Who believes?

Tomtata

Who can honestly say they believe in Christianity without having been brain washed as a child?

Were you raised without a Religion and then choose Christianity?

This has been bothering me for some time now, I personally don't believe in God or Jesus or any of the other fairy tales that were told to me as a child.

I have chosen to raise my children without a religion or belief in a mythical god.

If you really look at life and our development in Technology and Science, what is the reason in brain washing children with a belief in a mythical god???

I can maybe understand it hundreds of years ago we simply were not able to explain certain aspect of life so we substituted this with believes in mythical ideas.

People laugh at Scientology, Mormons & other strange religions because of their wild believes but look at Christianity it only seems lesser because it’s the norm!

Tnks for reading.

Soul Winner

Is it OK for people who truly believe in Christianity to raise their children to at least respect the faith of their parents even though they might not hold to that faith themselves later on in life? I mean, what are parents who truly believe in Christianity supposed to do? Bring their kids up as atheists?

Fanny Cradock

Please read the charter. Surprisingly accusations of brain washing and the like don't go down well.

Glenster

We're all socially conditioned to have the outlook that our society wants us to have. Calling it brainwashing is a bit hysterical.

Be under no illusions, we condition our kids every day; dont talk to strangers, dont play with fire, keep your trousers on, dont kick that little girl, and raising a kid without a religion is as much a choice for that kid as raising it with one.

If we raise our kids right they'll eventually question whatever they've grown up with; whether it be humanism, religion, capitalism, conventional sexual morality.

TrollHammaren

I personally don't believe in any religion. I was raised a Catholic, and converted to another Christian religion (which will go un-named for now ) when I was a little younger, but renounced my faith a few years ago.

I'm okay with anyone practising whatever they believe, as long as it doesn't infringe on everyone else. For instance, teaching that Christianity, or Islam, or whatever to be the "true" religions in schools, I believe, is simply wrong. Likewise, denying gays the right to marry because it doesn't fit with the traditional, religious concept of the family is, in my opinion, completely wrong.

I used to be fine with the idea of children being brought up according to one faith, but I've since rescinded that believe, as I've seen the damage it does. For instance, I have plenty of gay friends who grew up confused, often developing serious self-esteem issues and suffering from poor mental health because their Christian upbringing conditioned them to believe that what they were feeling was evil.

I respect other people's beliefs, but I can't tolerate their beliefs affecting innocent people.

Nick_oliveri

Christians see it as a given, a right or harmless. But when compared to the promise of santa or the tooth fairy it becomes apparent that children are easily led.

I find it sad that a lot of children cannot decide for themselves while their parents refer to god as factual, and their kids as christians.

Glenster wrote: »

Be under no illusions, we condition our kids every day; dont talk to strangers, dont play with fire, keep your trousers on, dont kick that little girl

Everything I have quoted has a firm basis in reality. Remedial lessons with sometimes dire consequences if not followed. I do believe they are bad examples given the context of the thread.

Tomtata

Some interesting points raised, apologies about the brain washing term, I'm glad to see I’m not alone.

My main personal issue is having a bad feeling when I say I don’t believe, this I put down to the many years of conditioning by a religious believe embedded into me from a very young and naive age.

This is what I feel is totally wrong, I feel we shouldn't have Religion involved in Education, they are totally different aspects of life but through the powers that be remain intertwined without question?

TrollHammaren

Tomtata wrote: »

This is what I feel is totally wrong, I feel we shouldn't have Religion involved in Education, they are totally different aspects of life but through the powers that be remain intertwined without question?

The problem is that a marriage of religion and education in the school system is very much exclusive by its very nature. All children need to be educated, but not all children are part of a particular religion. This means that there is always going to be a group of outsiders being taught principles that are contrary to their personal beliefs.

Tomtata

Glenster wrote: »

We're all socially conditioned to have the outlook that our society wants us to have. Calling it brainwashing is a bit hysterical.

Be under no illusions, we condition our kids every day; dont talk to strangers, dont play with fire, keep your trousers on, dont kick that little girl, and raising a kid without a religion is as much a choice for that kid as raising it with one.

I think this is a cop out, "we condition our kids" yes very true I am conditioning my children to be of great benefit to society when they come of age - Why burden them with doubts & lies thought by an organisation we really have little understanding of?

Also "choice for that kid" - When does the child get a choice?

Nick_oliveri

Tomtata wrote: »

My main personal issue is having a bad feeling when I say I don’t believe, this I put down to the many years of conditioning by a religious believe embedded into me from a very young and naive age.

Here is a similar thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055877683

A bad feeling? Thats hardly down to guilt over not believing what others tell you to. Be an individual.

Fanny Cradock

While I agree that the RCC should eventually have to relinquish their position as primary educator in Ireland for a secular body, I don't see why the topic of religion shouldn't be broached in the form of multi-faith RE classes. Like it or not religion isn't going away, and it is better for everybody to be informed about the world around them.

As a side note, I'm not sure what "development in Technology and Science" has to do with disproving Christianity. There are many Christians working in the technology sector and the sciences.

Soul Winner

Tomtata wrote: »

Some interesting points raised, apologies about the brain washing term, I'm glad to see I’m not alone.

My main personal issue is having a bad feeling when I say I don’t believe, this I put down to the many years of conditioning by a religious believe embedded into me from a very young and naive age.

This is what I feel is totally wrong, I feel we shouldn't have Religion involved in Education, they are totally different aspects of life but through the powers that be remain intertwined without question?

For centuries our western culture has been built upon the premise that what was passed down to us from the 1st century on wards was in fact true .i.e. that Jesus was the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead. Like it or lump it that is our heritage. Now if we want to change the pillars upon which our culture and society rests we must first show that what we have hitherto believed in to be true to be actually false. Has the basic tenets of the Christian faith been proven to be false? Has the resurrection been disproven? Not as far as I know. What we are being brainwashed into believing now is that resurrections cannot occur, therefore they didn't occur and anyone who reports that they did occur is obviously lying because resurrections cannot occur, therefore they didn't occur etc etc etc. Resurrections cannot occur naturally this we all agree on. It would take a supernatural force beyond our comprehension to be able resurrect a dead person. We refer to this force as God, and the New Testament in every instance of the resurrection of Jesus credits it to this supernatural God. So what we are charge with is to show conclusively that this God does not and cannot possibly exist. Until that happens the power which stormed Christianity onto the scene in the first place will have to be usurped by a greater force, so until that force arrives I for one am sticking to my heritage and proudly bringing my kids up in the Christian faith and will fight to the death for my right to do that with no apology given whatsoever. The burden of proof is on the johnny come lately objector if he wants to replace the centuries old pillars of truth that our western cultures are rooted in.

Nick_oliveri

I'd have no problem with anyone teaching religious history to kids, but teaching them that a particular religion is factual grinds my gears.

As a side note, I'm not sure what "development in Technology and Science" has to do with disproving Christianity. There are many Christians working in the technology sector and the sciences.

It doesn't disprove Christianity, nothing can. Its a paradox?, isnt it?

Soul Winner wrote: »

(words)

Thats right, we have always done it, im gonna keep doing it with no apology so lets keep doing it because no-one can disprove god. Heres to the future!

TrollHammaren

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

While I agree that the RCC should eventually have to relinquish their position as primary educator in Ireland for a secular body, I don't see why the topic of religion shouldn't be broached in the form of multi-faith RE classes. Like it or not religion isn't going away, and it is better for everybody to be informed about the world around them.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you there. There's nothing wrong with educating children about world religions; it's only a problem when schools favour one religion as to hold the absolute truth.

TrollHammaren

Soul Winner wrote: »

For centuries our western culture has been built upon the premise that what was passed down to us from the 1st century on wards was in fact true .i.e. that Jesus was the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead. Like it or lump it that is our heritage. Now if we want to change the pillars upon which our culture and society rests we must first show that what we have hitherto believed in to be true to be actually false. Has the basic tenets of the Christian faith been proven to be false? Has the resurrection been disproven? Not as far as I know. What we are being brainwashed into believing now is that resurrections cannot occur, therefore they didn't occur and anyone who reports that they did occur is obviously lying because resurrections cannot occur, therefore they didn't occur etc etc etc. Resurrections cannot occur naturally this we all agree on. It would take a supernatural force beyond our comprehension to be able resurrect a dead person. We refer to this force as God, and the New Testament in every instance of the resurrection of Jesus credits it to this supernatural God. So what we are charge with is to show conclusively that this God does not and cannot possibly exist. Until that happens the power which stormed Christianity onto the scene in the first place will have to be usurped by a greater force, so until that force arrives I for one am sticking to my heritage and proudly bringing my kids up in the Christian faith and will fight to the death for my right to do that with no apology given whatsoever. The burden of proof is on the johnny come lately objector if he wants to replace the centuries old pillars of truth that our western cultures are rooted in.

Such a conservative ideal only acts to perpetuate the belief that societies are built upon absolute truths. Before we had Christianity we had societies such as the Aztecs whose pillars were built upon polytheistic beliefs. Some of their traditions included tearing out human hearts and throwing corpses off pyramids. Was it right to do that because it was their traditions?

There's nothing wrong with constantly advancing and improving upon society, it's how we evolve. We don't need to disprove Christianity to want to improve society, even if it involves removing Christian principles from school systems.

Fanny Cradock

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Such a conservative ideal only acts to perpetuate the belief that societies are built upon absolute truths. Before we had Christianity we had societies such as the Aztecs whose pillars were built upon polytheistic beliefs. Some of their traditions included tearing out human hearts and throwing corpses off pyramids. Was it right to do that because it was their traditions?

And how do you know that societies aren't built on absolute truths? Also, why on Earth would you mention ripping out hearts and throwing corpses from the top of pyramids? No one is suggesting that all traditions are of equal value.

Soul Winner

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Such a conservative ideal only acts to perpetuate the belief that societies are built upon absolute truths.

What's wrong with that? In your opnion, is there such a thing as an absolute truth? I'll try and answer for you.

If you say that there is then what is it?

If you say that there isn't, then what you have just said becomes the absolute truth.

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Before we had Christianity we had societies such as the Aztecs whose pillars were built upon polytheistic beliefs.

The Aztecs did what was right in their own eyes. Christianity came along and said no, God desires mercy not sacrifice and won the day, so until a stronger belief system comes along which can improve on that I'm proudly sticking to my Christian heritage.

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Some of their traditions included tearing out human hearts and throwing corpses off pyramids. Was it right to do that because it was their traditions?

Looking back through the 20-20 vision of hsitorical glasses that we posses because of our Christian heritage of course we can say that it was wrong but put yourself back in the darkness of their times, they were simply trying to do good for their people by making these sacrifices. Their intent was for a greater good for their society, it wasn't done so that they could get off on the suffering of others, and in the cases where it was then yes this was an evil thing.

TrollHammaren wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with constantly advancing and improving upon society, it's how we evolve. We don't need to disprove Christianity to want to improve society, even if it involves removing Christian principles from school systems.

But are the principles that are being removed really Christian to begin with? I contend that in most case they aren't. And even if they were I don't see why the actual Christian faith should be crammed down anyone's throat. I believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ should be preached to everyone, and that whoever wants to hear it and believe in it should be allowed to do so, and whoever wants to reject should be allowed to do so also.

I don't believe that it needs to be taught in schools along side other subjects unless it is part of a religion class which teaches what Christians actually believe along side what Jews and Muslims actually believe also. There should be no private opinions given by the teacher as to where they stand or not on any particular religion, just teach the facts and keep your opinion to yourself until it is asked for by your students.

The Gospel should be preached in churches and people should have the right to go to these churches and be able to worship their God in peace without any outside interference whatsoever. And those who choose not to do so should be likewise left alone by those in the church. This is what a truly tolerant society looks like.

StormWarrior

I've been wondering for a while about something. If you are a Christian who believes that non-believers go to hell, I can understand why you would bring your child up as a Christian. But there's always a big chance that when they get older, they won't believe in it any more, and will stop being Christians, and therefore, to some ways of thinking, will go to hell. Considering that hell is meant to be horrific beyond belief and last for an eternity, if you genuinely believe in this, isn't it better to never have kids, and therefore not take the big risk of your child ending up in hell?

PDN

In response to the OP. I was given no choice or opportunity to make up my mind for myself. I was raised as an atheist.

Interestingly, the fastest growth that has ever occurred in Christian history is presently taking place in China. Each year millions of Chinese are converting to Christianity, many of whom who were indoctrinated with atheism in school and in the home.

Here is a typical story, one that I have heard repeatedly from young professionals and intellectuals in China: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2010-03/17/content_9602273.htm

StealthRolex

Tomtata wrote: »

Who can honestly say they believe in Christianity without having been brain washed as a child?

Indoctrinated perhaps but not brainwashed.

Tomtata wrote: »

Were you raised without a Religion and then choose Christianity?

As above however for a period I was what is known as "a lapsed Catholic" and did a bit of a Prodigal Son routine for a while. At the same time I was questioning what was left of my faith and came back to it. I still question though but a good bit less militant now.

Tomtata wrote: »

This has been bothering me for some time now, I personally don't believe in God or Jesus or any of the other fairy tales that were told to me as a child.

IMO there are subtle differences between Bible stories and fairy tales.

Tomtata wrote: »

I have chosen to raise my children without a religion or belief in a mythical god.

I don't believe anyone should indoctrinate their children in any mythical god. The one true God certainly but the mythical ones are best left to classical studies

Anyway, as far as your children are concerned it is usually a few years before they realise you are not omnipotent. Until then you can do as you like or as your duty dictates.

Tomtata wrote: »

If you really look at life and our development in Technology and Science, what is the reason in brain washing children with a belief in a mythical god???

Children today are very quick to acquire a belief in the mythical god of science and technology. This brainwashing can happen without our control if we do not keep a close eye on them. It is our duty to direct them away from this god and encourage them to treat it as if it had feet of clay.

Tomtata wrote: »

I can maybe understand it hundreds of years ago we simply were not able to explain certain aspect of life so we substituted this with believes in mythical ideas.

There is still much we cannot explain and even science is not immune to mythical ideas when it sees fit. Sorry - unsubstantiated theories

Tomtata wrote: »

People laugh at Scientology, Mormons & other strange religions because of their wild believes but look at Christianity it only seems lesser because it’s the norm!

There can be much to laugh at as many comedians who worked before the days of political correctness know but we will not gain their respect until we learn to laugh with them. In the meantime we can treat them the same love and respect due to our neighbours and enemies.

Tomtata wrote: »

Tnks for reading.

Cheers, you got me thinking again.

Stephentlig

Who can honestly say they believe in Christianity without having been brain washed as a child?

Brainwashed? there are many who convert to Christianity from all walks of belief.

Were you raised without a Religion and then choose Christianity?

I was raised Catholic, then fell away for many years and then came back.

I have chosen to raise my children without a religion or belief in a mythical god.

So you have chosen to opt for dropping one belief, and then to brainwash your kids with another, one that has no evidence to sustain its theory that God doesnt exist?

In order to believe you must seek and find, but I assume that you already believe you have the answer and have closed your heart to the creator, therefore, no conversation we have with you will ever suffice.

There are those who seek God with a genuine open heart and those who pretend they are seeking him but do not realise that they have already made up their mind and are not seeking him but looking rather to disprove him.

My initial thought is that you have come here to vent and do some bashing, your mind has already been petrified therefore speaking to you with the idea of converting you would be equivelant to speaking to a plain whitewashed wall.

All of the above is said to you with the greatest respect and love for you.

Pax Christi
Stephen

Sam Vimes

Stephentlig wrote: »

So you have chosen to opt for dropping one belief, and then to brainwash your kids with another, one that has no evidence to sustain its theory that God doesnt exist?

Do you think that not teaching your child that Allah, Vishnu, Thor and Zeus exist is brainwashing them? Or is it only brainwashing if you don't teach them that the christian god exists?

C14N

Tomtata wrote: »

This has been bothering me for some time now, I personally don't believe in God or Jesus or any of the other fairy tales that were told to me as a child.

I have chosen to raise my children without a religion or belief in a mythical god.

If you really look at life and our development in Technology and Science, what is the reason in brain washing children with a belief in a mythical god???

I can maybe understand it hundreds of years ago we simply were not able to explain certain aspect of life so we substituted this with believes in mythical ideas.

Why? Ever consider that maybe because many people still believe in God? I don't see what technology or science have to do with anything here as both are completely unrelated to religion. You act as if it's simple common knowledge and scientific fact that there is no God which isn't the case at all.

It's perfectly normal for parents to teach their children their own beliefs. You seem to be doing it yourself, where's the confusion?

I have no objection to you teaching your children your beliefs, children need guidance for several years until they're really old enough to think about it.

@Same Vines: I think he only used the term "brainwashing" in respons to the OP's use of the word. He was simply making the point that teaching kids Christianity (or Islam or anything else) is no different to teaching atheism. Obviously nobody is going to expect Thor and Zeus to be taught since nobody still follows Greek mythology (that I know of anyway).

Sam Vimes

C14N wrote: »

@Same Vines: I think he only used the term "brainwashing" in respons to the OP's use of the word. He was simply making the point that teaching kids Christianity (or Islam or anything else) is no different to teaching atheism. Obviously nobody is going to expect Thor and Zeus to be taught since nobody still follows Greek mythology (that I know of anyway).

The OP didn't say he was going to "teach atheism". He said he was going to raise the child without a religion or belief. Not teaching that something is true is not the same as teaching that it is false. It's very common for theists to define atheism as the belief that god does not exist and to do their level best to try to make out that it's just another form of religion but it's really not. When you ask the vast majority of atheists how the universe came into being the answer you will get is "I don't know". Teaching your child that you don't know how the universe came into being is not brainwashing them and you don't have to provide any evidence for it either. The only people who need to provide evidence are those who say they do know. And teaching your child not to accept someone's claims when the supporting evidence is not forthcoming is not brainwashing either

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

In response to the OP. I was given no choice or opportunity to make up my mind for myself. I was raised as an atheist.

Interestingly, the fastest growth that has ever occurred in Christian history is presently taking place in China. Each year millions of Chinese are converting to Christianity, many of whom who were indoctrinated with atheism in school and in the home.

Here is a typical story, one that I have heard repeatedly from young professionals and intellectuals in China: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2010-03/17/content_9602273.htm

How can one be raised as or indoctrinated as an atheist?

Sam Vimes

Ghost Buster wrote: »

How can one be raised as or indoctrinated as an atheist?

They're actually raised and indoctrinated to be good little communists who do what they're told and never question anything that the almighty government says. Part of this indoctrination process involves attacking and suppressing anything that might challenge the power of the state and one of those things happens to be religion.

Ghost Buster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They're actually raised and indoctrinated to be good little communists who do what they're told and never question anything that the almighty government says. Part of this indoctrination process involves attacking and suppressing anything that might challenge the power of the state and one of those things happens to be religion.

Hmm. That sound more like indoctrination into communism to me but I stand to be corrected!
But how can a person claim to be raised an atheist? Atheism isnt even an 'ism' but the lack of an 'ism. To parapharse a few good sound bites I've appreciated from these forums:
Atheism is a belief as much as bald is a hair colour
or
There isnt a name for people who dont collect stamps.

Sam Vimes

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Hmm. That sound more like indoctrination into communism to me but I stand to be corrected!
But how can a person claim to be raised an atheist? Atheism isnt even an 'ism' but the lack of an 'ism. To parapharse a few good sound bites I've appreciated from these forums:
Atheism is a belief as much as bald is a hair colour
or
There isnt a name for people who dont collect stamps.

To "raise" someone as an atheist you just don't teach them that one particular religion is true over all others because if you don't teach them to have belief, they are (theoretically) more likely to lack it. But not teaching a child that a particular belief is true is not what I would call indoctrination

edit: You can also teach your child that there is no god and the universe popped out of nothing but I know very few atheists who claim the former and none who claim the latter

Ghost Buster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

To "raise" someone as an atheist you just don't teach them that one particular religion is true over all others because if you don't teach them to have belief, they are (theoretically) more likely to lack it. But not teaching a child that a particular belief is true is not what I would call indoctrination

Yes yes Im getting into semantics a little now but wouldnt it be more accurate to say 'raised as a non Catholic/Christian/Muslim/ , (delete as appropriate)

Sam Vimes

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yes yes Im getting into semantics a little now but wouldnt it be more accurate to say 'raised as a non Catholic/Christian/Muslim/ , (delete as appropriate)

Yes it would. Although I suppose someone could raise their child to hate all forms of religion which would technically be indoctrinating them into atheism (or anti-theism).

Ghost Buster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes it would. Although I suppose someone could raise their child to hate all forms of religion which would technically be indoctrinating them into atheism (or anti-theism).

But atheism has nothing to do with hating religion. Yes many atheists hate religion, many religious hate other religions. I would say that is just be an atheist teahing their child to hate religion.
This could go on a while eh?:D

Sam Vimes

Ghost Buster wrote: »

But atheism has nothing to do with hating religion. Yes many atheists hate religion, many religious hate other religions. I would say that is just be an atheist teahing their child to hate religion.
This could go on a while eh?:D

Could do yeah

What I can say though is that if an atheist was to teach their child to believe what a lot of theists think atheism is then they would be indoctrinating them but as you know, much of our time over on t'other forum is spent telling theists that we don't actually hold the position they think we do.

Ghost Buster

Ok. Perhaps we should let this get back on topic, what ever it was, before the mods threaten us.:cool:
(Two smileys = JC territory)

PDN

Ghost Buster wrote: »

How can one be raised as or indoctrinated as an atheist?

It's quite simple. You're told from an early age that there is no such thing as a god. If you ask about religion you're told that it's a fairy tale that weak-minded people who need a crutch to get through life are attracted to. Or, in the case of the Chinese, you're taught compulsory classes in primary school on atheism.

Sprinkle in regular reminders that all the wars and misery in the world are caused by religion, and it's quite easy to raise and indoctrinate a child as an atheist.

The problem, of course, is that those children eventually grow up to be adults and then learn to start thinking for themselves.

PDN

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Could do yeah

What I can say though is that if an atheist was to teach their child to believe what a lot of theists think atheism is then they would be indoctrinating them but as you know, much of our time over on t'other forum is spent telling theists that we don't actually hold the position they think we do.

And you speak for all atheists?

Herbal Deity

PDN wrote: »

It's quite simple. You're told from an early age that there is no such thing as a god. If you ask about religion you're told that it's a fairy tale that weak-minded people who need a crutch to get through life are attracted to. Or, in the case of the Chinese, you're taught compulsory classes in primary school on atheism.

Sprinkle in regular reminders that all the wars and misery in the world are caused by religion, and it's quite easy to raise and indoctrinate a child as an atheist.

Hang on, that's being indoctrinated with anti-theism, not atheism.

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

It's quite simple. You're told from an early age that there is no such thing as a god. If you ask about religion you're told that it's a fairy tale that weak-minded people who need a crutch to get through life are attracted to. Or, in the case of the Chinese, you're taught compulsory classes in primary school on atheism.

Sprinkle in regular reminders that all the wars and misery in the world are caused by religion, and it's quite easy to raise and indoctrinate a child as an atheist.

The problem, of course, is that those children eventually grow up to be adults and then learn to start thinking for themselves.

All of the above are not examples of atheism but examples of what religious think atheists are like because they think atheism (a mis nomer) is an ism, a thing, a hair colour in the way baldness isnt!
I dont believe in a God. I will tell my kid as much but I will not tell him what to think. I wont tell him religion is a crutch for the weak as his friends, uncles, aunts, Grannys etc are all religious and he likes them and would be upset.
I wont tell him that religion has started every war and misery as thats not true.
Others atheists might. They also might tell him to vote Fianna Fail or to only wear briefs but neither are relevant to atheism.

antiskeptic

StormWarrior wrote: »

I've been wondering for a while about something.

Wonder no more..

If you are a Christian who believes that non-believers go to hell, I can understand why you would bring your child up as a Christian.

A Christian can't bring his child up as a Christian. He can bring his child up in a Christian surrounding however. Whether that child becomes a Christian or not is a matter for that child and God. And if the Christian parent doesn't point that out to the child - and let's the child go on supposing they are Christian when they might not be, then that would be a disservice.

But there's always a big chance that when they get older, they won't believe in it any more, and will stop being Christians, and therefore, to some ways of thinking, will go to hell.

The chances are that these kids who were never Christians but who were brought up in a Christian household will dump these 'beliefs' at some point. They might well become Christians at some point. They might not. That's up to them. If they don't then to hell they shall go (sorry to be so blunt but it's late and you'd prefer the candour I'm sure)

Considering that hell is meant to be horrific beyond belief and last for an eternity, if you genuinely believe in this, isn't it better to never have kids, and therefore not take the big risk of your child ending up in hell?

You can't take a risk of your child ending up in hell if you've no children. Nor can someone be better of never being born if it be so that they end up in hell. If they were never born "they" wouldn't exist to be better off.

PDN

PDN wrote:

It's quite simple. You're told from an early age that there is no such thing as a god.

Ghost Buster wrote: »

All of the above are not examples of atheism but examples of what religious think atheists are like because they think atheism (a mis nomer) is an ism, a thing, a hair colour in the way baldness isnt!

You guys crack me up.

When it suits you you happily accept Dawkins' arguments in "The God Delusion" as representing atheism.

As soon as we get onto this thread you say, "Oh no, that's not atheism! How can you religious types keep misunderstanding us."

I think you're just wasting our time.

antiskeptic

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Hang on, that's being indoctrinated with anti-theism, not atheism.

Perhaps not all atheists are purests like you. They'll teach their kids the same kinds of things they propagate in the A&A forum or will read bedtime stories from the pages of The God Delusion.

The point PDN is getting at I think, is that parents who don't believe in God don't believe in nothing.

Stephentlig

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Do you think that not teaching your child that Allah, Vishnu, Thor and Zeus exist is brainwashing them? Or is it only brainwashing if you don't teach them that the christian god exists?

Its a form of brainwashing to you, and its a form of misdirection for me, because I believe that Jesus Christ exists, at least those whom are been taught lets say in the Muslim religion are getting some truth that there is a God and they have less far of a road to walk than that of an atheist, who is completely lost in his philosophical-no-evidence-that-God-does-not-exist jargon.

Pax Christi
Stephen

antiskeptic

PDN wrote: »

You guys crack me up.

When it suits you you happily accept Dawkins' arguments in "The God Delusion" as representing atheism.

As soon as we get onto this thread you say, "Oh no, that's not atheism! How can you religious types keep misunderstanding us."

I think you're just wasting our time.

Am I to suppose Dawkins an anti-theist instead of an atheist?

(although I'd hold on being so cracked up when 'our side' (Christianity) has 95,000 (or was it 35,000) denominations and apparently counting)

Herbal Deity

I've never even read the God Delusion...

Michaelrsh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-p8bOoFlPo

PDN

antiskeptic wrote: »

Perhaps not all atheists are purests like you. They'll teach their kids the same kinds of things they propagate in the A&A forum or will read bedtime stories from the pages of The God Delusion.

The point PDN is getting at I think, is that parents who don't believe in God don't believe in nothing.

I could raise the issue that most atheists in the last 100 years have not been purists like Herbal Deity or Sam Vimes. Most of them have been atheists precisely because they were indoctrinated not to believe in God.

However, that would only provoke the response that their atheism is as relevant as having mustaches or some other such nonsense.

Herbal Deity

The largest Christian Church is the Catholic Church.

Can I call all Christians Catholics because of this?

PDN

Herbal Deity wrote: »

The largest Christian Church is the Catholic Church.

Can I call all Christians Catholics because of this?

No, but you are allowed to refer to Catholicism when we are discussing Christianity - and a quick glance through this forum and A&A demonstrates that atheists do so very frequently.

No-one here has claimed that all atheists are indoctrinated - we tend to leave such sweeping statements to people like the OP. So I'm not quite sure what this stuff about calling all Christians Catholics has to do with anything.

Stephentlig

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I've never even read the God Delusion...

Maybe you should, because its probably one of the greatest comedies of all time. :pac:

Even well known atheists are embarrassed by the book.

Michaelrsh

The question is, are Catholics actually Christian. I think this need to be debated.

Herbal Deity

It's more the distinction between atheism and anti-theism that irks me.

I imagine it is similarly quite annoying for Christians when any Irish atheist equates Christianity with Catholicism, hence using that as an example.

PDN

Herbal Deity wrote: »

It's more the distinction between atheism and anti-theism that irks me.

I imagine it is similarly quite annoying for Christians when any Irish atheist equates Christianity with Catholicism, hence using that as an example.

But, except in your own head, no-one equated atheists with antitheists.

Anti-theism is a subset (albeit a large one) of atheism. Just as Catholicism is a subset (albeit a large one) of Christianity, which is itself a subset of Religion.

We have a thread where people being indoctrinated into Catholicism (the subset) is described as being indoctrinated into Religion (the whole). Logically, this is reasonable as the subset is part of the whole.

Similarly, it is reasonable to describe people who are indoctrinated into anti-theism (the subset) as being indoctrinated into atheism (the whole).

You seem to have no problem with the exact same logic being applied in the first case (that's what this thread is about, after all), but then you object when it is applied to the second case.

You can't have your cake and eat it.