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Full rights for the LGBT community.

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    #302
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    junder wrote: »
    Gay marriage, a loyalist perspective

    https://audioboo.fm/boos/1656794-pupconf-julieacorr-s-impassioned-successful-motion-supporting-equal-marriage

    Good to see.


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    #303
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    junder wrote: »
    Gay marriage, a loyalist perspective

    https://audioboo.fm/boos/1656794-pupconf-julieacorr-s-impassioned-successful-motion-supporting-equal-marriage

    PUP have only two councilors; the overwhelming majority of those who call themselves Loyalist vote for either the DUP or TUV both of whom oppose gay marriage. Its good that PUP are coming out with the above as it will help trash their chances of cashing in on the flag protests.


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    #304
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    PUP have only two councilors; the overwhelming majority of those who call themselves Loyalist vote for either the DUP or TUV both of whom oppose gay marriage. Its good that PUP are coming out with the above as it will help trash their chances of cashing in on the flag protests.


    Why is the advancement of a socially progressive loyalist party something to be decried?


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    #305
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    PUP have only two councilors; the overwhelming majority of those who call themselves Loyalist vote for either the DUP or TUV both of whom oppose gay marriage. Its good that PUP are coming out with the above as it will help trash their chances of cashing in on the flag protests.

    You getting worried about the progressive unionist party, making gains perhaps a party that does not conform do your stereotypical ideal of unionism undermines your argument about unionism in general, the fact that loyalism can actually be forward thinking annoys you


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    #306
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    There's plenty of examples of male animals who pull a runner as soon as the female is impregnated.

    Occasionally, human males exhibit such behaviour.


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    #307
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    junder wrote: »
    You getting worried about the progressive unionist party, making gains perhaps a party that does not conform do your stereotypical ideal of unionism undermines your argument about unionism in general, the fact that loyalism can actually be forward thinking annoys you

    Actually I agree with Jamie Bryson on gay marriage.

    There are two socially liberal Unionist Parties- one has been around for a long time and they have masses more elected members than PUP so obviously there are "progressive Unionists".

    I would count PUP more as a fascist Party than a Unionist party per se.


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    #308
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Actually I agree with Jamie Bryson on gay marriage.

    ...........

    A regressive simplistic view, which does nothing for anyone.


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    #309
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Nodin wrote: »
    A regressive simplistic view, which does nothing for anyone.

    Your view and fair enough- a lot of Unionists would agree and a lot would disagree.

    Given how PUP refused to condemn the attacks on Alliance offices over them voting to have the flag over Belfast city hall flown on the same day as the mainland UK and the Alliance support gay marriage Im a little surprised that people would be so enthusiatic about its "progressiveness"- the SA was also very "progressive" on such matters.


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    #310
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Your view and fair enough- a lot of Unionists would agree and a lot would disagree.

    Given how PUP refused to condemn the attacks on Alliance offices over them voting to have the flag over Belfast city hall flown on the same day as the mainland UK and the Alliance support gay marriage Im a little surprised that people would be so enthusiatic about its "progressiveness"- the SA was also very "progressive" on such matters.


    It's a start, which should be encouraged.


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    #311
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,897 ✭✭✭Christy42


    philologos wrote: »
    Not at all, there are various journals that describe the differing roles that mothers have and the differing roles that fathers have.

    Men and women are different and act differently. I wouldn't have thought that was hugely problematic.

    It's absolutely nothing to do with gender stereotyping in the slightest. Take a look for Gender roles in child development, there is a lot of work done on it and much discussing how children find it difficult to grow up without a father.

    I know some women who act far manlier than me. Should they be banned from having children with manly men in case of having two father figures effectively? What exactly is the full role of the man in the house? Should I not be allowed kids if I don't fulfill all the requirements? I am useless at DIY and footy ain't my strong point either. People act differently, you may find more men have certain traits and more women have other traits but they are not completely inclusive nor are they completely exclusive of one gender.

    Do you have any studies of children growing up with two parents neither of which is the father? i.e. did they separate the issues of growing up in single parent household as compared to a household without a man about? What about taking into account financial stability and social standing? There are many variables in couples raising children. That the gender of the parents is the most important thing is laughable.


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    #312
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's a start, which should be encouraged.

    A start? The UDA back in the bad old days had an open transgender person as a spokesperson. Loyalism unlike Unionism has pretty much been "progressive" on such issues.

    Name me one out gay Republican volunteer?


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    #313
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    A start? The UDA back in the bad old days had an open tranny as a spokesperson. Loyalism unlike Unionism has pretty much been "progressive" on such issues.

    Name me one out gay Republican volunteer?

    Im sure there where a few


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    #314
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    A start? The UDA back in the bad old days had an open tranny as a spokesperson. Loyalism unlike Unionism has pretty much been "progressive" on such issues.

    Name me one out gay Republican volunteer?

    Is this now turning into a orange v green pissing contest? I'm pointing out that a loyalist party taking a socially progressive stance is a good thing for society in general. Given your less than developed views on the matter, you obviously have a problem with this.


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    #315
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    If you listen to the audio clip, the lady concerned speaks very well. To begin with I was slightly on the fence, my concern was that while I support equal rights for gay couples, i also support the right of people to object to homosexuality and I didn't want church's put into a position where they would be taken to court for refusing to marry a gay couple ( that saying I would have no issue with a church choosing to marry a gay couple) the case of the couple who ran a b&b I'm England who being Christian refuses to allow a gay couple to share a room, they where taken to court sued and as a result have lost their business which also happened to be their home. The gay couple demanded that thier rights be respected but at the same time refused to accept the rights of the couple who ran the b&b. however after listening to the lady speak she convinced me to support her argument


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    #316
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    junder wrote: »
    ...while I support equal rights for gay couples, i also support the right of people to object to homosexuality...
    I don't get that. It's like saying "I support equal rights for women, but I also support the right of people to object to women having rights". I don't understand how you can logically hold both views.


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    #317
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't get that. It's like saying "I support equal rights for women, but I also support the right of people to object to women having rights". I don't understand how you can logically hold both views.

    Im not one to defend Junder but what he said is extremely logical- you can support a position and still believe in the right of free discussion against that position; would you say its illogical to be say a Muslim and yet still believe in religious freedom for Christians and Buddhists?


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    #318
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Im not one to defend Junder but what he said is extremely logical- you can support a position and still believe in the right of free discussion against that position...
    Sure, but he cited the specific example of a B&B owner who wanted the right to discriminate against a gay couple. If the B&B owner simply wants the right to find homesexuality distasteful, fair enough; if she wants the right to actively discriminate against them, not so much.


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    #319
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't get that. It's like saying "I support equal rights for women, but I also support the right of people to object to women having rights". I don't understand how you can logically hold both views.

    I think in this case there is a difference, we are not talking about a large hotel chain but a small family run business. The owners of this business are practicing Christians, don't they have rights? Should'nt thier beliefs also be respected? Why was it so important that the gay couple have to stay in that particular b&b, why didn't they exercise thier right to just walk away. Would I have the right To a Muslim run b&b and demand non halal pork sausages while my girlfriend sits there wearing next to nothing? it's my right to eat what I want and her right to dress how she pleases, or should I be respectful of the religious beliefs of the Muslim hosts? When we talk about equality then it should be just that, an equal respect for society's differences


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    #320
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure, but he cited the specific example of a B&B owner who wanted the right to discriminate against a gay couple. If the B&B owner simply wants the right to find homesexuality distasteful, fair enough; if she wants the right to actively discriminate against them, not so much.

    Okay what is a B and B owner refuses to rent a room to a non-married hetrosexual couple on the grounds of opposition to pre-marital sex, do you think that that should be illegal?

    I dont think also you can talk about homosexual persons the same way that you can talk about black persons or English persons or whatever; you can talk about homosexual acts and people who are either addicted or pre-disposed to them. Comparing a B and B owner not wanting homosexual acts preformed on his property to a B and B owner refusing to rent to say Asians I believe is wrong.

    Also you have to understand that Muslims, Christians, Jews and Sikhs dont see homosexual acts as merely distasteful but actually deeply evil. The Roman Catholic Church for instance which is the largest Christian Church in Ireland sees homosexual acts as being equal to willful murder and the oppression of the poor.


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    #321
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure, but he cited the specific example of a B&B owner who wanted the right to discriminate against a gay couple. If the B&B owner simply wants the right to find homesexuality distasteful, fair enough; if she wants the right to actively discriminate against them, not so much.

    It could be easier all round if common sense was applied, I fully support gay rights but I can understand why a christian couple would not want a gay couple having sex in their home/business premises. Perhaps the gay community should be more accepting of people who do not want to supply them services? It's not a rare thing after all to just ignore people who don't want to do business with you, that's b&b's loss could have been a more forward thinking owners gain!


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    #322
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    junder wrote: »
    I think in this case there is a difference, we are not talking about a large hotel chain but a small family run business. The owners of this business are practicing Christians, don't they have rights? Should'nt thier beliefs also be respected?
    As the old adage goes, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose starts.
    Why was it so important that the gay couple have to stay in that particular b&b, why didn't they exercise thier right to just walk away.
    If it's the same case I'm thinking of, they had booked in advance and showed up late in the evening. It wasn't a question of leisurely picking one of several convenient guesthouses and then insisting on staying there.
    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Okay what is a B and B owner refuses to rent a room to a non-married hetrosexual couple on the grounds of opposition to pre-marital sex, do you think that that should be illegal?
    I think it's discriminatory. I don't know if it should be illegal, but if you're going to discriminate on the grounds of your own personal bigotry, I think you should make that clear well in advance to anyone who's booking.
    I dont think also you can talk about homosexual persons the same way that you can talk about black persons or English persons or whatever; you can talk about homosexual acts and people who are either addicted or pre-disposed to them.
    If you're going to start claiming that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, then we don't have the basis of an intelligent conversation.
    gallag wrote: »
    Perhaps the gay community should be more accepting of people who do not want to supply them services?
    Substitute "black" for "gay" and let me know how you get on.


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    #323
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    As the old adage goes, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose starts. If it's the same case I'm thinking of, they had booked in advance and showed up late in the evening. It wasn't a question of leisurely picking one of several convenient guesthouses and then insisting on staying there.

    I think it's discriminatory. I don't know if it should be illegal, but if you're going to discriminate on the grounds of your own personal bigotry, I think you should make that clear well in advance to anyone who's booking. If you're going to start claiming that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, then we don't have the basis of an intelligent conversation.

    Substitute "black" for "gay" and let me know how you get on.

    Would you discover the Christian, islamic jewish faith as bigoted then?


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    #324
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If it's the same case I'm thinking of, they had booked in advance and showed up late in the evening.

    If it's the one I'm thinking of, it was clearly stated on the website about the religious beliefs. I think the B&B should have had the right to refuse service. Of course, then the couple could go and tell everyone that they did - but nothing further


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    #325
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    junder wrote: »
    Would you discover the Christian, islamic jewish faith as bigoted then?
    Do they require their adherents to discriminate against homosexuals?
    bluewolf wrote: »
    If it's the one I'm thinking of, it was clearly stated on the website about the religious beliefs. I think the B&B should have had the right to refuse service. Of course, then the couple could go and tell everyone that they did - but nothing further
    Should a business have a right to discriminate based on skin colour?


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    #326
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Do they require their adherents to discriminate against homosexuals?

    Should a business have a right to discriminate based on skin colour?

    Do religious people believe God views skin colour in the same way as homesexuality? Bit of a ridiculous argument really.


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    #327
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Do they require their adherents to discriminate against homosexuals?

    Should a business have a right to discriminate based on skin colour?

    In effect they do


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    #328
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gallag wrote: »
    Do religious people believe God views skin colour in the same way as homesexuality? Bit of a ridiculous argument really.
    So if a religion required its adherents to discriminate against people of different races the same way it requires them to discriminate against people of different sexualities, the law should accomodate that?


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    #329
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    gallag wrote: »
    Do religious people believe God views skin colour in the same way as homesexuality? Bit of a ridiculous argument really.

    Some religious people did and probably still do. It was a feature of the arguments against interracial marriages in the 50s and 60s that the "intermingling of the races" was against God's plan.

    Does that mean people who maintain that belief should be allowed to discriminate on basis of skin colour?


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    #330
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I think it's discriminatory. I don't know if it should be illegal, but if you're going to discriminate on the grounds of your own personal bigotry, I think you should make that clear well in advance to anyone who's booking. If you're going to start claiming that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, then we don't have the basis of an intelligent conversation.

    Substitute "black" for "gay" and let me know how you get on.

    We are all bigots to a certain degree and I dont think all bigotry is necessarily bad; what is wrong about being bigoted against those who see child abuse and rape as acceptable for instance? Irish people- whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, Unionist, Nationalist or Republican are among the most bigoted people in Europe; your own bigotry towards "homophobes" could be taken as an example of that.

    Maybe you might have an argument is they were refusing a room to someone on the grounds that they were homosexual- however there is a massive difference between that and refusing a homosexual couple wanting a double bed.


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    #331
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    We are all bigots to a certain degree and I dont think all bigotry is necessarily bad; what is wrong about being bigoted against those who see child abuse and rape as acceptable for instance?
    I can't think of a kind way of describing that as a bullsh*t argument.


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