Before considering medicine as a career READ THIS!

DocDaneka · 15-01-2010 12:23am #1

Just to point out a wee few things that people should know before starting a career in medicine in Ireland...............

First as an intern/ sho / reg you will be spending about 1 night in 5-8 in the hospital and
the next night sleeping it off totally exhausted. This means anything up to 25% of your nights you will not be around at all for fiance/wife/dog/kids/whatever.This is much worse if you want to be a surgeon.

You will be doing this at least 10 years - if you start at 28 you will finnish your training at 38 ie 38 years old and still working 36-80 hour straight shifts up to 100 hours per week and beyond.

After you complete SPR training (after 10 years) you are pretty much unemployable. Now if you have avoided it before you will be forced to emigrate, maybe 20% manage to come back to consultancy post. Most stay gone

You will be forced to spend many months and even years away from wherever you live staffing rundown country hospitals. This means either leaving your families or uprouting them every 3 months as you desperately search for jobs with no contract longer than 6 months or so.

Your starting salary as an intern will be around 33000 ( thats after 6% chop).The vast majority of the hours you work will not be paid. I work around 20 hours per week for which i am not paid and I work in one of the better hospitals.You will have to pay thousands in fee's for "training" courses, bull**** exams, medical councils fees, malpractice insurance etc (after tax) This means you will struggle desperately to pay any debts you have incurred as part of your training.The increase as you get experience is terrible - hospital porters make more per hour overtime than SPRs.

You will spend most of your time doing non medical jobs that cany nurses refuse to do - drawing up medications, taking blood, putting on ecg leads. You will spend a lot of time catering to your consultants private patients whims. If you offend a consultant - career over. Expect a lot of bullying.

Medical Admin hate you. Every so often they come up with a new plan to screw you. Your union is a joke, you will be constantly exploited. Our hospital pretends we all work 48 hours a week and are working time directive compliant. In reality people are still working eighty hour straight shifts without a break.Lunch is an overpriced sandwich eaten while doing dictations in clinic.

Your friends will be alienated by your constant non attendence at social events. Pretty soon your only social contacts are run down doctors and all you have the energy to do is bitch and moan.

You will spend you home hours studying for exams which have failure rates of 80% and cost nearly 600 euro a go. If your not doing that, you will be forced into spending your time doing micky mouse research to try and make yourself employable.

And on top of all that - when you qualify the numbers of medical students will have risen from 450 to 600 ! Each year the number of jobs grows less. The competion will be fierce, your lives wont be worth living.Gp might be a way out for a few but the college have an iron grip on the number of places and there are already hundreds who miss out.

And lastly - its getting worse. We had our 7 years of plenty and ended up with a run down dying health service. Now our years of famine have started and it gets worse everyday. By the time you graduate medicine will be a McDonaldesque career - low salary long hours no training, if you dont want it fine - there are hundreds more medical students waiting. If medicine is your vocation and you dont need sleep or food or family thats fine, by all means chose this career but otherwise watch out. And dont say you weren't warned..........

suspectpackage · 15-01-2010 1:33am

All important stuff to consider and the main reasons why I intend on emigrating immediately after I qualify.

mikemac · 15-01-2010 1:38am

How did that system develop to have doctors work such crazy marathon shifts?

When the difference between a correct proscription and an overdose can be as close as a few miligrams of the incorrect drug, I certainly want a well rested doctor checking me.

Air traffic controllers have control over life and death but they have regulated breaks.
But doctors don't have this??

Jessibelle · 15-01-2010 1:44am

Wow DocDanke, it really sounds like you (like so many medics I suppose) have had it really rough! Do you mind me asking, (I'm a hopeful wannabe student myself), did you have any idea what you were getting into pre medicine, or is it all hard won experience? The reason I ask is I've heard mixed reviews from various docs, some very similar to yours, some radically different (exceptionally positive) and I'm wonderig if it's just a matter of personal experience, or placement or some other factor..?

DocDaneka · 15-01-2010 1:57am

Its not so much the prescribing thats the problem. In Irish hospitals doctors are forced to give the first dose of every iv medication. This is totally insane and not practised anywhere else in the world. This means you have to make up the dose of the medication yourself. You recieve no training whatsoever and my first introduction to it was after being up for 30 hours without sleep. I know at least one patient who has been killed under this system - stat dose of gent given by exhausted untrained doc and many cases of resp depression and even an arrest. Still nothing changes, same old story.

As a pre-med i thought things would be good. I mean in 2000 a new contract meant doctors actually got paid for their work and things were looking up.The working time directive was passed in 2005 and I thought that would change everything. Since then however things have gotten much worse. Pen pushers in the HSE tore up the new contact literally overnight. The working time directive was buried until some genius decided it would be a great way to save cash. So now we get the wonderous hypocrisy of the HSE pretending we dont work the hours so they dont have to pay us. I suppose there are some good jobs somewhere. I mean statistically there must at least one. Good luck finding it though.

ORLY? · 15-01-2010 3:29am

DocDaneka wrote: »

Its not so much the prescribing thats the problem. In Irish hospitals doctors are forced to give the first dose of every iv medication. This is totally insane and not practised anywhere else in the world. This means you have to make up the dose of the medication yourself. You recieve no training whatsoever and my first introduction to it was after being up for 30 hours without sleep. I know at least one patient who has been killed under this system - stat dose of gent given by exhausted untrained doc and many cases of resp depression and even an arrest. Still nothing changes, same old story.

As a pre-med i thought things would be good. I mean in 2000 a new contract meant doctors actually got paid for their work and things were looking up.The working time directive was passed in 2005 and I thought that would change everything. Since then however things have gotten much worse. Pen pushers in the HSE tore up the new contact literally overnight. The working time directive was buried until some genius decided it would be a great way to save cash. So now we get the wonderous hypocrisy of the HSE pretending we dont work the hours so they dont have to pay us. I suppose there are some good jobs somewhere. I mean statistically there must at least one. Good luck finding it though.

The tone of your posts in completely defeatist and negative. There is so much dramatisation and hyperbole - "I suppose there are some good jobs somewhere. I mean statistically there must at least one. Good luck finding it though", that I can't help but feel that it may not be the most reasoned of logical advice.

If you hate it as much as you appear to - leave. Don't reply that it's not that simple, it is. Either that or get pro-active in changing things. Honestly, anyone working 20 hours for free deserves to be made work 20 hours for free. Moaning on the internet is usually the least effective way to accomplish anything.

eagle_&_bear · 15-01-2010 3:57am

I wouldn't want this thread to turn into a personal tyrade on each other as I think its a side of a potential career that none of us know (I mean pre gamsat people and those looking to get into medicine) so I'm all for hearing the good, the bad and the down-right ugly about the career.

I think DocDaneka's posts are as valid and maybe there is plenty enough reason for the member to be down trodden. And I think given the nature of the work, its not as simple as just leaving.

Maybe shift the post from the personal attack onto a more seasoned debate

*just food for thought is all*

Konata · 15-01-2010 4:11am

While your attitude seems extremely negative (any positives at all?), what you're saying is so relevant. IMO, this kinda stuff needs to be told to the hundreds of LC students who are burdening themselves every year with the pressure of getting medicine. There is quite a perception amongst secondary school and college students that medicine is the 'dream career'. Anyone capable of getting top points is assumed to be aiming for medicine - I myself was nearly forced into studying medicine solely because I was able to, not because I really wanted to.

What we don't ever hear about is the downside to training and becoming a doctor. Someone needs to inform students of the reality and if they still want to do it then at least they're fully aware of the situation.

Narkius Maximus · 15-01-2010 11:56am

Every career has its ups and its downs. One could be working plenty of unpaid hours in accountancy, office work, whatever. There will also be people who suffer in their careers, and particularly in medicine because it is bloody tough, there is a lot of sh*@e that goes with the territory. Hard days, harder nights, and perhaps we should be educating our students and juniors to this effect. But for every unsatisfied person, there's alway someone who loves it. If you don't want it every day, if you don't have that passion and desire, or if you have lost it then a medical career is a bewildering place.

I love my job, not everyday, but I do love what I do. I enjoy being in a job that allows me to do something different everyday.

I'll sign off by giving a warning to med students and prospective medics-It is tough, it is unfair, it can get really rough, but if you want it, and there is nothing else in the world you could think of doing, then go ahead and get stuck in but don't go in naively, it can crush.

ORLY? · 15-01-2010 12:12pm

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

I wouldn't want this thread to turn into a personal tyrade on each other as I think its a side of a potential career that none of us know (I mean pre gamsat people and those looking to get into medicine) so I'm all for hearing the good, the bad and the down-right ugly about the career.

I think DocDaneka's posts are as valid and maybe there is plenty enough reason for the member to be down trodden. And I think given the nature of the work, its not as simple as just leaving.

Maybe shift the post from the personal attack onto a more seasoned debate

*just food for thought is all*

I assume you're regarding my post as a personal attack on the OP. I can see how you might have thought that but that's not what it is. It's sincere, but blunt advice.

Leaving any career, even medicine, is relatively simple if the reasons are strong enough, doing something you hate will kill you earlier and lead to an unhappy time while you are alive. Simply complaining achieves nothing, only taking some form of action will accomplish that.

nzexile1 · 15-01-2010 12:40pm

I was sent this by email. I can sadly vouch for everything DocDaneka says and more.
I was sent to a countryside hospital for six months as part of my SHO scheme. It was the worst time of my life. I was on call 1 in 3 and had to run the whole hospital including A & E by myself at night with no support whatsoever. The Registrars were all foreign, they didnt give a damn about the patients. I was told never to call them- even if the patients died. Bullying was rife - even the nurses had a go at you. I honestly considered killing myself every morning instead of coming into work. One morning I just got up and walked away from it all. Got a job in NZ and things ae great here. My consultant when she found out that I had quit was livid. She screamed at me for an hour. She swore I would never work in Ireland again. She called all the other consultants I would have worked for on the scheme and told them to make sure I could never get another job. She even phoned up the company I used and demanded to know what hospital I was going to.

I love my job here and love being a doctor. However I'm sure if I had stayed my life would have been over, one way or another. I would encourage daneka and anyone else to get out while you still can. I'm never going back to Ireland and that miserable mess of a system we created there.

imported_guy · 15-01-2010 6:25pm

this is a very biased view, you only spoke of how it is in ireland, (still speak for yourself), prospects for doctors are alot better in other countries such as OZ/NZ/USA(residency is pretty bad, but gets better afterwards, atleast you dont spend 10+ years in training and it should stay that way unless obama screws everyone over with his hardcore socialism)

anotherlostie · 15-01-2010 6:51pm

That post should make sobering reading for people thinking of switching to medicine from other careers because of the current downturn - it's not all Grey's Anatomy out there.

However, I would take issue with working unpaid overtime, because I know lots of people in different fields who do this - accounting and law being two. I would have more of an issue with EWTD being ignored when it suits, and applied when hospital management deems it appropriate.

I think medicine is a terrible work environment until you start to climb the greasy pole, and the hardship endured in early years is what hardens many at the top - "I had to put up with it, so I'm going to make sure this lot do as well".

Junior Doctors could definitely do with their own version of Liam Doran to represent their interests!

DocDaneka · 15-01-2010 11:41pm

Just in from work. I'm not talking about the odd few hours here and there of unpaid OT I'm talking 80-90 hours per month. Did 6 hours today for which Im not getting paid. As for doing something about it, better men then me have failed. Not to say I didnt try when i had some energy once upon a time but these days.... One person acting alone will change nothing - believe me,I've seen plenty try. Dont forget we have essentially no representation, no central body to help coordinate us. We are grossly handicapped by a combination of a lame-duck union, a nepotistic hierarchial structure and being to damn sick and tired. Our last union meeting 3 people turned up ( out of 200 + doctors). The rest were too busy working for free. We had to abandon the meeting and scuttle back to do our work.

As for Nzexile, thats a common story i'm afraid. A classmate of mine hit the bottle during that type of abuse and he hasnt crawled out of it yet. Im not sure he will. As for climbing the greasy pole, thats long gone. Medicine is a pyramid and there is no room at the top. My choices for the future are emigrate now or emigrate later. As for speaking for myself, well thats all I can do. I havent worked abroad , I dont know what its like, i will soon find out. Some of my collegues have found a niche for themselves where they are happy, I know at least one radiologist who loves her job so it does happen but its a rariety. Moral is pretty desperate, everyone is looking for an escape plan. Im sorry if i sound defeatist but im feel pretty soundly defeated. I hate to think of all the students pouring all their time and energy, struggling to get crazy points, working their asses of in college, getting into debt - all so they can be exploited by a management that doesnt give a damn.

PS
I didnt even mention such things as not being allowed to call in sick,working with a broken arm, not being allowed take your holidays, being rostered for call in the middle of your "holidays", fetching your consultants laundry and many other fun things we get to do.

stainluss · 15-01-2010 11:51pm

DocDaneka wrote: »

Just in from work. I'm not talking about the odd few hours here and there of unpaid OT I'm talking 80-90 hours per month. Did 6 hours today for which Im not getting paid. As for doing something about it, better men then me have failed. Not to say I didnt try when i had some energy once upon a time but these days.... One person acting alone will change nothing - believe me,I've seen plenty try. Dont forget we have essentially no representation, no central body to help coordinate us. We are grossly handicapped by a combination of a lame-duck union, a nepotistic hierarchial structure and being to damn sick and tired. Our last union meeting 3 people turned up ( out of 200 + doctors). The rest were too busy working for free. We had to abandon the meeting and scuttle back to do our work.

As for Nzexile, thats a common story i'm afraid. A classmate of mine hit the bottle during that type of abuse and he hasnt crawled out of it yet. Im not sure he will. As for climbing the greasy pole, thats long gone. Medicine is a pyramid and there is no room at the top. My choices for the future are emigrate now or emigrate later. As for speaking for myself, well thats all I can do. I havent worked abroad , I dont know what its like, i will soon find out. Some of my collegues have found a niche for themselves where they are happy, I know at least one radiologist who loves her job so it does happen but its a rariety. Moral is pretty desperate, everyone is looking for an escape plan. Im sorry if i sound defeatist but im feel pretty soundly defeated. I hate to think of all the students pouring all their time and energy, struggling to get crazy points, working their asses of in college, getting into debt - all so they can be exploited by a management that doesnt give a damn.

PS
I didnt even mention such things as not being allowed to call in sick,working with a broken arm, not being allowed take your holidays, being rostered for call in the middle of your "holidays", fetching your consultants laundry and many other fun things we get to do.

I was just trying to think today would i sign up for the HPAT,
you have made me rethink..

its sad how its so politically involved, it really takes away from the actual goal - helping sick people :mad:

I had already heard the HSE were ****e, though.

I wonder what its like abroad?

eth0_ · 16-01-2010 12:03am

anotherlostie wrote: »

However, I would take issue with working unpaid overtime, because I know lots of people in different fields who do this - accounting and law being two.

Two differences here: 1> It's "easy" to climb the ladder in accountancy and law (compared to medicine). 2> You aren't forced to stay awake for 48 hours or more, and you're not going to be responsible for a death if you f*ck up.

piby · 16-01-2010 12:04am

Sounds pretty bad tbh and I've heard that all too many times and you're right the LC/GAMSAT don't seem to be prepared for the reality of a medical carrer. I say this as an aspiring GAMSATer and I admit I still probably don't grasp just how difficult it is. The problem in some ways lies with our selection process. It's just LC plus HPAT for 18-year-olds and 2.1 degree plus GAMSAT for grads. So while they can assess appitude to some degree they don't really assess you fully. It's one area where I think the UK is so far ahead in that regard. You have grades and personal statement and evidence of volunteer work and the interview to say the least. It's still not perfect but we could learn a dam sight from them! I think a good idea would be that scheme be made mandatory where all aspiring medicine students shadowed an intern not just for a few hours or a day but for a full week like for like so wherever and whenever the intern works the shadower goes, even if it means doing a 36 hour shift through the night etc etc. You might open a few eyes then!!

But to end on a positive note I do know quite a few docs who really love what they do

amjon · 16-01-2010 11:08am

DocDaneka wrote: »

Just to point out a wee few things that people should know before starting a career in medicine in Ireland...............

First as an intern/ sho / reg you will be spending about 1 night in 5-8 in the hospital and
the next night sleeping it off totally exhausted. This means anything up to 25% of your nights you will not be around at all for fiance/wife/dog/kids/whatever.This is much worse if you want to be a surgeon.

You will be doing this at least 10 years - if you start at 28 you will finnish your training at 38 ie 38 years old and still working 36-80 hour straight shifts up to 100 hours per week and beyond.

After you complete SPR training (after 10 years) you are pretty much unemployable. Now if you have avoided it before you will be forced to emigrate, maybe 20% manage to come back to consultancy post. Most stay gone

You will be forced to spend many months and even years away from wherever you live staffing rundown country hospitals. This means either leaving your families or uprouting them every 3 months as you desperately search for jobs with no contract longer than 6 months or so.

Your starting salary as an intern will be around 33000 ( thats after 6% chop).The vast majority of the hours you work will not be paid. I work around 20 hours per week for which i am not paid and I work in one of the better hospitals.You will have to pay thousands in fee's for "training" courses, bull**** exams, medical councils fees, malpractice insurance etc (after tax) This means you will struggle desperately to pay any debts you have incurred as part of your training.The increase as you get experience is terrible - hospital porters make more per hour overtime than SPRs.

You will spend most of your time doing non medical jobs that cany nurses refuse to do - drawing up medications, taking blood, putting on ecg leads. You will spend a lot of time catering to your consultants private patients whims. If you offend a consultant - career over. Expect a lot of bullying.

Medical Admin hate you. Every so often they come up with a new plan to screw you. Your union is a joke, you will be constantly exploited. Our hospital pretends we all work 48 hours a week and are working time directive compliant. In reality people are still working eighty hour straight shifts without a break.Lunch is an overpriced sandwich eaten while doing dictations in clinic.

Your friends will be alienated by your constant non attendence at social events. Pretty soon your only social contacts are run down doctors and all you have the energy to do is bitch and moan.

You will spend you home hours studying for exams which have failure rates of 80% and cost nearly 600 euro a go. If your not doing that, you will be forced into spending your time doing micky mouse research to try and make yourself employable.

And on top of all that - when you qualify the numbers of medical students will have risen from 450 to 600 ! Each year the number of jobs grows less. The competion will be fierce, your lives wont be worth living.Gp might be a way out for a few but the college have an iron grip on the number of places and there are already hundreds who miss out.

And lastly - its getting worse. We had our 7 years of plenty and ended up with a run down dying health service. Now our years of famine have started and it gets worse everyday. By the time you graduate medicine will be a McDonaldesque career - low salary long hours no training, if you dont want it fine - there are hundreds more medical students waiting. If medicine is your vocation and you dont need sleep or food or family thats fine, by all means chose this career but otherwise watch out. And dont say you weren't warned..........

Sounds like a right old laugh!

Piste · 17-01-2010 10:53pm

I really wish I hadn't read this thread =/

Now don't get me wrong, it was probably a very good thing that I read this thread. But I'm on the brink of failing my first exams of first year and what you've described seems more like a dark fiery pit rather than a light at the end of the tunnel

Can I ask why you work the unpain hours? If you're rostered to work until a certain time can you not go home then? Is there any way to claim back the hours worked?

jenga-jen · 18-01-2010 12:27am

+1 to what Piste said, I could've done without reading this while studying for the GAMSAT :eek:

Threads/comments like this from med students/doctors always make me wonder why they don't visit college open days and warn the wee hopefuls hanging around the medicine course stands about the perils of being a doctor.

Don't get me wrong, if this in fact an accurate portrayal of the life of a medicine graduate, then I'm all for hearing about it and making an informed decision. This thread has already led to a lot of soul searching and thinking on my part.

However, when I read/hear the likes of this I always wonder if it is truly the seemingly horrific career as has been painted here and the posters in question would in fact warn anyone contemplating this route to do ANYTHING ELSE in terms of their career?

If this isn't the case, what purpose does this thread serve, in that it offers no redeeming features, no light at the end of a tunnel?

How would you have felt if you'd been told the above, in this particular tone, before coming in? Grateful for the advice or terrified beyond belief that the one thing you really wanted to do was being torn to pieces in front of you and held up as the career equivalent of a rod to beat yourself with for the next 15+ years?

me2gud4u · 18-01-2010 4:22am

I'm glad that this was posted.

As a result, it has really made me realise that if I'm after a better quality of life, I need to sit the USMLES next year so I can get out of this system as soon as possible.

Thanks DocDaneka and I wish you the best in whatever direction you decide to take.

sam34 · 18-01-2010 8:15am

Piste wrote: »

Can I ask why you work the unpain hours? If you're rostered to work until a certain time can you not go home then? Is there any way to claim back the hours worked?

you cant go home if: you give a damn about your patients, your colleagues (who are equally over-burdened) or your career.

claim back hours worked? nope, not a chance. most hospital admin depts refuse to acknowledge there is such a thing as unrostered overtime

A Neurotic · 18-01-2010 9:02am

sam34 wrote: »

claim back hours worked? nope, not a chance. most hospital admin depts refuse to acknowledge there is such a thing as unrostered overtime

Isn't that horribly illegal?

sam34 · 18-01-2010 9:14am

A Neurotic wrote: »

Isn't that horribly illegal?

probably.

who's gonna be the person to challenge it and ruin their career though?

Narkius Maximus · 18-01-2010 11:09am

sam34 wrote: »

probably.

who's gonna be the person to challenge it and ruin their career though?

This happened several years ago as in when the lamented 'golden years' began i.e. NCHDS had enough, threatened to walk out and an agreement was made.

Are we spineless? Are we going to sit around and be dictated to? 50,000 less admissons this year, becoming ewtd compliant, reduction in OPD appointments, patients dying on the wards because we'll all have to go home post call. HSE administration are walking into [EMAIL="s*@t"]s*@t[/EMAIL] storm. The hospital system is going to collapse, it has to.

If we don't do something now we are resigning the future students to a souless career in medicine!

We are all intelligent , passionate people but as a group we have our heads in the sand. We are supposed to be leaders, we could be a huge lobby group for healthcare reform.

RobFowl · 18-01-2010 4:41pm

Narkius Maximus wrote: »

This happened several years ago as in when the lamented 'golden years' began i.e. NCHDS had enough, threatened to walk out and an agreement was made.

Are we spineless? Are we going to sit around and be dictated to? 50,000 less admissons this year, becoming ewtd compliant, reduction in OPD appointments, patients dying on the wards because we'll all have to go home post call. HSE administration are walking into s*@t storm. The hospital system is going to collapse, it has to.

If we don't do something now we are resigning the future students to a souless career in medicine!

We are all intelligent , passionate people but as a group we have our heads in the sand. We are supposed to be leaders, we could be a huge lobby group for healthcare reform.

It's easy to say we should do something but in reality if you do your career will suffer. Those at the top especially in hospital medicine have huge control over your career and future job prospects.
I've seen peolpe do amazing work to get reforms and improvements yet seen their own career stiffled significantly.
Also Just look at what happen before. NCHD's stood up were lead well and got improvements in the form of overtime pay and the training grant. Now a stroke of the pen and they are all gone.
I'm a GP and once you get past the considerable barriers to entering training then the problems are less but still present.
It's a rewarding career but bloody hard and stressful.
FTR every bad experience mentioned above I've seen happen and indeed have experienced most personally.

Here's a few...
A certain Professor made me carry his coat on wardrounds.
I called in sick once and had the consultant scream at me down the phone for an hour.
I finished a 6 month job when another Doctor called in sick and was told I had to work the night (unpaid) when I should have been moving 90 miles to my next job.
I once did an uninterrupted 84 hour shift with only 4 hours sleep.
I took a weeks holiday once only to be told I'd have to "work up" the hours first, complained to the union rep who said I could complain and was right to but wouldn't work locally again.

Narkius Maximus · 18-01-2010 5:33pm

I acknowledge that the above events have happened to some degree over the past number of years. I have heard the stories, though I have never experienced them myself. Indeed, of my class, I can only recall one major incident involving a colleague friends. Maybe we were lucky! Or maybe the people we worked with/for were just decent. Or maybe that breed of consultant is dying out. Bullying in the workforce is not tolerated outside the medical world with substantial claims awarded in Irish courts so why should it be tolerated within?

We as NCHDs now need to 'box smart', support each other, and if bullying is proven, react against it together. We work in teams to support each other in our day jobs, why not extend that to everything that occurs to us in our hospital/career?

tech77 · 19-01-2010 5:36am

nzexile1 wrote: »

I was sent this by email. I can sadly vouch for everything DocDaneka says and more.
I was sent to a countryside hospital for six months as part of my SHO scheme. It was the worst time of my life. I was on call 1 in 3 and had to run the whole hospital including A & E by myself at night with no support whatsoever. The Registrars were all foreign, they didnt give a damn about the patients. I was told never to call them- even if the patients died. Bullying was rife - even the nurses had a go at you. I honestly considered killing myself every morning instead of coming into work. One morning I just got up and walked away from it all. Got a job in NZ and things ae great here. My consultant when she found out that I had quit was livid. She screamed at me for an hour. She swore I would never work in Ireland again. She called all the other consultants I would have worked for on the scheme and told them to make sure I could never get another job. She even phoned up the company I used and demanded to know what hospital I was going to.

I love my job here and love being a doctor. However I'm sure if I had stayed my life would have been over, one way or another. I would encourage daneka and anyone else to get out while you still can. I'm never going back to Ireland and that miserable mess of a system we created there.

This intrigues me.

Is there really a huge difference in training/proper supervision between Ireland and NZ.

Because I have to admit- what you say about support not being there does ring true (from my perspective at least).

And to some degree, the cynicism/"ah fcuk it, it's fine" attitude as well.
The hours are a secondary thing.
Glad things worked out for you anyway.

Can you give a few examples of these differences?

tech77 · 19-01-2010 5:43am

DocDaneka wrote: »

fetching your consultants laundry and many other fun things we get to do.

That's a new one.
WTF

But yeah, even though i've never seen anyone paint it so bleakly, there are definitely problems.

sam34 · 19-01-2010 8:08am

as an intern, i was told by the consultant my most important function was to ensure that the consultant didnt leave his glasses at a patients bedside.

one day, when i was busy attending a cardiac arrest, he left his glasses behind him

guess who had to retrace his steps and find them? (but not before getting cursed at and told i was incompetent- despite the fact that the patient was successfully resuscitated)

mardybumbum · 19-01-2010 2:12pm

me2gud4u wrote: »

I'm glad that this was posted.

As a result, it has really made me realise that if I'm after a better quality of life, I need to sit the USMLES next year so I can get out of this system as soon as possible.

Damn straight.
USA hear my roar.

Jessibelle · 19-01-2010 8:10pm

sam34 wrote: »

as an intern, i was told by the consultant my most important function was to ensure that the consultant didnt leave his glasses at a patients bedside.

one day, when i was busy attending a cardiac arrest, he left his glasses behind him

guess who had to retrace his steps and find them? (but not before getting cursed at and told i was incompetent- despite the fact that the patient was successfully resuscitated)

Words cannot express :eek:
One of my cousin's often tells the story of how he was slammed by a consultant for missing rounds for a period of time. His 'excuse' that he was in a serious situation which resulted in the permenant loss of the use of his legs was only deemed to be valid the day he returned in his wheelchair, whereby the consultant begrudingly conceded he was possibly telling the truth as opposed to trying to scam out of rounds ..:mad:

sam34 · 19-01-2010 8:15pm

Jessibelle wrote: »

Words cannot express

oh, and i forgot to mention that when i returned his glasses to him he condescendingly patted me on the head and said he was sure if i applied myself i would do better every other day :rolleyes:

Jessibelle · 19-01-2010 9:15pm

sam34 wrote: »

oh, and i forgot to mention that when i returned his glasses to him he condescendingly patted me on the head and said he was sure if i applied myself i would do better every other day :rolleyes:

Was it at this point he started singing soprano?
Despite reading all these stories and knowig a few more myself, I still want to do medicine, but now I'm worrying if I'd be able to bite my tongue for the good of my career, if someone treated me like that, I'd be fighting hard not to tell them where to get off! Does anyone know what happened if someone stood up to the consultants? Did it lead to poor marking/bad reviews/worse??

RobFowl · 20-01-2010 9:59am

Jessibelle wrote: »

Was it at this point he started singing soprano?
Despite reading all these stories and knowig a few more myself, I still want to do medicine, but now I'm worrying if I'd be able to bite my tongue for the good of my career, if someone treated me like that, I'd be fighting hard not to tell them where to get off! Does anyone know what happened if someone stood up to the consultants? Did it lead to poor marking/bad reviews/worse??

No or bad referances and if they were particularly obnoxious a phone around to make sure you don't get any decent job's.

Narkius Maximus · 20-01-2010 11:12am

sam34 wrote: »

oh, and i forgot to mention that when i returned his glasses to him he condescendingly patted me on the head and said he was sure if i applied myself i would do better every other day :rolleyes:

Suppose it's better than a pat on the ass!!!:D

I've seen that happen!

DrIndy · 20-01-2010 12:20pm

There was a consultant in a hospital I worked in who was doing a "grand round" with 10 other doctors, nurse specialists, pharmacists who stopped in the middle of the ward, sniffed hard 3 times and said to one of the female SHOs "Are you menstruating?"

**** you not. This was within the last 4 years as well.

Narkius Maximus · 20-01-2010 1:43pm

That wasn't in a southside dublin hospital by any chance? One consultant there who was notorious-he was rudely eccentric. The stuff he used to do....... He is my role model for being a dirty old man some day!

Jessibelle · 20-01-2010 2:57pm

HOW do they get away with this? If it was any other industry they'd be hauled in front of the courts!!

anotherlostie · 20-01-2010 10:24pm

And just in case anyone is thinking it, it's not just the men who know how to behave appallingly! I've heard some stories in relation to one of the Dublin maternity hospitals.

But surely if a consultant is known to be a complete pr*ck, then would others in similar positions take anything they say as kosher?

tracker-man · 20-01-2010 11:47pm

I'm in Leaving Cert year, have been aiming for medicine... Even recently before reading this, I was thinking to myself, why not go for a job that will pay higher sooner, only have to work 9-5 and not have to put up with the not so nice sides of becoming a doctor, and reaching the top of the ladder in it. I didn't realise the "not so nice" bits of becoming a doctor were quite as sh**ty as mentioned here. Why should I go for this career if what you say is a true representation of it, And if it is likely I will experience the same??

On the other hand I would love to be a doctor, I am really suited to the work.

I gotta weigh up the pros and cons, medicine is something I would love, but I am capabable of achieving a good leaving cert, I want a quality of life.

So now I've a decision to make.... medicine, or not... C-A-Oh God.

sam34 · 21-01-2010 12:11am

DrIndy wrote: »

There was a consultant in a hospital I worked in who was doing a "grand round" with 10 other doctors, nurse specialists, pharmacists who stopped in the middle of the ward, sniffed hard 3 times and said to one of the female SHOs "Are you menstruating?"

**** you not. This was within the last 4 years as well.

FFS thats beyond ridiculous :eek:

2Scoops · 21-01-2010 2:33am

tracker-man wrote: »

Even recently before reading this, I was thinking to myself, why not go for a job that will pay higher sooner, only have to work 9-5

What is this magical job of which you speak?? :pac:

Piste · 21-01-2010 3:03am

Jessibelle wrote: »

Was it at this point he started singing soprano?
Despite reading all these stories and knowig a few more myself, I still want to do medicine, but now I'm worrying if I'd be able to bite my tongue for the good of my career, if someone treated me like that, I'd be fighting hard not to tell them where to get off! Does anyone know what happened if someone stood up to the consultants? Did it lead to poor marking/bad reviews/worse??

Yeah I'm the same, I'm ok at holding my tongue and being obedient, but under a lot of stress with little sleep (I do very badly on little sleep, like I get properly physically sick and shaky if I don't sleep enough) I might just crack and tell the consultant where to go.

Has anyone thought of documenting the bullying by consultants? Like sneaking in microphones for evidence? Would your career really be ruined if you took a case of bullying against your consultant with ample evidence?

nesf · 21-01-2010 8:46am

2Scoops wrote: »

What is this magical job of which you speak?? :pac:

Backbencher Opposition politician. Less hours than 9-5 and your chance of holding onto the job increases for every mistake made by the other guys. Recession proofed so long as you can manage to stay out of Government long enough.

Vorsprung · 21-01-2010 10:32am

Piste wrote: »

Has anyone thought of documenting the bullying by consultants? Like sneaking in microphones for evidence? Would your career really be ruined if you took a case of bullying against your consultant with ample evidence?

Wouldn't be ruined, you'd just have to move abroad!

tracker-man · 22-01-2010 10:31pm

2Scoops wrote: »

What is this magical job of which you speak?? :pac:

There are some niche areas where a nice job like this can be found if you look for it! Lucky for me I am doing my leaving cert at the moment and have the opportunity to plan my future career

2Scoops · 23-01-2010 1:57am

tracker-man wrote: »

There are some niche areas where a nice job like this can be found if you look for it! Lucky for me I am doing my leaving cert at the moment and have the opportunity to plan my future career

Seriously, like what??

jumpguy · 23-01-2010 6:20pm

I'm hoping to do medicine myself, but my God...this thread is making me think. I'm not disappointed, I'm ****ing angry. Minister of Health...HSE...the entire system is broken and cruel. I think everyone knows somebody who nearly died in a hospital due to some incompetance (not trying to rile doctors who do a fine job in Irish hospitals here, after 24 hours without sleep, I can't even do basic addition, never mind diagnose a patient's illness.)

This is incredible. Someone must do something soon...this is like something just waiting for a brave whistle-blower. Consultants...how an Earth can one human, well educated, well paid do that to another colleague?

Surely the solution to this is to get your medicine degree, do an internship in an Irish hospital, and then get the **** out of here as fast as you can? Why isn't every doctor doing this?

Not only is doctor's and other hospital workers quality of life at stake here, but also patient safety and comfort. I compell anyone in a position to do something about this to do it. Please, this is insane. Doctors should be among the most rewarded people in society, not ****ing fat-cat politicians, or high-up pen pushers.

24-01-2010 1:35am

jumpguy wrote: »

I'm hoping to do medicine myself, but my God...this thread is making me think. I'm not disappointed, I'm ****ing angry. Minister of Health...HSE...the entire system is broken and cruel. I think everyone knows somebody who nearly died in a hospital due to some incompetance (not trying to rile doctors who do a fine job in Irish hospitals here, after 24 hours without sleep, I can't even do basic addition, never mind diagnose a patient's illness.)

This is incredible. Someone must do something soon...this is like something just waiting for a brave whistle-blower. Consultants...how an Earth can one human, well educated, well paid do that to another colleague?

Surely the solution to this is to get your medicine degree, do an internship in an Irish hospital, and then get the **** out of here as fast as you can? Why isn't every doctor doing this?

Not only is doctor's and other hospital workers quality of life at stake here, but also patient safety and comfort. I compell anyone in a position to do something about this to do it. Please, this is insane. Doctors should be among the most rewarded people in society, not ****ing fat-cat politicians, or high-up pen pushers.

Yeah, I've been following this thread and the Two Weeks on a Trolley blog. I haven't been put off med, because I still find how the human body works and all fascinating, and want to work with people. But the horror stories of 72 hour shifts, unpaid overtime, bullying from superiors etc etc makes me so angry. No one should be subject to such downright inhumane working conditions. It's shocking that this is allowed to go on, but from my experiences with the Irish Health Care system I don't know why I'm suprised.

Med's still what I want to do, but I would seriously consider emigrating if the situation here hasn't improved by the time I'd graduate. At the end of theday, doctors deserve a life just as much as anyone else. Long term leep deprivation like that can cause serious health problems, I'm just so mad that basic human rights aren't being met here.

Diabhal_Glas · 26-01-2010 5:07am

jumpguy wrote: »

This is incredible. Someone must do something soon...this is like something just waiting for a brave whistle-blower. Consultants...how an Earth can one human, well educated, well paid do that to another colleague?

Huge drop in applications for junior doctor posts

EITHNE DONNELLAN Health Correspondent

A HUGE DROP in applications for junior doctor posts in hospitals across the State which fall vacant in January has been blamed on the fact that many young doctors are now emigrating.

The Irish Times has seen internal HSE documents which show that applications for junior doctor posts which need to be filled by the new year have fallen by more than half, when compared to a year ago, at some hospitals. Both large and small hospitals are affected and the recruitment problems may result in “significant gaps in service areas” next year.

Many junior doctors in training rotate jobs every six months and a review of applications lodged for those jobs falling vacant in January 2010, now that the deadline for applications has passed, shows there has been: a 59 per cent drop in applications for NCHD (non-consultant hospital doctor or junior doctor) posts at Tullamore Hospital; a 56 per cent drop in applications for posts at Connolly Hospital in Dublin; a 56 per cent drop in applications for posts at Cavan/Monaghan hospitals; a 48 per cent drop at Waterford Regional Hospital; a 45 per cent drop at Cork University Hospital and a 35 per cent drop at Dublin’s St Vincent’s hospital.

Data from all hospitals is not yet available.

The HSE’s national medical manpower managers have discussed the issue at recent meetings and “are very concerned at the reduction in applications for NCHD posts in our hospitals”, an internal HSE document states.

The memo from one HSE official to another warns: “This substantial reduction in the number of applications will lead to major difficulties in filling these posts”.

It adds: “Where we can not directly fill posts, we will have to rely on medical recruitment agencies that are high cost and are not the solution to this problem.”

It goes on to state that the posts proving most difficult to fill are general surgery, anaesthetics, emergency medicine, radiotherapy, oncology, plastic surgery, cardiothoracic and orthopaedic surgery.

A separate letter states “it is likely that we will have significant gaps in service areas” as a result.

Dr Anthony O’Connor, a member of the NCHD committee of the Irish Medical Organisation, said the talk among junior doctors in all hospitals now was how quickly they could get out of Ireland. “There has been huge turbulence over the last 12 months for NCHDs,” he said, adding that their contracts had been unilaterally changed before the High Court intervened and then there had been a Labour Court recommendation on new working hours and rosters to ensure compliance with the European working time directive which states they should not work more than 48 hours a week.

He claimed the reduction in their hours was being introduced in a “ham-fisted” way.

“Earlier this year when that happened [contracts were changed], I was getting e-mails from recruitment companies in Australia and New Zealand saying we have heard about the difficulties people are having in Ireland and offering jobs,” he said.

“Every NCHD in Ireland would know at least five to 10 people that would have gone to Australia or New Zealand in the last few months,” he added.

Some NCHD posts would usually be filled by doctors trained overseas but Dr O’Connor said: “I think word has gotten out that Ireland is not as attractive a destination as it used to be for doctors any more.”

A HSE spokesman said that while there have been reductions in NCHD income arising from reductions in working hours related to the implementation of the European working time directive and the public sector pension levy, the HSE “anticipates that the new NCHD contract to take effect from 1st January 2010 will be attractive to those interested in working in Ireland”.

He added that while the HSE faced a challenging recruitment environment, the numbers of stand-alone NCHD positions to be filled should be fewer in January than in the previous year.

There are about 4,000 junior doctors working in Irish hospitals. The HSE plans to reduce their numbers by extinguishing two NCHD posts for each new consultant employed.

NCHDs are currently seeking pay rises of between 25 and 40 per cent to make up for loss of overtime since their hours were cut. The HSE has been paying €250 million a year in overtime to junior doctors.

'Now I do not want to come back to a system in chaos'

DR PATRICK O’Sullivan (25) began working as a junior doctor on July 1st this year at Tallaght hospital, Dublin, after graduating from Trinity College.

He plans to go to work in Australia once his intern year has been completed in six months time.

Several of his friends are also travelling, he says.

Dr O’Sullivan stresses that many junior doctors travel overseas to get experience during their careers but what made his mind up for him was the multitude of changes introduced for junior doctors in the healthcare system here in recent months.

“What made me decide to go was the kind of atmosphere that’s been created by these attempts by management to put the 48-hour week in place without employing extra staff,” Dr O’Sullivan says.

“We are expected to have the same productivity in less hours, which is unrealistic and unfair and it’s left a bad taste in the mouth,” he adds.

Many junior doctors had to work longer than the permitted 48 hours a week to ensure patients were cared for and there was then uncertainty over whether they would be paid for these extra hours.

“I’m going to be earning less in Australia, but it’s more the atmosphere and having a system that is adequately staffed and resourced and where you are not made to feel you are expected to compress all of your work into a shorter timeframe,” he says.

“In the beginning I was looking at going for 12 months but now I do not want to come back to a system that is in chaos and where you feel like you are under attack for doing your job.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1128/1224259620164.html

Before considering medicine as a career READ THIS!

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