Sell the Vatican, Feed the world

Graces7

PDN wrote: »

Then why deny that joy on a more consistent basis to those wealthy people who feed many for not just one day but for day after day?

If a millionaire gave away all his wealth tomorrow then all the poor in the world could be fed for what, a day? (Well, actually few if any would be fed unless a percentage of the money was also used to distribute it, which requires administration).

I think it is a much better, and more godly, use of that millionaire's God-given talents for him to continue to prosper in business (providing it is by ethical means) and to use his wealth and influence to develop sustainable aid programmes that enable the poor to become poor no longer.

For example, I am involved in projects that help impoverished villagers in Africa (as a volunteer worker, not a millionaire!). We dig wells in villages that have no running water. It is a wonderful thing to see the faces of the villagers (particularly the poor women who spend the best part of their waking hours carrying jars of water from a muddy pool several kilometeres away) when that well first pumps clean water to their villages. Then we help them develop fish farms and snail farms so their villages will have sustainable income. Then we see their children dressed in proper clothes instead of rags.

But how do these things take place? Because we encourage Christians here in Ireland to see their relative prosperity as a gift from God, and one that carries a responsibility to help others. We don't tell them that they must give up their houses or possessions, or else they are unspiritual. But we encourage them to experience the joy of giving, by realising that a comparatively small gift can help an entire village become financially self-sufficient. Small acts of kindness thereby provide lasting benefits to others. Schoolteachers volunteer to stand all day packing bags at the checkouts in Tescos and thereby collect donations. A Garda and his wife celebrate their wedding anniversary but request that everyone coming to the anniversary party to make a donation to dig a well rather than bringing the customary anniversary present.

Graces7, if you feel that God wants you to give up absolutely everything then that's great. Fair play to you. I really hope that works well for you.

But, and it may not be intentional, you do tend to come across on this forum as somehow judging anyone else as unspiritual or selfish who believes God has a different plan for their lives. This may be an unfortunate distortion caused by the medium of an internet discussion board, and in real life you might be a very humble and gracious person.

"Let not your right hand know what your left is doing"

And of course you are misinterpreting what I am saying. And not basing your ideas on the teachings of Jesus.

ISAW

Graces7 wrote: »

These figures are wildy inaccurate and take no account of the millions stashed away in the banks.

Which banks? Im not aware clergy have secret accounts with personal monies stashed away. are you?

Also the life style is rich; all those ornate robes alone cost a small fortune.

no it isn't really. In fact when JPII met the Deli Lama he asked thing "what are those things you are wearing" The Deli Lama replied "they are reasonably priced and last for ages and are kind to the feet they are called Dr Martens" The Pope put in a big order for the whole Vatican. this was before they were trendy boots but the Pope isn't a fashion follower anyway.

is this consonant with the spiritual leader of a Church founded by Jesus?

How isnt it?

Why is the Vatican there at all in that way? Art treasures? Artefacts?

the 1929 Latern treaty. The state is the Holy See. Vatican city is only part of it and administered by the See.

And this is not a thing from the past; still here in ireland new churches are going up; millions beng spent on elaborate refurbishments that are cosmetic.. all paid for by the people.

Yes indeed and owned by the people who have equitable interest in the property.

New 'art treasures" being stored.

So churches should be austere and not have art works? Try the Protestants for that not the Catholics.

ISAW

Graces7 wrote: »

"Let not your right hand know what your left is doing"

And of course you are misinterpreting what I am saying. And not basing your ideas on the teachings of Jesus.

How so?

Graces7

Zaccheaus was a cheating tax collector as Jesus knew, so ineffect what he was promising was far, far more than half his possessions



Jesus knows us and our wee foibles.

Read His words. His teachings.

I have sidestepped nothing; aways referred to Jesus and to the fact that the other organisations etc are not professing to be the leaders of a Church Jesus founded to bring His Good News to a needy world..

Always referring and deferring to Jesus.

"On trust for future generations"? As followers of Jesus?

QUOTE=prinz;65632296] The young man was obviously overly dependant on his wealth.

Compare this...



With this..



Now Zacchaeus only gave half away and was saved? Does Zacchaeus not 'seek perfection'? Why is it ok for him to give half away, when the next young man must give everything away? Surely the reactions of both involved show us why Jesus said what he said. Zacchaeus was pleased to give away, eager and volunteering to do it. The next young man's reaction shows us that he was overly attached to his wealth, unlike Zacchaeus.



Oh really and why not? There are many instances of wealthy people not requiring to give away all in order to be blessed. See the centurion who owned slaves and was wealthy enough to build a synagogue... did Jesus refuse to heal his ill slave until he heard that the centurion had given everything away - or did he heal the man's slave because of his faith?



But they didn't give all they owned. Jesus didn't instruct everyone to give everything away. The disciples had purses, cloaks, swords etc.



The 'wealth' is relative. You are talking about priceless art work and buildings of untold historical value. It is held on trust for the people of the world. You have consistently side stepped many questions put to you, about other galleries and national treasures being sold etc.

Yes it is extravagant and the church was corrupted and needs to change IMO titles like excellency, bishop's palace etc should be made redudant, but as for selling priceless structures artefacts etc to the highest bidder..nope. I would much rather it remain on trust for future generations.[/QUOTE]

ISAW

Graces7 wrote: »

Exactly so; when you are starving, you need food. period.. and it is only the next meal that matters.

and what an inspiration the leaving of worldly values and riches would be to others.

Indeed which is why most clergy don't have any. Why is making everyone poor such an obsession for you ? Or do you think only clergy and Catholics should be poor? I must admit some Catholics or christians do see this as central to their expression of christianity but it isnt the only thing. Mind you it probably is the most important thing for most christians for the 21st century. Worship of the material caused a lot of problems.

Graces7

ISAW wrote: »

Which banks? Im not aware clergy have secret accounts with personal monies stashed away. are you?

That is not what I was saying; the vatican has bank accounts that are closed. The international banking community has so far been unable to enter them

Immunity stuff.

Some clergy are rich through legacies etc; they do not take a vow of poverty by the way.

That is not the point here but a side issue.

ISAW

Graces7 wrote: »

I have sidestepped nothing; aways referred to Jesus and to the fact that the other organisations etc are not professing to be the leaders of a Church Jesus founded to bring His Good News to a needy world..

The British Monarch professes to be head of the Anglican church and appointed by God. and unlike the Pope she DOES have vast personal wealth. If they abolished the Monarchy tomorrow and decoupled the Royal family from the State the Queen would still be one of the 20 richest people in the world!

on the other points I fairly much agree.

ISAW

Graces7 wrote: »

ISAW wrote: »

Which banks? Im not aware clergy have secret accounts with personal monies stashed away. are you?

That is not what I was saying; the vatican has bank accounts that are closed. The international banking community has so far been unable to enter them

so these accounts are administered by the giant Spaghetti Monster and Invisible unicorns are they? How can you cmake claims about what is in accounts about which you claim you have no knowledge?

Some clergy are rich through legacies etc;

Legacies given to them personally not to the Church! So now you want a law to ban any clergy inheriting anything?

they do not take a vow of poverty by the way.

some clergy don't. The proper laws governing religious institutes can vary dramatically.
http://catholicexchange.com/2008/11/20/114501/

StealthRolex

Graces7 wrote: »

These figures are wildy inaccurate and take no account of the millions stashed away in the banks.

Also the life style is rich; all those ornate robes alone cost a small fortune.

And you are missing the point ; is this consonant with the spiritual leader of a Church founded by Jesus?

Why is the Vatican there at all in that way? Art treasures? Artefacts?

And this is not a thing from the past; still here in ireland new churches are going up; millions beng spent on elaborate refurbishments that are cosmetic.. all paid for by the people.

New 'art treasures" being stored.

I never claimed them to be accurate, they're the best I can find at the moment. if you know better then please post them and I'll rework my figures.

As for the rich lifestyle - yes their garments are made for them but not by Gucci or Armani. What you do not see are cardinals splashing the cash, driving Bentleys and Astons, acquiring personal wealth and engaging in drink, drug, sex and food orgies. It is not ancient Rome.

The reason Irish churches spend our money is because they don't have the money to spend. As it is our money if we don't like it being ornate we can complain.

I don't know about "new art treasures" being stored. As I said in a previous post these are most likely gifts as you do not see Vatican representatives in the auction houses or trawling the sales exhibitions.
If they are gifts then selling them would seriously disrespect those who are giving them.

This was posted on another Catholic forum - enjoy

- The myth of Vatican wealth. "At the Vatican, everything is for sale, in the popular mind," Allen said. In reality, the Vatican's annual operating budget is about $260 million. Allen contrasted that to Harvard University, which has an annual operating budget of $1.3 billion.

" (Harvard) could run five Vaticans every year and still have pocket change left over for an endowed chair," Allen said, equating the Vatican's patrimony - all the assets it could sell - to that of a medium-sized Catholic university. Its total patrimony is $770 million. The University of Notre Dame's endowment is four and a half times greater, he said.

Allen noted that while people often assume a significant monetary value attached to the artwork the Vatican holds, it is not for sale.

" The Holy See's point of view is that the artwork is part of the patrimony of humanity," Allen said. It is listed as having a cash value of one euro.

Source: http://www.catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=14358

On a final note - the Roman Catholic Church does not run on sola scriptura as many Protestant churches do so there is not always a justification in the Bible. The Bible supports our beliefs but we are a living church, guided by the Holy Spirit. If the Vatican is "wealthy" , and I would disagree, I cannot see how it is in contradiction with the Bible.

That said as soon as I get a smell of call girs and escorts in the Vatican I'm off to be a career priest

The record in John regard the expensive oil as a gift, the selling of treasures, collection of money, the perpetual nature of the poor and Judas are all explained and support the Vatican by the way.

Graces7

ISAW wrote: »

Indeed which is why most clergy don't have any. Why is making everyone poor such an obsession for you ? Or do you think only clergy and Catholics should be poor? I must admit some Catholics or christians do see this as central to their expression of christianity but it isnt the only thing. Mind you it probably is the most important thing for most christians for the 21st century. Worship of the material caused a lot of problems.

It isn't an obession etc.

Many Catholics are facing now a deep crisis of faith.

And the overt riches and display of the Vatican is causing many to abandon their faith in the Church, and often their faith in Jesus because to them He is in the Church.

Of all we hear, the material aspects concern more than any other now.

So we are striving to return to true gospel values now in many cases, still within the faith.

Questioning always; seeking to live the teachings of Jesus when so few do.

And not sadly persuaded by other traditions either.

This thread has been so revealing!!

Seeing how worldly values are deeply entrenched . How little reliance on Jesus.

In its beginnings, the church was apart from society; on the fringes, rejected and endangered.

Existing to bring souls to God.

And many times what are called "intentional commuities" have realised that truly the teachings of Jesus cannot be lived in the world. Serving God AND Mammon does not work.

And this is true across all traditions. Not just Catholic.

Benedict the father of monasticism was one such; the world around him simply became too evil for a Christian to survive in. So he withdrew to found a community where Jesus was central and from which he would reach out. Quietly, without fanfare.

More recently, Bruderhof. Who after decades became too involved with the outside world eg a huge internet presence, then realised that they were losing their identity and one night vanished from the internet.

The Jesus Army in the UK.

And always when any community or religious order became too rich, too involved with the world and the values of the world?

Down it goes. That is the consistent pattern. God stops renewing them.

Happening now with RC.

And with the Orders here also.

Many of us are looking long and hard now at all of this, with prophetic intensity and seeking inspiration.

It is always the spiritual life that needs to inspire; not the doing of good works per se.

Many secular organisations do far more and far better than any church; and very quietly also.

The issue remains; shoudl the church Jesus founded own and cling to material possessions eg the Vatican and works of art?

Many of us say no. Bad example; and that is seen here so well.

prinz

Graces7 wrote: »

Jesus knows us and our wee foibles.

When I said that identical thing earlier you accused me of reinterpreting the Bible to suit my own ends.. .. It seems to me if Jesus knew someone's foible was their love of wealth and money He would be likely to ask them to give away all their wealth... yet to others who aren't as selfish with their wealth Jesus doesn't instruct them to give all their wealth away. See the difference?

Graces7 wrote: »

"On trust for future generations"? As followers of Jesus?

As members of humanity. One doesn't need to be a Christian to appreciate art, architecture, music etc.

Everything you have said smacks of simple iconoclasm to me.

Graces7

StealthRolex wrote: »

I never claimed them to be accurate, they're the best I can find at the moment. if you know better then please post them and I'll rework my figures.

As for the rich lifestyle - yes their garments are made for them but not by Gucci or Armani. What you do not see are cardinals splashing the cash, driving Bentleys and Astons, acquiring personal wealth and engaging in drink, drug, sex and food orgies. It is not ancient Rome.

The reason Irish churches spend our money is because they don't have the money to spend. As it is our money if we don't like it being ornate we can complain.

I don't know about "new art treasures" being stored. As I said in a previous post these are most likely gifts as you do not see Vatican representatives in the auction houses or trawling the sales exhibitions.
If they are gifts then selling them would seriously disrespect those who are giving them.

This was posted on another Catholic forum - enjoy

- The myth of Vatican wealth. "At the Vatican, everything is for sale, in the popular mind," Allen said. In reality, the Vatican's annual operating budget is about $260 million. Allen contrasted that to Harvard University, which has an annual operating budget of $1.3 billion.

" (Harvard) could run five Vaticans every year and still have pocket change left over for an endowed chair," Allen said, equating the Vatican's patrimony - all the assets it could sell - to that of a medium-sized Catholic university. Its total patrimony is $770 million. The University of Notre Dame's endowment is four and a half times greater, he said.

Allen noted that while people often assume a significant monetary value attached to the artwork the Vatican holds, it is not for sale.

" The Holy See's point of view is that the artwork is part of the patrimony of humanity," Allen said. It is listed as having a cash value of one euro.

Source: http://www.catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=14358

On a final note - the Roman Catholic Church does not run on sola scriptura as many Protestant churches do so there is not always a justification in the Bible. The Bible supports our beliefs but we are a living church, guided by the Holy Spirit. If the Vatican is "wealthy" , and I would disagree, I cannot see how it is in contradiction with the Bible.

That said as soon as I get a smell of call girs and escorts in the Vatican I'm off to be a career priest

The record in John regard the expensive oil as a gift, the selling of treasures, collection of money, the perpetual nature of the poor and Judas are all explained and support the Vatican by the way.

Sadly the lifestyle of many priests is indeed impure. Eg a club in Rome for gay priests with all kind of... activities. Not unique by any means.

We all need to take off our rose-coloured glasses.

And shed the ... brainwashing....we have been subjected to

Look at the reality.

The best source for much of this is the search function of the clerical whispers weblog

Of course not sola scriptura; but please read the catechism also.

Graces7

prinz wrote: »

When I said that identical thing earlier you accused me of reinterpreting the Bible to suit my own ends.. .. It seems to me if Jesus knew someone's foible was their love of wealth and money He would be likely to ask them to give away all their wealth... yet to others who aren't as selfish with their wealth Jesus doesn't instruct them to give all their wealth away. See the difference?



As members of humanity. One doesn't need to be a Christian to appreciate art, architecture, music etc.

Everything you have said smacks of simple iconoclasm to me.

Not at all; but if the icon comes between Jesus and us? And becomes more important than Him?

Then it becomes idolatry.

prinz

Graces7 wrote: »

Not at all; but if the icon comes between Jesus and us? And becomes more important than Him?
Then it becomes idolatry.

So my spending say €40 on a nicely bound, good quality Bible when I could buy a cheap one for €20 and donate the other €20 is idolatry?

StealthRolex

Graces7 wrote: »

Sadly the lifestyle of many priests is indeed impure. Eg a club in Rome for gay priests with all kind of... activities. Not unique by any means.

We all need to take off our rose-coloured glasses.

And shed the ... brainwashing....we have been subjected to

Look at the reality.

The best source for much of this is the search function of the clerical whispers weblog

Of course not sola scriptura; but please read the catechism also.

Graces7, If I didn't know better and all I had were the bodies of your posts I would suspect the poster of representing possibly a Protestant and a worst a fundamentalist point of view.

I'm glad you mentioned reality as that is something we should do and in this exercise look at the reality of Christs life.

Do you think Jesus spent all is time splitting loaves and fishes? No his first miracle was at Canaan. Before that he went out and bought food with His earnings from His business as a carpenter. In that respect we can assume he had no issues with honest economics, or honest trade and earned enough money as a carpenter and teacher to stay alive, maintain His home, feed and cloth Himself and His family, pay doctors bills and do all the basic things we have to do every day.
Look at the soldiers splitting His garments at the foot of the Cross. Where did the seamless robe come from? A gift or bought from an exclusive tailor? We don't know because His life before He was thirty is unknown to us.
Why did He say "you won't have me with you but you will always have the poor"?. Without Him food and clothes cannot be materialized out of thin air expanded from loaves and fishes. He also talks about good stewardship.

If the Church were do to as you suggest we would have no Church other than a few wandering evangelicals and the Vatican would cease to be a place of pilgrimage. No more Pontifical Scientific University either btw.

The Church is part of the Temporal world and as such needs to survive by the best means available. It is also a protector of mans ingenuity, mans artistic soul and mans history as well as being an educator in more than just theology.

I agree there are things that people see as wrong with the Church and this is because it is run by humans with human weaknesses. Selling off the Vatican will not help anyone. If may feed the poor for a while but what do you do when it's gone?

But I also urge you to find out how much the Vatican and the Church is really worth. Millions in bank accounts? Fine, but that's still guessing and we need trillions and more to solve proverty problems. There are 3,000,000,000 poor in the world.

Anglo Irish could probably swallow hundreds of Vaticans and still not survive and Anglo Irish has made a pauper out of this country.

PDN

philiporeilly wrote: »

Not to be smart but the GAA had to take out a massive loan and seek corporate sponsorship to build Croke Park. They didn't have 500 million sitting in the Credit Union and decided to splash out. The sale of tickets / memorabilia offsets the costs of paying for the stadium.

If they could find a buyer for the stadium, they would probably still owe money given that the property market has crashed.

And, if you know your history, the Church had to do similar fundraising to build St Peters. By order of Pope Leo X, they were selling indulgences (basically 'get out of jail free' cards to cut short purgatory) as far away as Germany. The over-exhuberant sales pitch of a Dominican named Johann Tetzel (his advertising jingle was "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs") was one of the sparks that provoked Martin Luther to launch the Protestant Reformation.

philiporeilly

PDN wrote: »

And, if you know your history, the Church had to do similar fundraising to build St Peters. By order of Pope Leo X, they were selling indulgences (basically 'get out of jail free' cards to cut short purgatory) as far away as Germany. The over-exhuberant sales pitch of a Dominican named Johann Tetzel (his advertising jingle was "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs") was one of the sparks that provoked Martin Luther to launch the Protestant Reformation.

Sorry didn't know the church were still paying off those loans!

Maybe explains why the top hierarchy had to re-mortgague their morals by facilitating and covering up abuse scandals?

lmaopml

Sometimes the Christianity forum breaks my heart even more than the Atheist one at times.....

I think Luther was quite right in criticising Johann, and others....as I said, there were some fairly dodgy people over the last 2000 years...There's always dodgy people everywhere, who may have a good reason for something, but a bad way of doing it....

I'm not going to get into Luther, as not only is it over 400 years ago, but I guess it's an undercurrent on the board that's barely concealed sometime -suffice to say, imo changing the faith to something almost unrecogniseable was an over reaction, and it saddens me that alot of people generally tend not to like RCC for what we are, and what the faith is, but what they 'think' we are.

StealthRolex

lmaopml

This is an issue we all have to deal with.

Atheists are one problem because the god they choose not to believe in is nothing like the God we believe in, and no two atheists don't (not) believe in the same thing. They make up a god and then choose not to believe.

When it comes to RCC, you have to be one and live the life to understand. Anyone who is not RCC is generally working on hearsay, or "their" understanding of what it is to be RCC. It's all part of life which is why the best move is to go with "love God and love your neighbour as yourself" - oh, and love your enemies too, as they're your neighbours.

It probably comes from the concept of a personal God.

lmaopml

Thanks StealthRolex. I get the thrust and flow of the forum, and for the most part I think people are really fair, in particular the mods....I quite admire some of my protestant brothers and sisters...Perhaps it's just because there are very few Catholics really who post on here....

I have to admit, I am appalled sometimes at how little some Catholics actually know about 'why' we do certain things, and believe certain things..

Anyways, your right...:o

I need to re-charge, and sorry if I interrupted the flow of this debate...

StealthRolex

Hey, it works in reverse too. I'm sure there are plenty of Catholics who think it must be great to be a Protestant because you can get divorced and remarry, use contraceptives, be a married priest even if you're a woman and join the Free Masons without fear of excommunication

But that's just my understanding - I could be wrong!

lmaopml

lol, Yes, I'm sure that is the other side of the coin, and most definitely isn't the case, I take people as I find em...or I like to think so..and imo we all look the same to God above, he knows us best, and never loses us, ever!

I often think of the Lords prayer...and really try to meditate on it ye know, cause I'm new(ish) to this...


I've seen in the last few months, to my surprise a jump in the numbers attending, and they're all smiling awkwardly..lol....

...the sign of peace etc....

Hmmm...I dunno, I think it would be great if there was that sense of community that my Gran spoke of..but it's kinda awkward..but nonetheless it's lovely to praise God amongst others...There are so many lines drawn in life with what we 'do' or 'don't do', 'believe' or 'don't believe'...whether it's religion, politics, media, etc. etc. etc. and so on...

It's 'refreshing'......


...so far!

ISAW

PDN wrote: »

And, if you know your history, the Church had to do similar fundraising to build St Peters. By order of Pope Leo X, they were selling indulgences (basically 'get out of jail free' cards to cut short purgatory) as far away as Germany. The over-exhuberant sales pitch of a Dominican named Johann Tetzel (his advertising jingle was "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs") was one of the sparks that provoked Martin Luther to launch the Protestant Reformation.

Indeed. the Roman Catholic church should probably put Luther forward for canonisation as a saint.

Splendour

StealthRolex wrote: »

If the Church were do to as you suggest we would have no Church other than a few wandering evangelicals...

Seems to me this is exactly what the disciples did and they didn't need a HQ to report back to; they knew The Boss was always with them...

ISAW

Splendour wrote: »

Seems to me this is exactly what the disciples did and they didn't need a HQ to report back to; they knew The Boss was always with them...

While they may argue the necessity of a Pope ther is no necessity for the Vatican. The Church could and has existed without it. It is temporal. that isn't to say it isn't convenient. I think I already pointed to the efficiency of administration. In fact it saves expense of anything.