM itself is great, as in shapes and sizes of what some people call the 'leaves' on it are great and effective, but the colour schemes need to be changed for overseas!

they dont need to go changing the DPM, its fine. they just need to start coming up with different colour schemes for the lads going overseas. all they have now is desert, and temperate. they need to look into having dpm's with brighter colours for some places

syklops

Surely it depends on how dark the woodland is?

private2bcadet

syklops wrote: »

Surely it depends on how dark the woodland is?

yea true. its just right for irish woodland though, which is usually of the same darkness

SIRREX

private2bcadet wrote: »

well,.. i think the RDF should have the DPM the whole DF have now

They do.

private2bcadet

SIRREX wrote: »

They do.

ya i know, what i mean is they should have the current dpm, and the pdf should have a different one more suitable for the jobs they do. know what i mean?

SIRREX

private2bcadet wrote: »

ya i know, what i mean is they should have the current dpm, and the pdf should have a different one more suitable for the jobs they do. know what i mean?

I understand where your coming from but this would defeat the current trend to try and bring the kit and equipment of the RDF up to the same standard as PDF

private2bcadet

SIRREX wrote: »

I understand where your coming from but this would defeat the current trend to try and bring the kit and equipment of the RDF up to the same standard as PDF

well not really. it doesnt change the standard, just the image. if the PDF were to get a more appropriate DPM pattern (kinda like what the brits will be getting in 2011) and the RDF stuck with the current one thats more suited to the duties of the reserves then the idea of both having good standard equipment wouldnt be affected at all. good observation though i see where your coming from.

i know i said earlier on this thread that i didnt like the brits new DPM. but turns out i was looking at the wrong one. the brits new DPM would work very well in ireland.

Morpheus

i know i said earlier on this thread that i didnt like the brits new DPM. but turns out i was looking at the wrong one. the brits new DPM would work very well in ireland.

but then we'd look like the british.

having 2 different main uniforms for the defence forces would just cause logistical nightmares not to mention reenforcing the them and us attitude which existed with the OG's and the DPM when they were both in use. Its all the same or none at all... No reason not to have overseas uniforms for different environments but here at home? I have to disagree.

cork2

Morphéus wrote: »

but then we'd look like the british.

having 2 different main uniforms for the defence forces would just cause logistical nightmares not to mention reenforcing the them and us attitude which existed with the OG's and the DPM when they were both in use.

not to mention your bound to get an idiot who shows up with an old smock and a new different pattern pants!!

private2bcadet

Morphéus wrote: »

but then we'd look like the british.

having 2 different main uniforms for the defence forces would just cause logistical nightmares not to mention reenforcing the them and us attitude which existed with the OG's and the DPM when they were both in use. Its all the same or none at all... No reason not to have overseas uniforms for different environments but here at home? I have to disagree.

fair point.

private2bcadet

cork2 wrote: »

not to mention your bound to get an idiot who shows up with an old smock and a new different pattern pants!!

that was a bit of a problem when the brits brought in dpm aswell.
you'd often see photos of brit soldiers up the north with olive green pants and a dpm smock or visa versa. funny stuff

iceage

Your referring to working dress with 82/85 DPM jacket worn with lightweights and NI boots. Very popular trousers, lightweight, as in the title and very comfortable to wear fast drying if they got wet and more inportantly..all the rage back in the 80's

For those of a nervous disposition or prone to epileptic seizures please look away now...especially you Concussion.:P

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgur...a%3DN%26um%3D1

Historical note yes those are DMS and putties..you don't see those everyday

Looked bloody nails mate.

concussion

Linkie no workie!

iceage

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.forces80.com/images/med_gallery_28_11_60115.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forces80.com/webbing_contents.htm&usg=__MSzKPcL5wsz0D3xVcVsRAhtdTEQ=&h=385&w=640&sz=45&hl=en&start=11&um=1&tbnid=UrhEqAOk7IT4MM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3D58%2Bwebbing%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Oops, sorry bout that. Enjoy.:)



Another one for ya.