Province v Country

myflipflops

there's no doubt that passion levels run a good deal higher among fans of club and province than those of country.

This quote from the below article got me thinking. Am I more passionate at a Leinster game than at an Ireland game?

The answer is probably yes. Maybe it is because of the more sedate and fair weather (prawn sandwich??!!) nature of fans at internationals but I think it is definately true.

So there's the question - do you get more joy and omit more passion from watching Connacht/Munster/Ulster/Leinster or from watching ireland, either in person or on the TV.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_6118204,00.html

phog

No option for club rugby :eek:

Please stop these threads. Everyone shouts for their province and their country and after that its like apples and oranges. Don't let people come on here saying its always (insert whichever of the four provinces is appropriate) for me first and then Ireland. The fact is the provinces are only around a few years and before that it was a few interpro games and AIL games. I can understand someone saying a supporters/players club like for example Shannon, St. Mary's, Galwegians, Dungannon etc. would have a greater connection with people than their country but despite the success the provinces are only around in a serious capacity for a few years and can't be taken in comparison against the national team which has been around for more than a century.

Only my opinion which I'm sure will be shot down.:D

inbodwetrust

For me I am predominatly a Leinster fan as the username suggests, but I always like to see the other provinces do well in European competitions. Some of my friends that are Leinster fans would support the team playing Munster in Europe and I dont understand this form of thinking.

I am a proud Irish man and for this reason more passionate supporting Ireland

myflipflops

phog wrote: »

No option for club rugby :eek:

Apologies, should have added. It comes from playing my club rugby at a junior club level. No AIL team that i support so it slipped my mind.

Obviously playing for my old club or supporting the other teams was one of the most important.

PhatPiggins

Ireland first even thought he matches are generally dour in comparison to the HC.

myflipflops

Borders no.2 wrote: »

The fact is the provinces are only around a few years and before that it was a few interpro games and AIL games. I can understand someone saying a supporters/players club like for example Shannon, St. Mary's, Galwegians, Dungannon etc. would have a greater connection with people than their country but despite the success the provinces are only around in a serious capacity for a few years

I'm 26 and have been following Leinster in a serious capacity since i was 17 (the year after I really got into rugby properly).

That's a major chunk of my life and all my adult life to date. I think it's enough time to develop a proper connection to it.

I think it's a relevant discussion. Rugby is one of 2 team sports (along with cricket) where International rugby reamins the absolute pinnacle of the game. A move away from this would have a huge impact on the game worldwide in a lot of ways therefore the club v country debate is important. It's not just Ireland either, the Super 14, Heineken Cup, Premiership, Magners League are all getting bigger and bigger. I say province v country specifically because this is an Irish board so it's most relevant.

thomond2006

1. Munster
2. Ireland
3. Connacht

Judgement Day

It's an interesting one and something I have been considering quite a lot of late. Like many others I used to have little or no interest in Provincial rugby but since being introduced to Heineken Cup rugby by a Scot (!) I find myself more and more obsessed with it and view the intrusion of the Six Nations in the middle of the tournament as a slight nuisance. That said, once the World Cup hoves into view I suspect my interest in that tournament will become paramount - fickle, that's me. The funny thing is, is that for years parochialism was one of my biggest dislikes about the GAA and now I find myself caught up in it big time and it's going to take me a long time to recover from the 'three in a row' defeats by Leinster and I'm a Munster fan who's not even from Munster. Saturday's debacle against Ospreys made me want to throw the laptop out the window.

chupacabra

Its all the same to me. I will support my province, country and club to the same level. I also give my support equally to all the other provinces when they aren't playing munster. And i will always, always root for the underdog when i have no vested interest in a game.

Risteard

I support Munster and Ireland equally. So I picked three.

On one hand, I get to go to more Munster matches so am able to enjoy atmosphere there more often.

On the other hand, Ireland plays a lot less frequently than Munster so when they play it's more 'special' if you will, especially knowing that in most cases there's only one chance to beat a team before Ireland play them again the following year or in a couple of months.

durkadurka

Depends on time of year. Feb, march and november its all ireland and then every other time its all leinster.

the clubbish nature of the provinces, and weekly games, engenders a clubbish supporters loyalty.there's more of a connection between your province and you too.

even if you do come from a rubbish province like munster.

I'm sorry, i'm sorry!

couldn't resist it.

tolosenc

1. Ireland
2. Leinster
3. Toulouse

Podge_irl

It's certainly become a more pertinent question of late, and a more difficult one to answer. For the longest time I was Ireland over province every step of the way, but the fact of the matter is that I get to go to any Leinster game I want and get to see the players far more often. The parochial nature of it helps as it lets one strike up a conversation with a Munster man, or Ulster man (or gal) and have some banter. Suppprting Leinster has both the parochialism of GAA and the international appeal of Irish rugby or soccer. There is also the fact that Leinster/Munster have achieved their ultimate goals (the HEC) while Ireland have not achieved theirs (the RWC).

All that said, as enticing and enthralling as supporting Leinster is, I can't help but feel a greater sense of smugness/happiness when Ireland accomplish something. It is especially important to me as I live abroad. The entire Irish community - Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and non-rugby supporters get involved in the 6N. The entire country gets a lift from the Grand Slam and the GS was one of the most enjoyable days I have had so far in the UK as all my Irish friends came together to celebrate it. What brings Irish people together is stronger than what separates us.

I view my support of Leinster almost as a guilty pleasure at times. I love the team, but it means so much more when you're back home or when you're having some banter with the family. Ireland as a team are so much more - they're fully representative and represent our country on a world stage. All of the island can get behind them, and that is a rare and wonderful thing.

toomevara

Podge_irl wrote: »

I view my support of Leinster almost as a guilty pleasure at times. I love the team, but it means so much more when you're back home or when you're having some banter with the family. Ireland as a team are so much more - they're fully representative and represent our country on a world stage. All of the island can get behind them, and that is a rare and wonderful thing.

There it is in a nutshell. Excellent post.

durkadurka

toomevara wrote: »

There it is in a nutshell. Excellent post.

When i lived abroad i was more patriotic than i am now i'm back in ireland so it stands to reason. When you're at home you're bantering with munstermen that you work with, but if you're in england you're trying to wipe that smug smile off their faces in twickers...

toomevara

durkadurka wrote: »

When i lived abroad i was more patriotic than i am now i'm back in ireland so it stands to reason. When you're at home you're bantering with munstermen that you work with, but if you're in england you're trying to wipe that smug smile off their faces in twickers...

Yeah, but it gets even weirder when you're supporting a GP team week in/week out and they come up against Irish opposition. Travelling to the Leinster/LI game in Twickers was a weird one for me, its just bizzare to be shouting for an English team against an Irish one, but thats how it goes I guess.

Its also weird if you're an RL fan like me, you watch your team in my case Leeds, follow them and then when they line out in an England shirt what can you do but cheer them on? Its pretty easy when they're playing the kiwis as their favourite term of abuse for the Aussies, as I discovered at the OZ/NZ clash at the stoop this year is 'f**cking micks', but when they play against the Roos I do feel a wee bit conflicted....though in cricket I always support England, no question. What a tangled web we weave.

Tim Robbins

Traditionally I would have gone for Ireland without a doubt but now it's Leinster. My reasons:
1. I hate the way there is so much corporate associated with international matches.
2. I hate all the Munster V Leinster debates about the Irish team. It's like that battle is more important than the Irish team itself.
3. I prefer the way Leinster play.
4. I love watching Rugby and not having to put up with Tom McGuirk and George Hook. Setanta's coverage is excellent. RTE's has too much hype not enough substance.

who the fug

London Irish
Munster
Ireland

Like toomevara found it well weird shouting for LI v Leinster, but that lasted for 2 seconds

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. I hate the way there is so much corporate associated with international matches.

It really kills the vibe doesnt it? I reckon its to blame in part for the shocking atmosphere at the internationals. At a GAA match you couldnt hear yourself think but for ruggers you could hear a pin drop.
Its not like that at Thomond, the RDS, Ravenhill or even the Sportsground.

Im finding myself preferring the province ahead of the national team.

andyman

Leinster
Ireland
Belvo

anonymous_joe

I wouldn't love Ireland more nor less than Leinster.

However, I would enjoy both in different ways.

Ireland games are usually a massive occasion. Last time I watched a 'small' Ireland game, was the Fiji game in the RDS, but by and large, I've been watching Ireland games in Croke Park lately, and they're always very very big games.

Leinster play lots of small games (and a good few big ones too) and there's a different vibe for those. Also, I do find it hard to seperate Leinster games from 'RDS, pub, mate's apartment, town.' So it's more of a social thing in some regards. But there's also something to be said for just being in the RDS for a good game and seeing players at a level with a little bit less pressure.

toomevara

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Traditionally I would have gone for Ireland without a doubt but now it's Leinster. My reasons:
1. I hate the way there is so much corporate associated with international matches.
2. I hate all the Munster V Leinster debates about the Irish team. It's like that battle is more important than the Irish team itself.
3. I prefer the way Leinster play.
4. I love watching Rugby and not having to put up with Tom McGuirk and George Hook. Setanta's coverage is excellent. RTE's has too much hype not enough substance.

Agree 100% with your first two points. The corporate stuff associated with rugby at England internationals is even worse, and many are blaming excessive corporatisation behind the recent funereal atmosphere at the cabbage patch...i.e. too many people who dont give a sh1t about rugby and dont know the first thing about it taking up seats and pricing out the true fan.

As for point two, thoroughly sick of that to the point where its become so toxic that I couldn't be arsed with it at all.

JustinDee

Regardless of what I do for a living, its always been International first and whatever the branches do second.
Thats what I've always loved about the game.
I don't follow any province nor look down on any province and never have.
I just want an Irish winner in international (senior, underage, women), ERC, CL, B&I Cup etc.

JustinDee

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. I hate the way there is so much corporate associated with international matches

The largest allocation of tickets to an Ireland international no matter the stadium is actually distributed to the clubs.
I've been at stinker games atmosphere-wise when the game was allegedly 'amateur'.
No corporate. No openly professional game.

Tim Robbins

JustinDee wrote: »

The largest allocation of tickets to an Ireland international no matter the stadium is actually distributed to the clubs.

And the clubs give them to all their volunteers who work behind the bar for free and mark out the pitches?
Me *rse. Many of them give their allocation to sponsors.

I've been at stinker games atmosphere-wise when the game was allegedly 'amateur'.
No corporate. No openly professional game.

Yeah and at least you could have a chat with the people sitting around you about what a cr*p game it was rather than a few suits who hadn't a clue.

JustinDee

Tim Robbins wrote: »

And the clubs give them to all their volunteers who work behind the bar for free and mark out the pitches?
Me *rse. Many of them give their allocation to sponsors

Hey, I'm as anti-scalping as the next. My point is that the clubs have always received the largest allocation and what they do with their tickets has not changed since or before 1995.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah and at least you could have a chat with the people sitting around you about what a cr*p game it was rather than a few suits who hadn't a clue.

I think you're generalising a little here. The effer who is yelling constantly (and incorrectly) at ref decisions, endlessly blocking the view heading to the lavs or arriving late/leaving early isn't necessarily the corporate junket bod. In fact, as far back as I can remember at rugby union games, this weak version of a fan has always been in the stands. The worst idiot I've ever been close to whalloping at a game was a clubbie.
On the other hand, my own mother, for example, never had an interest in the sport before she had to organise business contacts to some games. Now she never misses a home match and goes to one away game per year.

Bit harsh to generalise on blocks of fans who go to games, in my opinion. There are certain types but I don't think clubbies are any better than a pure novice or someone who has no previous interest in a game at times.

The next time I have an armchair referee who obviously bears no clue of the game bellowing in my ear in the row behind me, I won't even stop to wonder if he's involved with the game or not.

thomond2006

The upcoming World Cup has a big role to play in the future of international rugby.

At the moment, the HEC pisses on the international scene in terms of quality. Case in point the Quarter-Final Weekend.

For me, the Heineken Cup is a bigger deal than the Six Nations. Much more exciting IMO.

d'Oracle

I support Leinster, I support Ireland.

End of really.
No desire to build a hierarchy between the two.

I cheer for the other provinces when they play.
Not sure if that makes me a real fan or not.

JustinDee

thomond2006 wrote: »

At the moment, the HEC pisses on the international scene in terms of quality. Case in point the Quarter-Final Weekend

I like to see players play at the highest level and see how they do.
ERC level is not the pinnacle of the sport.

If the Heineken Cup was played over five weeks in a similar format to the 6N, you'd notice the difference.
If the Six Nations was played end of April/May the game would be different as conditions favour the better rugby.

No worries though. You see it different.

toomevara

thomond2006 wrote: »

At the moment, the HEC pisses on the international scene in terms of quality. Case in point the Quarter-Final Weekend.

For me, the Heineken Cup is a bigger deal than the Six Nations. Much more exciting IMO.

No question, the HEC is the marquee competition in world rugby, nothing else comes close, which has interesting ramifications for the future of the game. The 6N has been generally (with a few notable clashes) dire for the last few years, and is living on past glories and a rapidly fading reputation/the pagentry of international competition. Certainly in terms of the rugby on the pitch its generally a level below anything the HEC produces from the QF's on...

shawpower

JustinDee wrote: »

Regardless of what I do for a living, its always been International first and whatever the branches do second

I'm not quite following the reference to your job here, or its relevance. Do you work for the IRFU or one of the branches. Sorry if this is common knowledge around the boards...

shawpower

This is a tough question for me. I've been to pretty much every home Ireland and Leinser match over the past 6-7 years, and quite a few of the away ones.

Before last year, I'd seen Ireland trouncing England in Croker, but being trounced in Lansdowne when Martin J did his Presidential insult. I've seen us beat France amazingly, but getting beat by Vincent Clerc also. I've seen Leinster win the Celtic Cup, and put in some amazing wins down the years. But also see us getting hockey'd by Munster in 06 and flop against Perpignan as well. Overall it's been a bumpy ride, with the overlying trend being underachievement. Probably Ireland shaded it overall.

However, last year I got to celebrate the GS and HEC. I was in Murrayfield, but not in Cardiff. Both were amazing experiences and caused huge celebrations. I don't know whether I can really say which I prefer, but possibly Leinster/Murrayfield winning edged it for me. So perhaps I should vote for Province.

I do agree that the atmosphere in Croker (in particular) has been appalling so I certainly enjoy the games in the RDS more, and I'm sure the Munster contingent think the same over Thomond v Croker.

molloyjh

This is such a tough one for me to be honest. And I think many have touched on the reasons why.

I voted for the "much of a muchness" option as I do shout just as loudly and passionately for both. However in many ways I've found myself feeling more Leinster than Ireland of late.

Thomand mentioned just how much better the HEC has proven this year over the 6N. And that's part of it. But the most important part I find is the accessability.

I didn't go to any of the 6N games this year. The tickets were just too expensive. And after the England game in Croker last year I wasn't upset by the fact I didn't go to a game. The atmosphere was poor. The thought of forking out nearly €100 (tickets and a beer or two at the game) to see the Italy game just didn't seem worth it

Compare that to the Leinster set-up. The season tickets are €239 at the moment for the Angelsea Terrace. For that we have access to the 3 home HEC games, all home ML games and home B&I cup games. That's some serious bang for your buck. And despite the nay-sayers the ML has provided some cracking rugby this year. The HEC pool games were great too and then the QF a few weeks ago where tickets were €35, that was some show. The ACM support were truly amazing. Getting to a game is easy and affordable.

And once I'm there I have a regular spot surrounded by more often than not the same crowd of people. We're right beside the players as they come in and out of the dressing rooms and the atmosphere is fantastic. It's far more social than the internationals. And the fact that it happens so much more often really makes a difference.

So over all I'm as passionate about both, but I find the provincial level a far more rewarding and enjoyable experience overall. They are 2 entirely different beasts from that perspective.

Peter B

From as passion point of view I've always thought the atmosphere is far better at provincial matches so I would definitely have to go for province above country.

JustinDee

toomevara wrote: »

No question, the HEC is the marquee competition in world rugby

And in the cases of non-privately owned teams, the international game funds the ERC/CL/GP teams.

outwest

toome the super 14 is the top rugby in the world.



it connacht first then ireland,

thomond2006

outwest wrote: »

toome the super 14 is the top rugby in the world.

I wouldn't call Chiefs vs Lions a "top" match nor Cheetahs or Lions "top" teams.

toomevara

outwest wrote: »

toome the super 14 is the top rugby in the world.

You might have the advantage on me here outwest as I'd have to say I don't watch too much of it....seen a few games this season, wasn't overly impressed, no structure, depowered scrummaging and lineouts, just a lot of ruck'n'rush. Not really what I expect to see in a game of rugby union, also in terms of attendances/atmosphere didn't seem to have the edge on the HEC.

Possibly with the introduction of the Argies things might improve a bit and spice it up...(having said that the skill levels and fitness of the players in open play is impressive, and probably greater than our lot) but given a choice between a Heino game and an s14 encounter, personally I'd pick the HEC game any day of the week and once it gets to the quarters, well for me its like IV heroin...there's no way in hell I'd ever feel that way about he s14!:D

smurphy29

I would say it's splitting hairs between the two - I became weepie after the Grand Slam and Leinster's HEC win.

But I will say that the pendulum is swinging the way of the province for a number of reasons, principally that the HEC is so exciting, varied and glamorous. Great venues (San Sebastian), wonderful fans (Clermont), great format (bonus points) and for some intangible reason, teams adopt a much more attacking menataility than in other tournaments, which makes for great matches (all the QFs).

I don't rate Stephen Jones as a writer, but I thought his article at the weekend comparing the HEC with the staid and dull Six Nations was spot on. In particular his points about the players being part of their communities when they're playing for their clubs / provinces. We've all been out in the pubs when at some stage some of the team roll in after a HEC game, but after internationals it's on the bus and back to whatever lavish hotel they're staying in. I think the fans feel a closeness to their province which perhaps they don't have to the national team.

profitius

Ireland don't compete with the provinces so its something completely different.

I think most are choosing the provinces because the provinces play more often and theres more excitment. Ireland play a few times a year and thats that.

International rugby also suffers from the shortage of top class teams. 6 in Europe and another few elsewhere. This means Ireland are constantly playing the same teams over and over again.

If the provinces were going bad and Ireland had a great world cup I'm sure people would prefer Ireland. International rugby is usually not as exciting as the HEC but the world cup is by far the biggest tournament.

I'm a big Ireland and Munster fan but I'll also cheer on the other provinces too.

I support Leinster and Ireland. I also have a serious interest in the other provinces as they are all feeding into the Irish team.

I gladly watch Ospreys matches to keep an eye on Tommy Bowe, and regularly catch up with GP matches when Geordan Murphy does well.

I'll suport any Irish team vs any non Irish team every day of the week.

I hope Munster burst through to the final, I hope Toulon take a hiding off Connacht this weekend, and I hope Leinster can make it an even better weekend for Irish rugby supporters too.

I will never have to choose between my allegiance for Leinster or Ireland, as they will never play each other.

toomevara

smurphy29 wrote: »

I don't rate Stephen Jones as a writer, but I thought his article at the weekend comparing the HEC with the staid and dull Six Nations was spot on.

Got a link? fancy a read of that...

sock puppet

outwest wrote: »

toome the super 14 is the top rugby in the world.



it connacht first then ireland,

The quality is better now, but I hope it stays that way after the world cup.

Also for everyone saying how great the HEC is does no one remember last year's quarter finals? The Munster-Ospreys match was over before it began, Cardiff-Toulouse would have sent you to sleep, Bath-Leicester was a pretty good match and Harlequins-Leinster was decent but the finishing from both sides was piss poor. This year's quarter finals produced better rugby than the Six Nations but there's no guarentee it'll be the same next year.

Digifriendly

sock puppet wrote: »

The quality is better now, but I hope it stays that way after the world cup.

Also for everyone saying how great the HEC is does no one remember last year's quarter finals? The Munster-Ospreys match was over before it began, Cardiff-Toulouse would have sent you to sleep, Bath-Leicester was a pretty good match and Harlequins-Leinster was decent but the finishing from both sides was piss poor. This year's quarter finals produced better rugby than the Six Nations but there's no guarentee it'll be the same next year.

You forgot to mention the drama of the blood sub! Now that did put the HEC on another level !!

smurphy29

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article7100664.ece

Link to article referred to above. Should have posted originally.

molloyjh

sock puppet wrote: »

The quality is better now, but I hope it stays that way after the world cup.

Also for everyone saying how great the HEC is does no one remember last year's quarter finals? The Munster-Ospreys match was over before it began, Cardiff-Toulouse would have sent you to sleep, Bath-Leicester was a pretty good match and Harlequins-Leinster was decent but the finishing from both sides was piss poor. This year's quarter finals produced better rugby than the Six Nations but there's no guarentee it'll be the same next year.

I was over in London for the QF against Quinns last year and watched Munster play some amazing rugby to beat the Ospreys before our match. Yes they ran riot that day, but they did so with plenty of style and as an Irishman I loved watching it (although a few in the pub were giving me dirty looks along the lines of "if they win we have to play them in the SF so stop cheering for them").

Maybe the Leinster game was different on the box, but the atmosphere at the game was electric. The Quinns biggest mistake was lumping all of the Leinster support into one area. We made buckets of noise and drowned them out. It was great to see the lads show their defensive mettle too, so from a supporters point of view on the day it was a great game.

I def think provincial and club rugby is going from strength to strength at the moment. It's more fun to go to a Leinster game (for me anyway) than an Ireland one. That said for the GS last year I was incredibly emotional too and watching that game against Wales was one of the stand out moments of my life so far!

damselnat

molloyjh wrote: »

IIt's more fun to go to a Leinster game (for me anyway) than an Ireland one.

QFT

The atmosphere at provincial games at better, it's cheaper and the quality of the rugby on display is higher, pretty much everything everyone has already said

I still voted both as I love the coming-together when a country plays and the sense of solidarity and achievement when the country wins, but there is a definite sense of close-ness with provincial rugby that international lacks

Macsimus

very tough question indeed - its like having to choose between a juicy rare rib eye and a roast chicken dinner with goose fat roasties (sorry its the end of workday and im starving)

as lots have said the atmosphere at Irish games has gone to pot - ive been to lots of the 6n home games over the last 4-5 yrs and only 43-13 really hit the mark atmosphere wise(missed ire v fra 09). While Leinster games nearly always have nice raucous atmosphere going on.

At the end of the day though, I had to go for Ireland - theres just nothing like seeing your country stand up and be counted on the world stage.

Ive been wracking my brain since i saw this thread trying to decide which i'd prefer: Leinster to do the double this year or Ireland to beat the all blacks and I think I'd have to go for Ireland v the AB's ... so theres your answer for ya

What about other posters, would you prefer Ireland to get that monkey off its back or for your province to win a double???

sock puppet

molloyjh wrote: »

I was over in London for the QF against Quinns last year and watched Munster play some amazing rugby to beat the Ospreys before our match. Yes they ran riot that day, but they did so with plenty of style and as an Irishman I loved watching it (although a few in the pub were giving me dirty looks along the lines of "if they win we have to play them in the SF so stop cheering for them").

Maybe the Leinster game was different on the box, but the atmosphere at the game was electric. The Quinns biggest mistake was lumping all of the Leinster support into one area. We made buckets of noise and drowned them out. It was great to see the lads show their defensive mettle too, so from a supporters point of view on the day it was a great game.

I def think provincial and club rugby is going from strength to strength at the moment. It's more fun to go to a Leinster game (for me anyway) than an Ireland one. That said for the GS last year I was incredibly emotional too and watching that game against Wales was one of the stand out moments of my life so far!

Leinster's defence was immense yes, but for the amount of possesion Harlequins had in our 22 5 points is a poor return. Similarly a couple of wrong options and errors cost Leinster 1 or 2 tries. It was a good game but nowhere near international rugby imo. In terms of atmosphere I'm sure it was great. The Leinster support was certainly audible over the tv.

toomevara

smurphy29 wrote: »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article7100664.ece

Link to article referred to above. Should have posted originally.

Thanks for that, excellent article, and though I'd have my ahem, 'philosophical' differences with Mr Jones, i'd say on this occasion he's 100% correct.