Why do you think we we do what we do?

fatmammycat

Somebody said something recently to me that I found utterly fascinating. She said, 'men dont even like how women look, they're repulsed by our bodies really.'
I didn't agree whole heartedly, but I knew what she meant. Hair on your legs- ugh, hair on your fanny -ugh, stretch marks -ugh, -hair under the arms -ugh, breasts that have dropped from having children- ugh, cellulite- ugh, faint hair on your upper lip- ugh. Every single thing we can and do get naturally has been drummed into us as somehow disgusting. It was interesting to me as a woman to think about and see some truth in what she was saying.

Conditioning you see, we all buy into it.

Actually, I don't feel I should drag this post off topic. Sorry OP. I'll make a new post on the subject.

Emme

fatmammycat wrote: »

Somebody said something recently to me that I found utterly fascinating. She said, 'men dont even like how women look, they're repulsed by our bodies really.
I didn't agree whole heartedly, but I knew what she meant. Hair on your legs- ugh, hair on your fanny -ugh, stretch marks -ugh, -hair under the arms -ugh, breasts that have dropped from having children- ugh, cellulite- ugh, faint hair on your upper lip- ugh. Every single thing we can and do get naturally has been drummed into us as somehow disgusting. It was interesting to me as a woman to think about and see some truth in what she was saying.

Conditioning you see, we all buy into it.

I agree. There's currently in the Gentlemen's Lounge discussing the issue of pubic hair on women and it seems that most men would prefer if women waxed their pubic hair. Femininity (the accepted notion of how a woman should look) is lauded but femaleness (the reality of how a woman is) is seem as disgusting. The internet is really hammering this notion into men with the way women are presented in porn. Some men expect women to look and act like pornstars and would probably die of fright if they woke up beside a "real" woman with body hair and body fat.

fatmammycat

This is a new post stemming from a thread I did not want to disrupt.

Somebody said something recently to me that I found utterly fascinating. She said, 'men dont even like how women look, they're repulsed by our bodies really.'
I didn't agree whole heartedly, but I knew what she meant. Hair on your legs- ugh, hair on your fanny -ugh, stretch marks -ugh, -hair under the arms -ugh, breasts that have dropped from having children- ugh, cellulite- ugh, faint hair on your upper lip- ugh. Every single thing we can and do get naturally has been drummed into us as somehow disgusting. It was interesting to me as a woman to think about and see some truth in what she was saying.

Conditioning you see, we all buy into it.

My question was do you feel like she does? Do you feel we spend too much time plucking and waxing and preening to suit the whims of the opposite sex? To make ourselves acceptable. Why can't they accept us as we are? Why should we feel ashamed of body hair? Do we even do it for men or is it because of each other?
I want women to be able to speak freely on the topic, and I actually would prefer if men kept their opinons to themselves for this one.
Thanks

g'em

It's funny, I really don't know how much I buy into this whole conditioning malarky. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that ideals and popular perception of perfection is very heavily influenced by the media, but as animals we have basic biological drives behind so much of what we consider "attractiveness" (and is 9 times out of 10 rooted in fertility indicators).

The preference for hairlessness can be argued to be an evolutionary preference by our hominid ancestors - the loss of hair was an indicator of an evolving body. URL="http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/419"]Funnily enough a woman's preference for male body hair can be shown to change according to where in her menstural cycle she is[/URL.

As for what your friend said, I don't think she's right at all - the reality is that when you get nekkid with a guy who's into you, he is REALLY NOT paying atention to your stretch marks and a few stray hairs on your bits, he's utterly besotted with the fabulousness of hte body in front of him. What some women (and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say younger women) seem to think that men like and don't like often seems to be rather different according to many of the opinions I've read here.

So yeah, sure, there's a certain amount of conditioning there, but it's not all evil and nasty. It's perfectly ok for a man (or woman) to have attraction preferences, but I think your friend is grossly over-dramatising waht those preferences are. Guys don't notice stretch marks, they aren't looking for barbie doll perfection, and it's the women who think they do who (I think) are perpetuating that belief. You can't look at lads' mags and think that they're the gospel for what a guy likes - that's their fantasty world. Their reality is usually a little different, and we should give them credit for that

minidazzler

Just like women dress for other women, women preen themselves for other women TBH.

"Men don't even like how women look they're repulsed by our bodies really"

Eh, BULL, utter tripe. You show me ANY woman at all in the world. I will show you 10 guys who could or would be attracted to her.

I LOVE how women look, I love everything about women, I have all their albums.

Nowadays men have been exposed to what some thing is how women should look. So there are alot of men who won't tolerate a woman with arm hair, leg hair, and what not. But in the same vein there are still plenty of men who will.

As I said, I believe women do these things for other women, to it in so to speak.

Macha

Just look at the shock that the famous picture with the roll of belly fat elicited from men. Granted, not all men by a long shot. But some completely buy into the perfect body myth. I find these men are best avoided!

So just like some men think that women's bodies should be perfect, so some women also think that men believe that women's bodies should be perfect (if I'm making sense..).

Women need to stop beating themselves up about their bodies and ignore the body police - easier said than done, I know.

g'em

Emme wrote: »

I agree. There's currently in the Gentlemen's Lounge discussing the issue of pubic hair on women and it seems that most men would prefer if women waxed their pubic hair. Femininity (the accepted notion of how a woman should look) is lauded but femaleness (the reality of how a woman is) is seem as disgusting. The internet is really hammering this notion into men with the way women are presented in porn. Some men expect women to look and act like pornstars and would probably die of fright if they woke up beside a "real" woman with body hair and body fat.

Firstly a small group of men on an internet forum is hardly representative of what the male population as a whole feels. Secondly just because something is "real" it doesn't make it any more or less attractive, and no-one should be made feel guilty of that. I have a preference for a trimmed or shaved groin area on a guy, it makes him no less male or no less masculine, it's quite simply something I prefer for comfort and aesthetics. Like wise for a bloke when having a preference for my bits.

Have you watched much porn? If you have then you'll know that there's a wide, WIDE range of female body sizes, shapes and hairiness involved. Can you not credit men with the intelligence to know when something is realistic and when it's fantasy?

Wibbs

g'em wrote: »

Have you watched much porn? If you have then you'll know that there's a wide, WIDE range of female body sizes, shapes and hairiness involved. Can you not credit men with the intelligence to know when something is realistic and when it's fantasy?

+1. Do a search for fat hairy porn and you'll get a lot more results than for anorexic shaved porn. And even fewer women the type of which you'll see in Vogue.

Though I would somewhat agree with fatmammycat in the opposite way though. In the sense do men actually like women as people beyond their physical appearance? That's a more telling one IMHO and the answer I would say is more don't than admit it. Men may say they like women, but a lot say it more because of their physicality more than who they are as people. Men will take far more crap from a woman they consider beautiful physically than one they consider plain and they wouldn't have much time for the same person as a man.

liah

minidazzler wrote: »

Eh, BULL, utter tripe. You show me ANY woman at all in the world. I will show you 10 guys who could or would be attracted to her.

/cue Mary Harney joke.

It's because if a woman is made up, hairless, perfectly fit and smells like a rose in this age it generally means the woman came from a wealthy background, or at least came into it, looks after herself, isn't lazy, etc. The perception of attraction changes by the century, mainly depending on the symbols of wealth. Historically when food wasn't plentiful as it is today, larger women were considered more attractive. Now that food is over-plentiful it's seen as unattractive to be large. You get the idea.

Otherwise, yeah, it doesn't make much evolutionary sense for men to be repulsed by body hair/odour/bad skin, as this happens to pretty much everyone and it would leave them with very little to choose from.

fatmammycat

I should point out that I hadn't given the subject a whole lot of thought until she said what she said, but I find I agree with her to a certain point. It's summer time almost, how many of us women- and I include myself here- would walk down the street with hairy legs, or hair under our armpits? Why is it in the gym now it is almost impossible to see an unshaved or unwaxed pubis?

(On the subject of porn, I don't look at any of it. I've never been interested in watching other people having sex, I personally find porn a bit sad)

You could also be right g'em that it is more a younger woman's issue, I'm 37 and much more confident in my body type, but I know a 18 year old who swears nary a one of her friends would be caught dead with more than a strip down below. They would be 'morto' apparently.

g'em

fatmammycat wrote: »

I should point out that I hadn't given the subject a whole lot of thought until she said what she said, but I find I agree with her to a certain point. It's summer time almost, how many of us women- and I include myself here- would walk down the street with hairy legs, or hair under our armpits? Why is it in the gym now it is almost impossible to see an unshaved or unwaxed pubis?

Because it gets too hot Hairy underarms leave me looking like a sweaty Betty in no time, and ditto for the groin area tbh. I find that the less hair there is, the cleaner I feel and stay.

fatmammycat wrote:

(On the subject of porn, I don't look at any of it. I've never been interested in watching other people having sex, I personally find porn a bit sad)

What a delightfully passive aggressive comment to stick in there...

fatmammycat wrote:

I know a 18 year old who swears nary a one of her friends would be caught dead with more than a strip down below. They would be 'morto' apparently.

Well that's more down to the pressure they put on each other than anything. I do genuinely feel for younger women now - the pressure they must feel to conform is probably overwhelming. There's a lot more bombardement of the 'ideal form' (according to who though, that's the question that always seems to go unanswered!) in the media now than there was 10 years ago.

And in fairness, now that I think about it, wasn't there a show on Channel 4 a while back that showed late-teen school children a rake of photos of genitalia and asked them to point at which ones they preferred - most of them chose the "perfect" ones.

But in all honesty I think that's a false attraction - it's just what they've been exposed to, they more than likely don't know that there's a whole range of bodies and bits out there. Sure, you can argue that they've been conditioned, but I don't think it's the case, I think that as they mature and their attraction preferences develop, that idealism will get diluted.

Perhaps that's a little naive of me to think, but every generation has its ideals and yet every generation still strives of individuality.

minidazzler

g'em wrote: »

And in fairness, now that I think about it, wasn't there a show on Channel 4 a while back that showed late-teen school children a rake of photos of genitalia and asked them to point at which ones they preferred - most of them chose the "perfect" ones.

This isn't surprising though, the "perfect" ones were probably symmetrical yes? In general symmetry is pleasing to the eye, so it stands to reason that is what would be picked.

(Redacted the rest because I agreed with it, not to ignore it.)

fatmammycat

I'm not being passive aggressive about porn at all, I genuinely don't enjoy it and sad is the reaction it causes in me. I find it deeply unerotic. If I had a different slant on it I'd use that.

It was the 'morto' comment that made me pause, that she would feel shame to carry hair on pubic region. Now I know at 18 I was hyper aware of everything, teenagers are, but I don't think I ever felt shame about anything. Or if I did I've forgotten about it. Which could well be the case.

minidazzler

fatmammycat wrote: »

I'm not being passive aggressive about porn at all, I genuinely don't enjoy it and sad is the reaction it causes in me. I find it deeply unerotic. If I had a different slant on it I'd use that.

It was the 'morto' comment that made me pause, that she would feel shame to carry hair on pubic region. Now I know at 18 I was hyper aware of everything, teenagers are, but I don't think I ever felt shame about anything. Or if I did I've forgotten about it. Which could well be the case.

There is a weird divide between porn and erotica TBH. All erotica is porn, but not all porn is erotica.

And as you have forgotten about it, so will these girls. They are following a trend they think is what guys want. (and admittedly alot of guys do.) They will more than likely realise as they get older that not much is needed speciality wise for guys to want them.

Novella

I'm pretty young (20) but I actually never thought of men as being repulsed by womens bodies. When it comes to hair removal, myself and my friends have never ever spoken about it in a way like, "Oh, gotta shave my legs or every guy will think I'm gross".

There have often been times when myself (or friends of mine) will end up getting a little busy with someone unexpectedly and have a teeny bit of stubble. I don't think it's a biggie. I've never had anyone running for the hills or heard any of my friends mentioning that the guy even noticed.

I think it's ok for men to have a preference when it comes to a ladies pubic hair or whatever. I mean, they're the one's who are going to be down there and who wants a mouthful of hair? I doubt they'd get up and leave if everything wasn't smooth and if they did, I wouldn't consider that a loss.

Why do we do what we do? I shave my legs because smooth legs feel nicer, not even for anyone else, but for myself. I suppose it's also because I'm conditioned to think that hairless legs look better. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing though. As for underarms etc., well imo that's just a matter of cleanliness.

If a man is repulsed by stretch marks, then he seriously needs to get out more. The majority of people have them. I dunno. I just really don't think men are honestly repulsed by all this stuff. Isn't the nice part of sex just being able to be comfortable enough with someone to show them yourself naked, flaws and all? I think it is anyway, and if we were all 'perfect' and looked the same, then we wouldn't have that anymore. I'm sure guys have just as many body hang-up's.

C_J

I think women generally "groom" for themselves rather than men.
I know that I feel a lot better about myself and sexier when I've smooth legs. As for underarm and pubic hair, that is definately just hygiene for me...
Tbh I don't think men really care either way. They may have preferences....as do we all:)....but thy're not going to kick you out of bed for having a week's worth of hair on your legs now and again!:D

krudler

you know whats funny? I've been with my girlfriend for over two years and I've never seen her in her "natural" state, i.e unshaved legs (well seen them before she was about to get them waxed and let it grow for a while, didnt bother me though) unshaved armpits, no makeup (I've seen her without any makeup whatsover after she showers and what have you, but its only for a few mins while she gets ready). But its always groomed in one state or another. Men get that women have a lot to look after with all the shaving, plucking, waxing, styling and all that jazz that goes along with being a modern woman. But we're definitely not repulsed by your natural state, we cant help it if you look fab when you're all dolled up

On the flip side of this though, women have an unfair advantage when it comes to making themselves look good, you can wear makeup to hide freckles, imperfections and such, you can do your hair in different ways to appeal to the opposite sex, you wear heels to make yourself look taller and legs look better, fake tan to look healthier (I'm not a fan of it though) you have mascara, bronzer, foundation, lip gloss, a million other things to make yourself look better (and i mean that purely in the cosmetic sense, the way the vast majority of girls look on a night out i.e dolled up to the nines) us men have..well lets see, aftershave, can maybe trim our facial hair, style our hair in such a way...and thats it. no makeup to hide our spots and freckles, no mascara or eyeliner to bring out our eyes, no hair extensions to look more glam than we are. We can throw on a suit or some nice clothes sure, but the rest is all us. I'm probably going to get lambasted for this but if any girl disagrees with me, I challenge you to go on a night out au natural, the vast majority of women wouldnt dream of going out without some sort of makeup on or something done to themselves. Everyone likes looking their best but you girls have an awful lot more help than us lads.

I wonder if men wearing makeup was more socially acceptable, even the norm, would many guys do it?

C_J

I think freckles look good on people, don't know why either sex would have to cover them! Make up is definately a godsend when it comes to spots though:) I still maintain that we women get dolled up as much because of other women as men.
Although maybe I shouldn't make a giant sweeping generalisation like that......but I know I do:)

krudler

C_J wrote: »

I think freckles look good on people, don't know why either sex would have to cover them! Make up is definately a godsend when it comes to spots though:) I still maintain that we women get dolled up as much because of other women as men.
Although maybe I shouldn't make a giant sweeping generalisation like that......but I know I do:)

Absolutely, I love my girlfriends freckles I think they're adorable

Its true as well that women try to impress other women moreso than men, I remember talking about this one night with a few girls and they all pretty much said its about looking good for themselves and other girls, then men.

There is a lot of bitchiness among girls about their appearance though, you see it all the time on nights out, you'd almost never get a guy saying "oh my good look at his shirt!" unless it was something completely ridiculous, but you often see bitchy girls slagging off other womens dresses or shoes or whatever, its so odd.

skywards

krudler wrote: »

There is a lot of bitchiness among girls about their appearance though, you see it all the time on nights out, you'd almost never get a guy saying "oh my good look at his shirt!" unless it was something completely ridiculous, but you often see bitchy girls slagging off other womens dresses or shoes or whatever, its so odd.

Agree.

shellyboo

I totally disagree. Never ever ever, not once in my life, have I been naked in front of a man and seen disapproval in his eyes. Never have I been told to shave anywhere by a man, never been told I need makeup, heels, nicer clothes... Anything. My experience is overwhelmingly the opposite - I've had more than one boyfriend who preferred me not to wear makeup, and I can't think of one who'd notice or care if my underarms/groin/legs were stubbly.

We put this pressure to preen on ourselves... It's not men forcing us to do it, and it's definitely not just men who'd be disgusted if we didn't. I can guarantee that if I stopped shaving my legs and underarms tomorrow I'd have more negative comments from women than men.

Not all men are woman-hating body hair Nazis... In fact I'd say very few are.

C_J

I always find it interesting though that there is a vast number of women who are in agreement that we dress, get made up for each other as opposed to men and agree that it is "odd":pac: and unnecessary but yet we still do it all the time. I can guarantee you that when I go out on saturday night, every girl in the pub will be dolled up to the nines - skirts/dresses will be on, tan, big hair, 6 inch heels(ouch!!),etc and when they walk in it won't be the guy's reaction they'll be looking at but the other girls. It makes no sense whatsoever but we all do it and I'm no different. The competition between women is unreal.

On the whole hair thing -I have one friend who would be absolutely disgusted if I didn't shave my legs for 4/5 days and would have no qualms in letting me know either:D On the other side, the guy i'm seeing now has called over unexpectedly on occasion and I've been caught out with stubbly legs and a very inbetween wax pubic area and tbh I don't even think he noticed. Or at least if he did, he made no mention of it and it didn't put him off in the slightest;)

princess-lala

Anything I do to my body I do for myself, not for a man or my friends!

Like Novella said the feel of shaved legs is much softer & smoother that big rough legs! Same with under the arms!

If a man saw me without the war paint and hairy legs and what not and didnt find me attractive Id think there was something wrong with him! Im doing it for myself and if other people are repulsed by that fine by me! Im out to impress nobody

And + 1 on what Krudler said, women have loads to help them along the way of looking better, men have nothing! They cant hide any of their hang up just like we can!

krudler

princess-lala wrote: »

Anything I do to my body I do for myself, not for a man or my friends!

Like Novella said the feel of shaved legs is much softer & smoother that big rough legs! Same with under the arms!

If a man saw me without the war paint and hairy legs and what not and didnt find me attractive Id think there was something wrong with him! Im doing it for myself and if other people are repulsed by that fine by me! Im out to impress nobody

And + 1 on what Krudler said, women have loads to help them along the way of looking better, men have nothing! They cant hide any of their hang up just like we can!

I thought I was going to get strung up for that comment:D It is true though, I find the amount of products my missus uses absolutely baffling. I take care of myself in the sense I exfoliate my skin and that but I cant still get ready for a night out in a half hour when I want to, and of course everyone likes looking their best for themselves.
Theres nothing worse than having to go out when your hair wont do what you want it to or you had to get ready in a rush and dont feel like you put in as much effort as you should, other people probably wont even notice but you know and it reduces your enjoyment of the night sometimes.

Shivers26

For me personally, most of my grooming efforts would be for myself. I dont like hairy legs so I shave them. I dont really get any growth at all under my arms (its a bit weird actually) and I get bikini waxes because I tried it once 'just to see' and now I am addicted. I look and feel better when I do it. I also dont have any stretch marks (miracle after 2 kids). I dont like fake tan but I keep my skin in good condition and it looks nice enough.

I ran the ideas being discussed in this thread past my OH earlier and he said he wouldnt be overly bothered if my legs werent done and he would never notice if I did my eyebrows or not. He did however say that he is attracted to me in a different way when I am done up (make-up, dress, heels) than when I am just in more casual gear. He still fancies me but when I'm done up its like stop and stare fancy.

I would find though that a compliment from a female friend would mean more to me when I was done up that a compliment from a male.

Dudess

Definitely in agreement with the view that pressure to have the perfect female body generally comes from females moreso than males - often subconsciously though.