Special needs kid at funeral

LegacyUser

I was at a family funeral last week which was attended to by all of my family, distant and close.
It was very sad and tragic as her death was sudden and not expected at all.

My problem arose when a relative (distant) who attended the funeral with her special needs child refused to leave the church with the kid. I know this a sensitive issue so i'll try be subtle, the kid was making really loud noises and grunts for most of the Mass. This really wasn't needed considering we were all so upset, we couldn't even hear some of the readings or what the priest was saying a lot of the time. I know she had the right to be there just like us but if that was me I would have left the church if my child was being so loud. These noises were really loud and not just occasional, It was as if the child was distressed.

I got so annoyed that I quietly asked her if she would leave the church or go to the back as it was upsetting us. She refused point blank to leave and past some snide remark.
After the Mass she confronted me outside and it got quite heated.

Was I right to ask her to leave or is there something socially wrong with me that I would ask someone with the SN kid to leave a church?

Eve_Dublin

Wow. Really difficult situation. You know something? I would say there's no right and wrong in this situation actually. You were both within your rights to be annoyed...yourself because you understandably wanted peace and quiet to mourn your deceased family member and your friend because I'm sure she's sick and tired of being treated like a social pariah by society and she was a friend of the deceased and wanted to be there to show her respects. Minding a SN child is a full time job, she can't avoid every social situation for the rest of her life for fear of creating a disturbance. That's not fair.

I can see both of your point of views on this one and I think you both have to step into each other's shoes and let it go. If she's not willing to do that, then it's up to you to be the bigger person and apologise JUST for the sake of peace. There's no point arguing over this matter. It's sensitive for both of you and both of you had your very good reasons for getting annoyed.

Ickle Magoo

I think you were wrong to ask her to leave. Her child has special needs, they weren't boisterously running up and down the aisle or singing songs being naughty, that's her child just being her child - there was nothing disrespectful going on.

I appreciate you are obviously raw emotionally but what is more important, that you get to hear every word of the mass or that everyone gets to say goodbye?

cafecolour

Well, that does seem equivalent of a crying baby or such - she probably should've foreseen this and gotten a sitter.

However, going up to her and asking her to take him outside is quite rude. A few glances should've been about the extent of it.

LegacyUser

This is a sticky one, funerals are an important part of the grieving process and although she was within her right to be there also I think you were within your right if the fellow mourners and yourself could not hear the service and the child was distressed. It's inevitable you are going to look bad because the child can't help it.

viclemronny

Your best bet is to apologies. As said above, both have a valid position in this situation, though my natural instinct would be to side somewhat with the child and parent.

Point is to apologies, regardless of whether you are right or wrong as you're going to come off the bad guy if you go up against a SN Child. I know that sounds very cold and to those who it may offend, apologies, but the truth of the matter is that no matter what the situation is, you're going to come off the bad guy if you make an issue of it with a special needs child.

silverharp

OP, an awkward situation for sure. Firstly a church is a public place, the family haven't "hired" it in any way so you had no "right" ro ask her to leave. At the same time if you were part of the immediate family I could understand you going over and explaining that the behaviour is upsetting the family and is there anything she could do, anything stronger and the other person has a case for the moral high ground.

It might be worth writing to the person to diffuse the situation, even to the point of apologising even if you dont feel you ought to.

easy for me to comment, I wasnt there. best of luck!

ClayDavis

Personally I think you were within your rights OP. It's a very sensitive issue granted but I think you handled it well. I think it was incredibly insensitive of her to make a scene outside of a family funeral because you asked he to move to the back of the church/outside. I understand that it must be hard for her as well but I don't see it as that much different to asking a parent and a noisy young child to do the same.

Darthhoob

Annon1515151 wrote: »

I was at a family funeral last week which was attended to by all of my family, distant and close.
It was very sad and tragic as her death was sudden and not expected at all.

My problem arose when a relative (distant) who attended the funeral with her special needs child refused to leave the church with the kid. I know this a sensitive issue so i'll try be subtle, the kid was making really loud noises and grunts for most of the Mass. This really wasn't needed considering we were all so upset, we couldn't even hear some of the readings or what the priest was saying a lot of the time. I know she had the right to be there just like us but if that was me I would have left the church if my child was being so loud. These noises were really loud and not just occasional, It was as if the child was distressed.

I got so annoyed that I quietly asked her if she would leave the church or go to the back as it was upsetting us. She refused point blank to leave and past some snide remark.
After the Mass she confronted me outside and it got quite heated.

Was I right to ask her to leave or is there something socially wrong with me that I would ask someone with the SN kid to leave a church?

what SN does this child have? if you know...i dont suppose it matters but they do vary quite a bit.
my son has Asperger's syndrome and ADHD, he is high functioning and 8 years old...so he would WANT to be at a funeral of a relative if they died, and tbh it would also be good for him to see that process and say goodbye. he has that ability to understand things...but he does not have the ability to control his behaviour easily ESPECIALLY when he is anxious or upset....like at a funeral? he would have just as much right as anyone else to be there.
this child may not have been high functioning though, they may not have 'cared' (for want of a better word) about the person who died, or the situation...so for me it depends on the child themself.


the bit i highlighted jumped out at me... as the reason for those noises could be thatthe child was upset and unable to control themselves.

she perhaps shouldn't have got quite as angry as she did but her kid's SN would have caused run ins before and ...being a funeral...wasn't the best place for her to have another one.

Darthhoob

cafecolour wrote: »

Well, that does seem equivalent of a crying baby or such - she probably should've foreseen this and gotten a sitter.

However, going up to her and asking her to take him outside is quite rude. A few glances should've been about the extent of it.

most peeps with SN kids i know do not have anyone to babysit their child

Neyite

i cant get my head around you asking a special needs person to leave a church irrespective of what is happening inside it- i only hope that your grief caused such a reaction to a special needs child, and that you are not normally such an intolerant person.


i dont think you were right on any level, and i feel you owe an apology to the carer - it doesnt matter if its a distant/close relative or a total stranger, - you asked someone to remove a special needs person from a public place? its discrimination, at the very least.

username123

OP - while I appreciate this was a difficult situation, I think you were wrong to ask this person to leave with her child.

People with any type of disability should not be hidden away to stop them from offending the rest of us. Disability exists, it happens, and as a society we should be tolerant of it.

To look at it from a slightly different viewpoint, would you expect that an adult with verbally offensive Tourettes should remove themselves from funerals? Probably not. They dont do it on purpose to annoy people, its uncontrollable.

Same goes for special needs children. You cant expect someone not to go to a public gathering, because their child has special needs.

I can totally understand why she confronted you outside the church, it was inappropriate but she must have felt awful when you asked her to leave.

I do think its understandable btw that it was annoying you and you would have preferred if she had gone outside of her own accord, but I do think it is wrong to ask someone with a special needs child to leave a CHURCH (a place of christian charity etc....) during a funeral (that she clearly wanted to attend), and its unsuprising that there was a scene outside as a result of it.

LegacyUser

I have to say that I think it's very easy for people to judge the OP because this child was a special needs child. My sister has a child similar to the one the OP described - she acts inappropriately on certain occassions, not the childs fault at all and no family member would have a problem with the child if my sister brought her to a funeral.
But my sister wouldnt bring her to a funeral. Particularly if it was a distant relative - immediate family, absolutely. But my sister knows how distracting my niece can be, and tries to avoid situations like this when she can. And before the PC brigade ask 'But why SHOULD she', she knows she shouldnt. But to control her own blood pressure levels, she does!

OP, it was a particularly awkward situation for you to be in and Im not sure if I would have been brave enough to ask the lady to leave - although i would have wanted to. I was at a christening recently and the priest asked a parent to bring a disruptive child out of the church. This child was about 4 and not a baby who was crying. But he lay in the aisle, kicking and screaming and just because it was a church, we were all expected to ignore his behaviour. And that's exactly what his parents did.
As the first poster said OP, there is no right or wrong in your situation, so I wont say that I would necessarily have done the same thing. But I understand why you might have done it.
Btw, I'm a parent myself.

miss no stars

The PC brigade sure are out in force here.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the OP asking the mother to either leave OR MOVE TO THE BACK, the distant relative was VERY wrong to not move and to then create a fuss.

Seriously, I don't think anyone is blaming the child here. But the mother should know better. People are trying to grieve, they want to hear the funeral. Move to the back. It wasn't as if the OP wanted here to go altogether, just to try and minimise the noise so that oh, the chief mourners could hear the funeral!

There's an obnoxious trend in society of people not giving a damn about other people being effected by their child being noisy and this is another (unfortunate) example of it. Nobody blames the kids, but parents should know better. If a kid is screaming or making a fuss, do your best to minimise the impact that has on other people.

Hrududu

I'd have to side with the OP on this one. You wouldn't go to the funeral of a distant relative and bring a screaming baby with you. And if you did you'd sure as hell bring it outside.

Your child, regardless of whether they have special needs or not, is not more important than everyone else.

omahaid

Hi OP, I don't think you were wrong. A funeral is a sad event and if a relative of mine brought a screaming baby and after a prolonged period of time didn't excuse themselves I probably would mention it too. And for you relative to confront you outside the church afterwards sounds really selfish.

metrovelvet

At my dad's funeral mass there were several people sobbing loudly. It didnt bother me. I wouldnt dare have asked them to leave. Nor would I have asked a crying baby to.

omahaid

metrovelvet wrote: »

At my dad's funeral mass there were several people sobbing loudly. It didnt bother me. I wouldnt dare have asked them to leave. Nor would I have asked a crying baby to.

I've been to a few funerals, I've never been to one where someone was sobbing so loud that I couldn't hear the readings. To not hear the readings must have been incredibly loud. I have kids, I wouldn't dare let them prevent people from mourning.

tenchi-fan

You were completely right. The woman should have got a baby sitter or skipped the funeral and offered her condolences in some other way.

I know a couple who take their handicapped child to every wedding and party going even though she was not invited. They let her run riot. When the couple are dancing, the child runs out on the floor. When photos are being taken, she runs into every single one. The parents make no attempts to mind her or rein her in. No child should be allowed to behave like that - special needs or not.

I think the parents either have a major bee in their bonnet or they just think "special needs, tough break for us, let's share the burden."

stupidusername

miss no stars wrote: »

The PC brigade sure are out in force here.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the OP asking the mother to either leave OR MOVE TO THE BACK, the distant relative was VERY wrong to not move and to then create a fuss.

Seriously, I don't think anyone is blaming the child here. But the mother should know better. People are trying to grieve, they want to hear the funeral. Move to the back. It wasn't as if the OP wanted here to go altogether, just to try and minimise the noise so that oh, the chief mourners could hear the funeral!

There's an obnoxious trend in society of people not giving a damn about other people being effected by their child being noisy and this is another (unfortunate) example of it. Nobody blames the kids, but parents should know better. If a kid is screaming or making a fuss, do your best to minimise the impact that has on other people.

Having been to my own mother's funeral last year, and my nephew having autism, I have to say I would never for a second consider any noises he might have made to be disruptive, and definitely would disagree with the grieving process being ANYTHING to do with hearing the words said in a mass. This is ridiculous. It's like telling someone they're crying too loud!

I can't stand noisy children, and am very intolerant of them considering most of the time they're just let away with anything because of their parents lack of discipline, but for a child with an actual problem that I understand, and do 'tolerate' (although I feel ashamed to use that term here) to be shunned because they're meant to understand social rules or leave the rest of us alone, is just what's wrong with the world.

The OP should realise he/she was probably more upset with grief (or at least should have been) than bothered about the child, and there are more important things in life than conforming with these stupid social rules, as I'm sure the recently deceased would also agree with.

omahaid

stupidusername wrote: »

The OP should realise he/she was probably more upset with grief (or at least should have been) than bothered about the child, and there are more important things in life than conforming with these stupid social rules, as I'm sure the recently deceased would also agree with.

I can see then that any grieving relatives that take some small comfort from the readings are second place as long as the child is allowed roam free? Why are people at the church ceremony if not to grieve for the dead and take comfort from their religion. I am disgusted that some people feel their kids are more important. I know my family are very religious and take comfort from the religious ceremony (I don't btw), they matter too.

miss no stars

stupidusername wrote: »

Having been to my own mother's funeral last year, and my nephew having autism, I have to say I would never for a second consider any noises he might have made to be disruptive, and definitely would disagree with the grieving process being ANYTHING to do with hearing the words said in a mass. This is ridiculous. It's like telling someone they're crying too loud!

I can't stand noisy children, and am very intolerant of them considering most of the time they're just let away with anything because of their parents lack of discipline, but for a child with an actual problem that I understand, and do 'tolerate' (although I feel ashamed to use that term here) to be shunned because they're meant to understand social rules or leave the rest of us alone, is just what's wrong with the world.

The OP should realise he/she was probably more upset with grief (or at least should have been) than bothered about the child, and there are more important things in life than conforming with these stupid social rules, as I'm sure the recently deceased would also agree with.

I'm sorry I can't agree with this. The OP said the child was so loud that they couldn't hear the readings. That's disruptive, whereas crying isn't. And obviously the OP and their relatives feel that hearing what was said at a funeral is important. It ain't about the distant relative and their kid, it's about the close family.

If you nephew makes noise but it's not disruptive that's fine. Clearly this kid was disruptive and having been asked to do something about it the mother got up in arms. That to me screams that it's not a case of the OP being more upset with grief than the noise, it's a case of an obnoxious parent not having basic manners.

LegacyUser

It is quite possible that this child makes noises like that all the time. So she either stays home from everything or she takes a child who makes noises with her. I imagine if she had a sitter she would have not brought him, but she must have wanted to attend this funeral, maybe she was closer to the family member than you realize and being at the funeral was important to her.

I think asking someone to leave because their disabled child is making noises is the wrong thing to do. I've been at funerals where family members sobbed - I wouldn't think of asking them to leave if they are going to cry. Or if someone was in a wheelchair and it was blocking your view would you have asked them to leave because it was inconvenient to you?

I think this is more about attitudes towards social inclusion and whether or not people with disabilities have a right to be included in the same activities and events as their non disabled peers. If their differences are disruptive, inconvenient or irritating because they are different than how you act then excluding them from society is acceptable?

omahaid

inclusion wrote: »

It is quite possible that this child makes noises like that all the time. So she either stays home from everything or she takes a child who makes noises with her. I imagine if she had a sitter she would have not brought him, but she must have wanted to attend this funeral, maybe she was closer to the family member than you realize and being at the funeral was important to her.

I would agree with this if she had been some what apologetic. If she had said, "sorry, I couldn't get a babysitter" then fair enough. But to quote the op - "She refused point blank to leave and past some snide remark.
After the Mass she confronted me outside and it got quite heated. "

Chinafoot

omahaid wrote: »

I would agree with this if she had been some what apologetic. If she had said, "sorry, I couldn't get a babysitter" then fair enough. But to quote the op - "She refused point blank to leave and past some snide remark.
After the Mass she confronted me outside and it got quite heated. "

In fairness, we don't know how the OP asked her to move.

Firetrap

There's no right answer to this one I'm afraid. I remember a row from a few years ago here in Kilkenny where I live. A priest saying mass got irritated by a special needs person in the church and either commented negatively on it or asked for the person to be removed from the church (can't remember the exact details but you get the idea).

Looking at it one way, you were right to ask for the special needs person to be taken out because they were making noise and distracting the mourners. Equally, you can point the finger of blame at the person who was with the special needs person and wonder why they weren't located near the door where they could make a discreet exit should things get too noisy. On the other hand, it wasn't the special needs person's fault that they were sitting in on a ceremony they didn't understand and they're as much entitled to be there as a regular person. Perhaps too, the relative looking after the special needs person is a bit evangelical about this sort of disability and feels very protective.

I don't know if you intend to do anything more about this now but in the interests of family diplomacy, you might need to consider biting your tongue and apologising. Problem with family is that you're stuck with them even if there are people you wouldn't spit on if they were on fire.

Darthhoob

omahaid wrote: »

I would agree with this if she had been some what apologetic. If she had said, "sorry, I couldn't get a babysitter" then fair enough. But to quote the op - "She refused point blank to leave and past some snide remark.
After the Mass she confronted me outside and it got quite heated. "

why the hell should she apologise for having to bring her disabled child along??? i bet she feels the need to do that every damn day...i know i do. i agree she should not have gotten so angry and seen it from the OP's point of view..but that goes TWO ways...they should of seen it from hers also. she obviously wanted to greive, along with everyone else, the child may have too, or she couldn't find a sitter, she went to a funeral to grieve and got confronted about her child's SN. she certainly should have swallowed her pride and left it instead of confronting the OP outside afterwards though...she obviously hasn't grown a thick skin yet.

the op didn't say the child was running around being disruptive they said they were being noisey...my autistic son makes loud, sometimes odd noises when he is distressed or anxious...a funeral can well cause those feelings...the social anxiety and the fact that a relative had died could have caused those feelings....the child's loud noises are the SAME as someone dealing with grief/stress/anxiety by crying...just louder. they can't help it...it's reflex

society could learn a bit more tolerance rather than asking the disabled people to conform to them all the time. are disabled people not allowed to go to funerals anymore? you can guarantee this child will still have SN as an adult, and wouldn't it be just as 'annoying' for the NTs then?

Dudess

miss no stars wrote: »

The PC brigade sure are out in force here.

I think people are just saying the mother has the right to bring her child to the funeral, and in the case of a disabled child it's more difficult to quieten them... rather than simply being "PC" (i.e. showing the world how "right-on" they are for the sake of it).

Pretty_Pistol

Very tough situation. It depends on the way you asked her to leave/move and if she was just being stubborn for the sake of it and not thinking of the head mourners. Did anyone else besides yourself seem to find it disruptive?

If the child was as disruptive to the service as you say I would expect the mother to know herself to have taken the child outside even just for a breather if the child seemed to be distressed.

A family member of mine has a SN child and one of the parents will stay at home with the child or get a family member/friend to babysit for funerals. It also depends on how close this woman and SN child were to the person who passed away.

It was wrong of her to confront you outside the church though. That was showing a lack of respect on her part.

newtoboards

If the child sounded like they were in distress it could have added to the distress of close family. There's nothing more difficult than a funeral and they happen so quickly she probably either didn't have time to get a sitter or felt the child also needed to pay their respects. However I commend you op for saying something as I did likewise at my own wedding when the vows were being said and also got into a bit of hot water over it with the parents of a little uninvited special needs guest doing much the same as happened at the funeral. Even though I felt I did the right thing on the day afterwards I didn't apologise but really wish I had as since hasn't been great since. It all seemed so important to take the moral high ground so to speak but the couple in question no longer speak to me as a result of what is referred to as my outburst and make a song and dance around me at other family events.

Tristram

Annon1515151 wrote: »

the kid was making really loud noises and grunts for most of the Mass..... we couldn't even hear some of the readings or what the priest was saying a lot of the time. I know she had the right to be there just like us but if that was me I would have left the church if my child was being so loud.

Obviously can't judge the level of disruption having not been there. I would say that I would expect that if a child was causing disruption at any ceremony their parent should take them to the back or outside.

Not relating to this situation but I've often been amazed at the ignorance of parents who simply sit back allowing their children to run riot at all kinds of events. Maybe more people should voice complaint and it would eventually stop.

Taltos

So let's get this right.

You were at a funeral.
Another woman also was at a funeral - and she is related to the deceased too.
Woman brought her child - who is also related - and age is undisclosed.

Child however is one of the special children (ring any bells yet).
Has a physical manifestation where they make noises - possibly grunting - continually - and uncontrollably. Nothing they, the mother or the doctors can do to lessen or stop this. However, the mother wants her child to grow up as normal as the child can be, so chooses to bring them to the funeral.
(We don't know if she tried sitters, carers or anything else that is legally available).

Next while she grieved - a relation unable to hear the reading berated her.
Wow. Great show of tolerance, christian love and understanding.
Forget about apologising - instead go to confession and let the priest know how you treated one of God's special children...

Look - personally I am not that fond of kids - especially noisey ones. However, where children/adults have a condition like this that all changes - my normal distaste and feelings of impatience go away. Just 2 or 3 years ago I was at a movie in the States - the last Batman one with a work colleague - I know - not a funeral -but similarly there was a young chap there with a similar complaint - all through the movie - he was making gutteral noises - but so what - he had as much right as me to be there and I tuned him out. However - some of his peers took it on themselves to start berating him and telling him to shut up. I was shocked - and we left that cinema thinking the worse of these "crass American teenagers" - so thanks - you have just releveled my view of the Americans I saw that day and confirmed that we Irish are just the same. Intolerant and unable to just get on with each other - no matter our differences.

This is not PC - just common decency folks and those that cannot see that everyone has a right to live and go to funerals / cinemas even if they have a condition where they make noise or "distract us" - well maybe you should think back to the 30s in mainland Europe to see how far your views want to push this society. <sigh>

Tristram

Taltos wrote: »

So let's get this right.

You were at a funeral.
Another woman also was at a funeral - and she is related to the deceased too.
Woman brought her child - who is also related - and age is undisclosed.

Child however is one of the special children (ring any bells yet).
Has a physical manifestation where they make noises - possibly grunting - continually - and uncontrollably. Nothing they, the mother or the doctors can do to lessen or stop this. However, the mother wants her child to grow up as normal as the child can be, so chooses to bring them to the funeral.
(We don't know if she tried sitters, carers or anything else that is legally available).

Next while she grieved - a relation unable to hear the reading berated her.
Wow. Great show of tolerance, christian love and understanding.
Forget about apologising - instead go to confession and let the priest know how you treated one of God's special children...

Look - personally I am not that fond of kids - especially noisey ones. However, where children/adults have a condition like this that all changes - my normal distaste and feelings of impatience go away. Just 2 or 3 years ago I was at a movie in the States - the last Batman one with a work colleague - I know - not a funeral -but similarly there was a young chap there with a similar complaint - all through the movie - he was making gutteral noises - but so what - he had as much right as me to be there and I tuned him out. However - some of his peers took it on themselves to start berating him and telling him to shut up. I was shocked - and we left that cinema thinking the worse of these "crass American teenagers" - so thanks - you have just releveled my view of the Americans I saw that day and confirmed that we Irish are just the same. Intolerant and unable to just get on with each other - no matter our differences.

This is not PC - just common decency folks and those that cannot see that everyone has a right to live and go to funerals / cinemas even if they have a condition where they make noise or "distract us" - well maybe you should think back to the 30s in mainland Europe to see how far your views want to push this society. <sigh>

Why are you rewriting the OP's post to suit your point? You don't know the details any better than the rest of us and the OP hasn't clarified them. So you had a shocking experience at a cinema in the States? Sorry to hear that.

metrovelvet

Im finding this kind of difficult to get. I understand the need for respect and protocol during a religious ceremony.

At the same time, mourning, grief is a time when we are acutely reminded of our [each other's] humanity and vulnerabilities. It is a time when life is affirmed through having lost a beloved. Surely there is room for the imperfections of life, the insistence of life at a funeral mass?

Children, special needs or not are part of our lives, part of the community and seriously, should be included. To ask them to leave a fineral mass, takes on a bigger significance, as if it to say, you dont belong here, you are not part of the community.

I remember one time after the priest said his homily, my two year old yelled out "ee I ee I owwww!". What do you want me to do? Put tape on his mouth and shut him up? Should he have been excluded from his religious community for that?

Would you have asked an elderly relative with alzheimers to leave too?

sexdwarf

OP funerals are open events, they are for everyone to attend, regardless of disability. I think you were very wrong to tell this woman to move/take out her child. Don't you think that interruption disturbed her and her child in their grief? He was hardly making these sounds for his own amusement. I am really shocked at the amount of people saying that you were dead right to say something.

Didn't you think that perhaps this woman had enough on her plate without you sticking your beak in to give out about her special needs child making some noises? Should the child be excluded and left at home for every family event, in case he makes some gutteral noises?

It's one thing to leave a screaming baby at home, they are not aware of the exclusion, but did it not cross your mind how this child would feel or that he may perfectly well understand that he is being singled out because he's different?

Cheap Thrills!

A special needs child/person is not the same as a crying baby or an undisciplined child who is being let run riot.

That SN child will likely be the exact same when they grow up, making involutary noises then too.....would it be appropriate to ask a SN adult to go out of the church merely because they were annoying you....of course not.

I think it was very off colour to approach the mother, she is probably pig sick of being treated like a nuisance wherever she goes. The child is a PERSON who had the right to be there and mourn too.

Perhaps the best way to think of it is, if the person in the coffin was able to see what was going on what would they want.....would they allow a special needs child and parent to be ostracised and stigmatised in their name....?

Unlikely.

I have no tolerance for parents who allow their kids be bratty and uncontrolled in such events but this is totally different. The noises are involuntary and the person will always be making them, thats who the child is. My mother is sick and coughs alarmingly loudly and her breathing would be disturbing to listen to...should she be excluded from a funeral because this might distract someone ??

Your right to mourn is no greater than anyone elses......I know at times of grief emotions are high but picking on this child was the wrong thing to do.

gimme5minutes

What people need to remember is that this is a funeral. You get one chance at it. It is supposed to mark a person's entire lifetime. It's just not acceptable to have it ruined for everyone because one person has to bring their SN child who they know is extremely disruptive. The OP couldn't even hear the readings it was that bad. That is a complete joke. Respect for the deceased is of utmost importance in a funeral, it outweighs the need to be accomodating to a SN child.

Think about it, if this was one of your own parents/siblings funerals, how would feel if you couldn't even hear what was going on because of someone being extremely disruptive. An emotional ceremony marking their whole lives being completely ruined...I would not be happy about that at all.

It is about the only situation I can imagine where I would have a problem with a disruptive SN child. It's not about discrimination, it's about practicality, it's not practical to bring an extremely disruptive SN child to what is the most important and sombre ceremony of all.

gimme5minutes

Taltos wrote: »

So let's get this right.

You were at a funeral.
Another woman also was at a funeral - and she is related to the deceased too.
Woman brought her child - who is also related - and age is undisclosed.

Child however is one of the special children (ring any bells yet).
Has a physical manifestation where they make noises - possibly grunting - continually - and uncontrollably. Nothing they, the mother or the doctors can do to lessen or stop this. However, the mother wants her child to grow up as normal as the child can be, so chooses to bring them to the funeral.
(We don't know if she tried sitters, carers or anything else that is legally available).

Next while she grieved - a relation unable to hear the reading berated her.
Wow. Great show of tolerance, christian love and understanding.
Forget about apologising - instead go to confession and let the priest know how you treated one of God's special children...

Look - personally I am not that fond of kids - especially noisey ones. However, where children/adults have a condition like this that all changes - my normal distaste and feelings of impatience go away. Just 2 or 3 years ago I was at a movie in the States - the last Batman one with a work colleague - I know - not a funeral -but similarly there was a young chap there with a similar complaint - all through the movie - he was making gutteral noises - but so what - he had as much right as me to be there and I tuned him out. However - some of his peers took it on themselves to start berating him and telling him to shut up. I was shocked - and we left that cinema thinking the worse of these "crass American teenagers" - so thanks - you have just releveled my view of the Americans I saw that day and confirmed that we Irish are just the same. Intolerant and unable to just get on with each other - no matter our differences.

This is not PC - just common decency folks and those that cannot see that everyone has a right to live and go to funerals / cinemas even if they have a condition where they make noise or "distract us" - well maybe you should think back to the 30s in mainland Europe to see how far your views want to push this society. <sigh>

Big difference between a Batman movie and a funeral for your parent/sibling.

sexdwarf

gimme5minutes wrote: »

What people need to remember is that this is a funeral. You get one chance at it. It is supposed to mark a person's entire lifetime. It's just not acceptable to have it ruined for everyone because one person has to bring their SN child who they know is extremely disruptive. The OP couldn't even hear the readings it was that bad. That is a complete joke. Respect for the deceased is of utmost importance in a funeral, it outweighs the need to be accomodating to a SN child.

Think about it, if this was one of your own parents/siblings funerals, how would feel if you couldn't even hear what was going on because of someone being extremely disruptive. An emotional ceremony marking their whole lives being completely ruined...I would not be happy about that at all.

It is about the only situation I can imagine where I would have a problem with a disruptive SN child. It's not about discrimination, it's about practicality, it's not practical to bring an extremely disruptive SN child to what is the most important and sombre ceremony of all.

What about respect for the living, namely the most vulnerable people in our society? This child is who he is and deserves to be treated with as much respect as anyone else. Having special needs in a church is not inherently 'disrepectful'. He is as entitled as any other person to be in that church. He was NOT being disrespectful, neither was his mother by allowing him to attend this ceremony, which as you say, is a very important one to relations - of which he is one. And from my own point of view I would have no problem with anyone bringing their special needs child to a relative's funeral. We shouldn't forget to show love and respect to our living relatives as well as the ones who have passed away.

Communicationb

We had a local priest (an old school Canon) since deceased.

If he was saying Mass and a child, baby etc was making too much noise, he would stop the Mass and walk down to the noise and ask them to leave in no uncertain terms. Highly embarrassing....but effective:o

Nobody had any problem with this as far as I could tell...in fact locals welcomed it.

While I am not a regular church goer, I do wonder sometimes about people who parade in with 4-5 young kids in tow plus maybe an infant in their arms...screaming kids for the next 45 mins (you know the type every Parish has at least 1 such family). Why do the whole family need to go at the same time. Surely the parents could split them up between Masses. But anyway...

Android 666

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Big difference between a Batman movie and a funeral for your parent/sibling.

How do you know its for a parent or sibling? She never stated that. The point that he is making is relevant. Most people would show some tolerance on the day and make an effort to tune out the SN child. The OP is the only one in the church who seems to have shown complete intolerance and asked her to leave. It would have been a stressful situation for the mother as it was without someone coming up to berate them for attending the funeral and asking them to leave. There's nothing PC about being appalled by the OP's behaviour. Its about common decency and allowing everyone to be treated equally. Maybe that's too much for some people, I don't know, but I must admit I felt a bit sickened by reading the original post.

LegacyUser

I think people tend to get very PC about these things. The majority of the group of people grieveing at a funeral of a close relative were disrupted by one SN child who is a very distant relative to the point where they were unable to even hear the priest speak at the mass - why is it fair for one child to upset sand disrupt several people? Would it not have been basic sense and manners for the mother to take her child outside until the ceremony had ended? It is not like she was asked to leave for the day just to show a bit of consideration for the grieving family. And yes I would feel the same about a screaming child or baby - if your baby is screaming loudly, and yes it is what babies do, to the point that no one could hear anything else would it not be manners to go outside and try and quiet it down? I think sometimes people with babies or SN kids think that their rights and opinions outweigh everyone elses and that is an unfair attitude. The whole group at a funeral should not have to suffer just so that the mother of the child causing the constant disruption is not offended by the suggestion that she go outside for a few minutes.

I was in a restaurant the other day and a family with a special needs woman were there. When this woman was paid attention to and included in their conversation she was fine. However when they would not pay attention to her she would grunt at the top of her voice. At one point this got so loud we could barely here and just wanted to leave. What I could not understand though was why the family were ignoring this poor woman - she was getting louder and louder and more distressed? They went from talking to her to ignoring her and did not seem to give a damn about the consequences. Why bring her to a restaurant with them to ignore her and let her get upset? The other patrons of the restaurant had paid to be there only to not be able to hear a thing because this family felt it was okay to ignore this woman and allow her to disrupt everyone else.

MagicSean

Android 666 wrote: »

How do you know its for a parent or sibling? She never stated that. The point that he is making is relevant. Most people would show some tolerance on the day and make an effort to tune out the SN child. The OP is the only one in the church who seems to have shown complete intolerance and asked her to leave. It would have been a stressful situation for the mother as it was without someone coming up to berate them for attending the funeral and asking them to leave. There's nothing PC about being appalled by the OP's behaviour. Its about common decency and allowing everyone to be treated equally. Maybe that's too much for some people, I don't know, but I must admit I felt a bit sickened by reading the original post.

So they should be treated equally but different? If it was a normal kid making noise would it be ok to ask them to leave?

sexdwarf

k_mac wrote: »

So they should be treated equally but different? If it was a normal kid making noise would it be ok to ask them to leave?

As far as I'm concerned it's not ok to ask anyone to leave. If you attend a public event that's open to all, you'll just have to accept what comes with it. The church encourages people to bring families and have their children christened as babies so they're accepting the consequences of bringing children into the church. The congregation is well aware of this and can't start demanding that certain people get out because they're 'bothering' them.

Communicationb

I dont see anything wrong with saying to someone that their child (SN needs or not) is interfering or distracting other people. In fact I think in Ireland we are far too quiet on such matters.

Asking her to leave might have been a bit OTT. She could have said that the child is very distracting, is there anything that can be done? Maybe the mother could have got the hint...but I doubt it.

Even though the OP might have been the only one who said anything, I am pretty sure othe people there would have commented and bitched behind the mother's back in that typical Irish way we have. Whether you agree or not, at least the OP said it to her face. Some parents of SN children I know tend to very Bolshie and have a "F**k You" attitude.

If it had been a regular Mass or Wedding there would have been more tolerance but if you are very upset at a funeral mass for a close friend/relative and you a have a SN child screaming next to you, I would certainly say something.

Quiet frankly, I think the parent was inconsiderate, she must have known appreciated that her child was making a lot of noise and distracting other Mass goers. But yet she brazened it out...very selfish.

sexdwarf

Communicationb wrote: »

If it had been a regular Mass or Wedding there would have been more tolerance but if you are very upset at a funeral mass for a close friend/relative and you a have a SN child screaming next to you, I would certainly say something.

In fairness the OP never said that the child was screaming

LegacyUser

I think people are being way too pc on this one. I have a special needs godson and we would never dream of not bringing him to occasions such as these but you have to think of the people around when you're at a funeral. What about the mother?, if she knows this is how the child will react in this situation she should have made some effort to move away from the front to allow fellow mourners to grieve. Yes it doesn't seem fair but at a funeral I think accommodations should be made. To be honest I don't the question of whether you were right or wrong will ever be answered.

Android 666

sexdwarf wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned it's not ok to ask anyone to leave. If you attend a public event that's open to all, you'll just have to accept what comes with it. The church encourages people to bring families and have their children christened as babies so they're accepting the consequences of bringing children into the church. The congregation is well aware of this and can't start demanding that certain people get out because they're 'bothering' them.

I don't think know. I think I've seen the light since reading k_mac's post. We should exclude special needs children from all funerals. Actually wait, we should exclude all children (What was I thinking?!). Also I think we should exclude old people too because sometimes they can be a bit shaky and its very distracting and they can be very slow going to communion (also its not very PC to say this but sometimes they smell as well). Fat people as well should be excluded because God knows how uncomfortable it can be sitting beside one of them. Tall people should be kept out because sometimes they can block your view of the pulpit. Once all that is taken care of, I think we'll be able to grieve in comfort.

Red Alert

To begin with, bold children are different, I have no tolerance for them (or their parents for that matter). I regularly encounter spoiled brats and unsuitable spineless parents who are afraid to discipline their children and who have no regard for the rest of society in the gym I go to. However, there's no similarity here.

This kid (or adult, we don't know) is disabled, he could be frightened in an unfamiliar surrounding like a strange church, to him his behavior is normal. It's as normal as you or I yawning or sighing. His mum sounds like a really great woman: she's devoting a large part of her life to caring for him and making him feel a part of society. A normal part of that is to go to funerals, weddings etc. of his own family. It certainly can't be easy for her because I'm sure she knows people notice him. And I think you were really out of line asking her to make him leave. People with special needs have feelings, can you imagine what he'd have felt like if he'd had to leave? His mum having to say that he wasn't good enough to be in a church? If you're so concerned about the atmosphere he was disturbing in the church, why not think about the following line from scripture: "What you do to the least of these, you do to me".

A priest who I've the greatest of respect for, who has many times spoken out about the church's behavior at mass, one time brought up the issue of people with special needs. He said he is delighted when he sees anyone with special needs at mass, in a church or out enjoying themselves as best they can in society. Because, he said, we have finally come out of the horrible era of people who were intellectually disabled being locked up and out of circulation. Does your attitude promote this?

And just a question for the OP: How would you have treated somebody else, like an older member of the family who had developed something like dementia in old age? Would you similarly ask them to leave to give silence?

Android 666

sunflower27 wrote: »

I agree, well said.

Also wholeheartedly agree. The most eloquent post on the matter so far.

Communicationb

sexdwarf wrote: »

In fairness the OP never said that the child was screaming

Ok..making load noises and grunts...sorry.