Historical gun for sale today

Grizzly 45

From todays Indo...
In Mealys auctions today

Major John Mac Bride's .44 Webley Patent Revolver Pistol, manufactured Under Licence by Rigby & Sons, Dublin. This pistol was left in for repair at Lamberts, Hatch St., Dublin, prior to Easter week 1916, by Major Mc Bride, he never collected it and it was not returned to him. Estimated selling price: € 600 - 900


Wonder is it a DEACT,or what Good Reason you could put down to posses it ??Be a crying shame if it is reduced to a non firing lump of metal:(

rowa

lovely webley , the estimated price seems very low though.

meathstevie

There's heaps of Webleys around Ireland, especially Northern Ireland, and the UK if someone wishes to buy one hence the price.

Grizzly 45

Apart from the historical perspective of it.Does the fact that it was a liscensed version made by Rigby in Dublin add any value to it?

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Apart from the historical perspective of it.Does the fact that it was a liscensed version made by Rigby in Dublin add any value to it?

I know rigby are still going strong today , obviously not in gun unfriendly ireland , but i thought the gun might have been of interest to wealthy irish-american collectors as it would be of interest to them on several levels.
Webleys seem to fetch very high prices in the states and those with any sort of proveable history even more so, added to that the fact that they wouldn't have to go crawling to some unaccountable public servant for a licence and i would certainly think it would be going abroad.

http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/html/history.html

http://www.johnrigbylondon.com/index2.html

It wasn't me!

On the historical guns we can't own note, I found a centenary model Browning Hi Power on gunbroker.com last night. Lovely. Ornate without being too tacky. However, I couldn't buy it on the understanding that it would be decommissioned. That would be wrong to me.

kowloon

Does the hammer look like it's sitting back a bit there?
Could very well be butchered already.

rowa

kowloon wrote: »

Does the hammer look like it's sitting back a bit there?
Could very well be butchered already.

half cock maybe ?

pedroeibar1

Provenance is everything. Condition is very helpful, but less than perfect condition can be outweighed by strong provenance. I agree with Rowa, the guide price seems low.

P.

Mellor

meathstevie wrote: »

There's heaps of Webleys around Ireland, especially Northern Ireland, and the UK if someone wishes to buy one hence the price.

That's beside the point. It's not the modle but rather the owner thats gives its value. very low imo.
I found it a little funny that they felt it important to mention it was never returned to him, they could hardly walk into Kilmainham and hand it to him.

Mac Bride was a key figure in the rising. He also fought in the Boer war. When facing the firing squad in Killmainham he decline a blindfold and said something like;

"I have looked down the muzzles of too many guns in the Boer war to fear death, now please carry out your sentence"


Obviously his son was even more so historically significant. AFAIK, the family has all since passed away.

pedroeibar1

Mellor wrote: »

Obviously his son was even more so historically significant. AFAIK, the family has all since passed away.

Sean McB had two children, Tiernan, who was a film-maker and a daughter. Tiernan died in the mid 1990s. I don't know about the daughter.

Anyone hear what the revolver went for?

P.

Mellor

I knew his son died, buried together in Glasnevin. I wasn't aware that he had a daughter. If she was still alive I hope she was aware of the sale.

I'd be interested in the final price also.

meathstevie

Mellor wrote: »

That's beside the point. It's not the modle but rather the owner thats gives its value. very low imo.
I found it a little funny that they felt it important to mention it was never returned to him, they could hardly walk into Kilmainham and hand it to him.

Mac Bride was a key figure in the rising. He also fought in the Boer war. When facing the firing squad in Killmainham he decline a blindfold and said something like;

"I have looked down the muzzles of too many guns in the Boer war to fear death, now please carry out your sentence"


Obviously his son was even more so historically significant. AFAIK, the family has all since passed away.

It does matter to an extent, if it would have been a rather unusual weapon with the same history it would have been valued a good bit more. Obviously the man's historical importance stands on it's own whether he had a Webley or a Luger or a Colt.

Mellor

That's not what I said. I never said that the rarity doesn't matter. I said that the value (in this case only) comes from the history. Hence, I expected it to be higher. The listed price was a steal imo. If I was at home I'd buy it.

Obviously, if it was a one of a kind custom piece this adds to the history value, I doubt anyone disagrees.

rowa

Someone said webleys are common in ireland and that is true , but the victorian and edwardian era revolvers and semi-autos are very sought after by collectors and something like the webley-fosbery revolver is a real find ,
Most webleys around are the later ex military second world war stuff and are not very scarce.
Just hope whoever bought it didn't have to have it deactivated like the tolkien revolver had to be before it was put on display.
http://www.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.00o00200h

pedroeibar1

rowa wrote: »

I know rigby are still going strong today , obviously not in gun unfriendly ireland

Gone from Ireland since the 1890's so it's not very relevant.Wouldn't be around today if they stayed, las we lack an Empire, tigers, and all that;)

Didn’t the first Kavanagh start as an apprentice in Rigbys?
Interesting links on your post. Terry Weiland is the author of “Spanish Best” – a book that gives a very good insight into Spain’s best shotguns, Arrizabalagas, Grullas, Garbi’s etc.
Neil McVeigh in Monkstown had a lovely Rigby double rifle for sale a year or so ago, beautiful piece, about 15k I seem to recall. I need the Lotto :mad:
Will have to phone Adams to get the sale price of that Webley if it is not posted soon....Is it normal that it did not have a ring for a lanyard? I always thought that revolvers, officers, for the use of, had lanyards??
Tnx
P.

rowa

yes it is a terrible pity that there are very few gunshops let alone gunsmiths or even better gunmakers left in dublin city, the rigby name is only that , a name , no real history behind the people making the modern guns, unike purdey or h+h etc.
as for macbrides webley and its lack of lanyard, as far as i know officers were not supplied with revolvers but had to buy there own, maybe they were given an allowance, if ya want to see a good link look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXoa5zNn0TU

Grizzly 45

AFIK it was also left up to British Army officers as to personal choice as to the sidearms they carried.As there is plenty of evidence of them carrying personally purchased Colt 1911s,Mausers 1896s,Webleys in revolver and semi.Not to mind a good supply of ammo:eek:.Seems to have been the same on the other side as well,except your choice was limited to Mauser or Luger.

meathstevie

On a slightly different note; I've recently seen a 1916 Erfurt manufactured Luger in excellent condition in it's original holster with matching serial numbers all over ( not a mix and match job ), original maintenance tool and spare magazine all together. The pistol had German Imperial stamps on it. What would that be worth ? Keeping in mind that it probably has seen action in two world wars.

Also recently seen was a Japanese WWII Nambu, extremely crude piece of junk imo. It looks like a crudely cobbled together clunker some gangster with a bit of machining experience could have made. Feels and handles like it as well.

foxshooter243

meathstevie wrote: »

On a slightly different note; I've recently seen a 1916 Erfurt manufactured Luger in excellent condition in it's original holster with matching serial numbers all over ( not a mix and match job ), original maintenance tool and spare magazine all together. The pistol had German Imperial stamps on it. What would that be worth ? Keeping in mind that it probably has seen action in two world wars.

Also recently seen was a Japanese WWII Nambu, extremely crude piece of junk imo. It looks like a crudely cobbled together clunker some gangster with a bit of machining experience could have made. Feels and handles like it as well.

MS, I was shooting one of these recently ;
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/935Arty1915R.htm

these babys fetch a good price, it had all its paraphenalia with it too and was incredibley accurate, I also had the pleasure of shooting a colt new service 455 eley revolver, although it had the cylinder shaved to accept 45 auto rim or acp ammo, with the use of half moon clips, some of the older stuff is really nice.

Paddysnapper

Anybody know what this item made?

rrpc

Paddysnapper wrote: »

Anybody know what this item made?

Ring the auction rooms, they usually will tell you as it's good advertising for them.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

On a slightly different note; I've recently seen a 1916 Erfurt manufactured Luger in excellent condition in it's original holster with matching serial numbers all over ( not a mix and match job ), original maintenance tool and spare magazine all together. The pistol had German Imperial stamps on it. What would that be worth ? Keeping in mind that it probably has seen action in two world wars.

A LOT! check the blue book of gun values .google it for a current addy.
One BTW to have on your favourite list.It is a std ref tool as well .

Also recently seen was a Japanese WWII Nambu, extremely crude piece of junk imo. It looks like a crudely cobbled together clunker some gangster with a bit of machining experience could have made. Feels and handles like it as well.

A total POS indeed.But worth a lod of cash too.

rowa

I was on the hunt for a webley bulldog revolver before mr.ahern stuck his oar in, they don't fetch huge money, this stubby revolver was made famous by arthur conan doyle as the gun he put in the hands of sherlock holmes in some of his adventures around london etc, most famously shooting tonga from boat to boat in "The sign of four".
anyway i'll never know now as no new (or old) centrefires are going to see the light of day here again :mad:.

Grizzly 45

Apprently the Buldog was much favoured by the RIC plainclothes detectives in .455 Webly manstopper.As there are a few about in auctions with the old RIC stamped on them.

pedroeibar1

Phoned Mealy's this morning. The Major's gun was sold for 1900 euro. Seems OK, long-term it would be a good investment for that money.
P.

pedroeibar1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

AFIK it was also left up to British Army officers as to personal choice as to the sidearms they carried.As there is plenty of evidence of them carrying personally purchased Colt 1911s,Mausers 1896s,Webleys in revolver and semi.Not to mind a good supply of ammo:eek:.Seems to have been the same on the other side as well,except your choice was limited to Mauser or Luger.

When I was a kid Irish Army officers had a choice of a 1911 colt (A model I think) or a webley 45 revolver. I seem to recall that all had lanyard rings (probably dated to WW1 surplus too:D) They also used a Gustav lmg.
Lanyards derived from the trenches, going over the top and all that.FWIW.
P

Grizzly 45

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

When I was a kid Irish Army officers had a choice of a 1911 colt (A model I think) or a webley 45 revolver. I seem to recall that all had lanyard rings (probably dated to WW1 surplus too:D) They also used a Gustav lmg.
Lanyards derived from the trenches, going over the top and all that.FWIW.
P

More like Browning Hi power or in Irish army parlance the BAP.The only other handgun the Irish Army ever issued as a stopgap was belive it or not the German Luger navy model.There were so many brought back by Ex Irish servicemen who fought with the British forces from the 1st world war where the Royal Irish regts faced the German Marine units in 1916 on the Marne[?] That in the civil war and war of independance there were huge amounts confiscated by the Govt,that in the emergency they were issued to Irish officers.

The Gustav bTW is a sMG,not a LMG,you are thinking of the Bren gun?
The lanyards were actually from the Calvary.Lot easier to loose a pistol on a galloping horse[Despite many Hollywood Westerns to the contary!].
The US calvary had two even when the 1911 became a std sidearm.One for the gun and another for the magazine!Lose the mag,which were in short supply,and your 1911 is a single shot pistol:eek:

pedroeibar1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

More like Browning Hi power or in Irish army parlance the BAP.The only other handgun the Irish Army ever issued as a stopgap was belive it or not the German Luger navy model.There were so many brought back by Ex Irish servicemen who fought with the British forces from the 1st world war where the Royal Irish regts faced the German Marine units in 1916 on the Marne[?] That in the civil war and war of independance there were huge amounts confiscated by the Govt,that in the emergency they were issued to Irish officers.

The Gustav bTW is a sMG,not a LMG,you are thinking of the Bren gun?
The lanyards were actually from the Calvary.Lot easier to loose a pistol on a galloping horse[Despite many Hollywood Westerns to the contary!].
The US calvary had two even when the 1911 became a std sidearm.One for the gun and another for the magazine!Lose the mag,which were in short supply,and your 1911 is a single shot pistol:eek:

I'll bow to your knowledge Grizz, I'm not a handgun guy. I recall a Colt pistol and when I later saw a 1911 it "fitted". I also recall the revolver - always assumed it was a Webley. Typo on sub/light, brain not fully working. Gustav, Carl. folding frame stock. I also remember the bren, on a bipod and the curved mag. Not to mention the Lewis, with its belt and watercooled. And the Lee Enfield 303s.
Feeling like auld Mr. Brennan now.............:)
P.

Grizzly 45

.

Not to mention the Lewis, with its belt and watercooled. And the Lee Enfield 303s.
Feeling like auld Mr. Brennan now.............:)

P.

The Lewis[AKA the Daisy cutter] is a top drum mounted LMG,and is aircooled.;)
Think you mean the Vickers.:) Water & sailcloth belt.

kowloon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.P.

The Lewis[AKA the Daisy cutter] is a top drum mounted LMG,and is aircooled.;)
Think you mean the Vickers.:) Water & sailcloth belt.

The barrel shroud on the Lewis does make it look like a watercooled gun though.

pedroeibar1

kowloon wrote: »

The barrel shroud on the Lewis does make it look like a watercooled gun though.

Perhaps, but Grizz was right; the one I was thinking of was the Vickers.
Rs
P.

rowa

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Phoned Mealy's this morning. The Major's gun was sold for 1900 euro. Seems OK, long-term it would be a good investment for that money.
P.

i think it was a fair price for such a historical gun , any idea if it stayed in the republic ? would it have to be hacked up (deactivated) if it were kept here ?

pedroeibar1

rowa wrote: »

i think it was a fair price for such a historical gun , any idea if it stayed in the republic ? would it have to be hacked up (deactivated) if it were kept here ?

I gave Mealys the Lot No. and asked what it made. I imagine they would not comment on purchaser. Price seemed at the lower end IMO, but pre-sale advertising was not properly targetted. I'd guess that a few on here would have brought it up a bit, and any US interest would have brought multiples of that price, think of the Maud Gonne connection, etc., and what some common/basic but good provenance guns make over there. Hope it went to the Nat. Museum.
Any de-activation would in my view destroy its value. Options would be to leave in a RFD's storage or loan to a museum if you wanted to avoid the licence fee. I would love to have bought it even if only to have a go at the current licencing system BS. Imagine the headlines "Minister forces export of 1916 Relic" or "Gun Away"

harmoniums

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I gave Mealys the Lot No. and asked what it made. I imagine they would not comment on purchaser. Price seemed at the lower end IMO, but pre-sale advertising was not properly targetted. I'd guess that a few on here would have brought it up a bit, and any US interest would have brought multiples of that price, think of the Maud Gonne connection, etc., and what some common/basic but good provenance guns make over there. Hope it went to the Nat. Museum.
Any de-activation would in my view destroy its value. Options would be to leave in a RFD's storage or loan to a museum if you wanted to avoid the licence fee. I would love to have bought it even if only to have a go at the current licencing system BS. Imagine the headlines "Minister forces export of 1916 Relic" or "Gun Away"

Damn and drat, I totally would've scooped that one up

pedroeibar1

harmoniums wrote: »

Damn and drat, I totally would've scooped that one up

Just as well the two of us were not there!:D:D:D
I'm not surprised really, I've seen some s#1 t make big money at auctions here and then seen other stuff sell for way below its value. I once looked at a pair of Cogswell & Harrison in 12g that had been guntered and were fit for scrap and they made several grand:rolleyes:! Depends on who is there on the day.
P.
Who is old enough to remember when chargers were used for real and night firing exercises prior to fellas going off to fight the Balubas.

rowa

i notice in the back of the irish times and the indo that they do reports from country house auctions and there are often firearms , usually old ones , included . one last week there was a dueling pistol listed and it went for €1,900 , think it was a trulock of dublin .