All Ireland MSc in Biomedical Engineering

solymar

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has done or is going to apply for this Masters? I have an Bachelors in Electronic & Computer Engineering and really want to move into the biomedical field, so I'm seriously considering applying for this Masters. Would anyone have any advice, having done this MSc?

Thanks!

Dilbert75

Currently doing it p/t - what do you want to know?

solymar

Hi Dilbert75,

How are you finding the PT course? Is it proceeding quiet slowly? I'm thinking of doing the FT one, but trying to do it while working. I just thought the PT one might be too slow moving. Do you find you're very busy all the time with it?

Which college did you apply to out of the 5? Did you have to interview to get in? Was your undergrad in Biomedical Engineering also?

Thanks in advance!

Dilbert75

Solymar,
I don't think slow moving would be a good description!

OK from the start. I applied to UL - my undergrad was Mech Eng from UL, so I know the system there and the environment. I didn't have to do an interview and got accepted despite not having the required honours grade in my degree (though I have relatively substantial industrial experience, work in the medical device industry and am a Chartered Engineer).

More importantly, there were only two options for p/t (UL & TCD) and UL do their Medical Sciences module over 2 solid weeks in RCSI, whereas TCD do theirs over 8 Friday afternoons. Being based outside Dublin, travelling up every Friday for 8 weeks was not attractive.

And I'm glad I did it - the RCSI was, by a long, long way, the best example of teaching I've ever experienced. Experienced, expert lecturers, interested in teaching, and in ensuring students are learning, rather than standing at the top of a room talking to their feet. The lectures are backed up by practical sessions in the Anatomy room which, though intimidating to some at first, is spectacularly helpful in reinforcing what's described in the lectures. People from industry apparently do this two week course on its own without the MSc and it is run in a professional student-centric manner that I've never seen matched anywhere else before or since.

Following those 2 weeks, the FT & 2nd year PT students do Biomechanics in TCD. This is a very intensive week, followed by 3 very intensive weeks of projects / assignments and an exam in December. I'm scheduled to do this next September and, from what I've heard, its savage difficult and demanding. But really interesting.

In November, there's a week of Bioinstrumentation in UL for FT & 1st year PT students. This consists of lectures and labs (Matlab, Labview). There was a huge class this year, so the lab sessions were no fun at all (too many people, too few workstations, too few tutors). There was an exam in December and 4 written assignments and 1 Labview project to submit by the start of March. If you're electrically / electronically savvy, you'll be fine. I'm not so I struggled a bit but was happy with my exam result (haven't got the continuous assessment results yet).

In January, there's 3 days of Biomaterials in UCD & 3 days in UL for FT & 1st year PT students. These were mostly lectures in both locations, with a half day of labs on the Wed pm in UL. The lab reports had to be submitted online. There's a staggering amount of stuff covered in the 6 days - just about 1200 powerpoint slides, already quite heavily condensed.

FT & 2nd year UL students then do a half week each of Rehab Eng and a half week of Cell & Tissue Eng (in Feb & Apr this year), with, I believe, reports / projects to do for each (due last week and before end of May). The exam for Biomaterials this year was on Monday last and the other 2 modules were on today and on Friday coming. TCD students have an alternative Neural Engineering module to choose from too - pick 2 from 3 modules.

FT / 2nd year PT students also undertake a significant project from November to September - this is worth something like nearly half the final mark. And UL grade their awards, whereas I think TCD award pass/fail.

I know one student (also electronically qualified) who's working ft and taking on this course ft as well. To me it seems like a staggering amount of work to undertake and I don't believe I could manage it - though I'm a bit of a perfectionist so just passing is not my aim.

Hope that helps!

00lk

Hi Solymar/ Dilbert75

Dilbert where are you hoping to go with this qualification, R&D? Just wondering do you see a big potential job market for this in future in Ireland. Do you know how previous graduates are getting on. There seems to be a lot of peole heading for Biomedical Engineering at the moment (that or sustainable energy)

thanks

Dilbert75

00lk, I believe the Irish Med Device sector is growing at 5% per annum at the moment. There are certainly lots of people moving towards it at the moment because its seen as more predictable and less movable & subject to fluctuation than other industries. This means that competition for jobs is high and in my experience it remains difficult to get Engineers who have the right match of skills and experience.

As I mentioned above, I'm already working in the sector, though in a manufacturing engineering role. I guess that if I stay on my current career track, my next step up would be Eng Manager but I do find the design process very interesting - it was actually a meeting with one of my employer's design engineers that prompted me to undertake the course.

I guess, if nothing else, I look on the course as a positive differentiator between myself and other people when opportunities come up (remember in a couple of years the basic qualification required for Chartered Engineer status rises from Bachelors to Masters degree - so competing for jobs against more recent graduates a Masters will give you an equal educational background).

More importantly it gives you some insight into the factors which need to be considered in designing devices and also gives you some of the lingo to speak to medical professionals when discussing them.

I guess there are maybe 50 graduates from this course every year (based on this year's class size anyway) - I'm not sure how many R&D positions come available in Med Devices every year, but I'm not sure all graduates would move into such jobs. I've only spoken to a few of graduates (interviewed one or two also). One of my colleagues, also in a manufacturing role, is a graduate and I know of some others who completed the course while working in fairly senior medical device engineering roles, with some others who've gone on to complete PhD's afterwards. I suppose it comes down to what you gain out of it, what you do with it and what opportunities come your way.

Does that answer your questions?

00lk

Thanks for the helpful reply Dilbert.
I have read a useful report on the medical devices sector from the nationalskills website. They went into detail on what skills are in demand from Medical Device companies in Ireland. From an engineering point of view in particular there was a requirement for engineers with Practical Engineering design experience/skills as well as those that can design end to end processes.

So following on from that, In your experience, does the Msc Biomedical Engineering contain practical (med device) design elements or is it very theoretical in its delivery?

Dilbert75

Like any University course, and particularly any Engineering course, it consists largely of delivery of the theory underlying the practise. There may be included in there information about specific applications of interest to the individual lecturer but, to be fair, the range of medical device applications is so vast that it could never be possible to teach students how to design for every single application with various materials. What it can teach you is the advantages and disadvantages of the device control options, the limitations of materials, the interactions between devices and the human body, etc. After that, the implementation of the knowledge and principles is what comes with experience.

thewools

Hi Dilbert75m your info is great - I too have been looking at doing this course.

I would prob do this course via TCD - and from my initial reading the part time hours are confusing. Are the various course modules taught over a few weeks (during working hours)

Im currently working full time and getting time off would be an issue...

muboop1

What type of jobs are people getting out of this masters?

Dilbert75

Thewools: the course is by midweek block release - medical sciences is 2 weeks full time (except TCD - 8 weeks on Friday afternoons). Biomechanics is 1 week full time, bioinstrumentation is 1 week full time, biomaterials is 6 days full time, cell & tissue engineering is 3 full days, rehab engineering is 3 full days and as far as I know (UL don't have this option) neural engineering is 3 full days. If you're doing it part-time through UL, without your employer's support, you will require (including exams) 23 days in year 1 and 13 days in year 2, excluding project days. I know one person doing it full time and working at the same time without employer support but I don't know how he's managing it.

Note also that medical sciences is based in Dublin (RCSI / TCD as applicable), Biomechanics is in TCD, Bioinstrumentation is in UL, Biomaterials is half in UCD and half in UL, Cell & Tissue is in UCD, Rehab Eng is in UCD / Rehab Hospital and exams are held in the college through which you apply. A lot of my classmates didn't realise this and therefore were not ready for the accomodation expenses which they were required to fund (naturally they're not included in course fees).

muboop1: I'm not sure to be honest - some will get R&D jobs, some might get manufacturing jobs, some will go on to PhD study. Might be worth talking to the course leaders directly? Details are on UL or TCD

solymar

Thanks so much Dilbert for your detailed answer!! I'm based in Dublin so would probably apply to TCD. The thing is though, like you said, the 2 week course in RCSI seems like a great opportunity and would be a shame to miss it. I would probably have serious trouble getting the time off work, but would love to do that course. Would you say there's anyway TCD students can sit it on it?

RE the area I want to go into, I really don't know yet!! I think I probably have to be exposed alot more to biomed and it's applications before I know. However the whole area of tissue engineering seems very interesting. Do you know anyone working in that field?

Do you know if the course is full, and if there was much competition for places? I've kind of set my heart on doing it now!

Dilbert75

Solymar you'd have to talk to the college you apply to about changing module. Just don't forget that irrespective of which college you apply through, you still travel between three colleges to share the same lectures. And you can get reading access to TCD library as a student of the other colleges (though not borrowing facilities and exams are in your "home" college).

You can do the RCSI course separately but I understand it costs about €2k on its own - the same as the subsidised annual cost of the MSc!

The course this year was very heavily subscribed - in UL there were 23 enrolled in 2009 and 20 of them were full-time. UCD started it this year (c.10 students) and TCD had probably 20-something students also. Then NCAD joined in - don't know how many they added.

Don't know anyone working in tissue engineering but again the colleges might be able to refer you to someone if you want to have a chat.

Dilbert75

Dilbert75 wrote: »

00lk, I believe the Irish Med Device sector is growing at 5% per annum at the moment. There are certainly lots of people moving towards it at the moment because its seen as more predictable and less movable & subject to fluctuation than other industries. This means that competition for jobs is high and in my experience it remains difficult to get Engineers who have the right match of skills and experience.

Competition is unreal at the moment, the Masters won't get you in the door over someone with a years experience and there are loads of experienced folks out there. The companies are very very selective too and often claim that the right candidates are not out there. Payfreezes are common is the med device industry at the mo, along with redundancies and budgets for projects being cut. I know quite a few people with a few years experience in between jobs / contracts at the mo, they claim it is unbelievably quiet.

Dilbert75

RoverJames wrote: »

Competition is unreal at the moment, the Masters won't get you in the door over someone with a years experience and there are loads of experienced folks out there.

Very true

The companies are very very selective too and often claim that the right candidates are not out there

It does seem to be a point though - it seems anyone who's in a "secure job" is staying there. Many job applicants seem to have little experience or at least little relevant experience. You'd think that it'd be easy to fill jobs but the "right" candidates are not that easy to find.

Payfreezes are common is the med device industry at the mo, along with redundancies and budgets for projects being cut. I know quite a few people with a few years experience in between jobs / contracts at the mo, they claim it is unbelievably quiet.

More bad news for Covidien employees today alright.

solymar

Hi again Dilbert!!

I'm sure it varies depending on which college you apply to, but do UL offer any work placement/coop programmes? I know you are currently working, but do you know if they do any grad-company matchings after the masters is finished?

I've put in my application for TCD as I'm based in Dublin and am hoping to do it fulltime.

Thanks for all your previous answers everyone

Dilbert75

Solymar, not to my knowledge - but I wouldn't be likely to get offered for obvious reasons.

If you're doing it F/T in Dublin, don't ignore the fact that UCD now offer that option - and you get the RCSI Medical Sciences option. Just be prepared for some (alleged) disorganisation

And - good luck!

Nikelle

Thanks for all the usefull information re the MSc Biomedical Engineering Course. I am interested in finding out more info regarding the Projects. Is the final project applied or literary research? Are they company based or college based? Is there a list of projects to choose from or can you choose your own. I am hoping to do the UL based course in September. Any info re projects would be gratefully received.

Dilbert75

Nikelle,
I'm not sure but as far as I know the projects are more desk studies than practical, though they may have some lab-scale elements. I understand that the projects are generally assigned by faculty from the different departments and that they often complement the research interests of the faculty members. If you're interested I can pm you the 2009 list.

That said, already being in the industry, I'm hoping to make a proposal to work on an industry-based project that will bring some benefit to my professional life. At this point, though, I don't know whether any proposal will be accepted by the college.

Good luck with the course.

mar-z

Dilbert is correct that the projects (for those based in Trinity anyway, I assume it's the same for those based elsewhere) are proposes by the staff and represent their research interests. In Trinity anyway this generally leads to more desk based projects due to the high interest in computational work in the centre for bioengineering. I know there were at least a few projects this year that were based (or partly based) in different labs.

Dilbert, you can propose your own project if you have an idea that interests you. If you go down that road though I would suggest you try to find a supervisor who has some interest in the area as their advise will be better while it is in progress. Assuming the details can be worked out, if you are proposing a project an industry-based one is particularly encouraged. Unfortunately I can only speak to this being true in TCD.

Here's a link to the course handbook: http://www.tcd.ie/bioengineering/documents/MScinBioengineering_001.pdf, which around page 19 gives more of these details.

Edit: Sorry I just reread Nikelle's question which I only partly answered. All this info is relevant to TCD, I assume it will be similar in UL etc but no guarantee Whether your project is lab based or desk/computer based, your project will still be applied rather than literary research (although when writing a thesis on the project a lit. review is usually done). The vast majority (I would say all but would need to check) are college based. If you have ties to industry or a particular lecturer does there may be a chance of a company based one, but the chances are small that there will be one on the staff proposed list.

Nikelle

Mar-z, thank you for your very helpful response. This link seems to have everything! nikelle

Dilbert75

Just reviewed page 20 of that attachment - it states "Members of staff within the Departments of Mechanical and Aeronautical Engineering (MAE), Materials Science and Technology (MST) and Electronic and Computer Engineering (ECE) propose projects pertinent to their own research interests. Candidates are also encouraged to propose their own projects, particularly in cases where the candidate has an industrial link.".

solymar

Thanks to all who replied, there is loads of really helpful info in this thread

I've been called for an interview for the masters in TCD. Just wondering if anyone else had to go for an interview and if so, what type of questions they were asked ? They said it'll only be 10-15 mins long, so shouldn't be too nerve racking!

Dilbert75

Sorry I can't offer you any advice on that one - I didn't get called for interview in UL - but it does indicate that there is more demand than availability again this year. Best of luck to you and anyone else here going for it - its good to see you making the effort to find out about it before applying.

Dilbert75

Anyone who's doing this full-time in 2010 - see ya in TCD on 6th Sept for Biomechanics....let the fun begin!

mikhail

RoverJames wrote: »

Competition is unreal at the moment, the Masters won't get you in the door over someone with a years experience and there are loads of experienced folks out there.

Yeah, an EE PhD and no experience got me nowhere last year, even after a good interview. Tough area to get into right now.

trapper1

Thanks for all the great info, I applied earlier in the year for a F/T place in UL and have not received any correspondence from them apart from the receipt of application email. I am wondering if anyone has received an offer from them (UL)yet? The course director is out of office until the end of the month and the pstgrd office is none the wiser. I'm worried I may have missed the boat.

Dilbert75

Chillax for a while - it was 1st week in Sept before I got offered my place last year. It'll be August at the earliest before they get a move on though, as I said, it starts earlier this year (Sept 6th) so maybe they might be a bit more prompt this year.

mar-z

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Anyone who's doing this full-time in 2010 - see ya in TCD on 6th Sept for Biomechanics....let the fun begin!

Looks like I'll be demonstrating one of the labs in the biomechanics module, better be on your best behaviour Dilbert (I'm doing a phd in biomech in TCD)

Dilbert75

mar-z wrote: »

Looks like I'll be demonstrating one of the labs in the biomechanics module, better be on your best behaviour Dilbert (I'm doing a phd in biomech in TCD)

Well if you look out for the very conspicuous 2nd year part timers from UL - of the guys, I'll prob be the older, greyer slightly chubbier one (unless we get some additional old, grey, increasingly chubby classmates for the next academic year!). Do you get the pleasure of marking the exams too?

mar-z

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Well if you look out for the very conspicuous 2nd year part timers from UL - of the guys, I'll prob be the older, greyer slightly chubbier one (unless we get some additional old, grey, increasingly chubby classmates for the next academic year!). Do you get the pleasure of marking the exams too?

Thankfully no as marking exams can be a lot of work, I've nothing to do with the exam this year just the continuous assessment for the lab I'm giving.