To do medicine or not to do?!

martindisc

Hi,

I have a conundrum and would really appricate any advice.

I'm a 4th year physics student. I had been considering doing GradMed after I graduate. Most likely in England (as its 1/4 the price as here). Was going to do gamsat exam in september. However, I have been offered a very good PhD position in my university. I initially was set on the medicine, but now have to re think it. My main issue is the quality of life. I think I would love to do it, and think I would suit it.

Can any docters or students fill me in on the life of a doctor? Is it really crazy hours or is that a myth. I want to work to live, not live to work.

Plus has anybody done the gradmed in england? Reccomend anywhere? St Georges looks good, don't know how hard it is to get in though.

Hope this is the right place for this!

Thanks,

Martin

imported_guy

martindisc wrote: »

Hi,

I have a conundrum and would really appricate any advice.

I'm a 4th year physics student. I had been considering doing GradMed after I graduate. Most likely in England (as its 1/4 the price as here). Was going to do gamsat exam in september. However, I have been offered a very good PhD position in my university. I initially was set on the medicine, but now have to re think it. My main issue is the quality of life. I think I would love to do it, and think I would suit it.

Can any doctors* or students fill me in on the life of a doctor? Is it really crazy hours or is that a myth. I want to work to live, not live to work.

Plus has anybody done the gradmed in england? Reccomend anywhere? St Georges looks good, don't know how hard it is to get in though.

Hope this is the right place for this!

Thanks,

Martin

*denotes spelling error in "Doctor"

well its not really a case of cheap vs expensive, you have to consider, over here you MIGHT be living at home for grad med (dont know where you are from so i cant tell), cost of living in UK tends to be higher than in ireland.

you are on a path to a PHD, would you leave it even though the prospects of becoming a doctor(consultant) are thin? or even a GP? it takes 4 years of medschool (or more), 1 year intern-ship, and anywhere from 10 to 20 years of training before you can even apply for consultant posts in ireland. (not trying to discourage you, its just something i would consider), you will be working long hours, unless EWTD comes into place, 48 hour+ shifts are the norm every 1 in X weekends, and so are 24 hour+ shifts in 1 in X days.

other things to consider are, is the PHD on a subject you really like?, why exactly you want to do medicine? personally as physicists i think newton and einstein have done more for humanity than say john hunter or mason andrews, as a physics guy (who hopefully is strong in math) you might have other options, such as actuary/chartered accountancy/engineering etc.... have you looked into those?

locum-motion

imported_guy wrote: »

*denotes spelling error in "Doctor"

If you're going to start pulling others up on a single spelling mistake, then perhaps you should have a look at your own grammar etc. For example, does your keyboard actually have a Caps shift key?

martindisc

Thanks for response,

As regards expense, I wouldn't be living at home if did the GradMed here. From Galway and would be doing the GradMed in dublin or limerick. So would have similiar living expenses as would if doing it in England. As far as I know its 12k a year here compared to 3k a year in England. Would be able to get loan for 3k + living expenses a year (probably could not work part time with intensity of course) but 12k + living expenses would be way out of my range.

As regards the physics PhD it is in an area im interested in, but to be honest most guys that do phds in physics dont get a lot out of it for the amount of work they put in. Plus im not just doing it to say I have a PhD like some lads do, dont care about that to be honest.

As why I want to do medicine, I cant exactly say. Just something about the challanges of it. Dont want to glorify it but like the idea of helping people, but more so I think I would like the intensity and pressure of it. I doubt you would ever be bored!

As regards accountancy etc., you cant just go into that after doing physics. Would have to do that degree I would imagine.

Martin

Jessibelle

Hi Martindisc,
I'm a hopeful student one day so may not be the best to advise you on this, but I know for myself personally, no matter what else I have done, (and this would be several postgrad qualifications and volenteer works), that nothing has ever superceded my desire to do medicine, despite my best efforts to
I've attended work placements and shadowed doctors on day shifts (and the bulk of an on call weekend), to make sure it wasn't the glamour of the 'idea' of medicine that I was enamoured with, and have spoken long and hard to medical staff and students, and many on boards here about the work, hours and conditions just to be 100% certain. Best advice I can give you is maybe to do the same, see if you can shadow someone for a few days, talk to as many medical professionals as you know both here and in real life, and when you have both sides of the story, it'll make making the decision that much easier I hope! Best of luck

imported_guy

martindisc wrote: »

Thanks for response,

As regards expense, I wouldn't be living at home if did the GradMed here. From Galway and would be doing the GradMed in dublin or limerick. So would have similiar living expenses as would if doing it in England. As far as I know its 12k a year here compared to 3k a year in England. Would be able to get loan for 3k + living expenses a year (probably could not work part time with intensity of course) but 12k + living expenses would be way out of my range.

i heard NUIG was planing on bringing in a Grad med course http://www.nuigalway.ie/careers/students/faq/medicine.html

The Graduate Entry programme for Medicine was introduced in 2007. By 2011 there will be 240 places available. It is available in University College Cork, University College Dublin, The Royal College of Surgeons, University of Limerick (and NUI, Galway from 2010). Again, applications through the CAO by February 1st with more details on their help sheet here (pdf).

martindisc wrote: »

As regards the physics PhD it is in an area im interested in, but to be honest most guys that do phds in physics dont get a lot out of it for the amount of work they put in. Plus im not just doing it to say I have a PhD like some lads do, dont care about that to be honest.

martindisc wrote: »

As why I want to do medicine, I cant exactly say. Just something about the challanges of it. Dont want to glorify it but like the idea of helping people, but more so I think I would like the intensity and pressure of it. I doubt you would ever be bored!

sounds to me like you want to do medicine for the same reason as you suggested "most guys" want physics PHDs? (i might be missing something but thats what it sounded like in my head, like you're looking for a sense of achievement, dont think there is anything wrong with that, i dont think there is anything wrong with people choosing a profession JUST for the money either but there are easier ways of making money than becoming a doctor, opposition back bencher for example :rolleyes:, and i think being a MP is just as prestigious as being a doctor )

martindisc wrote: »

As regards accountancy etc., you cant just go into that after doing physics. Would have to do that degree I would imagine.

Martin

well, you would be learning by "doing" rather than from lectures etc, you will be sort of like an apprentice while you do your exams (ACCA or the like)


edit

Jessibelle wrote: »

Hi Martindisc,
I'm a hopeful student one day so may not be the best to advise you on this, but I know for myself personally, no matter what else I have done, (and this would be several postgrad qualifications and volenteer works), that nothing has ever superceded my desire to do medicine, despite my best efforts to
I've attended work placements and shadowed doctors on day shifts (and the bulk of an on call weekend), to make sure it wasn't the glamour of the 'idea' of medicine that I was enamoured with, and have spoken long and hard to medical staff and students, and many on boards here about the work, hours and conditions just to be 100% certain. Best advice I can give you is maybe to do the same, see if you can shadow someone for a few days, talk to as many medical professionals as you know both here and in real life, and when you have both sides of the story, it'll make making the decision that much easier I hope! Best of luck

jessibelle has given pretty good advice, you should shadow a doctor or a GP for a while and see if it depicts accurately of your expectations from a degree in medicine, rather than your experience from watching House M.D. or grey's anatomy

martindisc

Hi Jessibelle,

I'm actually contacting places to volunter or help out in any way. Brother of charity, a couple of hospitals, a hospice and some other places. Wouldnt commit myself to something blindly. Trying to do as much research as possible on it. Seems to be pretty hard to get in though if you don't know somebody working there. Over the summer after my exams, my plan is to try and get shadowing a doctor. Any advice on that?

Thanks.

Martin.


Imported guy,

As regards my motifs, you have it wrong.

Martin.

imported_guy

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055799819 this thread comes to mind as well it has alot of helpful information which you might find useful, sorry if i didnt understand your motives properly, good luck with what ever you choose

as bruce lee said emotional content, not anger

Jessibelle

martindisc wrote: »

Hi Jessibelle,

I'm actually contacting places to volunter or help out in any way. Brother of charity, a couple of hospitals, a hospice and some other places. Wouldnt commit myself to something blindly. Trying to do as much research as possible on it. Seems to be pretty hard to get in though if you don't know somebody working there. Over the summer after my exams, my plan is to try and get shadowing a doctor. Any advice on that?

I found the Mater and St James hospitals great for volunteer work recently in Dublin, and I know the University hospital in Galway do a similar program (not so sure about Merlin Park, they did when I was up there, but that might have changed since ). It does take awhile to process, you need to go for an interview, have a Garda vetting and so on, but if all goes smoothly, you can be on wards within 6 weeks of applying. For children hospitals, the process is a little more complicated as you tend to go in via an organization, and have to undergo training in basic child protection as well as Garda vetting. they tend only to recruit in the Autumn and Spring though so you may be late for that.
As for the shadowing of Docs, I started with my own local GP and asked if she minded if I sat in with her for minor cases during the day. I did this with a few local GPs, and always emphasized discretion and that I wanted only to see minor cases because I was considering med (It can be an issue of confidentiality for some in small areas if they'll let you sit in, so if you let them know you really don't want to find out about the neighbors secrets, it can allay that somewhat), and from there I got recommendations for Drs i hospitals, also annoyed a few I met through the volunteer work, and friends of mine doing med now to let me follow them around. Basically I was the most polite pest they couldn't shake until I got what I want
Hope that helps, and sure drop me a PM if there's anything else I can answer?

Narkius Maximus

imported_guy wrote: »

sounds to me like you want to do medicine for the same reason as you suggested "most guys" want physics PHDs? (i might be missing something but thats what it sounded like in my head, like you're looking for a sense of achievement, dont think there is anything wrong with that, i dont think there is anything wrong with people choosing a profession JUST for the money either but there are easier ways of making money than becoming a doctor, opposition back bencher for example :rolleyes:, and i think being a MP is just as prestigious as being a doctor )

Assumptions can be very dangerous in Medicine imported guy. TBH, everyone that wants to study medicine has the same naive answer, I don't think I've ever had an original answer when I ask students why they want to do medicine. I don't think there is an original answer. Honesty, diligence, a hard core desire curiosity and an ability to assimilate and learn everything you see,read and hear, I think are the important factors for a medical student.

Personally, I love the challenges each day presents me, I love that I may be part of the team are the only people that can help sort something out. I think the sense of achievement, the sense of duty, the sense of overcoming arduous difficulties gets me through.

I love what I do, It makes me feel great, I may be wrecked for a lot of the week/month whatever but all it takes is a nice emergency to give you that adrenaline rush to sort you out and get going again.

It is tough, Martindisc, see if you want to do it, volunteer, I think it's harder getting to shadow Docs in hospital these days, I haven't seen any in a while.

Good Luck.

just-joe

martindisc wrote: »

As regards accountancy etc., you cant just go into that after doing physics. Would have to do that degree I would imagine.

Martin

You actually can go straight into alot of accountancy/actuary etc josbs straight from a degree like yours. I (a maths student), got a job offer from Deloitte, so did a mate who does astrophysics, another is going to be a trader...

Basically no related degree necessary, just good marks, and a flowery CV!

Obviously, there isn't a whole lot of jobs at the moment, but if you get out there, you could be earning a whole lot quicker than you would if you became a doc. Not sure how big a deal it is for ya, but if it is, then there is money out there to be earned!

mcdermla

Jessibelle wrote: »

Hi Martindisc,
I'm a hopeful student one day so may not be the best to advise you on this, but I know for myself personally, no matter what else I have done, (and this would be several postgrad qualifications and volenteer works), that nothing has ever superceded my desire to do medicine, despite my best efforts to
I've attended work placements and shadowed doctors on day shifts (and the bulk of an on call weekend), to make sure it wasn't the glamour of the 'idea' of medicine that I was enamoured with, and have spoken long and hard to medical staff and students, and many on boards here about the work, hours and conditions just to be 100% certain. Best advice I can give you is maybe to do the same, see if you can shadow someone for a few days, talk to as many medical professionals as you know both here and in real life, and when you have both sides of the story, it'll make making the decision that much easier I hope! Best of luck

So why aren't you doing medicine now?? So rare to find people doing it for the right reasons!

mcdermla

Honestly I think that if you really wanted to be a doctor you wouldn't be considering the PhD at all. If you really want to be a doctor then nothing else can compete with it.
I understand that money is a massive issue, but most medical students find themselves in debt when they qualify, so it's surmountable. I know some loans can have toxic amounts of interest piled on top, would you consider taking a year or two to just work and get some money together? Best not to be preoccupied with the age factor, you're gonna be working into your 60s after all.
If you can't say why you want to be a doctor then maybe it isn't something you should pursue. The most acceptable responses are generally that you're interested in human pathology, have a connection with people and, cliche of the century, want to save people's lives.
I'm not trying to say your desire lacks substance, just maybe that you need to really think about what attracts you to it, and why it could be better than a PhD.

Jessibelle

mcdermla wrote: »

So why aren't you doing medicine now?? So rare to find people doing it for the right reasons!

Honestly? at the moment it's a question of academics and finding a place willing to take me. Once they do though, watch out world*





* and remind me of this enthusiasm as I come off a 48 hour shift and have to return in two hours :P

Narkius Maximus

mcdermla wrote: »

So why aren't you doing medicine now?? So rare to find people doing it for the right reasons!

In your vast, all encompassing experience, what are the right reasons?

Vorsprung

And what are the wrong reasons?!

PhysiologyRocks

mcdermla wrote: »

Honestly I think that if you really wanted to be a doctor you wouldn't be considering the PhD at all.

I don't think this is true. Weighing up options and making the most suitable decision is surely the most sensible way to go about things?

mcdermla

Narkius Maximus wrote: »

In your vast, all encompassing experience, what are the right reasons?

I don't feel too compelled to respond to sarcasm right now

Narkius Maximus

mcdermla wrote: »

I don't feel too compelled to respond to sarcasm right now

Yeouch! Better get used to it-it's a bitter cynical medical world we live in. You'll find this out when you qualify.

Good luck.

lonestargirl

OP I actually posted this reply to a similar question a few months ago but I think it is relevant to your situation.

I did the Gamsat and got a place in RCSI for 2008 and turned it down. There were a variety of things that influenced my decisions and I'll try to explain them.

I did a Experimental Physics degree and a Medical Physics MSc. I started working as a research physicist (clinical jobs are hard to get with no experience). I enjoyed the work but I couldn't see myself staying there forever. Meanwhile my boyfriend (now husband) had gone to do medicine after a physiology BSc+MSc and was loving it. I applied for a place on the trainee physicist scheme, interviwed in Jan 08 but didn't get it. I was pi**ed and in a fit of pique sent in a CAO application and signed up for Gamsat (the day before the closing date).

I sent off for the Acer test papers and didn't really do much study until they arrived. In the meantime I interviewed for, and got, a clinical job as a dosimetrist (planning radiation treatments). One month into the job and I realised that a) I loved it and b) I was very good at it. I figured I should still give Gamsat my best shot as I signed up and paid for it. I had studied physics and chemistry during undergrad and anatomy and physiology during my postgrad so none of the subjects were completely 'new' to me. I studied for 3-4 weekends in the run up to the exam and gave it my best shot. When the results came in my strong scientific background showed as I scored an overall 63: 68(S1); 50(S2); 67(S3). When they rang me from RCSI and told me I was being offered a place in round 0 the women wouldn't accept my refusal, she said I should sleep on it for a day or two before calling her back!

Do I regret not doing medicine? No, but I'm glad I went through with the Gamsat as I don't have those 'what if' thoughts.My life is very different now from what it would have been if I had chosen medicine. My husband graduated from medicine and we decided that, for us, the USA was our best option. He is in a surgery residency program here in Houston and I left my (permanent ) job with the HSE to move here in September. I see him working 80 hrs week in week out for about $10 an hour and I don't think I could ever be that committed to any profession.

While I love dosimetry I realise that in order to progress I probably ultimately need to be a physicist with responsibility for dosimetry as there is no grade above senior dosimetrist in Ireland. At the moment I have been shortlisted for application to a 5-year funded PhD program at a hospital that is a world leader in cancer care. While I expect to work hard in the future I'm glad I've picked a career that allows me time for the other things I love as well as having a contribution in patient care.

mcdermla

Narkius Maximus wrote: »

Yeouch! Better get used to it-it's a bitter cynical medical world we live in. You'll find this out when you qualify.

Good luck.

Sorry, I didn't mean any disrespect. I hate healthcare in this country

mcdermla

lonestargirl wrote: »

OP I actually posted this reply to a similar question a few months ago but I think it is relevant to your situation.

I did the Gamsat and got a place in RCSI for 2008 and turned it down. There were a variety of things that influenced my decisions and I'll try to explain them.

I did a Experimental Physics degree and a Medical Physics MSc. I started working as a research physicist (clinical jobs are hard to get with no experience). I enjoyed the work but I couldn't see myself staying there forever. Meanwhile my boyfriend (now husband) had gone to do medicine after a physiology BSc+MSc and was loving it. I applied for a place on the trainee physicist scheme, interviwed in Jan 08 but didn't get it. I was pi**ed and in a fit of pique sent in a CAO application and signed up for Gamsat (the day before the closing date).

I sent off for the Acer test papers and didn't really do much study until they arrived. In the meantime I interviewed for, and got, a clinical job as a dosimetrist (planning radiation treatments). One month into the job and I realised that a) I loved it and b) I was very good at it. I figured I should still give Gamsat my best shot as I signed up and paid for it. I had studied physics and chemistry during undergrad and anatomy and physiology during my postgrad so none of the subjects were completely 'new' to me. I studied for 3-4 weekends in the run up to the exam and gave it my best shot. When the results came in my strong scientific background showed as I scored an overall 63: 68(S1); 50(S2); 67(S3). When they rang me from RCSI and told me I was being offered a place in round 0 the women wouldn't accept my refusal, she said I should sleep on it for a day or two before calling her back!

Do I regret not doing medicine? No, but I'm glad I went through with the Gamsat as I don't have those 'what if' thoughts.My life is very different now from what it would have been if I had chosen medicine. My husband graduated from medicine and we decided that, for us, the USA was our best option. He is in a surgery residency program here in Houston and I left my (permanent ) job with the HSE to move here in September. I see him working 80 hrs week in week out for about $10 an hour and I don't think I could ever be that committed to any profession.

While I love dosimetry I realise that in order to progress I probably ultimately need to be a physicist with responsibility for dosimetry as there is no grade above senior dosimetrist in Ireland. At the moment I have been shortlisted for application to a 5-year funded PhD program at a hospital that is a world leader in cancer care. While I expect to work hard in the future I'm glad I've picked a career that allows me time for the other things I love as well as having a contribution in patient care.

You definitely did the right thing, dosimetry sounds very interesting and your future prospects sound absolutely amazing! Best of luck I hope you get it

donaghs

Vorsprung wrote: »

And what are the wrong reasons?!

Here's some:
(1) Chasing courses with high points. Then discovering you hate the course, or the job. Or that you hate having to work with people/patients.

(2) Money. Thinking Medicine is the best way to cash in. Then being pissed off that its not actually (e.g. someone who started their own business earns much more than you).

(3) Prestige/Social Status. Thinking that certain professions like doctors, barristers, etc make you a superior person.

In terms of the right reasons, having an interest in health sciences is a good starting point.

imported_guy

donaghs wrote: »

Here's some:
(1) Chasing courses with high points. Then discovering you hate the course, or the job. Or that you hate having to work with people/patients.

(2) Money. Thinking Medicine is the best way to cash in. Then being pissed off that its not actually (e.g. someone who started their own business earns much more than you).

(3) Prestige/Social Status. Thinking that certain professions like doctors, barristers, etc make you a superior person.

In terms of the right reasons, having an interest in health sciences is a good starting point.

everyone has a different way of thinking, you stated the "wrong" reasons, but for some people they might be perfectly right reasons

issue on points...
arnold scwarzenegger won the olympia 6 times before he retired, but then he came out of retirement and won it for a 7th time, most other bodybuilders said he just wanted to rub it in their face... but hey, live and let live, you shouldnt be judging someone for rubbing it in your face, they clearly worked harder than you, if they dont like the course thats a different story, its tough titties for them.

we have like thousands of consultants making more alot more than alot of what the top bankers were making before they were getting their salaries capped that and theres only about 5 of those guys compared to thousands of consultants, so its pretty easy to say "there are easier ways of making money" than actully making it, running and owning your own business isnt an easy task, well being a doctor isnt an easy task either but there is less of a risk-factor involved (i.e. you putting your personal money into your business and going bankrupt if it fails). if money was easy to make we wouldnt have poverty.

prestige and social status, well, its always been an anthropological view that some scholars/professionals will always be respected more than others.

sam34

"thousands of consultants"??

at last count (2006) there were just over 2000 consultant posts and just under 1800 of them were filled , so to say thousands is a bit of hyperbole

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/55_MedicalConsultantsContract.pdf

jmtormey

hi,
i am a doctor. went to ucd. i qualified from med school 7 years ago.
honestly, i think if i had my time again i wouldnt do medicine again. especially if you choose life over work.

why?
1. training in ireland and the uk seems endless. depending on what specialty you are considering i suppose.
i am doing Gi surgery.
so i did 6 yrs med school,
then 1 yr internship,
2 yrs basic surgical training (SHO)
then 2 yrs doing lab based research to get an MD degree as well (which is essential to get onto the higher surgical training schemes and become a consultant)
then 1 yr as a registrar.
then i got onto the higher surgical training scheme (SpR) for general surgery.
the spr scheme takes 5 yrs.
when i finish this, i will then do a fellowship abroad in a surgical specialty.

so... total time training = 18 years. then i can become a consultant. it is mental.
the hours are long and the pay is ****e.
i have several friends who spent 3 yrs in college and getting paid a lot more than me if you consider the hourly rate.

other crap things about being a dr.
- pay again. it is an issue.
after tax, my montlhy salary is 3200 euros. i am a dr, i have an MD, i have trained for 10 years. i work 70 hrs a week. and my pay is crap. porters who have no college education, no real responsibility and a 9 to 5 type job get paid more than me in the hospital. just amazing.

- endless pressure to do research, write papers, present research at conferences. all this is done in your spare time.
- you have to move every year to a new hospital when not a consultant. generally in a differnt city. doable if you are young and single. not easy with a family.

yes, i love my job. but i honestly think if i was allowed to do it again i would either a) train in the states, where it is faster, or b) not be a dr.

mcdermla

donaghs wrote: »

Here's some:
(1) Chasing courses with high points. Then discovering you hate the course, or the job. Or that you hate having to work with people/patients.

(2) Money. Thinking Medicine is the best way to cash in. Then being pissed off that its not actually (e.g. someone who started their own business earns much more than you).

(3) Prestige/Social Status. Thinking that certain professions like doctors, barristers, etc make you a superior person.

In terms of the right reasons, having an interest in health sciences is a good starting point.

EXACTLY! I went to school with people who were particularly good at maths so they picked all the maths subjects they knew they'd do well in and then worked hard at the other ones, and got high points. Rather than pick a course they might just go and excel in, they said they'd do medicine because they could get the points. I also know a guy who wanted to do it so he'd get a lexus before he was thirty. But he decided against it at last minute to do dentistry cos he heard they earn money quicker, how offensive is that!
The prestige thing really bothers me, but some doctors are still like that. However I have met some friendly consultants.

imported_guy wrote: »

everyone has a different way of thinking, you stated the "wrong" reasons, but for some people they might be perfectly right reasons

issue on points...
arnold scwarzenegger won the olympia 6 times before he retired, but then he came out of retirement and won it for a 7th time, most other bodybuilders said he just wanted to rub it in their face... but hey, live and let live, you shouldnt be judging someone for rubbing it in your face, they clearly worked harder than you, if they dont like the course thats a different story, its tough titties for them.

we have like thousands of consultants making more alot more than alot of what the top bankers were making before they were getting their salaries capped that and theres only about 5 of those guys compared to thousands of consultants, so its pretty easy to say "there are easier ways of making money" than actully making it, running and owning your own business isnt an easy task, well being a doctor isnt an easy task either but there is less of a risk-factor involved (i.e. you putting your personal money into your business and going bankrupt if it fails). if money was easy to make we wouldnt have poverty.

prestige and social status, well, its always been an anthropological view that some scholars/professionals will always be respected more than others.

What are you basing this on?? How do you know how much consultants make?? I don't think a lot of actual doctors would know that.

mcdermla

jmtormey wrote: »

hi,
i am a doctor. went to ucd. i qualified from med school 7 years ago.
honestly, i think if i had my time again i wouldnt do medicine again. especially if you choose life over work.

why?
1. training in ireland and the uk seems endless. depending on what specialty you are considering i suppose.
i am doing Gi surgery.
so i did 6 yrs med school,
then 1 yr internship,
2 yrs basic surgical training (SHO)
then 2 yrs doing lab based research to get an MD degree as well (which is essential to get onto the higher surgical training schemes and become a consultant)
then 1 yr as a registrar.
then i got onto the higher surgical training scheme (SpR) for general surgery.
the spr scheme takes 5 yrs.
when i finish this, i will then do a fellowship abroad in a surgical specialty.

so... total time training = 18 years. then i can become a consultant. it is mental.
the hours are long and the pay is ****e.
i have several friends who spent 3 yrs in college and getting paid a lot more than me if you consider the hourly rate.

other crap things about being a dr.
- pay again. it is an issue.
after tax, my montlhy salary is 3200 euros. i am a dr, i have an MD, i have trained for 10 years. i work 70 hrs a week. and my pay is crap. porters who have no college education, no real responsibility and a 9 to 5 type job get paid more than me in the hospital. just amazing.

- endless pressure to do research, write papers, present research at conferences. all this is done in your spare time.
- you have to move every year to a new hospital when not a consultant. generally in a differnt city. doable if you are young and single. not easy with a family.

yes, i love my job. but i honestly think if i was allowed to do it again i would either a) train in the states, where it is faster, or b) not be a dr.

Good post! I hate porters too! Surgery seems to be particularly tough to get through so fair play to you. I've seen some surgeons being roared at by more senior surgeons, doesn't seem fair. It must be hard to have to move all the time, but that will stop eventually. It's very hard to go from Ireland to the States, the USMLE is apparently very difficult, but it's worth a try I suppose. Best of luck to you I hope you get to settle somewhere soon.

imported_guy

mcdermla wrote: »

EXACTLY! I went to school with people who were particularly good at maths so they picked all the maths subjects they knew they'd do well in and then worked hard at the other ones, and got high points. Rather than pick a course they might just go and excel in, they said they'd do medicine because they could get the points. I also know a guy who wanted to do it so he'd get a lexus before he was thirty. But he decided against it at last minute to do dentistry cos he heard they earn money quicker, how offensive is that!
The prestige thing really bothers me, but some doctors are still like that. However I have met some friendly consultants.



What are you basing this on?? How do you know how much consultants make?? I don't think a lot of actual doctors would know that.

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/55_MedicalConsultantsContract.pdf

basic consultant pay (excluding private practice) = around 180,000-230,000 (rounding off numbers here) depending on the ammount of private practice one does some of them do earn multiples of this basic pay

sam34

imported_guy wrote: »

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/55_MedicalConsultantsContract.pdf

basic consultant pay (excluding private practice) = around 180,000-230,000 (rounding off numbers here) depending on the ammount of private practice one does some of them do earn multiples of this basic pay

ffs, they'd want to be doing crazy amounts of private practice to earn "multiples" of the basic salary

seriously

ease off on the hyperbole

jmtormey

"basic consultant pay (excluding private practice) = around 180,000-230,000 (rounding off numbers here) depending on the ammount of private practice one does some of them do earn multiples of this basic pay"

seriously. they used to get paid well. these days are over for consultants working in the public sector. the amt of pricate work you do is limited.
and even if they did get paid that much, they deserve it when you consider how well trained they are, what they do on a daily basis, and the length of time it took thenm to get to that stage.
it is the same type of salary (well acually probablly less) than a senior lawyer, banker etc.
do u think drs should be paid less than a senior lawyer or banker? or even politician for that matter? surely they desrve a similar salary?
anyway, not really releveant to whether this fellow should become a dr or not.

if u want a good pay with good hours, interesting job and healthcare realted i would go for radiography, dentistry or physio.

jmtormey

mcdermla wrote: »

Good post! I hate porters too! Surgery seems to be particularly tough to get through so fair play to you. I've seen some surgeons being roared at by more senior surgeons, doesn't seem fair. It must be hard to have to move all the time, but that will stop eventually. It's very hard to go from Ireland to the States, the USMLE is apparently very difficult, but it's worth a try I suppose. Best of luck to you I hope you get to settle somewhere soon.

thanks for the support!

just diasagree on one point, the USMLES are a breeze, not tough at all. they are easier than our college final exams. and we all have to do them anyway for fellowship training in the states...

mcdermla

imported_guy wrote: »

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/55_MedicalConsultantsContract.pdf

basic consultant pay (excluding private practice) = around 180,000-230,000 (rounding off numbers here) depending on the ammount of private practice one does some of them do earn multiples of this basic pay

I doubt they earn 'multiples' of that basic pay; a lot of NCHDs in my hospital got a 40% pay cut last year, so there's hardly money to make consultants that wealthy. Even if there was, what you're saying would make no sense!
I'm not a doctor but I'm not stupid either

mcdermla

jmtormey wrote: »

thanks for the support!

just diasagree on one point, the USMLES are a breeze, not tough at all. they are easier than our college final exams. and we all have to do them anyway for fellowship training in the states...

Really?? Sorry I'm just going on hearsay, what US med students think of it, etc. It takes a while though doesn't it?? And work there and then come home for two years and then go back?

imported_guy

jmtormey wrote: »

thanks for the support!

just diasagree on one point, the USMLES are a breeze, not tough at all. they are easier than our college final exams. and we all have to do them anyway for fellowship training in the states...

USMLE might be a breeze for you, but as an IMG who needs visa sponsorship, its highly unlikely the american programs will pick you over an american graduate with similar/less score, alot of programs dont even consider IMGs you get filtered out if you dont click the box which says "green card holder", residencies such as derma/opthamology, or ENT/neuro/plastic/ortho surgries are pretty impossible to get unless you pull serious strings or your uncle is the program director, and alot of irish people will be looking for a H1B visa which needs the Step 3 as well, which is pretty tough unless you have practiced before (as an SHO/intern etc) because most AMGs do them after their first year of residency, and you have to have it done before you start.

imported_guy

mcdermla wrote: »

Really?? Sorry I'm just going on hearsay, what US med students think of it, etc. It takes a while though doesn't it?? And work there and then come home for two years and then go back?

you cant practice in america with irish training and just a "fellowship", you arent considered "board certified" unless you do a residency there (extra 3-7 years depending what you want to do) you only have to come back if you go on a J-1 visa, you can try and obtain the H1-B(not many programs sponsor it) before going and stay there for as long as you want and apply for a green card after some time

jmtormey

imported_guy wrote: »

USMLE might be a breeze for you, but as an IMG who needs visa sponsorship, its highly unlikely an american programs will pick you over an american graduate with similar/less score, alot of programs dont even consider IMGs you get filtered out if you dont click the box which says "green card holder", residencies such as derma/opthamology, or ENT/neuro/plastic/ortho surgries are pretty impossible to get unless you pull serious strings or your uncle is the program director.

disagree. it is competitive, but no more competitive than in ireland. and probably less so.

i have many friends who trained in ireland and have done their residencies in the us (without us residency) in highly competitive specialties such as opthalmol, plastics, derm, gen surg etc.

as long as you are good, have high scores and have impressed the people in your chosen hospital during your summer internship i think there is a good chance that you'll get what you want (and u are realistic about how good you are, and that you get along well with the directors and other docs in the program...
if you are only average, you may not get on a highly competitive prgram in the us. but then, you most likely wouldnt get onto it here in ireland either...

imported_guy

jmtormey wrote: »

disagree. it is competitive, but no more competitive than in ireland. and probably less so.

i have many friends who trained in ireland and have done their residencies in the us (without us residency) in highly competitive specialties such as opthalmol, plastics, derm, gen surg etc.

as long as you are good, have high scores and have impressed the people in your chosen hospital during your summer internship i think there is a good chance that you'll get what you want (and u are realistic about how good you are, and that you get along well with the directors and other docs in the program...
if you are only average, you may not get on a highly competitive prgram in the us. but then, you most likely wouldnt get onto it here in ireland either...

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

take a look, ONLY ONE IMG got accepted last year for a derma residency, and i dont think more than 10 in the last decade would have been accepted.

jmtormey

imported_guy wrote: »

you cant practice in america with irish training and just a "fellowship", you arent considered "board certified" unless you do a residency there (extra 3-7 years depending what you want to do) you only have to come back if you go on a J-1 visa, you can try and obtain the H1-B(not many programs sponsor it) before going and stay there for as long as you want and apply for a green card after some time

sorry but this aint true.
you can do what i am in the process of doing:

irish med school + USMLE exams
irish residency program
us fellowship

you are then eligible to become board certified in the us, and work there as an attending for as long as you like and they want to employ you.

and then you can come home to ireland if you like of course as well and not do the us board exit exams
i have several friends and collegaues who have done it.

imported_guy

jmtormey wrote: »

sorry but this aint true.
you can do what i am in the process of doing:

irish med school + USMLE exams
irish residency program
us fellowship

you are then eligible to become board certified in the us, and work there as an attending for as long as you like and they want to employ you.

and then you can come home to ireland if you like of course as well and not do the us board exit exams
i have several friends and collegaues who have done it.

your source?

www.internationaldoc.com

While you can do your basic medical training in your home country and join a US fellowship, you will not be able then to practice as a Cardiologist, as you cannot be 'board certified' without completing a residency first. The point to remember is that if you just want to spend 4 years training in the USA, you can just go over for a fellowship - while if you want to practice in the USA you have to go over for the whole lot.

im 100% sure you're wrong, unless you provide sources to back up what you said, you cant practice in america unless you do a residency there (not a fellowship, AN ACTUAL residency), you cant be "board certified" without a residency in any country except america, if you want to practice there, they only recoginse some membership exams like MRCP, and they let you start from PGY-2 (i.e they let you skip intern year), but thats about it you still have to do year 2-till what ever the final year is.

lonestargirl

jmtormey wrote: »

sorry but this aint true.
you can do what i am in the process of doing:

irish med school + USMLE exams
irish residency program
us fellowship

you are then eligible to become board certified in the us, and work there as an attending for as long as you like and they want to employ you.

and then you can come home to ireland if you like of course as well and not do the us board exit exams
i have several friends and collegaues who have done it.

Sorry jmtormey, you can do a fellowship in the US without doing a residency but you CANNOT be board certified with doing residency. They are very strict about it, my husband's residency program wanted to move him up a year on the basis that he had done an intern year in Ireland already and they were told no.

jmtormey

imported_guy wrote: »

your source?

www.internationaldoc.com

dont have any offical guidelines for you to read. sorry, you seem to like them.

its people i personally know who do this every year.
its what I will do.
are you even a dr cos surely you know that probably 30% of the younger consultants in ireland have spent time as attendings in various US hospitals and are also board certified.

but as i said before, it is totally irreleveant to the original post and i dont really want to discuss it on this guys thread any longer.

what do you think?

do you think he should stay in physics or become a doctor?

polkadotIShot!

Hey, I'm kind of in a similar boat to you.. I'm doing a law degree at the moment and heading into my second year, the degree is three years long as opposed to the usual four. Anyway, I am seriously considering taking up medicine at the end and in the mean time I'm badgering every dean of admissions officer I can get a hold of to get as much info as possible! lol In my quest for a suitable medical degree the best I have encountered (so far) is Cambridge across the pond. They have a grad entry course which is four years long and is also a hell of a lot more affordable than the courses on offer here.. I would never be able to afford the fees in this country! The only downside is that they work you 48weeks out of the year for four years which I'm guessing would be quite physically and mentally taxing..! The competition is very stiff (i think 23/155 got it last year..) plus admissions is also based on having a first class honour degree/higher 2:1 minimum, good BMAT/GAMSAT results along with having done relevant work experience and showing maturity and life experience during the interview.
..I just read back over it and now I'm not sure if I even want to do it anymore! lol *joke* but seriously, if you want it bad enough you WILL get it. I've already put my name down for volunteer work in a children's hospice for the summer and I'm trying to round up a few people to head out to Tunisia with me over the halloween break to help out in an AIDS orphanage. Stuff like that will illustrate your passion and committment to medicine and show your a capable person when it comes to a possible interview.
I hope that helps, and now I was hoping someone could maybe help me.. As far as the GAMSAT goes, I haven't a clue where to begin! If anyone knows any good prep books, websites or has notes they don't need anymore, I would really appreciate it if you let me know!
Thanks

lonestargirl

jmtormey wrote: »

its people i personally know who do this every year.
its what I will do.

It won't work - good luck trying

jmtormey wrote: »

do you think he should stay in physics or become a doctor?

I think he should explore ways to use his physics degree in an allied health field. He gets the fulfillment of working in healthcare and the benefits of a 9-5 type job.