Intern/NCHD average pay and EWTD

chanste

Hi folks,

There is always plenty of people telling us in this forum how Doctors are not being paid for all the hours they do and that there is some variance depending on where you work. I am just curious though as to how much Interns and NCHDs are actually getting paid at the moment.

Things I'm concerned about as a current med student are the massive loan I've taken out and the EWTD which would limit me to 48 hours and thus the salary of a bus driver (No offence to bus drivers meant, but considering the investment, training and responsibility - I want more money; if only so I can repay the loan).

So anyone wanna spill the beans? The IMO website has scales up, but it is still difficult to work out what impact all the little things would have on your final paycheque.

If the EWTD is supposed to protect the employee, can i opt out?

sam34

to be perfectly honest, i dont think anyone will post up their take home pay for all the world to see

you cant opt out of the EWTD, it is law

hospitals can be fined if they dont adhere to it

Don Keypunch

I know a first year SPR in Pathology who top line is €1600 p/w

sam34

Don Keypunch wrote: »

I know a first year SPR in Pathology who top line is €1600 p/w

sorry, but they're spinning you a yarn, as far as i can see

i'm a fourth year psych SpR (payscales are the same irrespective of specialty) so i would be on more than that person

i dont know what exactly you mean by "topline" ie whether you mean gross or net pay

if its gross pay, 1600 per week means per fortnight their gross pay is 3200 (hse staff get paid fortnightly)

now, my gross pay is nowhere near that, and im on more than this person

if you mean net pay - see above.

i presume we're excluding overtime, as that is variable and unpredictable

in any event, an spr would need to be doing a hell of a lot of overtime to earn 1600 weekly, net or gross

Narkius Maximus

sam34 wrote: »

to be perfectly honest, i dont think anyone will post up their take home pay for all the world to see

you cant opt out of the EWTD, it is law

hospitals can be fined if they dont adhere to it

Don't think Ireland allowed the opt out clause of EWTD. The UK did, but only allows you work up to 56hrs, and the rest breaks must still be enforced.

It is likely that the HSE/Manpower will be unable to actually make EWTD work here without closing hospitals/departments and amalgamating NCHDs into larger hospitals.

I'm only speaking from my own area-Surgery, but at current staff levels, and predicted reductions in numbers applying for BST, we will actually probably be working more hours than previously. I know this contravenes the 'Law' but to be honest the EWTD is unworkable and was only implemented by the HSE to save money, not for our benefit. We could actually force the situatio by demanding that it be implemented for us as individuals and refuse to work anything over and above. This is pretty radical but it is the law. A friend in Naas actually calculated that in the 3months up to March she had acually worked her quota for 6months. If she demanded to enforce the EWTD she would not need to work for the final 3months of her contract. This is the norm, most likely even favourable compared to others around the country. At the High Court case in Feb, the judge apparently stated that if there was no agreement and the IMO demanded full immediate implementation of EWTD then he would be forced into an impossibe position of having to close all hospitals.

Brings us on to another issue-withholding of pay by finace/manpower. Brought up at IMO AGM, seems it's going to be the next confrontation point. I really don't know how the HSE are managing to retain any docs at the moment if they continue this malarky. Unfortunately I'm tied for the next year or so until PhD completed but if things don't improve I'm looking for sunnier climes. Days of civil duty and wanting to repay investments are done.

We are duty bound to our patients, the HSE is not, ergo shaft and blame and scapegoat NCHDs when thing go awry.

imported_guy

chanste wrote: »

Hi folks,

There is always plenty of people telling us in this forum how Doctors are not being paid for all the hours they do and that there is some variance depending on where you work. I am just curious though as to how much Interns and NCHDs are actually getting paid at the moment.

Things I'm concerned about as a current med student are the massive loan I've taken out and the EWTD which would limit me to 48 hours and thus the salary of a bus driver (No offence to bus drivers meant, but considering the investment, training and responsibility - I want more money; if only so I can repay the loan).

So anyone wanna spill the beans? The IMO website has scales up, but it is still difficult to work out what impact all the little things would have on your final paycheque.

If the EWTD is supposed to protect the employee, can i opt out?

pay =

In the Health Services, hospital doctors are paid on a scale: intern €31,408; house officer €36,396– €51,595; registrar €47,613–€56,907. In the NHS a House officer will earn a basic salary of between circa £20,000– £23,000, Senior house officer between £25,000– £35,000 and a specialist registrar between £28,000– £43,000.

source http://gradireland.com/medical/articleview.aspx?aid=508

this obviously excludes over-time/night/weekends etc

in other countries such as america for example, you earn less during residency, while you work more hours (you're allowed to work 80 hours per week on accredited programmes, averaged over 4 weeks, so sometimes you might work more, and also more competetive programmes pay less salary while less competitve pay more salary during residency, (the pay 30-60k usually, depending on which state and competitiveness of the salary less competetive specialities are offered more salary to attract more applicants), to get an idea of how much you can get paid after a residency programme you can look here http://merritthawkins.com/, some jobs offer help with paying off loans (but this is all post-speciality training)

Don Keypunch

http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/junior-doctor-pockets-more-than-8364100000-in-overtime-1634065.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/junior-doctors-to-accept-new-contracts-2030131.html

http://www.thepost.ie/story/text/eyaueyqlkf/

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/junior-doctors-are-not-aampe-problem-98797.html

sam34

ah yes, the hse pr machine always churns out the example of a handful of doctors who make mega money in overtime

they fail to mention the illegal, inhumane and dangerous hours that the doctor would have had to work to earn that money

they never say that the patients in that doctors care were undoubtedly in danger because teh doctor was exhausted when looking after them

i know of nobody who earned 100k or anything like it in overtime, ever

once in my working life have i earned over 100k (total basic + overtime, not just overtime) and that was when i worked a 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 in-house call

nesf

sam34 wrote: »

once in my working life have i earned over 100k (total basic + overtime, not just overtime) and that was when i worked a 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 in-house call

What exactly does a "1 in 3 and 1 in 4 in-house call" entail?

Vorsprung

It means doing your day job,working that evening, that night, and then carrying out your day job as usual the next day. It means you have to stay in the hospital itself, and potentially (and quite often) going without sleep. And as it suggests you do that every 3 or 4 days. When you're rosteres for a Saturday, you would start at 8am and work through until 8am Sunday morning.

sam34

nesf wrote: »

What exactly does a "1 in 3 and 1 in 4 in-house call" entail?

as vorsprung said

so basically, on a 1 in 3, you go into work for 9 monday morning and you work through til 5pm on tuesday. you then get a whopping 16 hours until you are back in again at 9am wednesday, work til 5 and then back in again thursday at 9 until friday at 4pm.

very conducive to patient safety, as well as your own healh, wellbeing and a personal life :rolleyes:

Narkius Maximus

sam34 wrote: »

as vorsprung said

so basically, on a 1 in 3, you go into work for 9 monday morning and you work through til 5pm on tuesday. you then get a whopping 16 hours until you are back in again at 9am wednesday, work til 5 and then back in again thursday at 9 until friday at 4pm.

very conducive to patient safety, as well as your own healh, wellbeing and a personal life :rolleyes:

Or roughly 100-110hrs work, working call monday, thursday, sunday through to monday eve. Problem is it's not just a week but months on end-it's physically, psychologically and emotionally exhausting.

You learn to hack it short term but I've no doubt it physically harms you as Sam said.

chanste

I'm thinking that when I graduate I will have to pay near €2000 per month off my med loan for the next 5 years (The thought of asking them to extend period of repayment is awful), and was wondering how other people manage. I mean even living in the most basic accommodation and having no life and minimal expenses make this seem impossible. I'm thinking I'd need about €700-€800 per week AFTER deductions. Is this realistic early on in a doctors career bearing in mind the fact that as the years come in people are taking home less and less of their actual salary?

On one hand the idea of doing lots of overtime to pay the bills kinda sucks... but on the other hand I don't think I'd mind doing a bit more than the 48 hours allocated by the EWTD; probably wouldn't be a bad thing for the amount of exposure and experience I get anyway.

sam34

chanste wrote: »

I'm thinking that when I graduate I will have to pay near €2000 per month off my med loan for the next 5 years (The thought of asking them to extend period of repayment is awful), and was wondering how other people manage. I mean even living in the most basic accommodation and having no life and minimal expenses make this seem impossible. I'm thinking I'd need about €700-€800 per week AFTER deductions. Is this realistic early on in a doctors career bearing in mind the fact that as the years come in people are taking home less and less of their actual salary?

On one hand the idea of doing lots of overtime to pay the bills kinda sucks... but on the other hand I don't think I'd mind doing a bit more than the 48 hours allocated by the EWTD; probably wouldn't be a bad thing for the amount of exposure and experience I get anyway.

you won't have this option

ewtd is the law - individuals cant choose to opt out of it

if the hospital is non-compliant, they can face heavy fines

docbroc

chanste wrote: »

I'm thinking that when I graduate I will have to pay near €2000 per month off my med loan for the next 5 years (The thought of asking them to extend period of repayment is awful), and was wondering how other people manage. I mean even living in the most basic accommodation and having no life and minimal expenses make this seem impossible. I'm thinking I'd need about €700-€800 per week AFTER deductions. Is this realistic early on in a doctors career bearing in mind the fact that as the years come in people are taking home less and less of their actual salary?

On one hand the idea of doing lots of overtime to pay the bills kinda sucks... but on the other hand I don't think I'd mind doing a bit more than the 48 hours allocated by the EWTD; probably wouldn't be a bad thing for the amount of exposure and experience I get anyway.

I think you are in trouble. I know my intern takes home 2,200- 2,400 a month (including overtime) net salary.If she does more calls they tend not to appear in her paypacket. Interns dont get paid any overtime during the days anymore and their nighttime overtime is written off against the day off they get post call. So your looking at about 10 hours OT per week in exchange for loosing a nights sleep and a wrecked day post call. Thats assuming you are allowed take the next day off which a lot of teams dont allow - so you work for free.Starting salary is 33,000. You can reckon on working 10 - 15 hours per week for free depending on how busy your job is and what your consultant is like. EWTD is money saving , slave labour extracting spin, it is not an issue in any hospital. There isnt a single hospital in this country where the average hours for all the docs are less than 60 per week.

Jane5

Listen,
If you work the day after on call for free, you are a moron.

Yes, your team may want you to, and you may do it. However, do the following:

1) Keep photocopies of your timesheet, after you have filled in all the hours, and after you and your consultant have signed it. Do this every month.

2) Check your payslip, every month. Work out how many hours you were paid for.

3) When/if you find a discrepancy, call up Salaries and ask for your relevant person. Make sure you ask their name at the start of the conversation, and repeat it back to them. Ask them to explain the discrepancy. If they cannot to your satisfaction, call medical HR. Repeat step 3 above.

4) When you have finished the above, if you have not been issued a cheque for the amount missing (Payroll can actually do this, and readjust your payslip and tax the month after, though they won't without a MASSIVE fight), call the IMO straight away. Lodge a complaint with them, mentioning the names of the people you talked to in Salaries and HR.

5) If they do not give a clear indication that they will help you resolve the matter promptly, consult a solicitor. If anyone needs one, PM me, I know several good ones, one of whom specialises in employment law. The solicitor will make sure you get paid your money back, and although it NEVER goes to court, EVER, as the hospital know they are in the wrong, the hospital would have to pay your costs if it did.

All of the above aside, the new (crap) contract we have states that you will only be paid an average of your hours over a certain period. However, you should continue to log all your hours onto your timesheet, keep copies of the signed ones, work out your average yourself, and follow the above guidelines for any discrepancies in pay. In particular, your annual leave should not affect your average, and this is something to watch out for.

dissed doc

chanste wrote: »

On one hand the idea of doing lots of overtime to pay the bills kinda sucks... but on the other hand I don't think I'd mind doing a bit more than the 48 hours allocated by the EWTD; probably wouldn't be a bad thing for the amount of exposure and experience I get anyway.

,

UK allows you to opt out of EWTD and also allows you to work through your own limited company and thus can pick and choose a few months here or there to work for high income, lower tax.

In Ireland, the government has actively prevented this to create a socialist healthcare workforce, when everyone else is able to be private contractors as they please. No limited companies, insistence on state pension schemes, high taxes, no short term employment, no market economy.

My advice is to get out while you can. Ireland is an immature healthcare system, currently solely focussed on locking in as many people as possible to be state dependent (either through unemployment or employment).

dissed doc

sam34 wrote: »

you won't have this option

ewtd is the law - individuals cant choose to opt out of it

if the hospital is non-compliant, they can face heavy fines

Actually one of the main aspects of the EWTD is that you can opt out of the 48hr limit imposed on employers by the EWTD. Essentially, you cannot be forced against your will to work over 48hrs - it's an employee protection process.

But, if you want to make extra money, you can issue, individually and in writing, that you opt-out of the 48hr limit. From then, you can claim all hours worked, within the law (and within the EWTD which allows you to do this), and any non payment is a breach of numerous employment acts.

Don't believe the guff about EWTD being "the law" as in - it's 48hrs or nothing. The EWTD allows for any type of employment, and you can opt out, to do 100hr weeks, but your employer cannot make you. It's pure HSE and IMO bull****ology spin and the IMO, by preventing it's introduction, actually has harmed NCHDs who could benefit from working 70hr weeks now under it's protection and being paid for it.

Crucially, your employer (the HSE) cannot force you to cancel your opt out. The IMO, like all the other unions in Ireland, are spnning lines of crap at members and the result is NCHDs working 70hr weeks still and being paid for 48hrs.

Write an EWTD opt out instruction so that it is official that you are working > 48hrs/week.
Submit all signed hour timesheets
Get paid
When salary is not equal to timesheets = breach of employment law.

sam34

dissed doc wrote: »

Actually one of the main aspects of the EWTD is that you can opt out of the 48hr limit imposed on employers by the EWTD. Essentially, you cannot be forced against your will to work over 48hrs - it's an employee protection process.

But, if you want to make extra money, you can issue, individually and in writing, that you opt-out of the 48hr limit. From then, you can claim all hours worked, within the law (and within the EWTD which allows you to do this), and any non payment is a breach of numerous employment acts.

Don't believe the guff about EWTD being "the law" as in - it's 48hrs or nothing. The EWTD allows for any type of employment, and you can opt out, to do 100hr weeks, but your employer cannot make you. It's pure HSE and IMO bull****ology spin and the IMO, by preventing it's introduction, actually has harmed NCHDs who could benefit from working 70hr weeks now under it's protection and being paid for it.

Crucially, your employer (the HSE) cannot force you to cancel your opt out. The IMO, like all the other unions in Ireland, are spnning lines of crap at members and the result is NCHDs working 70hr weeks still and being paid for 48hrs.

Write an EWTD opt out instruction so that it is official that you are working > 48hrs/week.
Submit all signed hour timesheets
Get paid
When salary is not equal to timesheets = breach of employment law.

:eek: complete news to me, i had no idea about any of that

i thought it was a "48 hrs or bust" kinda thing

SomeDose

sam34 wrote: »

:eek: complete news to me, i had no idea about any of that

i thought it was a "48 hrs or bust" kinda thing

Although I'm not a medic, I think dissed doc is correct on this. Myself and colleagues had similar EWTD issues relating to having to work after doing on-call and did a bit of research into it...I definitely remember seeing the clause about opting out. There's also a few cases that have gone through the ECJ (which found favour of the docs)...have a google for the SIMAP ruling and Jaeger Judgements.

dissed doc

sam34 wrote: »

:eek: complete news to me, i had no idea about any of that

i thought it was a "48 hrs or bust" kinda thing

Check the way the UK have implemented - it's the law so I can't see it as being any different. Most UK locum agencies including NHS ones have the specific written option for you to opt-out of EWTD legislation when you apply.

There are different parts for different types of doctors. I think part of the push to get every NCHD on the Trainee Reigster was that they may be prevented from opting out. In the UK, it is staff grades, trust grades, etc., that can opt out as they please.

I don't know who has the details for Ireland, but I imagine the following

1. Total collusion between IMO and HSE in limiting working weeks to 48hrs paid work
2. Continuing of previous unsafe work practices by having people still work over the 48hrs, unofficially, and therefore without any legal protection.

You can opt out in the UK but may be still bound by rest break requirements. The EWTD is to stop employees being *forced* to work over 48hrs. If you do, and haven't opt-ed out and thye aren't paying you, you may lose whatever legal protections you have.

ORLY?

chanste wrote: »

I'm thinking that when I graduate I will have to pay near €2000 per month off my med loan for the next 5 years (The thought of asking them to extend period of repayment is awful.

Who is your loan with? Have they discussed the repayment schedule already? The bank won't be unflexible when it comes to organising the schedule, you'll meet them when you start working and they'll go through your earnings and discuss options. As long as the money is coming back to them they're not overly concerned about how long it takes although I understand that you might be concerned about it. In fact the longer the repayment is spread out over, the more they will make.

I'm going to be aiming for repayments of 1k a month, yes it will take longer and cost a bit more, about 7/8k in the long run, but it will mean less of a monthly burden and less stress.

Narkius Maximus

sam34 wrote: »

you won't have this option

ewtd is the law - individuals cant choose to opt out of it

if the hospital is non-compliant, they can face heavy fines

If this is the case, and I'm agreeing with you, every hospital is going to get a huge kick in the rear. As it stands, in surgery, 44 SHO positions are unfilled at present.
http://www.imn.ie/index.php/current-issue/news/3400-surgeon-shortage-within-the-decade

Come July, this is going to get worse. The Mater, Vincents, James's , Beaumount are all struggling to recruit. In James's, 4 BST positions, out of 7, are unfilled-have a look at the vacancy pages on their websites. If these, 'prestigous' institutions can't get staff, what the hell is going to happen to the rest of the country.
At higher levels it's not so bad, but if regs/SpRs end up trying to fill the gaps, the system will grind to a halt.


If the hospitals maintain their idiotic stances on pay etc, the rest are going to leave. Incentives, new recruitment policies etc will have to need to be initiated to stem the haemorrhage.

Vorsprung

The HSE aren't the only ones to blame for this. RCSI made the BST into a 3 year scheme and increased the annual fee by 50%. I know a couple of people who were thinking about surgery until they heard about this.

Narkius Maximus

I completely agree with you Vorsprung. The money grabbing, power mad twits in the RCSI have no idea of the S*^t storm that is heading their way.

Vorsprung

The payroll system in Queensland has been changed recently and it has all gone a bit pear shaped.

Got this mail yesterday (my Queensland Health email account )

QueenslandHealth Worker

We are writing to thank you for your patience and hard work over the past month as Queensland Health has struggled with the implementation of a new payroll system.

Let us be clear, the problems associated with the new payroll system are completely unacceptable. QH staff are entitled to their pay and entitled to receive it on pay day.

For those staff who have not received their pay or have received less than their full pay, we know that this has been a stressful time for you and your family. We also understand that for all other staff, the unpredictability of the system has caused unnecessary uncertainty.

We sincerely apologise to each and every one of you for the unnecessary stress, pain and uncertainty these problems have caused you.


We also want to acknowledge the hard work being done by the many staff working in payroll, I.T and associated areas to overcome the system problems. Many of these staff are working additional hours under very trying circumstances to remedy these problems as soon as possible, and we thank them for their efforts.

The efforts of all Queensland Health staff to maintain services and treat Queenslanders in need of medical care throughout this difficult time are a great credit to your commitment and professionalism.

We want to assure you that we take this issue, and our responsibility for fixing it, very seriously. We have been working to ensure that additional resources and capacity are dedicated to fixing the problems of the payroll system. That’s why we commissioned an external review by KPMG to identify and solve the issues with the new payroll system.

The role you play in the well being of our community is indispensable. Your work and your commitment are valued by the Government and by Queenslanders. You deserve better than the current payroll system is delivering and we are determined to see that you get it.

Again, thank you for your patience.

Yours sincerely


ANNA BLIGH MP
PREMIER OF QUEENSLAND

PAUL LUCAS MP
Deputy Premier
Minister for Health

No chance in Ireland!

Narkius Maximus

Wow! Accountability, respect and apologies from a head of government. Not only is the weather better, the politicians are better too! Australia is getting more and more attractive.

mcdermla

The EWTD is necessary to protect the patient to prevent mistakes made by doctors whose judgement has been impaired by lack of sleep. As stated above most interns don't get paid for their extra hours and are too afraid to go to a higher authority to complain about it. At the end of the day if this is what you want to do for the rest of your life then you're lucky you don't have to clock up as many hours that were expected pre-EWTD. It's easy to say you'd love to work as many hours as poss as an intern when you've never had to work as an intern. I'm sure you can get an extension on your loan, and that it won't be the end of the world. You're about to become a doctor, so be excited!:cool:

chanste

mcdermla wrote: »

The EWTD is necessary to protect the patient to prevent mistakes made by doctors whose judgement has been impaired by lack of sleep. As stated above most interns don't get paid for their extra hours and are too afraid to go to a higher authority to complain about it. At the end of the day if this is what you want to do for the rest of your life then you're lucky you don't have to clock up as many hours that were expected pre-EWTD. It's easy to say you'd love to work as many hours as poss as an intern when you've never had to work as an intern. I'm sure you can get an extension on your loan, and that it won't be the end of the world. You're about to become a doctor, so be excited!:cool:

I think thats debatable. I'm new to medicine, not the working world, and In the past 5 years I've always worked extra for my main job (I was a teacher) in the evenings (setting exams, correcting work, preparing notes), or maintained some kind of course (evening degree in maths, teaching computer skills) or personal interest (piano lessons, and kickboxing). My point is, is that to me and many people I know 48 hours isn't THAT big a chunk of the week that a person is exhausted or unusable for the rest of it. Maybe I've just got no life, but I am a very driven person to learn more, and I feel like my time is wasted when I sit in watching TV for the evening which so many people seem to aim for as a sort of standard.

Anyway, you make a good point which is applicable to some people, and some day may be applicable to me too (I know I can't work long hours forever), but for now I feel I wouldn't know what to do with my time if I had that much time off. I'd like to opt out of EWTD if possible. I'm certainly putting in way more time than the 48 hours now.

I agree that becomming a Doctor is worth becomming excited about, and I am really looking forward to it.

mcdermla

chanste wrote: »

I think thats debatable. I'm new to medicine, not the working world, and In the past 5 years I've always worked extra for my main job (I was a teacher) in the evenings (setting exams, correcting work, preparing notes), or maintained some kind of course (evening degree in maths, teaching computer skills) or personal interest (piano lessons, and kickboxing). My point is, is that to me and many people I know 48 hours isn't THAT big a chunk of the week that a person is exhausted or unusable for the rest of it. Maybe I've just got no life, but I am a very driven person to learn more, and I feel like my time is wasted when I sit in watching TV for the evening which so many people seem to aim for as a sort of standard.

Anyway, you make a good point which is applicable to some people, and some day may be applicable to me too (I know I can't work long hours forever), but for now I feel I wouldn't know what to do with my time if I had that much time off. I'd like to opt out of EWTD if possible. I'm certainly putting in way more time than the 48 hours now.

I agree that becomming a Doctor is worth becomming excited about, and I am really looking forward to it.

So hang on you qualified as a teacher, did extra classes and then decided to go into medicine?? That is amazing, honestly, I take my hat off to you. I'm a student nurse and would love to get into medicine somehow, I have friends that are interns and I know my hospital inside out and what everyone does, a lot of the interns complain that they wanna go do nothing so you should be just fine! You'll probably be the one to watch actually, I've heard stories of doctors picking favourites based on work ethic.
If you chose to do your internship in the UK you could avoid the EWTD and get your debt paid off much quicker. Are you a mature student?

chanste

mcdermla wrote: »

...I'm a student nurse and would love to get into medicine somehow...
If you chose to do your internship in the UK you could avoid the EWTD and get your debt paid off much quicker. Are you a mature student?

I'm 29. 1st year GEM in UL now. For the record it seems to me that anyone who has come into our course from nursing has a huge advantage, so if it was something you ever wanted, the nursing would definitely help a lot.

I initially studied physics, and kind of went into teaching because there wasn't much else to do in it in Ireland. I tried living in the UK for a year and maybe its just where I was but I kinda felt like an outsider and wouldn't go back unless there was a great option over there for me.

mcdermla

How are you finding GEM?? Are there a lot of nurses in your class? Thank you for saying it would be an advantage, most people laugh in my face when I tell them I want to do medicine, even though I know a hell of a lot more about medicine than a lot of people trying for GEM!

chanste

mcdermla wrote: »

How are you finding GEM?? Are there a lot of nurses in your class? Thank you for saying it would be an advantage, most people laugh in my face when I tell them I want to do medicine, even though I know a hell of a lot more about medicine than a lot of people trying for GEM!

I'm finding GEM to be a perverse mixture of fantastically interesting, while horribly hard (at times). I wrote a post at the start of the year telling someone a lot about what I thought about it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62949066#post62949066

With the advantage of hindsight my advice to anyone who wants to study medicine would be to say as little about it as possible to anyone, but just get to it. Apply for tests that need to be done, get all the administration done as it comes up - you can back out at any stage, but even the day I sat the GAMSAT I was plodding along thinking that it wasn't actually going to happen. Being a mature student abandoning another career I'd spent a lot of time on, and preparing to subject my partner to 4 more years of poverty, I had a million and 1 reasons NOT to go for it! But I think for me it was something I really wanted so no amount of reasons was going to make me stop going for it. At the end of the day you will get offered a place or you won't. If you do, the naysayers will have to shut up, and if you don't either try again or leave it be.

I think there are about 10 nurses in our year (out of 91 students).

Breezer

Vorsprung wrote: »

Got this mail yesterday (my Queensland Health email account )

There is a god, and he rides a kangaroo while hunting crocodiles with boomerangs. Do you think they'll let me book flights for 2012 yet?

donaghs

chanste wrote: »

I'm thinking that when I graduate I will have to pay near €2000 per month off my med loan for the next 5 years (The thought of asking them to extend period of repayment is awful), and was wondering how other people manage.

What's a "med loan"? and how's it differ from other students loans?

At least there appears to be jobs for medical grads, and with good starting salaries.

chanste

donaghs wrote: »

What's a "med loan"? and how's it differ from other students loans?

At least there appears to be jobs for medical grads, and with good starting salaries.

For me the difference is magnitude. I never needed a loan for my first degree because I worked through it. Not really feasible with this course. The fees for Irish/EU students are about 13kEUR per year too, so when you qualify you have several years of having not worked, but considerable expenses in the form of fees and books.

p_holmz

donaghs wrote: »

What's a "med loan"? and how's it differ from other students loans?

At least there appears to be jobs for medical grads, and with good starting salaries.

Good starting salarys that does not justify the effort and put into qualifying for the job or the actually daily task associated with the job (including saving human lives!).

It just does not make any economic sense to study Med as opposed to say Accountancy, Actuary or indeed law... So I would not attempt to justify it on such grounds (starting salary, prestige of otherwise).

The best way to look at it (from an outsider's point of view) is that at least you are doing what you are passionate about and providing selfless service.

Vorsprung

Breezer wrote: »

There is a god, and he rides a kangaroo while hunting crocodiles with boomerangs. Do you think they'll let me book flights for 2012 yet?

God may be riding a kangaroo and drinking XXXX Gold now, but in the next 1-2 years there's going to be huge numbers of medical students graduating in Oz, to the point that there won't be many places in the cities for Johnny Foreigner to come In - there may be more jobs in the smaller cities and towns. There's going to be a lot of unemployed doctors around in Ireland in about 5-7 years.