pay rates

liveandnetural

hi guys has anybody any info on whats happining with the electrical pay rates i belive that there is a serious challange in the high court in relation to the rea and there is a major possiblity of the rea being caneled i have being looking at the teeu and the aeci website but not much info on there but the neci site says its comming down anyone know more?????

i know the irish sparks rates are the highest in europe but in these troubled times i am borrowed to the max .if the rea falls will we go on mimium wage??????

StupidLikeAFox

The challenge in the High Court was due on 26th of March but it was adjourned til May I think. Doubt you will head straight down to minimum wage but there will definitely be a drop in wages I would imagine, probably to around the same levels as industrial electricians (15 to 20 euro p/hour)

liveandnetural

the case's are back in the high court on may 20 if anyone is interested

2011

ColHol wrote: »

..... I would imagine, probably to around the same levels as industrial electricians (15 to 20 euro p/hour)

In my experience industrial electricians were always paid better than domestic electricians. Perhaps this has changed now. I would have thought that industrial electricians would not have had an houly rate of as little as €15 in the 10 years.

liveandnetural

under the terms of the current registered employment agreement any qualified electrician cannot be paid any less than 20.74/hours +travel and subsistence
there is a compulsory pension deduction as well 22.88 per week cwps
the 07 rates below are the current ones


Wage Rates
The following are the wage rates in the Electrical Contracting Industry:


1st yr out of time

€20.74

1 yrs service

€21.01

2 yrs service
€21.15
3 yrs service
€21.26
4 yrs service
€21.38
5 yrs service
€21.49
Subsistence

€168.26

http://www.epace.ie/payrate.htm

lynchysparks

what are the rates in northen ireland ???? are they the same as south

2011

lynchysparks wrote: »

what are the rates in northen ireland ???? are they the same as south

that depends on the exchange rate. As far as I know in general rates are lower, but so is the cost of living up there.

Hoagy

lynchysparks wrote: »

what are the rates in northen ireland ???? are they the same as south

UK Pay rates are here

liveandnetural

hollie mollie thats some difference in the pay rates in ireland and uk that explains why theres so many northern contractors in dublin at the moment

liveandnetural

just a follow up on the case it is back in the high court on the 20 of may
i have been talking with a large sized dublin contractor and he says that the word in the trade associations is the Rea is going to be canceled as the aeci and eca no longer support it and that basic hourly rate will be 14 euro per hour with a new grading system in place

.G.

liveandnetural wrote: »

just a follow up on the case it is back in the high court on the 20 of may
i have been talking with a large sized dublin contractor and he says that the word in the trade associations is the Rea is going to be canceled as the aeci and eca no longer support it and that basic hourly rate will be 14 euro per hour with a new grading system in place

Which is probably what the employers want but dosen't mean they'll get it.If the REA is cancelled a new,more representative one will have to be negotiated involving all parties with an interest in it so figures being quoted by contractors mean nothing right now IMO.In the middle of a recession is perfect timing for contractors to negotiate a new one as many people will except cuts just to be working

It will be interesting to see if it's cancelled and it does appear to be illegal given the absence of negotiating license's for those who came up with it ,however if it is it will have major repercussions,not just for sparks but for any industry currently governed by a REA or JLC deal and the judge may very well have one eye on that fact.if it is cancelled there would be chaos,who decides on what Sparks and apprentices get paid the following week etc.I would hope the judge would say the current agreement stands until such a time as a new more realistic one is negotiated although if thats even legally possible for him to do I have no idea

liveandnetural

the court decisions on the faith of the rea are delayed again until 30 June

ginger 1

liveandnetural wrote: »

under the terms of the current registered employment agreement any qualified electrician cannot be paid any less than 20.74/hours +travel and subsistence
there is a compulsory pension deduction as well 22.88 per week cwps
the 07 rates below are the current ones


Wage Rates
The following are the wage rates in the Electrical Contracting Industry:


1st yr out of time

€20.74

1 yrs service

€21.01

2 yrs service
€21.15
3 yrs service
€21.26
4 yrs service
€21.38
5 yrs service
€21.49
Subsistence

€168.26

http://www.epace.ie/payrate.htm

At long last there's a new pension,mortality and sick pay scheme availible that was launched a few weeks ago that's complient with the r.e.a with far better benifits and a lot cheaper too. It works on 6.2% of your gross weekly wage. So if you only work 15 hours, you only contribute for your 15 hours worked!Plus €200k life cover,€200 a week benifit for over two years if out sick.It is fully approved by revenue and pensions board and is setting a proper industry standard.

All info is at www.neci.ie

liveandnetural

in reply to the ginger1 i think its the neci that are trying to reduce the rate ....even tho i think the cif are trying to reduce it as well what about us poor souls the borrowed on the strength of our earnings and are locked in mortgages for the next twenty five years



and who are the neci how can they provide a sick pay and pension

Offy

1st yr out of time is more than I earned as an engineer in the electrical industry college was fun but not worth it financially!

liveandnetural wrote: »

under the terms of the current registered employment agreement any qualified electrician cannot be paid any less than 20.74/hours +travel and subsistence
there is a compulsory pension deduction as well 22.88 per week cwps
the 07 rates below are the current ones


Wage Rates
The following are the wage rates in the Electrical Contracting Industry:


1st yr out of time

€20.74

1 yrs service

€21.01

2 yrs service
€21.15
3 yrs service
€21.26
4 yrs service
€21.38
5 yrs service
€21.49
Subsistence

€168.26

http://www.epace.ie/payrate.htm

ginger 1

Liveandnetural, they are the national electrical contractors of Ireland and are fighting to stop the r.e.a as it was agreed and vairied by a small amount of people for the intire industry.

The neci requested a pension,mortality and sick pay scheme that was compliant with r.e.a. insurance underwriters got together and built it for the electrical industry.It took a year to do, I guess neci had enough of epace and the likes.

.G.

they are an employers group fighting for employers rights which is why the are trying to crush the REA and have now wheeled out this employer friendly pension.

You say that you only contribute for the hours worked well that only benefits one person and it isn't the employee.Why would any employee want to see their own and their employers contribution to THEIR pension reduced?Very few I'd imagine since it means a smaller fund for them when they retire

I find it funny you come on here saying they made their pension compliant with the REA when some of their founding members and probably most of their membership are not and never have been compliant with the same REA they claim is forcing them out of business.

I'm sure they have had enough of EPACE telling them they were breaking the law and hauling their arse's into court for it.

2011

To be fair if you work 20 hours you only get 20 hours of contributions. But if you work 60 hours you get 60 hours of contributions. Look at the current climate, is this really that unfair?



In addition this pension is accepted by the Revenue Commissioners and is fully regulated by the Pensions Board.

ginger 1

superg
In the other exsisting pension scheme, after 40 years payments you will have a fund of €50k. Which will give a max of €3,546 yearly pension without taking a lumpsum when you retire at 65.

Do you know what the allocation rate is for that pension fund. What I mean is the % of what someones contribution in cash goes into their fund ?

Neci's is 97% which is a very good rate.If the same contribution made to the exsisting scheme was instead placed in a deposit account the fund would total €114k.

If you cut the contributions by half (or hours) into any other pension provider, the fund is still more at retirement than the other exsisting scheme.This will give you a good indication as to what is going on behind the scenes and what fund would be better in the long run.Not to mention the difference in the the benefits.

So it's employer and employee freindly.Plus it helps to keep costs down thus keeping employee's in jobs. Which is not a laughing mater.

Epace are just a limited co. with no statatory powers whatsoever.
They also take a % of ee's and er's contribution without their consent and this not part of the R.E.A.

.G.

ginger 1 wrote: »

superg
In the other exsisting pension scheme, after 40 years payments you will have a fund of €50k. Which will give a max of €3,546 yearly pension without taking a lumpsum when you retire at 65.

Do you know what the allocation rate is for that pension fund. What I mean is the % of what someones contribution in cash goes into their fund ?

Neci's is 97% which is a very good rate.If the same contribution made to the exsisting scheme was instead placed in a deposit account the fund would total €114k.

If you cut the contributions by half (or hours) into any other pension provider, the fund is still more at retirement than the other exsisting scheme.This will give you a good indication as to what is going on behind the scenes and what fund would be better in the long run.Not to mention the difference in the the benefits.

So it's employer and employee freindly.Plus it helps to keep costs down thus keeping employee's in jobs. Which is not a laughing mater.

Epace are just a limited co. with no statatory powers whatsoever.
They also take a % of ee's and er's contribution without their consent and this not part of the R.E.A.

Not from me as I and all my colleagues gave EPACE our full consent in writing

Not arguing about the fact the other pension is pretty pathetic but forgive me for not enthusiastically welcoming anything the NECI brings to the table when their website clearly trumpets this pension for its cost savings to employers not its benefits to employees. Since they arrived on the scene they have been instrumental in causing industrial unrest and are committed to destroying everything good that the current REA gives to employees all in the name of "fairness to their members who have no input" despite the very real fact that some if not all of the founding members never were fully compliant with the REA in the first place and all of them knew of its existence when they came into this business.I find it rich them moaning about something they never complied with in the first instance.

Anyway I've been down this road before regarding the NECI on this website and for the record I think they should be a part of a renegotiation of the current REA so I'll just say each to their own,if you like it good for you,maybe come June 30th we can all organise our own pension,I'll be in the high court myself to find out if thats the case.

ginger 1

If they haven't been compliant the rea, they should back pay for their employee's
I have no evidence to whether or not they are or aren't compliant. So it's not for me to comment on.

In the Castle and flood report commisioned by the Tainiste last year one of the biggest flaws in the rea was the lack of awareness of it in the construction and electrical industries.There recommendations are interesting.

but, yes each to their own if that's what will be. I was just making the point that the scheme neci have built can not be got anywhere in one package on the Irish market.

.G.

High court has dismissed the legal challenge.Now they can pay us the back pay the owe us all.They must be able to afford it if they can afford lengthy legal challenges to the labour laws of this country

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0630/electricians.html

liveandnetural

good stuff will that now mean the pay increase that was due last April will be payed (will it be back paid????)
is the country money and subsistence still the same the aeci were trying to change both of them i believe
also aren't the CIF shouting about a pay reduction of 20%

.G.

it means everything stays at 2007 levels which was the last time employers coughed up on agreed pay raises.There have been 2 more since then so it remains to be seen what happens regards that.To be honest I couldnt care less about getting those increases I'm just well chuffed that the agreement has been upheld.

liveandnetural

me to superg it would done a lot of harm to the industry if the rea was removed

.G.

liveandnetural wrote: »

me to superg it would done a lot of harm to the industry if the rea was removed

Make no mistake it was a far bigger issue than just our industry. if our REA had fallen it would have caused industrial chaos for hundreds of thousands of those workers who have their own pay and conditions decreed by similar agreements which would then have been open to challenge on the same basis if indeed they weren't instantly ignored due to ours being proved illegal.

Be interesting to see if the NECI pursue this further as they can still take a legal challenge to the constitutionality of the REA if they so wish.I would imagine that the decision will be based on whether they can afford another lengthy legal case having had to pay for this one and ending up with nothing to show for it.Presumably given the absence of any statement about the ruling on their website which is usually updated very quickly on all matters that interest their members they must still be weighing up their options.

liveandnetural

ok here a new one the boss called as into the office last week and said he needs to cut his labor costs .he tough the rea rate was going to be canceled in the high court but as we now know it wasn't
now his plan is to pays us for four days and we work one day for free????is this legit can he put this in place and insist we take it??/

.G.

He can definitely put you on a 4 day week if he wants but what you do on your day off is up to you.IMO this sort thing is likely to be widespread.You aren't allowed to reduce your wages even if you agree to it but If the employee agrees to work for free then I don't know if that is against the REA.If you are working for free you will still be classed as working by the social welfare so won't get paid by them for the final day.Sadly it is something that an individual can't fight against as you will just be replaced by someone more compliant.If it is to be defeated you and all your colleagues need to stand together against it.

Are you in a union?

2011

now his plan is to pays us for four days and we work one day for free????is this legit can he put this in place and insist we take it??/

No way!

Stoner

Lads, just a quick point. I've been keeping an eye on this thread, it has the potential to develop into a discussion that is over and above the scope of this forum.

Employment rights issues are discussed on boards there is no problem with that, but they are located in particular threads with more aptly informed mods than we have here.

Originally this forum was under the DIY banner, established to help users with electrical questions, it has expanded a little and material like apprenticeships etc is discussed here now, but please keep the scope of the forum in mind before posting, your views might be better aired and supported on boards in a more suitable forum.

Thank you all, happy posting.

liveandnetural

thanks stoner any suggestion on where to move it to cuz it has being implemented

radical

liveandnetural wrote: »

ok here a new one the boss called as into the office last week and said he needs to cut his labor costs .he tough the rea rate was going to be canceled in the high court but as we now know it wasn't
now his plan is to pays us for four days and we work one day for free????is this legit can he put this in place and insist we take it??/

i am an unemployed spark and i was working 5 days and getting paid for 4. i did it for a few months until my boss went bust. that was back in dec09. if i stil had a job with him i would still work the 5 for the price of 4. iv been at home now for 7months and its hard knowing that there is no work around. stick tight with your employers guys cuz there is **** all work out there.
u really only see this after u lose your job. when i was working away in 2009 i thought "sher there will surely be something out there if i lose my job". well there a'int so keep the head down because if you dont i will be waiting for you to leave over sour grapes with your 4 day pay and i will happily take it!!! good luck

Stoner

liveandnetural wrote: »

thanks stoner any suggestion on where to move it to cuz it has being implemented

Here!!!

I checked with the CMODs first. Thanks all.

Electricman999

“Fatal Blow To Seal REA’s Fate”.
The National Electrical Contractors Of Ireland (NECI) today welcomes the outcome of the recent Ballot carried out by Association Of Electrical Contractors of Ireland, where their members have overwhelmingly voted in favour to remove AECI from the Registered Employment Agreement in the Electrical Contracting Industry.

The AECI has informed the other parties to the REA as well as the National Joint Industrial Council (NJIC) for the industry of the outcome of their members’ ballot issuing notice of their intent to the Chairman Of The Labour Court for their removal from the Registered Employment Agreement.

NECI believes this mandate has delivered the Fatal Blow to the mechanism which has maintained terms and conditions and wage rates in the industry at unrealistically high levels. This has restricted direct employment and forced employers out of business resulting in employees going onto the dole or becoming sub-contractors.

At a time when all other sectors implemented restructuring and pay cuts to regain competiveness, the Electrical Registered Employment Agreement maintained wages at a grossly inflated level which had been awarded to electricians during the ‘tiger era’. The unions’ inaction and insulting mantra, “What We Have We Hold,” over a long number of years, did nothing for job creation or for competiveness within the sector. Instead of tackling the issues of the day they seemed to instead be more focused on occupying and enjoying highly paid positions of power on state boards, as was the order of the day.

This extremely controversial REA was entered into the Register of Employment Agreements on 24 September 1990. It has been the subject of a number of legal cases over the last number of years.

The whole legality of this REA’s very existence and it registration remains legally questionable.

NECI and the Unaligned Group sought an order from the court under s.29(2) of the 1946 Industrial Relations Act, to cancel the registration of the REA in its entirety. This application was made by the NECI and the Unaligned Group and opposed by the TEEU, the ECA and the AECI.
The court applied a three-part test, set out in s.29(2) of the 1946 Act. It decided that all three parts of the test must apply before a decision can be made as to whether the registration of the REA should be cancelled:

• The court must be satisfied that there have been changes in the circumstances of the electrical contracting industry since 1990;

• The court must be satisfied that any such changes are substantial;

• The court must conclude that any such substantial changes make it undesirable to maintain the registration of the REA.

The court concluded that the sector has experienced substantial change since the REA was
registered. However, the court concluded that those changes had not made it undesirable to maintain
registration of the REA. Accordingly, the court rejected the application to cancel the registration of the
REA.

NECI is now calling for the immediate cancellation of the Registered Employment Agreement in the electrical contracting industry as there is no question that this new development has categorically satisfied the three-part test, set out in s.29(2) of the 1946 Act. This new development means that only the TEEU and the ECA (an English trade association affiliated to the CIF, with an estimated 40 electrical contractors as members) are now the remaining parties to the agreement. The majority of electrical contractors are now definitely opposed to this agreement. The minority can no longer dictate the terms for the majority.

NECI believes the cancellation of the REA will achieve a more positive industry where direct employment will immediately reoccur instead of the subcontractor culture which this REA promoted. This will result in better quality and standards for the customer and increased revenue for the state and a reduction of the black market contractors which continues to grow in this sector.