People believe FG answer to all our problems????

average_runner

Its nearly for granted that FG will get into Goverment but also in my opinion its nearly granted they are going to be doomed from day 1 and their party will get ruined.


Reason I say this is because people have built FG up to be the answer to all our problems, expecially in this forum.

So a few questions I have:

- Do you really think FG are differ to FF in that they care about the average Joe Soap. If so why and what evidence to show it???

To me all the parties are the same, look after number 1 and then their rich buddies, joe soap never got anything off FG or off any of the other parties!


Will the same people that moan about FF be on here moaning about FG in two years???

My answer is yes, as people have build them up to be God in solving our problems!


In my opinion I believe we will have FG goverment, they be out in 5 years or less if they go with labour(as labour cant get along with no one) and FF will walk back in. FG could well do good work in those 5 years but will take 10 years for that to come through but the Irish people wont wait that long, FF will then get in and take the credit.

Head The Wall

I don't know who gave you the impression that FG will solve everything here. Couldn't be further from the truth, they may be an alternative to FF but they are not a credible alternative that will get much done or changed.

Most people here in my opinion think we are still fecked regardless of who gets in. Obviously Labour would be the worst

The_Honeybadger

IMO Fianna Gael are running with the hare and hunting with the hounds at the moment, they have not laid down a strong position on key issues such as public sector pay & reform, they are also against NAMA but have no credible alternative for fixing the banks. Also consider Labour will get in with them which will hamper them even further, I consider Labour to be full of hot air, great at shouting about what is wrong, but very little clue about what should be done to put it right. I think if anything they are a little scared of power, as they know what an impossible job it would be in Government now, there isn't a leader anywhere in the world that could get us out of this mess we have made and I think Enda knows this. FG's plan to create 100,000 jobs is pure pie in the sky as it would take an investment of billions that we don't have, and their plan for the health system makes some sense, but doesn't address the key issues in our hospitals. In summary i don't believe a change in Government will bring about any major change in our fortunes, I don't think anybody else does either. However they are not Fianna Fail, and this alone should see them get their chance IMO.

smellslikeshoes

When the current shower of FF are the cause of a lot of our problems it's hard to see why getting them out of government wouldn't solve a lot of things.

My personal opinion is that having one party in power for too long can cause things to become stagnant, corrupt, incompetent etc.
That is why we need change, not because the party policies are that different.

dlofnep

I don't believe FG is distinct enough for produce any real changes, in my opinion. They serve the same interests as Fianna Fáil.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't believe FG is distinct enough for produce any real changes, in my opinion. They serve the same interests as Fianna Fáil.

but Sinn Féin are, of course :rolleyes:

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

but Sinn Féin are, of course :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, am I entitled to my opinion without getting the obligatory rolling eyes?

I don't feel that Fine Gael would change the landscape, and that their interests are similar to that of Fianna Fáil. I'm not the only one who feels this way.

zootroid

average_runner wrote: »

Its nearly for granted that FG will get into Goverment but also in my opinion its nearly granted they are going to be doomed from day 1 and their party will get ruined.


Reason I say this is because people have built FG up to be the answer to all our problems, expecially in this forum.

So a few questions I have:

- Do you really think FG are differ to FF in that they care about the average Joe Soap. If so why and what evidence to show it???

To me all the parties are the same, look after number 1 and then their rich buddies, joe soap never got anything off FG or off any of the other parties!


Will the same people that moan about FF be on here moaning about FG in two years???

My answer is yes, as people have build them up to be God in solving our problems!


In my opinion I believe we will have FG goverment, they be out in 5 years or less if they go with labour(as labour cant get along with no one) and FF will walk back in. FG could well do good work in those 5 years but will take 10 years for that to come through but the Irish people wont wait that long, FF will then get in and take the credit.

If you believe that to be the case, why do you live in Ireland? Why not move to a country that has a healthier democracy?

I don't for one minute think FG will solve all our problems. I don't think any party can. But I do think it's unhealthy for any democracy for the same group of people to be left in charge for so long. Power corrupts. People in power either become solely interested in furthering their own agendas, or they become so removed from the everyday lives of the citizens that they make poor decisions.

I also think that the election should be a way of holding the government to account. Even if FF were to be seen in a light that they stand the best chance of getting the economy on track (and I don't think they are), the election gives the electorate a chance to punish those who made mistakes by removing them from power.

It's a shame that Ireland does have the political system it has, because despite all that, Cowen will still be returned come the next election. Parish pump politics at its worst.

Anyway, as you sound like someone willing to vote FF, what reason do you have for doing so other than the fact you believe FG will not be any good? Surely FF have demonstrated by now their sheer incompetence?

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sorry, am I entitled to my opinion without getting the obligatory rolling eyes?

I don't feel that Fine Gael would change the landscape, and that their interests are similar to that of Fianna Fáil. I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Its hard not to roll eyes when it comes to talking with Sinners Marxists Republicans sorry (dont shoot me!), Its like talking to Mormons when they come knocking on the door

anyways I actually agree with you about FG (and also Lab)

I dread voting in the next election, its going to be a real case of choosing the least worst option

astrofool

The least worst option is to get rid of FF. The only way to do that is ensure that FG get a majority.

problemchimp

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't believe FG is distinct enough for produce any real changes, in my opinion. They serve the same interests as Fianna Fáil.

so what do you suggest? leave it as it is?

Sleepy

Obviously, as far as I'm concerned, only dictatorship rule by myself would answer all our problems

I can imagine better politicians/parties to lead Ireland out of the recession. However, as an Irishman I've never had the opportunity to vote for someone I actually thought was competent, intelligent, honest and without associations to murderers. As such, my ballot has always been filled from lowest preference to highest in order of "hell no", "really don't want him/her/them", "they're slightly less unpalatable", "least worst option".

So, no, they aren't the answer to all our problems. They're the least worst option.

Liam Byrne

I don't for a second believe that FG will solve all our problems.

The scale of the mess that FF have left behind ensures that.

I do, however - for obvious reasons - reckon they will be a huge improvement.

I'd view it as being like the current Financial Regulator......he's a massive improvement but he can't solve everything either.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dlofnep

problemchimp wrote: »

so what do you suggest? leave it as it is?

No, I'd suggest a left-aligned government that serve the interests of the people first, and not populist politics.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I'd suggest a left-aligned government that serve the interests of the people first, and not populist politics.

quadrupling welfare, free 3rd level education, larger public service, numerous quanqos

is right wing? :eek:

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I'd suggest a left-aligned government that serve the interests of the people first, and not populist politics.

Which people, though ?

I mean, SF's view of law and order, acceptable behaviour and equality seems to differ from that of most people I know.

And they seem to do accountability for their actions and those of their members similarly to FF.

RichardAnd

I agree that, right now, FG are destined to be the next party in power. Of course, between now and the next election (unless FF fall) alot could happen so it's not set in stone.

The opposition in Ireland have never had it easier. People are angry because they have been hit where it hurts the most; in the pocket. All the opposition parties have to do is say that FF and the bankers are to blame and make the average Joe feel like a victim.

But of course, the reality is far, far different. The fact is that FF were voted into power by doing precisely what people wanted them to do. I heard on the radio last summer, a woman on Joe Duffy complaining that FF should have attempted to curb the boom and prevent a reliance on construction. Well she was correct, they should have but if Ahern had done that he would probably have been voted out of power. And FG would jump on the band wagon by probably doing precisely what FF did to keep the boom alive.

FG or FF, it doesn't really matter. The boom and bust weren't caused simply the the greed of a few high people but the collective 10 year binge on money by 90% of people in this nation. The "Blame FF and the Bankers" argument utterly fails to address the sickening level greed, selfishness and dishonesty that took hold here.

I don't like FF, I don't like FG, I dislike politicians in general simply because they are utterly untrustworthy and, right now, they are telling a nation of angry people what they want to hear. Ireland's problem is her own people, the drink, the immaturity and the general ignorance are things that have to go. But of course they won't so people can go and blame FF all the like but they would do well to ponder one simple fact; the people at the top of are simply the tip of the ice berg.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

P. Breathnach

RichardAnd wrote: »

I agree that, right now, FG are destined to be the next party in power. Of course, between now and the next election (unless FF fall) alot could happen so it's not set in stone.

The opposition in Ireland have never had it easier. People are angry because they have been hit where it hurts the most; in the pocket. All the opposition parties have to do is say that FF and the bankers are to blame and make the average Joe feel like a victim.

But of course, the reality is far, far different. The fact is that FF were voted into power by doing precisely what people wanted them to do. I heard on the radio last summer, a woman on Joe Duffy complaining that FF should have attempted to curb the boom and prevent a reliance on construction. Well she was correct, they should have but if Ahern had done that he would probably have been voted out of power. And FG would jump on the band wagon by probably doing precisely what FF did to keep the boom alive.

FG or FF, it doesn't really matter. The boom and bust weren't caused simply the the greed of a few high people but the collective 10 year binge on money by 90% of people in this nation. The "Blame FF and the Bankers" argument utterly fails to address the sickening level greed, selfishness and dishonesty that took hold here...

I agree with the broad thrust of this, including the bit I have boldfaced. It is an interesting phenomenon that nearly everybody who posts here is one of the other 10%.

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

quadrupling welfare, free 3rd level education, larger public service, numerous quanqos

is right wing? :eek:

Free 3rd level education was brought in by Labour. The other 3 are the legacy of FF. Just so your not confused.

RichardAnd

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I agree with the broad thrust of this, including the bit I have boldfaced. It is an interesting phenomenon that nearly everybody who posts here is one of the other 10%.

Agreed, but bare in mind that this is a political forum. The fact that we're here at all means we have an interest in politics. The other 90% only have an interest, I would imagine, at times like these.

Overature

yeah that fact of the matter is that even thougth FF suck, it does not mean any other party are going to be any better, FG will get in power, do such a bad job and people will be whining for FF to get back in power and then we'll end up back where we started. we need brand new partys

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Laminations

Overature wrote: »

yeah that fact of the matter is that even thougth FF suck, it does not mean any other party are going to be any better, FG will get in power, do such a bad job and people will be whining for FF to get back in power and then we'll end up back where we started. we need brand new partys

So all parties suck. When FF **** up we are all reminded of this. No other party will do better. But you predict after FG inevitably mess up badly that we'll want FF back? So when FG hypothetically mess up we can magically think FF could do better (you said we'd want them back) but when FF have actually messed up, all parties are the same.

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Free 3rd level education was brought in by Labour. The other 3 are the legacy of FF. Just so your not confused.

You are correct, thanks

Labour are certainly not right wing

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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There are a number of interests which I do not believe that FF is looking out for, nor would FG look out for.

First is fair access to education - the current grant system is not fair, as it does not give a fair assessment of financial circumstances. Students are often left out, or forced to work long hours which impacts their education drastically - purely based on their parents income. This needs to change. I don't believe that FG is willing to change it.

Fair access to healthcare - Fine Gael's current Faircare proposals have a few questions, which need to be answered. They have failed to provide a clear and concise paper on their proposals. Fianna Fáil have allowed Mary Harney to continue to run down our healthcare system, in cut-and-slash politics - removing important facilities across various regions.

The interests of the workers - FG will never vest an interest in those of the workers. Only a few months ago, a Fine Gael councillor was caught exploiting a migrant for cheap labour. This does not demonstrate a desire to protect the most vulnerable in society. And rarely have I seen a local FG representative here attend demonstrations for workers, in a city well known for standing up for workers.

Fine Gael are not a welcome change from Fianna Fáil. They will promise much, but deliver nothing. There is a reason they have never succeeded in winning two concurrent elections.

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

quadrupling welfare, free 3rd level education, larger public service, numerous quanqos

is right wing? :eek:

I never stated Fianna Fáil were right wing. I stated that they engage in populist politics, as do Fine Gael.

By the way, Fianna Fáil did not introduce "free" 3rd level education. Infact, they doubled the registration fees, which caused a few of my friends and classmates to quit college because they could not afford the higher fees. Increased access to 3rd level education was a Labour initiative.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

There are a number of interests which I do not believe that FF is looking out for, nor would FG look out for.

First is fair access to education - the current grant system is not fair, as it does not give a fair assessment of financial circumstances. Students are often left out, or forced to work long hours which impacts their education drastically - purely based on their parents income. This needs to change. I don't believe that FG is willing to change it.

god forbid our students have to work for a while flipping burgers

ive done it in my day, if anything it made me appreciate and concentrate on education more since i didnt want to be a burger boy for life

dlofnep wrote: »

Fair access to healthcare - Fine Gael's current Faircare proposals have a few questions, which need to be answered. They have failed to provide a clear and concise paper on their proposals. Fianna Fáil have allowed Mary Harney to continue to run down our healthcare system, in cut-and-slash politics - removing important facilities across various regions.

The interests of the workers - FG will never vest an interest in those of the workers. Only a few months ago, a Fine Gael councillor was caught exploiting a migrant for cheap labour. This does not demonstrate a desire to protect the most vulnerable in society. And rarely have I seen a local FG representative here attend demonstrations for workers, in a city well known for standing up for workers.

Fine Gael are not a welcome change from Fianna Fáil. They will promise much, but deliver nothing. There is a reason they have never succeeded in winning two concurrent elections.

Once again how does your SF crowd propose to address the above?

im very interested

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

god forbid our students have to work for a while flipping burgers

It's not an issue of "working" flipping burgers. Please don't be obtuse. It's about forcing students to work long hours, on account of having no government support - which directly affects their education. I've worked all through college - and have paid my entire way - but I've seen many who have been forced to quit college on account of lack of support.

The fact that mature students, who are intending to move to another county to study are assessed on their parents income, is ludicrous. So don't come on here, pretending to be naive - thinking that people are not struggling to make it into or through college due to financial concerns.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Once again how does your SF crowd propose to address the above?

We've consistently opposed attacks on facilities in our local hospitals. We've worked alongside workers, to work in their best interests since the inception of this state. And we certainly aren't going to impose mandatory private health insurance on people who cannot afford it.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

We've consistently opposed attacks on facilities in our local hospitals.

How about attacks on Gardai and their resources ?

The_Honeybadger

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not an issue of "working" flipping burgers. Please don't be obtuse. It's about forcing students to work long hours, on account of having no government support - which directly affects their education. I've worked all through college - and have paid my entire way - but I've seen many who have been forced to quit college on account of lack of support.

The fact that mature students, who are intending to move to another county to study are assessed on their parents income, is ludicrous. So don't come on here, pretending to be naive - thinking that people are not struggling to make it into or through college due to financial concerns.

I must say this wasn't a widespread problem when I was in college, I saw many people drop out, but not because of lack of support or working long hours. Many lacked motivation and interest and spent long hours doing anything but course work, a far bigger problem for todays pampered youth. I worked right through college and always managed to keep up, some people wouldn't be bothered doing this. I know some courses are more demanding than others before you jump down my throat. But overall I doubt there are that many dropping out on economic grounds, Is there any data on this I wonder?

Permabear

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RichardAnd

mickeyk wrote: »

I must say this wasn't a widespread problem when I was in college, I saw many people drop out, but not because of lack of support or working long hours. Many lacked motivation and interest and spent long hours doing anything but course work, a far bigger problem for todays pampered youth. I worked right through college and always managed to keep up, some people wouldn't be bothered doing this. I know some courses are more demanding than others before you jump down my throat. But overall I doubt there are that many dropping out on economic grounds, Is there any data on this I wonder?

Agreed. In fact, it can be argued that the standard of graduates actually dropped by the state paying their fees. I once had the lack of foresight to mention this to a group of students when I was approached in the street to sign some petition to stop "FF's right wing mandate against Irish students". Naturally, I was verbally set upon by 5 or 6 of them berating me and my "nazi opinions".

Naturally, FG would support the students and continue to burn millions sending everyone and their dog to college to study ludicrous courses such as Jam making or Basket Weaving. Like I said in my above post, FG are just telling people what they want to hear to gain their votes.

dlofnep

mickeyk wrote: »

I must say this wasn't a widespread problem when I was in college, I saw many people drop out, but not because of lack of support or working long hours. Many lacked motivation and interest and spent long hours doing anything but course work, a far bigger problem for todays pampered youth. I worked right through college and always managed to keep up, some people wouldn't be bothered doing this. I know some courses are more demanding than others before you jump down my throat. But overall I doubt there are that many dropping out on economic grounds, Is there any data on this I wonder?

I can only tell you what I've witnessed personally. And it wasn't on account of them not wanting to continue their education.

ei.sdraob

Good one @df

I really find the Marxists notions of "workers" being treated unfairly in modern day Ireland amusing

next they be telling us that someone on 36K is low paid, oh wait...

@dlofnep
do you want a medal? I also had to work flipping burgers and stocking shelves right thru college, big wow
I came out ok in the end, once again if anything it made me appreciate education i was getting and learn what work ethic means


you are just rehashing the same old

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

line in your posts here

but when pressed on whom decides on abilities and needs, and more importantly who pays for it, you go quiet

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, I wouldn't be hard-pressed to make that case whatsoever. Access to education is a problem. I've provided a very clear scenario of a mature student being means tested on their parents income, but yet you have avoided discussing it - and provided me with meaningless figures, that do not discuss those who have been forced to leave college, or have no being able to attend college for financial reasons.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Education benefits nobody? There is a huge problem with lack of employment at the moment. I would much rather people educated themselves, than sit around waiting for things to happen. To say that we have too much education is asinine.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't study hospitality, or culinary. Do you? Or are you commenting out of ignorance? I wonder if those students would consider it a waste of taxpayer's money.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, they don't. They want to cover the costs of food, materials, transport, and a roof over their heads. The students that you are referring to, are the students who do not put in the effort in college. Not everyone falls under this category, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make students out to be a bunch of wasters.

Many students have problems with funding their way through college, and this is a legitimate concern. Your snide comments aside, you cannot refute this fact.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I have also done so, and I can say that working has affected my education. I've often had to work late until midnight, while I've had an exam at 9 the next morning. While I'm more than happy to work and earn my keep - I know many others who have struggled alot to make it through college.

You have STILL not addressed a valid point I brought up about mature students being means tested on their parents income. But knowing you, you're against state support - so you're not overly bothered by the struggles of those who are scraping by.

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

G
@dlofnep
do you want a medal? I also had to work flipping burgers and stocking shelves right thru college, big wow
I came out ok in the end, once again if anything it made me appreciate education i was getting and learn what work ethic means


you are just rehashing the same old

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

line in your posts here

but when pressed on whom decides on abilities and needs, and more importantly who pays for it, you go quiet

If you respond to me in such a manner again, I will place you on ignore. Either discuss the topic at hand with me, in a mature manner - taking in the points that I have presented, or do not respond to my posts.

I didn't ask you for recognition, nor did I discuss anything about the value of earning your keep. I am quite clearly discussing the reality that many students cannot afford to put themselves through college. You've avoided this quite categorically, and instead turned it into a red herring.

RichardAnd

dlofnep wrote: »

If you respond to me in such a manner again, I will place you on ignore. Either discuss the topic at hand with me, in a mature manner - taking in the points that I have presented, or do not respond to my posts.

I didn't ask you for recognition, nor did I discuss anything about the value of earning your keep. I am quite clearly discussing the reality that many students cannot afford to put themselves through college. You've avoided this quite categorically, and instead turned it into a red herring.

You are correct that many people can not afford to go to college. Many people also can not afford to keep a roof over their head and many people can not afford to feed themselves. The reason? Money.

I'm not saying this is right but what you have mentions is a simple fact of the world. If you don't have the money, you don't get the goods. This will not change.

Permabear

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danman

donegalfella wrote: »

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Excellant post Donegalfella.
You raised a lot of points that I've never thought of.

When I went to university, 2 students out of my 40 student primary school class went on to 3rd level education.
We both ended up in the same uni and both worked in bars together.
Personally I worked in 3 bars during the week.

This wasn't in the 60's or the 70's it was barely the 90's.

I didn't realise that 66% of 18 year olds now go on to 3rd level.

My, how times have changed. And yet, it's still not considered good enough.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ah there you go again with meaningless figures. Every second person this, and 100,000 that. Many people are unable to attend college, due to lack of support. Many of my friends fit into this category - and not because they didn't work, or went out on routine nights our drinking as you would like to have them portrayed.

I've provided an example for you, where a student cannot enter college - based on their parents income, despite being a mature student. So you either oppose state support for students altogether, or you're unable to tackle this topic.

donegalfella wrote: »

It's not. Government policy has been too focused on quantity at the expense of quality. Packing thousands of students into silly, Mickey Mouse courses is considered to be a wonderful achievement because all these people are in "third level" and getting "degrees."

The colleges themselves design the structure of their courses. While some courses need improvements, and some staff need to be upskilled (I'm not in disagreement about this) - Would you prefer that they sat on the dole? Because with the second highest unemployment rates for young people in Europe (25%) - this is the alternative for them.

What is your alternative for them? Go seek work that does not exist? Remain on the dole, rather than receiving state support for being educated - to where they will be more valuable to the economy at a later date?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So you've passed judgement on all such courses, based on the words of one person? Marvelous.

average_runner

I went to college was it was basically state paid and have to say there is good points and bad to it.


Half of my course dropped out after 6 months as lost interest or party too much. Now I did party but got the balance right.

I think the government should do some of the following:

If you complete your course you get it free, otherwise you pay for the years you wasted, certain amount out of your pay packet a month.

Or government provide loans and students pay that when they start working again.


Free education is a good but unfortunately us Irish abuse it way too much so it needs to change.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

I didn't ask you for recognition, nor did I discuss anything about the value of earning your keep. I am quite clearly discussing the reality that many students cannot afford to put themselves through college. You've avoided this quite categorically, and instead turned it into a red herring.

It is not that hard to put yourself thru' college here, seriously now,
what exactly can the student in your example not afford? details please
If anything its much easier than just about everywhere else in the world, where you would come out with large debts for your education


Most people who dropped out of college in my class literally had no interest in anything but drink and didnt show up, and then failed out of 100 starting 25 or so finished, rest either changed course or went working in construction! (where there was more money), that was one giant waste of taxpayers money right there

Only one person had to drop out to help his disabled wife, he was a mature student, no problems getting a nice German car while being on welfare/support too, of which he was quite proud too and like to brag about

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dannyboy83

Too much exaggeration & too much caricature in this thread. On both sides.

I think I'll skip this one.

ei.sdraob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Too much exaggeration & too much caricature in this thread. On both sides.

I think I'll skip this one.

Its real life experience, mate

And yes a "caricature" is a good word

zootroid

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah there you go again with meaningless figures. Every second person this, and 100,000 that. Many people are unable to attend college, due to lack of support. Many of my friends fit into this category - and not because they didn't work, or went out on routine nights our drinking as you would like to have them portrayed.

I've provided an example for you, where a student cannot enter college - based on their parents income, despite being a mature student. So you either oppose state support for students altogether, or you're unable to tackle this topic.



The colleges themselves design the structure of their courses. While some courses need improvements, and some staff need to be upskilled (I'm not in disagreement about this) - Would you prefer that they sat on the dole? Because with the second highest unemployment rates for young people in Europe (25%) - this is the alternative for them.

What is your alternative for them? Go seek work that does not exist? Remain on the dole, rather than receiving state support for being educated - to where they will be more valuable to the economy at a later date?



So you've passed judgement on all such courses, based on the words of one person? Marvelous.

You dismiss Donegalfella's arguement on the basis that he provided meaningless figures, and then you go onto to give anecdotal evidence. Then you dismiss his views on tourism courses on the basis his knowledge of it is anecdotal. Bit hypocritical is you ask me.

And I'm not for one second dismissing all anecdotal evidence. In fact I would give some notice to it rather than think "this course is a degree, it must be good".

You're friends may not be in a position to go to college, but that is not to say that the state should pick up the tab entirely.

average_runner wrote: »

I went to college was it was basically state paid and have to say there is good points and bad to it.


Half of my course dropped out after 6 months as lost interest or party too much. Now I did party but got the balance right.

I think the government should do some of the following:

If you complete your course you get it free, otherwise you pay for the years you wasted, certain amount out of your pay packet a month.

Or government provide loans and students pay that when they start working again.


Free education is a good but unfortunately us Irish abuse it way too much so it needs to change.

I would be in favour of this. If a student enrolls in a college, he should be given a student loan to cover the cost of tuition and basic living expenses, that he can start paying back once he graduates. The state is effectively making an investment in its people. And it may force students to seriously consider their career as they know they will be taking on debt upon graduation, and may persuade other students who only had the intention of partying for a few years to seek a career path that's more suitable to them.

My own circumstances are that I am training to be an accountant. I pay for the exam fees and tuition fees myself. I am doing this as I know the rewards will be good as soon as I qualify. And although i went to university for free myself, I think this way is much better as it provides an additional incentive to do well.

Forcing students to pay for themselves will not only help save the state some money, it will also help students mature and take responsibility for their own career. The state cannot be responsible for everything.

Drumpot

donegalfella wrote: »

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When I talk about this topic with friends, it never ceases to amaze me how low the bar has been set by everybody in terms of replacing FF. . .

Do I think FF should be replaced . . Certainly a large crop of the long standing members need to be put out to graze .. .

Do I think FG or Labour will improve things ? In terms of policy, Im not sure what they will do as they seem to be really confortable sitting at the dinner table with everybody . .

Will they make the right decisions for the greater good of the country and be any less "dodgy" ? We can only hope so . . But the fact that they were demanding more expenditure during the good years and the fact that Gilemore and Co rolled back on an obvious PR stunt (to take voluntary paycuts) says to me that its not simply about replacing the FF old guard.

There has to be a change of culture and attitudes by the electorate for there to be a REAL change in government . . We need to demand accountability, greater good (national) policies and integrity from the TD coming to our door, looking for our vote. .

Ask most people why they will not vote FF and they will say something like "Im not voting for that shower" or "we need change". Ask them to elaborate on that and it really boils down to them not actually thinking about what "change" means . . I want political upheavel. . I dont necessarily think we need a new party, more a new approach to politics. And the biggest problem is that the way our system is setup, it all starts at the votes of the electorate (who I feel are very naive).

Put simply, its not enough to say "lets get rid of FF". . Lets get rid of the modern political culture that exists in all parties. . Demand more from your politician whether it be Labour, FG or FF . .