Police to grease their palms to subsidise drop in income?

Drumpot

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0427/gardai.html

Im sorry but I dont really understand this statement . .

Let me get this straight first, I dont have a problem with Gardai doing mixers, in fact Im not too bothered with this discussion but when I read this I nearly dropped my cornflakes. .

I know the gardai are in a position that could take advantage of the laws, more then others, but whats to stop any employee of any job becoming corrupt if they dont get a salary that they want ? Does that mean they should get their demands met ? Perhaps, this this mean we should keep a closer eye on the force ?

What is enough money for people ? (dont limit that to gardai). I can run a house on less then €1500 a month, with a child and wife (after Mortgage/Loans paid). If a person has 2 or 3 houses, thats their problem, not the taxpayers. Anybody on 30k+ struggling should be able to run a livable home with 2 kids comfortable enough.

I am just disgusted and amazed in equal measure that this point has been made to get something they want. So, if things stay the same (and they dont get what they want) should we not start monitoring the Gardai closer instead of bowing to the demands of potential corrupt employees? I cant believe the psyche of the people in this country, our own gardai will supposedly turn to corruption if they dont get what they feel they are entitled to (or at the very least say it might happen), how have we gotten ourselves into so much trouble with such an upstanding force. . . :rolleyes::mad::eek:

Taxipete29

He is merely pointing out what anyone with any sort of cop on can see for themselves. Gardai are in a unique position of power and one of the main arguments for paying them a generous wage is to negate the possibility of corruption.

There is also the fact that Gardai who fall into serious financial trouble can be fired.

Welease

Taxipete29 wrote: »

He is merely pointing out what anyone with any sort of cop on can see for themselves. Gardai are in a unique position of power and one of the main arguments for paying them a generous wage is to negate the possibility of corruption.

There is also the fact that Gardai who fall into serious financial trouble can be fired.

If they are concerned about corruption they could tackle it in the same manner they suggest tackling assaults on garda... 12 year minimum mandatory sentence. Then again, maybe they are not that bothered

subway

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Gardai are in a unique position of power and one of the main arguments for paying them a generous wage is to negate the possibility of corruption.

can you back that claim up somehow?

the only document i can find refutes it as a standalone policy http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/democracy_and_governance/publications/pdfs/AC_and_Police_Integrity.pdf

most organized crime groups, economic and political elites have sufficient resources to offer bribes that dwarf even the most generous police salary

racso1975

you could pay somebody 100k a year and they'll still be open to corruption! A greedy corrupt person will always be one no matter how much they get paid! I fully agree that the gardai should get paid more but not based on the above arguement!

Drumpot

racso1975 wrote: »

you could pay somebody 100k a year and they'll still be open to corruption! A greedy corrupt person will always be one no matter how much they get paid! I fully agree that the gardai should get paid more but not based on the above arguement!

Sums up my point . . If you are dodgy, you will never have enough . .

That aside, I just think its a poor example to use as an upholder of the law, so you can change the conditions of employment . . Most people who are struggling wiht a family to support or is under financial stress will consider corruption of some sort if they have no other alternatives . . The solution isn't to give them what they want, its to monitor the systems in place to prevent this from happening. .

Again, I have no problem with guards taking on extra jobs, but like other sections of society they are using ridiculous reasoning for championing their cause, I think they have completely lost the plot. .

The_Honeybadger

I think I read somewhere that the average salary for Gardai is over 50k, how much do they want? I know they have suffered due to cuts in overtime, and this coupled with the pension levy etc must really hurt, admittedly, but c'mon it is still a good wage. I'm a little puzzled as to how they are all so strapped for cash that they need to take up part-time work, I firmly believe this to be nothing more than a PR stunt.

Nijmegen

Police in all countries should be watched more closely than any others bar the political leaders themselves. If they step one toe out of line, they should be punished with all the force of the state, and any of this crap should be nipped in the bud.

At the end of the day, when you joined the Gardai it is with open eyes as to the special nature of the organization, and you should uphold your honour and justice with all that you have, regardless of any circumstances.

And in general, they're not poorly paid...

OMD

I shows the Gardai in a very bad light. If someone came on the Gerry Ryan show and said Gardai were corrupt PJ Stone and the rest of the force would be up in arms. Yet here is the GRA saying the only thing stopping gardai becoming corrupt is a few euro a week cut in pay packet.

Drumpot

Had this arguement with a friend before .

I never met a poor guard (by my standards anyways), but it seems, it depends on what your interpretation of poorly paid is . . If its 30k or lower, then Im very poorly paid and always have been (but I get on with things and know I can get by). I have to also say that I never met a guard in the force over 4 years that doesnt have AT LEAST one house . .

€50,000 is more then enough to run a house with 3 kids . . Anybody who says otherwise is living it up somehow (whether its in a big house they dont need etc) . .

People think that 2 -3 holidays a year is an entitlement or the norm . . Seriously WTF . . If i get one holiday a year Im psyched (went to cork for 4 days last year!) .

Big problem is that people still believe that the lifestyle they had 3 or 4 years ago should be maintained (or they should at least have the option) so they have absolutely no compunction about crying foul about how poorly off they are if they cant do things like go out every week or holidays every few months. .

Japer

mickeyk wrote: »

I think I read somewhere that the average salary for Gardai is over 50k,.

Its actually closer to 60k

mickeyk wrote: »

how much do they want?.

as much as possible, plus their gold plated pension after only 30 years

mickeyk wrote: »

I'm a little puzzled as to how they are all so strapped for cash that they need to take up part-time work, I firmly believe this to be nothing more than a PR stunt.

+1

Drumpot

Its funny cause the same argument could be made for top bank execs (if you pay them enough, they wont want to break the law or bend the rules) . . :rolleyes:

PCPhoto

Taxipete29 wrote: »

He is merely pointing out what anyone with any sort of cop on can see for themselves. Gardai are in a unique position of power and one of the main arguments for paying them a generous wage is to negate the possibility of corruption.

There is also the fact that Gardai who fall into serious financial trouble can be fired.

a position which "some" use to their advantage - how many gardai get speeding tickets quashed, how many will quote the law which suits them in an arguement, how many break our driving laws - in a squad car while not en route somewhere.

RichardAnd

Drumpot wrote: »

Big problem is that people still believe that the lifestyle they had 3 or 4 years ago should be maintained (or they should at least have the option) so they have absolutely no compunction about crying foul about how poorly off they are if they cant do things like go out every week or holidays every few months. .

Very true. It reminds me of a report I seen last year on the news. They had interviewed this woman about how the recession if affecting her personally and she said (paraphrasing); "Ohh, it's very, very hard. We used to go out for dinner twice a week but now it's down to twice a month". I don't think I need to add anything to this.

On the subject of bent cops, high wages are not really a deterrent. People who abuse their positions are simply scum and if you paid a crooked guard 100k a week, he would still be "wetting his beak" with the free pints, back handers etc. Why? Well people like that get a kick out of bullying others and throwing their weight around.

Taxipete29

Japer wrote: »

as much as possible, plus their gold plated pension after only 30 years

So how long do you think they should have to work to get the full pension??

Drumpot

Taxipete29 wrote: »

So how long do you think they should have to work to get the full pension??

Doesnt matter how long IMO . . Fact is that they get a good pension at retirement. Most of them deserve it . .

The point is that they are already well looked after during and after employment (theres alot to be said for that) . . It appears that they have gotten used to the perks of their job and just take it for granted . .

Taxipete29

subway wrote: »

can you back that claim up somehow?

the only document i can find refutes it as a standalone policy http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/democracy_and_governance/publications/pdfs/AC_and_Police_Integrity.pdf

Thats very selective quoting. While it refutes it as a STANDALONE policy, it is still accepted and conventional wisdom that salaries are an important component of anti-corruption strategy. I am not sure but that would seem to support what I said.

Taxipete29

Drumpot wrote: »

Doesnt matter how long IMO . . Fact is that they get a good pension at retirement. Most of them deserve it . .

The point is that they are already well looked after during and after employment (theres alot to be said for that) . . It appears that they have gotten used to the perks of their job and just take it for granted . .

Not what I asked. Japer seems to think that 30 years is too short a time to recieve a full pension and I asked for some clarifacation on what he feels is an appropriate timeframe

PCPhoto

mickeyk wrote: »

I'm a little puzzled as to how they are all so strapped for cash that they need to take up part-time work, I firmly believe this to be nothing more than a PR stunt.

because during the "boom" they were all purchasing multiple properties and now they cant make the repayments - but dont want to loose their homes ..... so they are asking the government to help them make the repayments.

Gardai do a tough job - thats true, they are well paid and given loads of "allowances" (compared to other jobs) - the work of a garda may involve a full day "walking the beat" or might involve a busy day arresting common criminals, filing paperwork, taking statements etc.

they are given loans, mortgages and different "rates" because they use their own credit union - St Raphaels (in Dublin anyway) ..... they are given free public transport and entrance into clubs by flashing the "access anywhere" badge - many of them believe they are better than the ordinary person and should be entitled to more than the ordinary person.

Drumpot

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Not what I asked. Japer seems to think that 30 years is too short a time to recieve a full pension and I asked for some clarifacation on what he feels is an appropriate timeframe

I will let Japer answer that one . . Im just making the points that they are already well looked after (whether they believe so or not) and that the stance they have taken on this is ridiculous . .

itsonlywords

racso1975 wrote: »

you could pay somebody 100k a year and they'll still be open to corruption! A greedy corrupt person will always be one no matter how much they get paid! I fully agree that the gardai should get paid more but not based on the above arguement!

More? Sounds like Oliver. They already get overpaid for the most of them are watchmen and security workers. They can retire at 55 on gull pension and most get another job. I believe that if their hard carreer has taxed their bodies while they swan around in patrol cars, then when they reach 55 they should beb moved indoors to clerical duties until they reach retirement age at 65 or 68 when that day arrives. They should not be allowed to take other jobs while serving US. Imagine John Joe going on duty at 8am after finishing his shift in Annables at 3 am. Ok he does what they mostly do and sleeps in the common room or the back of the squad. I dont pay high taxes to pay his sleeping time. I expect a professional force which is not what I am getting at present. I have a neighbout who recently retired as a segeant and during his service, we often saw the deliveries to him at christmas and now I am so sorry that I did not report the crook. He is not unusual. A nephew got himself in a spot of bother and there was a bribe asked for by the cop from his father, in the form of goods. He paid and the charge was dropped. I begged him to report the crook but he was afraid. This is not unusual. I sent an anonymous letter to the Ombudsman naming the member who is dishonest and hopefully they will investigate but not holding out any hope as my letter was not signed.

itsonlywords

PCPhoto wrote: »

because during the "boom" they were all purchasing multiple properties and now they cant make the repayments - but dont want to loose their homes ..... so they are asking the government to help them make the repayments.

Gardai do a tough job - thats true, they are well paid and given loads of "allowances" (compared to other jobs) - the work of a garda may involve a full day "walking the beat" or might involve a busy day arresting common criminals, filing paperwork, taking statements etc.

they are given loans, mortgages and different "rates" because they use their own credit union - St Raphaels (in Dublin anyway) ..... they are given free public transport and entrance into clubs by flashing the "access anywhere" badge - many of them believe they are better than the ordinary person and should be entitled to more than the ordinary person.

Very true. I notice that they are more arrogant also. Glorified watchmen most of them. Going back a few years now but there was a famous detective involved in the Shergar investigation and he was interviewed by the media and was so stupid that the government ordered himn to be hidden. He was the thickest fool ever and sounded like a total bogger. They were previously the most dopey of the country who went for the job, with not too many intelligent ones.

WalterMitty

alot of people went for the gardai, prison officer etc as it is very well paid for low educational and skill requirements and allowed you to borrow a lot for investment properties as you were seen as unsackable and in a job for life. I know several older gardai and they all have multiple properties. It was a good gig for a few decades when houses were cheap and garda pay only rose but not anymore . Any garda with more than one property should not complain.
Actually with this new 2nd home tax is it not possible to get some stats on how many in public sector have 2nd homes? Might shine a bit mor elight on their claims of suffering.

beeno67

Taxipete29 wrote: »

So how long do you think they should have to work to get the full pension??

It is reasonable that no one should get a state pension until they reach the age of 65. Whether they are gaurds, politicians or who ever.

RichardAnd

Why not compare the guards with other counties police officers.

Irish Guard:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Garda_front.jpg

Mexican officer:

http://www.odt.co.nz/files/story/2009/03/a_police_officer_arrives_to_a_state_prison_during__1995416677.jpg


Quite a difference I would say .

itsonlywords

beeno67 wrote: »

It is reasonable that no one should get a state pension until they reach the age of 65. Whether they are gaurds, politicians or who ever.

There appears to finally a stage reached where the public are refusing to accept crap anymore from these people. Cops, politicians etc are now being held to account for their past misdeeds and abuse of the publuic purse. Heard lately that where as before when a cop used to take a days leave to appear as a witness in a court case and then claimed the days wages as expenses, that this in now under review. They are entitled to a days wages for a days work, nothing more and nothing less. They are our workers and paid as such and answerable to us, which they forget or ignore. They want the Garda Ombudsman's office closed as it is obviously getting a bit hot for them. Well cops you dont call the shots on that. Get off your asses and do a days work and shut the f**k up, moaning minnies.

itsonlywords

RichardAnd wrote: »

Why not compare the guards with other counties police officers.

Irish Guard:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Garda_front.jpg

Mexican officer:

http://www.odt.co.nz/files/story/2009/03/a_police_officer_arrives_to_a_state_prison_during__1995416677.jpg


Quite a difference I would say .

Good one. Maybe the thicko garda would look more professional with her earrings :)

Taxipete29

beeno67 wrote: »

It is reasonable that no one should get a state pension until they reach the age of 65. Whether they are gaurds, politicians or who ever.

Guards are forced to retire at a certain age. What would you expect them to live on for the intervening years??

beeno67

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Guards are forced to retire at a certain age. What would you expect them to live on for the intervening years??

Well obviously they should continue working until 65. At present they have to retire at 60 (although gardai themselves want that increased to 63). They should not be allowed to retire at 50 simply because they have done 30 years service.

itsonlywords

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Guards are forced to retire at a certain age. What would you expect them to live on for the intervening years??

A cop can retire at 50 but why should they retire so early. If they are hard worked sitting in the patrol cars for 30 years then they can move indoors to clerical work until they reach normal retirement age and get a normal pension to the value of what they contributed. This will bring savings worth millions. Time we evolved these cops into normal workers and take away this privelage that they have created for themselves.

Jaysoose

Is anybody actually surprised at this attitude?

Its amazing that they somehow feel its acceptable to say that guards may become corrupt to pay their own personal debts but then personal responsibility is in short supply throughout the public service.

Taxipete29

beeno67 wrote: »

They should not be allowed to retire at 50 simply because they have done 30 years service.

Why not??

Taxipete29

Jaysoose wrote: »

Is anybody actually surprised at this attitude?

Its amazing that they somehow feel its acceptable to say that guards may become corrupt to pay their own personal debts but then personal responsibility is in short supply throughout the public service.

Maybe they can borrow some from the private sector. There seems to be an abundance of it there. I am sure Mr Fingleton and his banking buddies would testify to that.

Jaysoose

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Maybe they can borrow some from the private sector. There seems to be an abundance of it there. I am sure Mr Fingleton and his banking buddies would testify to that.

Oh right its somebody elses fault that they borrowed way beyond their means to the point were a small percentage cut in salary menas they cant meet their own responsibilities?

Cant blame the banks for peoples stupidity.

beeno67

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why not??

Because it puts a large financial burden on the rest of us tax payers. I suppose I should clarify it. They can retire all they want. They should not be entitled to a pension at 50. The extra cost of a person retireing at 50 as compared to 65 is huge.

Smiegal

It's pathetic that no moderator has closed this thread. Purely pathetic. To see what the majority of posters have said on the previous page and how they have painted 11,000 individual members with the one brush in such an insulting and abusive way is beyond the realms of what boards should ever be allowed to be used for.

Perhaps those "Moderators" are happy to see this kind of stuff as it fuels debates and hence the hits on there site... If so, (and that's how it looks) then I wonder where the corruption really lies???

fedor.2

god ye are all awful moaners. The prison service will be looking for new recruits later on this year,ye are all more than welcome to apply or is that job just reserved for people with below average intelligence.

Drumpot

Smiegal wrote: »

It's pathetic that no moderator has closed this thread. Purely pathetic. To see what the majority of posters have said on the previous page and how they have painted 11,000 individual members with the one brush in such an insulting and abusive way is beyond the realms of what boards should ever be allowed to be used for.

Perhaps those "Moderators" are happy to see this kind of stuff as it fuels debates and hence the hits on there site... If so, (and that's how it looks) then I wonder where the corruption really lies???

maybe its called freedom of speech . . When certain sections of society are already been well compensated (in relation to irelands financial situation 2010) they leave themselves open to criticism by those of us who see the hypocracy of their protests . .

Not speaking up or complaining about the state of our country (and certain vested interests) is what has caused a majority of this country's problems.

I never said anything about intelligence of a guard . . I take exception with a section of society that apparently doesn't appreciate the benefits that come with its job . . Im disgusted with anybody who considers 35k+ as not enough to run a household and I will say it/post it if I think they are out of line . .

fedor.2

fair enough

Drumpot

fedor.2 wrote: »

fair enough

When a trade union comes out and says "we represent a majority of our members", you have to take it as fact (unless most of their members dont voice their true opinions) . .

In this case, the GRA overstepped the mark IMO and made a poorly chosen point to suggest that a condition of their contract should be changed . . To me, this kind of ignorance highlights how little these people care about or respect the general public (their employers) . . They might aswell of said "Allow us do 2nd jobs or some of us could rob ye" . .

Its a trait that seems to be shared by sections of society that dont respect their employer and feel that their employer should facilitate their every whim and maintain their living standards . . Ive used the word perception to describe where the breakdown in communications happens. . What do you perceive to be fair ? What do you feel you are entitled to ? What you have you will take for granted, what you lose (and took for granted) will suddenly become the most important thing in your life.

zootroid

I too did not like the remarks coming out of the GRA, and a quick look at their website will show that they are quite well paid. If members made poor financial decisions, it's not the state's fault. I can imagine the reaction a worker in the private sector would get by asking for a pay rise on the basis that his rent went up. This situation is not too dissimilar.

Given the state of the country's finances, things are only going to get worse for those on social welfare, and those in the public sector. They had better get used to it.

Idbatterim

What about the hours they will be taking away from private sector workers, with crap pay, no pensions and familys to feed? I suppose that doesnt matter. The same way only number 1 matters to the rest of the PS!

Smiegal

Drumpot wrote: »

To me, this kind of ignorance highlights how little these people care about or respect the general public (their employers) . . They might aswell of said "Allow us do 2nd jobs or some of us could rob ye" . .

Christ Almighty.... What age are you???

Ya know what.... seeing as "free speech" and the fact that "The Moderators" have all but dissapeared here, I may as well do the same as the rest of you on this thread and state one huge generalisation in that all 400,000 people currently out of work are nothing but a bunch of wasters..... and everyone in the private sector are fully to blame for this recession.... Yup.... If Stupid and insulting generalisations are the order of the day then count me in..... and while we're at it..... Ya dont mind if I call it "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" do ya???

Pathetic!!!!

irishh_bob

mickeyk wrote: »

I think I read somewhere that the average salary for Gardai is over 50k, how much do they want? I know they have suffered due to cuts in overtime, and this coupled with the pension levy etc must really hurt, admittedly, but c'mon it is still a good wage. I'm a little puzzled as to how they are all so strapped for cash that they need to take up part-time work, I firmly believe this to be nothing more than a PR stunt.

the average salary for a member of an garda siochanna is 1200 euro per week

its true that guards are finding it tough since the pay cuts and pension levy introduction but this is mainly due to the fact that so many of them are owners of second and third homes , the dogs in the street know this , guards were owners of investment proporties long before the celtic tiger was a kitten

p.s , whats all this about them being allowed to have a second job , half the cops in the country have always had second jobs , the recently retired rank and fiel in my local village was a brickie for the entire thirty years he served , we,ve all heard of the JOBBING cop

danbohan

Smiegal wrote: »

Christ Almighty.... What age are you???

Ya know what.... seeing as "free speech" and the fact that "The Moderators" have all but dissapeared here, I may as well do the same as the rest of you on this thread and state one huge generalisation in that all 400,000 people currently out of work are nothing but a bunch of wasters..... and everyone in the private sector are fully to blame for this recession.... Yup.... If Stupid and insulting generalisations are the order of the day then count me in..... and while we're at it..... Ya dont mind if I call it "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" do ya???

Pathetic!!!!

in third world countrys , the bankers are corrupt , the politicians are corrupt , the clergy are corrupt the police / judicary are corrupt , in ireland 3 out of that 4 are already proven , the 4 th, ie the police/ judicary have just not been exposed yet

Smiegal

danbohan wrote: »

in third world countrys , the bankers are corrupt , the politicians are corrupt , the clergy are corrupt the police / judicary are corrupt , in ireland 3 out of that 4 are already proven , the 4 th, ie the police/ judicary have just not been exposed yet

is that you Jim Corr????

danbohan

Smiegal wrote: »

is that you Jim Corr????

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttttt , ur not supposed to know !

alias141282

"The speech also outlined to the Minister that the Government was truly a Government of national sabotage whose only agenda was to protect economic traitors."

OMG! They are really strong words! Open mutiny in the ranks! :eek:

alias141282

Jaysoose wrote: »

Oh right its somebody elses fault that they borrowed way beyond their means to the point were a small percentage cut in salary menas they cant meet their own responsibilities?

Cant blame the banks for peoples stupidity.

No blame the people, not the banks.

alias141282

simplistic2 wrote: »

The gardai claiming that " we will become corrupt if our pay checks dont remain fat and juicy" is no different then a mafia telling the businesses they are shaking down that " hey if you guys dont add on a few percent we may become corrupt".

Yeah and look at what the govt are saying: through incompetence and gambling we have bankrupt the country and now you, low and middle income earners have to pay for it. No different to landlordism really.

Drumpot

Smiegal wrote: »

Christ Almighty.... What age are you???

Ya know what.... seeing as "free speech" and the fact that "The Moderators" have all but dissapeared here, I may as well do the same as the rest of you on this thread and state one huge generalisation in that all 400,000 people currently out of work are nothing but a bunch of wasters..... and everyone in the private sector are fully to blame for this recession.... Yup.... If Stupid and insulting generalisations are the order of the day then count me in..... and while we're at it..... Ya dont mind if I call it "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" do ya???

Pathetic!!!!

So the Police union dont represent the police force? You are completely missing my very simple point (in favour of picking out one line sentances that either highlight your own ignorance of inability to understand my point). .

The union represents the policeforce and I assume are being paid by their members to say what their members think . . Therefore its fair to assume that this is the attitude of a majority of the workforce ..

Your point on the unemployed is completely stupid and out of context and based on a general mindset of the narrow minded. Mine is based on the actual words (not mine), of the body that represents the garda (and whom they support) . . Remind me again how they are similar . .