Luas Fine

markc1983

I was getting the Luas at Fatima station this morning, i had about 20 euro in change from my night out and there was a tram coming in in 3 minutes. Lots of time to get a ticket i thought? Unfortunately neither ticket machine would work for me. Both machines were on and looked fine but neither screen would respond to my touch. I was the only person to use them.

I didn't know the area so i jumped on the tram and decided I'd explain the situation if i was stopped. I also considered getting off at the next stop and buying a ticket but I was dieing from a hangover and was more concerned about getting home without trowing up.

A ticket inspector got on in the city center, I explained to him the situation, showed him that I had ample funds and offered to pay but he gave me the 45 euro fine.

I was wondering if anything like this had happened anyone else. Does an appeal offer any hope? And if i don't pay the fine what are the consequences? I gave my name and address but happen to be moving house soon.

I feel I should not have to pay any more than the fare, I did by best to buy a ticket but was thwarted due to a fault with their equipment.

Nevyn

I used the luas at the weekend and some of the touch screens are very nonresposive.

DWCommuter

markc1983 wrote: »

I was getting the Luas at Fatima station this morning, i had about 20 euro in change from my night out and there was a tram coming in in 3 minutes. Lots of time to get a ticket i thought? Unfortunately neither ticket machine would work for me. Both machines were on and looked fine but neither screen would respond to my touch. I was the only person to use them.

I didn't know the area so i jumped on the tram and decided I'd explain the situation if i was stopped. I also considered getting off at the next stop and buying a ticket but I was dieing from a hangover and was more concerned about getting home without trowing up.

A ticket inspector got on in the city center, I explained to him the situation, showed him that I had ample funds and offered to pay but he gave me the 45 euro fine.

I was wondering if anything like this had happened anyone else. Does an appeal offer any hope? And if i don't pay the fine what are the consequences? I gave my name and address but happen to be moving house soon.

I feel I should not have to pay any more than the fair, I did by best to buy a ticket but was thwarted due to a fault with their equipment.

Typical story man and you could be genuine, but unless you can prove the ticket machine wasn't working, then so be it with your fine. Thats how this "honour" system works. From the checkers point of view, you had no ticket and were trying to scam it.

DWCommuter

Thaedydal wrote: »

I used the luas at the weekend and some of the touch screens are very nonresposive.

Yes it happens all the time. You have to bounce the finger off them. Not much good if you are in a hurry. On Thursday a maintenence guy was at Heuston "servicing" the TVMs. A very "hi-tech" proceedure involving some intricate work on the screen.;)

dearg lady

yeah, I sometimes find the ticket machines for luas useless, I'd be pokin at them for ages to get them to work. Bu-ut, you did still get on without a ticket, lousy situation, but probably best to suck it up and pay it. If you don't you'll most likely get a summons to court, at the court stage maybe you could explain and get off, depends on the judge really, but it'd be time off work and a LOT of hassle for you.

karlog

That's typical Irish transport for ya

markc1983

I use the dart's ticket machines 3 times a week and have used the luas ones before also. I know they are not perfect and have developed my own tricks for getting them to work but both these machines were totally unresponsive. I spent at least one minute tapping on each of them and nothing. (It was a very sunny day, I wonder does the bright light affect them?)

Anyway I'm a man of principals and my principles tell me i should not pay a fine? Its true that I got on without a ticket but what choice did i have, the ticket machine didn't work and there was no other option of payment. Its almost like a form of entrapment?

In Amsterdam you can pay the driver of the tram, every effort is made to aid the honest passenger. If I'm forced to pay this fine it shows that it is in the companies interest to have faulty machines?

mobpd

markc1983 wrote: »

If I'm forced to pay this fine it shows that it is in the companies interest to have faulty machines?

your logic: I go into Tesco's at Christmas time and the queues for the tills are huge, but never mind I'll walk out the shop with my trolley load of shopping without paying even though I had the money to pay ??

corktina

thats a bit unfair. I reckon if Tesco were to suffer a total till failure, they would like as not tell you to take the shopping for nothing (or a nominal sum) rather than fine you for not being able to pay.

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

thats a bit unfair. I reckon if Tesco were to suffer a total till failure, they would like as not tell you to take the shopping for nothing (or a nominal sum) rather than fine you for not being able to pay.

nope, they tell you tough luck and close the shop. you are entitled to leave your shopping there rather than put it back on the shelves though :P


OP - could you have walked to the next station, most are very close together anyway?

howiya

I love the racist policy Veolia have when it comes to issuing fines. Never see the Roma gypsies being fined, just told to leave the trams

angel01

You still got on the luas without a ticket so you deserved your fine. You wouldn't get in a taxi or a bus without paying so why the excuse for the luas.

To be honest, it makes me sick. Why should I pay and you don't have to? your so called excuses don't hold any water with me. why not use the ticket machines on the other side...

Stabshauptmann

markc1983 wrote: »

Its true that I got on without a ticket but what choice did i have, the ticket machine didn't work and there was no other option of payment.

Well, you could keep trying and wait for the next one. You could have walked to rialto stop - which you can see from fatima and is approx 200m away. Or you could have gotten off at heuston, which you know you should have done, and gotten a (cheaper) ticket and gotten back on.

Cuddlesworth

corktina wrote: »

thats a bit unfair. I reckon if Tesco were to suffer a total till failure, they would like as not tell you to take the shopping for nothing (or a nominal sum) rather than fine you for not being able to pay.

From having worked in a department store where this happened, you are told to leave your shopping where it is and exit the store.

markc1983

angel01 wrote: »

You still got on the luas without a ticket so you deserved your fine. You wouldn't get in a taxi or a bus without paying so why the excuse for the luas.

To be honest, it makes me sick. Why should I pay and you don't have to? your so called excuses don't hold any water with me. why not use the ticket machines on the other side...

I did! I crossed the tracks twice, over and back, only to find that machine unresponsive too!? There are only 2 machines at that station? Like i said, I had lodes of change and would have been happy to pay but there was no other payment option that i could see at the time? If I was in Amsterdam I would have paid the driver but they dont do that here? What would you have done?

And I actually once got a bus where the driver did not have change for a 50 euro note so he gave me a free trip. I guess he accepted that his inability to accept payment was his fault and didnt see any reason why i should suffer for it.

mobpd wrote: »

your logic: I go into Tesco's at Christmas time and the queues for the tills are huge, but never mind I'll walk out the shop with my trolley load of shopping without paying even though I had the money to pay ??

I think thats a bit different! In your scenario there is a payment option easily available, you would have seen the queues on the way in and if there is some unknown factor there are lots of staff members you can talk to before acting on what you believe to be the fairest option?

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Well, you could keep trying and wait for the next one. You could have walked to rialto stop - which you can see from fatima and is approx 200m away. Or you could have gotten off at heuston, which you know you should have done, and gotten a (cheaper) ticket and gotten back on.

All very true and all these toughs crossed my mind.

1. If the screen had shown any form of life I would have persevered with it and waited to get the next tram (15min) but both were totally unresponsive and I did not believe either would ever work. I've experienced such faults with the dart ticket machines and you know they are not coming back so you just go to the next one or failing the the human in the ticket booth. Not an option here.

2. I honestly don't know anything about that line or that area, I had followed some directions and was happy to have found that stop. I didn't notice any other station but I probably didn't look because my logic assumed that the stations would be a much longer distance apart?

3. I agree but I was sick and tired and once i got moving I just wanted to get home. I felt my attempts to pay had been adequate and I had a good case if i was stopped. Anyway even if i did get off at the next stop the inspector could have got me before then as well?

timmywex

The luas machine in charlemont hasnt been taking card payments for a while, or didnt the last time i was there, i use it as an excuse every time, cant top up my smart card., :cool:

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

penexpers

The Luas bye laws state that you must be in possession of a valid ticket at all times, which means that if both ticket machines are out of order, it's tough luck.

Information on the Ticket Vending Machine?
The Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) takes coins, notes, laser and credit cards, it also gives change. The TVM's will not accept credit or laser cards for any purchase under €5.00 or over €50.00. It sells all types of tickets except annual tickets, Taxsaver tickets or smart cards. There are a minimum of two TVM’s per stop. In the case of the machine being out of order please notify our Customer Care Team on Free phone 1800 300 604.
Please use another ticket vending machine to purchase a ticket. You must have a valid ticket at all times on board the tram.

rednik

There is also the emergency help phone at each stop which goes directly to the control room where you can advise the staff of the problem and they can tell you what you can do.

fiacha

You took a chance and you got caught.
No excuses. Take responsibility for your actions and pay your fine.

Terrontress

fiacha wrote: »

You took a chance and you got caught.
No excuses. Take responsibility for your actions and pay your fine.

The sanctimonious posters are inevitable but still annoying.

My take on it is that liability is with both sides equally on this one but as it stands you have been made to bear the brunt.

The guys who fined you have a job that solely involves fining people so if there is even a hint of doubt they will go for you. Does not mean that they were in the right or that they even took a balanced view on the situation.

The whole system is set up to catch decent people. I have witnessed knackers with no tickets being asked to get off and then they wait on the next Luas. I've seen groups of leaving cert age kids going in to town having no ticket, refusing to get off and laughing and making a joke.

If I were you, I'd appeal firstly. And don't listen to the jokers on here who say it is your fault!

Victor

Its not acceptable that some ticket machines are temperamental.

However, you could have gone to another stop and paid there, but you were too hung over for that.

I suggest you pay, but appeal / complain.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

However, you could have gone to another stop and paid there.

How? by getting a tram or walking along the line to the next stop??

At least IÉ allow you on if you can't (physically) get a ticket - Broombridge

Do the rpa have a map showing you how to get to any other stop at every stop?

Do the rpa clearly state at every stop, that if their machines aren't working that you've to feic off and travel some other way?

Another point - CIÉ/IÉ allow you park in their pay carparks for free, when the pay machines are robbed/not working. I'd assume it's up to the service provider to ensure automated systems work as they're supposed to and to take the hit if they don't - Sher how else is there any incentive to fix them?

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

How? by getting a tram or walking along the line to the next stop??

Exactly. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=fatima,+dublin&daddr=James%27s+Walk&hl=en&geocode=FRThLQMduvqf_ykLTy7LOAxnSDGg1BTOO6zkfg%3BFareLQMdUeif_w&mra=cc&dirflg=w&sll=53.338625,-6.294973&sspn=0.004766,0.011587&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16

Do the rpa have a map showing you how to get to any other stop at every stop?

There is a map at every stop. I don't know if this one extends to the next stop or not. Nevertheless you can see one stop fromt eh next there.

Do the rpa clearly state at every stop, that if their machines aren't working that you've to feic off and travel some other way?

I imagine they have some sort of "you must have a ticket" notice. In any case, they are covered bye bye-laws. Ignorance of hte law is no excuse.

Another point - CIÉ/IÉ allow you park in their pay carparks for free, when the pay machines are robbed/not working. I'd assume it's up to the service provider to ensure automated systems work as they're supposed to and to take the hit if they don't - Sher how else is there any incentive to fix them?

Dangerous precedent as it gives people an incentive to break things.

Ham'nd'egger

Carawaystick wrote: »

How? by getting a tram or walking along the line to the next stop??

All LUAS stops have maps them of both the network; stops on the Tallaght line are physically close throughout. At Fatima you can physically see both the next station en route (Rialto). As mentioned, there is the emergency buzzer system to contact LUAS; there are also contact numbers on the posters at each stop so it's not as if you can't either head to the next stop and get a ticket there or alert LUAS if the ticket machines are out of service.

Carawaystick wrote: »

At least IÉ allow you on if you can't (physically) get a ticket - Broombridge

LUAS is an unmanned system and runs under different circumstances. Both apply the principle of fining unticketed travel; Irish Rail just has allowances for some situations whereas LUAS doesn't.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do the rpa have a map showing you how to get to any other stop at every stop?

I believe so but am open to correction on this

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do the rpa clearly state at every stop, that if their machines aren't working that you've to feic off and travel some other way?

No but they do state clearly that you must have a valid ticket before traveling.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Another point - CIÉ/IÉ allow you park in their pay carparks for free, when the pay machines are robbed/not working. I'd assume it's up to the service provider to ensure automated systems work as they're supposed to and to take the hit if they don't - Sher how else is there any incentive to fix them?

As above, if it is broken down, let them know from there and we are talking about two companies and hence two different procedures. Overall, people use both systems knowing that tickets are required so there is an amount of onus on passengers to have a valid ticket; how they acquire one when ticket issuing machines/booths are not working is up to them to sort out.

Edit, Just seen your post, Victor; great minds and all that

Carawaystick

So if all the ticket machines on a line were broken then the public who paid several hundred euros per capita to build the tram systems should just walk?

There's no responsibility on the govt to ensure a working system?

Anyway, expecting potential customers of limited mobility to get themselves to the next stop with no guarantee of them being able to get a ticket there seems piss poor service.

Ham'nd'egger

Carawaystick wrote: »

So if all the ticket machines on a line were broken then the public who paid several hundred euros per capita to build the tram systems should just walk?

How likely is that, exactly?:rolleyes:

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's no responsibility on the govt to ensure a working system?

RPA maintain the system but as we know people break it on them. We don't know how long it was failed for, if indeed it was.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Anyway, expecting potential customers of limited mobility to get themselves to the next stop with no guarantee of them being able to get a ticket there seems piss poor service.

People with limited mobility would probably have a free travel pass and as such won't need tickets on board.

df1985

i wouldnt pay it, appeal it, little chance theyd go to court and pursue it. itd probably be thrown out in court anyway, the way a lot of driving fines are.

and if you're moving house soon, id blank it as knackery as that sounds.fake name and address the next time.....

Ham'nd'egger

df1985 wrote: »

i wouldnt pay it, appeal it, little chance theyd go to court and pursue it. itd probably be thrown out in court anyway, the way a lot of driving fines are.

and if you're moving house soon, id blank it as knackery as that sounds.fake name and address the next time.....

On the contrary, they very much take these to court so ignoring a warrant is about the last thing you should do.

BenShermin

Take it to court, sure the Luas stops at the Four Courts and the new courthouse at Parkgate Street is a short walk from Heuston. You can share your Luas journey to court with fare evading junkies and hoodies.

Pittens

If I'm forced to pay this fine it shows that it is in the companies interest to have faulty machines?

Sure it does. So why can't people pay on the tram? Rather than fine people on the tram, double the price. Then fine them if they refuse to pay that.

You can share your Luas journey to court with fare evading junkies and hoodies.

I bet that the stops between the Four Courts and the Abbey is the part the ticket checkers avoid.

Cant say why.

foggy_lad

Pittens wrote: »

Sure it does. So why can't people pay on the tram? Rather than fine people on the tram, double the price. Then fine them if they refuse to pay that.



I bet that the stops between the Four Courts and the Abbey is the part the ticket checkers avoid.

Cant say why.

busaras is getting as bad as abbey street for beggers homeless people and junkies

markc1983

Hamndegger wrote: »

People with limited mobility would probably have a free travel pass and as such won't need tickets on board.

If your disabled any you have a companion do they get a free pass too? Also slip and break your leg getting out of the bath tomorrow, you wont be mobile and you wont get a pass.

Hamndegger wrote: »

No but they do state clearly that you must have a valid ticket before traveling.

penexpers wrote: »

The Luas bye laws state that you must be in possession of a valid ticket at all times, which means that if both ticket machines are out of order, it's tough luck.

There is a safety aspect here also. The areas that tram goes through don't look fantastic, I don't think someone travailing on their own late at night should be expected to walk between stops because of faulty ticket machines?

I don't know what they would do for you on the phone but I think if they are going to employ such a rule on an important public service the ticketing system should be fail safe. i.e. As a last resort you should be able to pay the driver or have someone in the other drivers seat selling tickets.

Ham'nd'egger

markc1983 wrote: »

If your disabled any you have a companion do they get a free pass too?

If they are included in your travel pass then yes, they are.

markc1983 wrote: »

Also slip and break your leg getting out of the bath tomorrow, you wont be mobile and you wont get a pass.

Chances are if they are this immobile is that they'd use a point to point means of travel, as obscure as your example is.

markc1983 wrote: »

There is a safety aspect here also. The areas that tram goes through don't look fantastic, I don't think someone travailing on their own late at night should be expected to walk between stops because of faulty ticket machines?

Whereas the areas are less dangerous when the ticket machines are working and people are waiting on the platforms:rolleyes:

markc1983 wrote: »

I don't know what they would do for you on the phone but I think if they are going to employ such a rule on an important public service the ticketing system should be fail safe.

At the least they can be informed if both machines are broken and get it seen to and to advise you what to do from here. If this means they won't let you travel then so be it; LUAS can deny you the right to travel if they so wish.

markc1983 wrote: »

i.e. As a last resort you should be able to pay the driver or have someone in the other drivers seat selling tickets.

Dublin Bus have spent years trying to eliminate drivers from handling cash solely to curb assaults. Exposing LUAS drivers to carrying cash and having cabs opened to the public is a safety nightmare waiting to happen on so many levels.

dowlingm

Hamndegger wrote: »

On the contrary, they very much take these to court so ignoring a warrant is about the last thing you should do.

+1. Being done for evading a warrant is the kind of charge anybody young enough to emigrate should be steering well clear of in the current economic climate, especially given the nature of the original offence.

markc1983

Hamndegger wrote: »

Whereas the areas are less dangerous when the ticket machines are working and people are waiting on the platforms:rolleyes:

I assume your taking the p!ss here right? Well lit area, cctv, a panic button and a tram coming in 15 minutes Vs a walk in a doggy area at 11pm? .... Sounds like plot from a bad horror movie?

Anyway see how the appeal goes then.

o1s1n

I had a similar issue last year.

I used the weekly bus and luas ticket. Got on my morning bus and the machine refused to print the ticket. Tried again getting off the bus, didn't print the ticket.

I wasn't getting another bus before getting on the luas. As you cant print these tickets on the Luas I had no way of validating it. Also didn't have any change.

So I Got on a luas thinking it would be a simple enough explanation to the luas inspector. I mean I had a ticket. The thing cost me almost 30 euro. Shouldn't be a problem. right?

Wrong. A non printed ticket is considered 'not valid' and I got a full fine.

Very angry, I wrote a fairly irate letter to Veolia Transport stating how I refused to pay the fine as I should not be held responsible for Dublin bus being unable to maintain their machines in a working order.

They wrote back saying I no longer had to pay the fine, but to in future make sure I had a valid ticket on me.

Argh! I'd have had a valid ticket if your/Dublin buses ticket machines worked :mad:

Still, no fine though. I would urge anyone in such a situation to appeal.

Mycroft H

Its in these circumstances that i always have a false name and address at the ready.

This happened to me at windy arbor just before the last luas arrived. Both the ticket machines were out of action. Neither of them were accepting my notes.

I chanced it and at cowper two ticket checkers arrived.

I gave them a false name and address and binned the fine when i got out in stephens green.......

Its not my fault that i should be stranded because of a broken ticket machine

o1s1n

Having touch screens in the public domain is well..I don't like to use the word 'retarded', but I'm having difficulty thinking of another word. They don't stand up to heavy use. Think of a DS console you've been playing for a few years. It won't be as responsive as it should.

Combine this will people during rush hour trying to get to work and not being able to see the screen on a sunny day and you have a massive pain in the arse.

They should all have a similar setup to ATM machines - buttons beside options on the screen. Button can last for millions of presses before wearing down. And if they do, a simple replacement button isn't very hard or expensive.

They should also have black and white screens. You can actually see black and white screens on a sunny day. Not like their invisible colour counterparts.

Offside

I'd say its worth mentioning in the appeal that if the coin slot is broken on dublin bus they let everyone on for free (has happened to me twice). I'm sure their bye laws also state you must always be in posession of a valid ticket also.

keithclancy

markc1983 wrote: »

In Amsterdam you can pay the driver of the tram, every effort is made to aid the honest passenger. If I'm forced to pay this fine it shows that it is in the companies interest to have faulty machines?

Amsterdam is the only City in the Netherlands where you have to either buy a ticket or get your Strippenkaart stamped by him, its the only city where they don't use the 'honour system'

Too many tourists were riding for free with the "I didn't know" story.

Saying that you can buy a Strippenkaart in most shops.

popebenny16

wonmder what happened to our op in this here thread. one thing in his post struck me - he could have gotten off at any stop to pay his fare, but refused to do so. what is is about fare evaders who really think such outlandish "my dog ate my homework" stories and then when you take them up on it you get "fight the power" posts like those above (or in the current DART fine thread)?

Victor

Posts moved: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056169125#

markc1983

A quick note on how this worked out.

I wrote an e-mail explaining the situation and sent it for appeal. A few minutes later I received an automated reply telling me that I had now entered the appeal process and I need not pay the fine until this was concluded.

1.5 years later I am still waiting on the outcome of this appeal.

keredern

Hi Marc, can you post the email address you used if you still have it?

Many thanks!:)

Victor

https://payments.luas.ie/FinePayment.aspx

LUAS Customer Care

LUAS Depot
Red Cow Roundabout
Clondalkin
Dublin 22

Freephone 1800 300 604
Email info@luas.ie
Website www.luas.ie

CIE

markc1983 wrote: »

I was getting the Luas at Fatima station this morning, i had about 20 euro in change from my night out and there was a tram coming in in 3 minutes. Lots of time to get a ticket i thought? Unfortunately neither ticket machine would work for me. Both machines were on and looked fine but neither screen would respond to my touch. I was the only person to use them.

I didn't know the area so i jumped on the tram and decided I'd explain the situation if i was stopped. I also considered getting off at the next stop and buying a ticket but I was dieing from a hangover and was more concerned about getting home without trowing up.

A ticket inspector got on in the city center, I explained to him the situation, showed him that I had ample funds and offered to pay but he gave me the €45 fine.

I was wondering if anything like this had happened anyone else. Does an appeal offer any hope? And if i don't pay the fine what are the consequences? I gave my name and address but happen to be moving house soon.

I feel I should not have to pay any more than the fare, I did by best to buy a ticket but was thwarted due to a fault with their equipment.

I despise POP for reasons just like that. How can you call it an "honour" system when the ticket checkers are dishonourable? At least with conductors, you can buy the ticket off them.

So, the Luas is not fine.

keredern

Victor wrote: »

https://payments.luas.ie/FinePayment.aspx

Thanks!!;)

I had that but thought that Marc might have used a different one!:)

markc1983

keredern wrote: »

Thanks!!;)

I had that but thought that Marc might have used a different one!:)

Sorry keredern, I don't remember. I may have submitted the appeal on their website either. All I know is the I telephoned them first and followed whatever instructions I was given.