So you're an EMT...big deal!

sedgley

I passed my EMT exams with IATI last year, I loved every minute of the course and I was absolutely delighted when I got my exam results. I couldn't wait to get out there and get a job doing what I love. Yeah right!

Firstly, I was only one of the hundreds of EMTs looking for work. Then PHECC changed the standards for the privates (1 EMT, 1 Para) and to top it all off, PHECC changed the transport standards for the countless vols who were given the go-ahead to train people who up to EMT level through their own organisations at no cost to the trainee (sorry vols but this kills me! I even know people who joined a certain vol org and within 3 months were EMTs). Finally, its a dead-end course; not possible to upskill and furthermore not possible to privately train to Paramedic level in this country...

I felt as if i'd really achieved something big when I got my NQEMT cert, little plastic card and pin number. Now I feel like i've done little more than a glorified first aid course. I don't know if its just me who feels a little hard-done-by for my 2,500 Euro. I certainly don't feel special because i'm a "practitioner". Maybe i'm dramatising it. All I know is that no ambulance service wants EMTs anymore.

I think PHECC need to do some rethinking;

1. for starters they need to commission the universities to teach a Paramedic Science course with an EMT pre-entry requirement.
2. they need to regulate the amount of EMT licences being dished out or we'll end up like the taxi industry.
3. they need to start informing people that the EMT licence will quite frankly not get you straight into the ambulance service.
4. the organisations running EMT courses should be required to interview EVERY applicant to assess their suitability to the course and to EMS life and select only those who meet the criteria.

Sorry for the big long rant guys but this is something that has me absolutely fuming :mad:.

maglite

I feel sorry for you but I think you were misinformed.

EMT is a basic qualification, very basic. It is not suitable as a profession. If you look at it it is only about 4 weeks long. So what if the vols are getting it for free, they need the EMTs to work.

Your giving out that PHECC are promoting upskilling? €2500 is small money for a qualification. I know the certain Galway crowd are looking at paramedic upskilling, other than that you can go to the UK or US.

I'd be in favor of Paramedic 3rd level courses but the idea of an EMT pre req is silly. Regulate in what way? the country needs literally 1000's of EMTs. When did PHECC say EMT was a ticket into the ambulance service, a 3rd party employer. Interviews? why wither they pass or they don't.

paraletic

just because you have a qualification doesn't mean you are entitled to a job,
EMT in ireland is a very good standard, but the practitioners licence doesn't mean phecc have to help you work on an ambulance, if you feel like a glorified first aider, that isn't pheccs fault.

PHECC are right to try and keep minimum standards high, or they might as well put first aiders on ambulances.

i don't believe paramedics should be taken in through the CAO process, or with any requirements to be EMT level first, but i do believe that they should be mature enough to do this as a career, at the moment you must be 21 to get the D1 licence, if the universities take in students it should be mature students, or continue selecting them the same way as NATS - in my opinion.

it is hard to get into the ambulance service -
listen for rumours but don't get your hopes to high when you hear them.
be patient - don't give up.

Elessar

sedgley wrote: »

I passed my EMT exams with IATI last year, I loved every minute of the course and I was absolutely delighted when I got my exam results. I couldn't wait to get out there and get a job doing what I love. Yeah right!

Firstly, I was only one of the hundreds of EMTs looking for work. Then PHECC changed the standards for the privates (1 EMT, 1 Para) and to top it all off, PHECC changed the transport standards for the countless vols who were given the go-ahead to train people who up to EMT level through their own organisations at no cost to the trainee (sorry vols but this kills me! I even know people who joined a certain vol org and within 3 months were EMTs). Finally, its a dead-end course; not possible to upskill and furthermore not possible to privately train to Paramedic level in this country...

I felt as if i'd really achieved something big when I got my NQEMT cert, little plastic card and pin number. Now I feel like i've done little more than a glorified first aid course. I don't know if its just me who feels a little hard-done-by for my 2,500 Euro. I certainly don't feel special because i'm a "practitioner". Maybe i'm dramatising it. All I know is that no ambulance service wants EMTs anymore.

I think PHECC need to do some rethinking;

Sorry for the big long rant guys but this is something that has me absolutely fuming :mad:.

I feel your pain sedgley, but look on the bright side. You have achieved something big with your EMT cert!! It is a nationally (and internationally) recognised pre-hospital care certification, which will be with you for life. There are what now, maybe 6-800 EMTs roughly in the country, of about 4 million people. Very few people have the qualifications you have to look after sick and injured people. I'm an EMT and I feel proud of the qualification, and rightly so. It's state registered, I can give certain drugs where needed and look after people until further help arrives or I handover to the A&E. Clinically we are very similar to Paramedics in terms of practical things we can do, and quite often when I have requested Paramedic backup at an incident, I have done everything that would have been done already (PCRs/bandages/collars/spinal boards/O2/ECG etc.) and the Paramedics just transport.

I don't know if you are in a vol, but I find that in my unit I am often the clinical leader on scene anyway, so people look to me to get things done. So the EMT is an excellent qualification and you shouldn't feel as if you have wasted your money. PHECC registration means you are known to be competent in pre-hospital care at that level. And by no means is that level glorified first aid. I don't know about anyone else but I feel proud that I can call myself a pre-hospital practitioner.

I don't know what you mean about PHECC and vol transport standards, EMTs can transport most uncomplicated patients. I haven't heard anything to the contrary.

I know it's impossible to upskill and that is unfair I feel. EMS is a closed shop in Ireland unfortunately, and if you're not in a statutory service you can forget about getting higher. I've often said it must be against Irish or EU competition law that only state employees can do Paramedic and AP training here. In England it's totally different, there are many universities teaching Paramedic Science degrees and students get placements without hassle with the various ambulance trusts. You don't have to work for the NHS.

I have heard that Frank McClintock said Paramedic training would be opened to the public once they have their required numbers for the NAS. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen.

1. for starters they need to commission the universities to teach a Paramedic Science course with an EMT pre-entry requirement.
2. they need to regulate the amount of EMT licences being dished out or we'll end up like the taxi industry.
3. they need to start informing people that the EMT licence will quite frankly not get you straight into the ambulance service.
4. the organisations running EMT courses should be required to interview EVERY applicant to assess their suitability to the course and to EMS life and select only those who meet the criteria.

1: I completely agree. Move training from the NASC to universities and gradually do away with Paramedic altogether. Have a 4 year Paramedic science degree resulting in graduate APs. Just like the UK. But there is one chance of that happening in this backwards country.

2. What?! Never going to happen. PHECC are there to protect the public, not practitioners! More EMTs in the country is only a good thing. Yeah there are no jobs, but you and I were just too late to that bandwagon.

3. Agreed. And that there is no work at the moment for EMTs. But that's not going to happen.

4. Again, not gonna happen. If people are willing to pay money, there are companies willing to train them, no matter who they are.

As I said, I feel your frustration. I want to upskill to Paramedic and might have to go abroad to do it. That's grossly unfair. Like you, I was hoping to get a full time job in a private service, but I graduated at the wrong time, the middle of a recession and when lots of others began doing the same thing. All I can do now is hope the NAS will be recruiting soon so I might get in there. If not, I'm may have to emigrate.

Then again this recession will be over eventually, things will pick up and jobs will start becoming available again. You never know what's around the corner. Just don't think your licence is worthless!

paraletic

Elessar wrote: »

1: I completely agree. Move training from the NASC to universities and gradually do away with Paramedic altogether. Have a 4 year Paramedic science degree resulting in graduate APs. Just like the UK. But there is one chance of that happening in this backwards country.

2. What?! Never going to happen. PHECC are there to protect the public, not practitioners! More EMTs in the country is only a good thing. Yeah there are no jobs, but you and I were just too late to that bandwagon.

3. Agreed. And that there is no work at the moment for EMTs. But that's not going to happen.

4. Again, not gonna happen. If people are willing to pay money, there are companies willing to train them, no matter who they are.

your first point, is a nice idea because the universities would train to a high level if it was working with the ambulance service (just like it is now in fact), but give the irish model a chance to train highly skilled experience APs, it is working, you can't see it because it is only a newish program. - we don't need to copy the british if our way is better!

i agree with point 2
the more EMTs, EFR, CFR, first aiders in our communities the better for every body, -they should teach EMT in transition year!

Elessar

paraletic wrote: »

your first point, is a nice idea because the universities would train to a high level if it was working with the ambulance service (just like it is now in fact), but give the irish model a chance to train highly skilled experience APs, it is working, you can't see it because it is only a newish program. - we don't need to copy the british if our way is better!

But don't you have to be working with the NAS for 5 years before you can apply for the AP program? The whole point of allowing universities to teach would be to take people in and after 4 years have them at the highest pre-hospital level, without needing to be employed by the state. A few years of that and I could see all ambulances being crewed with APs.

miju

sedgley wrote: »

Firstly, I was only one of the hundreds of EMTs looking for work. Then PHECC changed the standards for the privates (1 EMT, 1 Para) and to top it all off, PHECC changed the transport standards for the countless vols who were given the go-ahead to train people who up to EMT level through their own organisations at no cost to the trainee

So a vol puts in lots of work volunteering for sometimes mind numbing duties etc not expecting anything in return. Eventually they are "rewarded" with a free course that brings them up to EMT level if they wish and you begrudge that?

Personally speaking I'd value a CFR / EFR who has been with a vol for a few years than a newly qaulified EMT from a private course with no experience. I've seen them come into my vol organisation and their standard can be shocking.

Even if the above was true why didn't you join a vol organisation and get the training for free and be an EMT within three months like your friend?

sedgley wrote: »

(sorry vols but this kills me! I even know people who joined a certain vol org and within 3 months were EMTs). Finally, its a dead-end course; not possible to upskill and furthermore not possible to privately train to Paramedic level in this country...

I'd very much doubt someone who was in a vol organisation for 3 months was an EMT after that period unless they done it privately. Can't speak for how the other orgs decide who goes on an EMT course but OMAC you've got to be active for at least 3 years.

It's PHECC's job to change policy as they see fit and they obviously saw reason for implementing policy for upskilling. Most EMT courses cost about €2500 and tbh thats mickey mouse money for a qualification and tbh it's still a fairly basic qualification in the grand scheme of things when it comes to the medical sector.

If you do wish to upskill to a Paramedic then it would cost what it usually costs for a private qaulification and thats around the 15k mark which can be done in the UK and the US (i think).

murf313

It currently takes two years to become a paramedic in ireland... what makes you think after a 4 week emt course you should be able to upskill to paramedic level?

Elessar

murf313 wrote: »

It currently takes two years to become a paramedic in ireland... what makes you think after a 4 week emt course you should be able to upskill to paramedic level?

What makes you think we shouldn't?

murf313

Elessar wrote: »

What makes you think we shouldn't?

so you have done a 4 week emt course.... you haven't done any frontline emergency work. yet a trainee paramedic spends 5 weeks clinical placements, 4 weeks supernumery (on an emergency ambo), 12 weeks third man placements (emergency work again) and a 1 year internship, aswell as all the theory and exams.
how does it make sense that after a 4 week course and having no experience you should be entitled to automatically upskill to paramedic???

Elessar

murf313 wrote: »

so you have done a 4 week emt course.... you haven't done any frontline emergency work. yet a trainee paramedic spends 5 weeks clinical placements, 4 weeks supernumery (on an emergency ambo), 12 weeks third man placements (emergency work again) and a 1 year internship, aswell as all the theory and exams.
how does it make sense that after a 4 week course and having no experience you should be entitled to automatically upskill to paramedic???

"automatically"?? No, upskill by completing modules of the Paramedic course not already covered in the EMT, then all the placements, internship and exams. Why shouldn't we have this opportunity? (oh, of course, the HSE have a monopoly on training)

murf313

Elessar wrote: »

"automatically"?? No, upskill by completing modules of the Paramedic course not already covered in the EMT, then all the placements, internship and exams. Why shouldn't we have this opportunity? (oh, of course, the HSE have a monopoly on training)

ok im not saying you shouldnt have the opportunity but how would it be possible?
how are you going to do all the placements and the internship? NAS probably wont allow the placements on their ambulance and when will you make a living when your doing all this upskilling?
I dont think it can be done.....

Elessar

murf313 wrote: »

ok im not saying you shouldnt have the opportunity but how would it be possible?
how are you going to do all the placements and the internship? NAS probably wont allow the placements on their ambulance and when will you make a living when your doing all this upskilling?
I dont think it can be done.....

This is the crux of the matter. Go to the UK and observe how the ambulance trusts have student paramedics with them every day of the week, some on working contract (via their university) and some on unpaid placements. None of them working fulltime for the NHS. Why couldn't this be done here?

Because this is Ireland.

/rant

murf313

Elessar wrote: »

This is the crux of the matter. Go to the UK and observe how the ambulance trusts have student paramedics with them every day of the week, some on working contract (via their university) and some on unpaid placements. None of them working fulltime for the NHS. Why couldn't this be done here?

Because this is Ireland.

/rant

ah but would you be willing to go on unpaid placements knowing there wont be a job at the end of it all for you?
NAS isnt big enough to take hundreds of emts for placements and then give them a job afterwards. you would simply end up with lots of unemployed paramedics instead of emts.

Elessar

murf313 wrote: »

ah but would you be willing to go on unpaid placements knowing there wont be a job at the end of it all for you?
NAS isnt big enough to take hundreds of emts for placements and then give them a job afterwards. you would simply end up with lots of unemployed paramedics instead of emts.

But that's not the point. Maybe some people just want to be Paramedics to work in voluntary groups? Maybe some want to gain it in order to go abroad, transfers their skills and work there? Or maybe some want to work in the private sector? (I know that several of the larger private firms want to send their staff on a Paramedic course). Point being, it shouldn't be up to anyone to decide who should be able to train and who shouldn't.

murf313

Elessar wrote: »

But that's not the point. Maybe some people just want to be Paramedics to work in voluntary groups? Maybe some want to gain it in order to go abroad, transfers their skills and work there? Or maybe some want to work in the private sector? (I know that several of the larger private firms want to send their staff on a Paramedic course). Point being, it shouldn't be up to anyone to decide who should be able to train and who shouldn't.

im not saying people shouldnt be able to train to whatever level they want.....
however the logistics of upskilling an emt to paramedic level just isnt going to work. 4-weeks course compared to 2 year course = just doing the whole paramedic course anyway

Florence_N

One of the real issues is that people paid upwards of €2,500+expenses for a 4/5 week course, with the "promise" of jobs at the end and now realise that reality is completely different. In fact, there are no jobs and the voluntary orgs are upskilling members to EMT and not charging them thousands of €'s to do so.

touge_drift

sedgley wrote: »

I passed my EMT exams with IATI last year, I loved every minute of the course and I was absolutely delighted when I got my exam results. I couldn't wait to get out there and get a job doing what I love. Yeah right!

Firstly, I was only one of the hundreds of EMTs looking for work. Then PHECC changed the standards for the privates (1 EMT, 1 Para) and to top it all off, PHECC changed the transport standards for the countless vols who were given the go-ahead to train people who up to EMT level through their own organisations at no cost to the trainee (sorry vols but this kills me! I even know people who joined a certain vol org and within 3 months were EMTs). Finally, its a dead-end course; not possible to upskill and furthermore not possible to privately train to Paramedic level in this country...

I felt as if i'd really achieved something big when I got my NQEMT cert, little plastic card and pin number. Now I feel like i've done little more than a glorified first aid course. I don't know if its just me who feels a little hard-done-by for my 2,500 Euro. I certainly don't feel special because i'm a "practitioner". Maybe i'm dramatising it. All I know is that no ambulance service wants EMTs anymore.

I think PHECC need to do some rethinking;

1. for starters they need to commission the universities to teach a Paramedic Science course with an EMT pre-entry requirement.
2. they need to regulate the amount of EMT licences being dished out or we'll end up like the taxi industry.
3. they need to start informing people that the EMT licence will quite frankly not get you straight into the ambulance service.
4. the organisations running EMT courses should be required to interview EVERY applicant to assess their suitability to the course and to EMS life and select only those who meet the criteria.

Sorry for the big long rant guys but this is something that has me absolutely fuming :mad:.

havent logged on here in ages as i forgot my password. but im back after lurking in the shadows for quite some time.

i understand your frustration, but i advise anyone going to do that course privatly to do alot of research before paying that amount of money, alot of people i know who done in privatly were doing it as they were convinced they were going to get a job from it afterwards. alot of people i ahve spoken to were cought out by that fact!

i done it for free with omac last year and i am proud of the qualification, but im well aware where i stand in the grand running of things.

just apply for the dfb or nas the emt will look good on the cv and can only make it look better when applying for the above mentioned

touge_drift

goat2 wrote: »

i have only popped in here and reading posts
but my two cents is
i would prefer a person with 2 years qualification behind them, than person with 4 weeks, after all that is only 20 days 8 hours per day 160 hours, no thanks,

yes if you have just walked off the street and done it privatly, but many people in vol organisations have been at it maybe 5-20 years at this stage and have gone from first responder to emt with pletny of experence, ok admitedly its not als but its a tonne better then a emt who has no experence

sedgley

touge_drift wrote: »

yes if you have just walked off the street and done it privatly, but many people in vol organisations have been at it maybe 5-20 years at this stage and have gone from first responder to emt with pletny of experence, ok admitedly its not als but its a tonne better then a emt who has no experence

I went from Basic First Aid in 1996 to Intermediate First Aid in 1998, left the vols 2 years later but done the CFR in 2006, then paid to do the OFA, I have a lot of past experience in pre-hospital care so I decided to rejoin a vol in 2008, with this particular org it is near impossible to get a place on an EMT course so went out and did it privately anyway as its something I always wanted to do.

Elessar

goat2 wrote: »

i have only popped in here and reading posts
but my two cents is
i would prefer a person with 2 years qualification behind them, than person with 4 weeks, after all that is only 20 days 8 hours per day 160 hours, no thanks,

What are you talking about? Did you read the thread?

paraletic

i said it before: it is hard to get into the ambulance service, (at least it keeps the riff-raff out;)).
i can understand the frustration people looking to get in feel. but i also think that the current standards and recruitment is quite good,

i don't think the universities recruiting is a good idea, for example, lots of 18 year olds might think it sounds great being a paramedic, then do 4 years in college, only to realise at 22 that they made a mistake, and they don't like the job at all.
but in the current system it is 2 years training then 3 years on the road at least and then selection for the AP course
- HIGH STANDARDS -
that sould be the goal, not easy entry into the service.

if the universities did the training that would be fine, but leave the recruiting to the HSE. - if the ambulance service ever wants to be considered an emergency service we need to recruit on our own.

touge_drift

paraletic wrote: »

i said it before: it is hard to get into the ambulance service, (at least it keeps the riff-raff out;)).
i can understand the frustration people looking to get in feel. but i also think that the current standards and recruitment is quite good,

i don't think the universities recruiting is a good idea, for example, lots of 18 year olds might think it sounds great being a paramedic, then do 4 years in college, only to realise at 22 that they made a mistake, and they don't like the job at all.
but in the current system it is 2 years training then 3 years on the road at least and then selection for the AP course
- HIGH STANDARDS -
that sould be the goal, not easy entry into the service.

if the universities did the training that would be fine, but leave the recruiting to the HSE. - if the ambulance service ever wants to be considered an emergency service we need to recruit on our own.

being honest your right, it does keep the wrong people( or riff raff) out.

and agree with you about age.. at 18 i didnt know where was up and what i wanted to do with my life, i had an interest in ems/fire but that was it. and if i was a paramedic that young also i dont think i would of been ready to experence some of the stuff that greats you on a daily basis.
it took a few years of working crap jobs for me to realise what i realled wanted to do. now im just playing the waiting game like everyone else

punchdrunk

have you though to try and Join CHC and become a paramedic in the Coast Guard?

not sure how you'd go about it but it's a great job

touge_drift

punchdrunk wrote: »

have you though to try and Join CHC and become a paramedic in the Coast Guard?

not sure how you'd go about it but it's a great job

whats chc? and are the coast guard approved by phecc to use the 3rd edition cpg's?

punchdrunk

touge_drift wrote: »

whats chc? and are the coast guard approved by phecc to use the 3rd edition cpg's?

I honestly haven't a clue about the techy side of their medical training chief,I was more thinking aloud!

http://www.chc.ca/europe_ireland.php

why not email them for info?

Edit: this would imply that they are members of
phecc alright,to what degree I don't know

http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Publications%20&%20Media/Newsletter/PHECC%20Summer%20Newsletter%202009.pdf

sgthighway

punchdrunk wrote: »

have you though to try and Join CHC and become a paramedic in the Coast Guard?

not sure how you'd go about it but it's a great job

Do you you have to live near one of the locations of the Coast Guard?

You train to be a Paramedic and train to be a Rearcrew. AFAIK the Coast Guard Paramedics do their training in the same class as HSE Paramedics and do their clinical placement the same as a HSE Candidate.

I have got to know one of their Paramedics and he does say it is the best job in the world. Any Paramedic would get the same experience but 200 miles out over the Atlantic been lowered onto a Fishing Boat would be some buzz for some.

(I don't like flying and I get sea sick:()

punchdrunk

sgthighway wrote: »

Do you you have to live near one of the locations of the Coast Guard?

You train to be a Paramedic and train to be a Rearcrew. AFAIK the Coast Guard Paramedics do their training in the same class as HSE Paramedics and do their clinical placement the same as a HSE Candidate.

I have got to know one of their Paramedics and he does say it is the best job in the world. Any Paramedic would get the same experience but 200 miles out over the Atlantic been lowered onto a Fishing Boat would be some buzz for some.

(I don't like flying and I get sea sick:()

they get to go home at night but must be within ~15 minutes of the airport

sedgley

paraletic wrote: »

i don't think the universities recruiting is a good idea, for example, lots of 18 year olds might think it sounds great being a paramedic, then do 4 years in college, only to realise at 22 that they made a mistake, and they don't like the job at all.

I agree that younger people should get some life experience before going into the job, I myself think there should be an age limit of around 23, but I don't think there should be obstacles in the way of a person studying a subject that they aspire to do.
In reality you could argue the same about any school leaver going to college, even doctors, nurses...

Hooch

sedgley wrote: »

Sorry for the big long rant guys but this is something that has me absolutely fuming :mad:.

You took on a course....I honesty cant see anyone having "promised" you a job. Funny enough an awful lot of private EMT course are still going on in this climate......

maglite wrote: »

EMT is a basic qualification, very basic. It is not suitable as a profession. If you look at it it is only about 4 weeks long.

For you to discribe an EMT qualification a very basic one is ignorant to the level of training you receive and the change that there is from responder to practitioner.....remember there are still HSE staff that never did the convertion course from EMT to Paramedic.....it was good enough then. It is deemed suitable as a profession.... there is still serving EMTs in the HSE.....AGS....IrCG.....Fire service......

paraletic wrote: »

EMT in ireland is a very good standard, but the practitioners licence doesn't mean phecc have to help you work on an ambulance, if you feel like a glorified first aider, that isn't pheccs fault.

PHECC are right to try and keep minimum standards high, or they might as well put first aiders on ambulances.

The above would be a point I agree with....dont blame PHECC or anyone else for that matter....you did the course.

Elessar wrote: »

But don't you have to be working with the NAS for 5 years before you can apply for the AP program?

Correct. 3 years after finishing probation.

Elessar wrote: »

This is the crux of the matter. Go to the UK and observe how the ambulance trusts have student paramedics with them every day of the week, some on working contract (via their university) and some on unpaid placements. None of them working fulltime for the NHS. Why couldn't this be done here?

Because this is Ireland.

/rant

Exactly.....a monoploy on the whole training issue.....in full and total breach of EU law........

punchdrunk wrote: »

have you though to try and Join CHC and become a paramedic in the Coast Guard?

not sure how you'd go about it but it's a great job

Pre entry into CHC now includes being a PHECC registered Practitioner at EMT level or above.....no up skilling of grades is given apart from regular training and the recent Paramedic upskilling adding LMAs etc. Last year CHC took on HSE Paramedics as winchmen.

touge_drift wrote: »

whats chc? and are the coast guard approved by phecc to use the 3rd edition cpg's?

Canadian Helicopter Corporation, they have the tender for Irish Coast Guard heli rescue in the state.

murf313

For you to discribe an EMT qualification a very basic one is ignorant to the level of training you receive and the change that there is from responder to practitioner.....remember there are still HSE staff that never did the convertion course from EMT to Paramedic.....it was good enough then. It is deemed suitable as a profession.... there is still serving EMTs in the HSE.....AGS....IrCG.....Fire service......

but the old emt course wasnt 4 weeks long. it was more on par with the current paramedic course except for the internship.
the lads on the old emt courses still had to go on placements and get there emergency call experiences.... if you have done the new emt course i doubt very much that you have done any emergency work, therefore i dont see how you should be able to upskill to paramedic.... the experience just isnt there