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How would you solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

  • 12-04-2010 06:58PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24


    I've seen a few threads here that have to do, with one way or another, with Israel and the Palestinians. A lot of criticism has been written. Lots of accusations. A lot of words on what is done wrong.
    My question is, what do you think is the permenant long term solution to this conflict? What would you do to end this conflict once and for all?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    TheDreamer wrote: »
    I've seen a few threads here that have to do, with one way or another, with Israel and the Palestinians. A lot of criticism has been written. Lots of accusations. A lot of words on what is done wrong.
    My question is, what do you think is the permenant long term solution to this conflict? What would you do to end this conflict once and for all?

    I don't think it is solvable, when you consider the religious context. If a solution must be proposed, I would suggest removing one of the opposing groups.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Far too many people are willing to point fingers and overlook the fundamental problems:

    1) A group of people (Fanatical Orthodox Jewish settlers) insisting on maintaing the delusion of a 'Greater Israel'

    2) A group of people (Palestinians) who teach their children of the glory of martyrdom and the necessity of killing Jews.

    3) A political party (Hamas) that doesn't recognise the Israeli State. Not conducive to peace.

    4) Hundreds of thousands of hot heads on both sides who'll never surrender.

    Peace? its impossible. Co-existance, maybe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Denerick wrote: »
    Far too many people are willing to point fingers and overlook the fundamental problems:

    1) A group of people (Fanatical Orthodox Jewish settlers) insisting on maintaing the delusion of a 'Greater Israel'

    2) A group of people (Palestinians) who teach their children of the glory of martyrdom and the necessity of killing Jews.

    3) A political party (Hamas) that doesn't recognise the Israeli State. Not conducive to peace.

    4) Hundreds of thousands of hot heads on both sides who'll never surrender.

    Peace? its impossible. Co-existance, maybe.

    All you require are one and two, to be honest. It's all about Jerusalem. The city where Mohammed (conveniently) ascended into heaven. Where the Temple Mount is. Which is also the spot the Jews hold is high reverence. Not to mention the Christian interest there. You couldn't write the script.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    AH Answer: Nothing that a couple of nukes couldnt solve

    Politics Answer: Recognition of Palestine and EU membership for both, we were (are) quite deeply divided here in Ireland too, a bit of prosperity via a common market went a long way to solving our problems


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Its crying out for A Libertarian stateless solution. There will not be peace as long as there is a state of Israel. The Zionists would be happy as they would still have access to the land of Israel and the Palestinians would not have a "state" to attack. Peace and commerce is necessary for long term prosperity.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    A mix of the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative and the 2003 Geneva Accord.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Its crying out for A Libertarian stateless solution. There will not be peace as long as there is a state of Israel. The Zionists would be happy as they would still have access to the land of Israel and the Palestinians would not have a "state" to attack. Peace and commerce is necessary for long term prosperity.

    I think if the state disappeared, it would not be long before democratic politics would simply divide the country again. In this scenario, all the wealth and the best public services would be in Jewish areas. Is a Civil War really any better than the present situation?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Make Jerusalem a free city like Dazing/Gdansk was.
    Create an Israeli and a Palestinian state.

    Probably a similar solution will be required in South Africa.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    AH Answer: Nothing that a couple of nukes couldnt solve

    Politics Answer: Recognition of Palestine and EU membership for both, we were (are) quite deeply divided here in Ireland too, a bit of prosperity via a common market went a long way to solving our problems

    I pre-empted the comparison with our fair isle, but it is quite wide of the mark, despite it's blunt similarities. The Protestants versus Catholics flavour of that conflict is not even remotely similar because both sides are not fighting to bring forth the return (or arrival) of their messiah as described in their holy books, where a certain deity has personally selected these lands as his chosen.

    This isn't about some political dispute with a few hair-brained clergy, drug dealers, knee cappers, thrown in.

    This is a war that God has commanded them to fight. It is written in scripture. God is silent on the Falls Road, for some reason.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Denerick wrote: »
    I think if the state disappeared, it would not be long before democratic politics would simply divide the country again. In this scenario, all the wealth and the best public services would be in Jewish areas. Is a Civil War really any better than the present situation?

    democracies need taxation to fund armies and all the other good stuff. One of the prime laws of the area would have to be taxation is illegal and not enforcable in the courts.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    I pre-empted the comparison with our fair isle, but it is quite wide of the mark, despite it's blunt similarities. The Protestants versus Catholics flavour of that conflict is not even remotely similar because both sides are not fighting to bring forth the return (or arrival) of their messiah as described in their holy books, where a certain deity has personally selected these lands as his chosen.

    This isn't about some political dispute with a few hair-brained clergy, drug dealers, knee cappers, thrown in.

    This is a war that God has commanded them to fight. It is written in scripture. God is silent on the Falls Road, for some reason.

    I understand, the comparison might not be to close since we dont have people who believe its their "god given right" to be walking around with machine guns and shoot the locals (i dont want to get any more into that since it would derail the thread)

    I just think that any solution would be born out of prosperity and trade, and maybe time... basically what im trying to say if the people become more secular by caring more about consumerism or about protecting their investment and property and making a future for children, they (overall) would tend to be less bloodthristy

    The reason I brought up the EU is that here we finally have a collection of states and people living in peace now, despite thousands of years of violent murder and war

    something along same lines might work there too

    or maybe not in that case give the nukes a shot


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    Jerusalem becomes a UN-backed protectorate statelet. Both Israel and the Palastinians can seat their governments there, but neither can claim sovereignty over the city. Introduce a workable two-state solution for the rest of the israeli/palastinian land.

    Bitchslap the minorities on both sides when they don't play the game. Legitimate bitchslapping will finally be possible when the extremists on both sides are isolated and can be smothered out by the majority of people looking to live in peace, and with this will disappear the vast majority of outside funding and support to keep them going.

    It would probably take a generation to properly cement, but it would be worth it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    AH Answer: Nothing that a couple of nukes couldnt solve

    Politics Answer: Recognition of Palestine and EU membership for both, we were (are) quite deeply divided here in Ireland too, a bit of prosperity via a common market went a long way to solving our problems

    Always my thought. However 2 problems there. You will not get palestine in the EU until turkey are in and Isreal dont reconise the UN so they are hardly likely to reconise the EU.

    otherwise I reckon a communist Isreali govt will frighten the hell out of america and the palastinians will get it all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    I understand, the comparison might not be to close since we dont have people who believe its their "god given right" to be walking around with machine guns and shoot the locals (i dont want to get any more into that since it would derail the thread)

    I just think that any solution would be born out of prosperity and trade, and maybe time... basically what im trying to say if the people become more secular by caring more about consumerism or about protecting their investment and property and making a future for children, they (overall) would tend to be less bloodthristy

    The reason I brought up the EU is that here we finally have a collection of states and people living in peace now, despite thousands of years of violent murder and war

    something along same lines might work there too

    or maybe not in that case give the nukes a shot

    The EU took the most war-torn region in world history and turned it into a land where internal war is unthinkable, yeah, so I see your point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    The EU took the most war-torn region in world history and turned it into a land where internal war is unthinkable, yeah, so I see your point.

    Im not sure if you are being sarcastic

    but yes,
    whole of Europe was one large warn torn region with quite a bit of hate for each other spliced with all sorts of war/genocide/you name it,

    all during the few thousand years in which that part of middle east was rather "quiet"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Im not sure if you are being sarcastic

    but yes,
    whole of Europe was one large warn torn region with quite a bit of hate for each other spliced with all sorts of war/genocide/you name it,

    all during the few thousand years in which that part of middle east was rather "quiet"

    Nope, no sarcasm. New batteries for the detector, perhaps?

    Now, was that last sentence sarcastic? Hmm, I think I know what you mean. But from around 1793 onwards, Europeans really raised the stakes on war.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    2 state solution along the lines of the Arab Peace plan or the Geneva Initative, or a bit of both.

    Having said the above, I think it likely that Israels colonies make a 2 state solution impossible, or soon will. So if a 2 state solution is impossible, then a single Bi-National state, with equal rights for everyone regardless of race, religion etc.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Until some level of trust is established between the two sides, it's going to be very difficult: You'd have to get both sides to agree to things they've no particular interest in.

    Take the Gaza blockade, for example. The Israelis and Egyptians need to figure out a way of inspecting goods far more quickly to allow nearly uninhibited movement of goods into Gaza. On the other hand, out of deference to Israel's security desires, the walls should stay up with crossing restricted only to certain points. Neither is going to be overly popular.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 TheDreamer


    I don't think a one state solution is considered an option any one of the sides. The two state solution has been considered, negotiated, and a process towards that was started (by Rabin). This was when the Palestinians, under Arafat, were given an autonomy, and the land was devided into areas A, B and C (this was the first stage in the process). So if the two state solution has been discussed and worked on, why do you think it wasn't executed?
    If a two state solution was worked out, what do you think should be decided regarding the Jewish settlers? And what do you think (if anything) should be decided regarding the Israeli Arabs?
    Also, do you think a one sided withdrawal by Israel from all pre 1967 areas could be a solution to the conflict?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    TheDreamer wrote: »
    I don't think a one state solution is considered an option any one of the sides.

    Well, if the land can't be divided, than they will need to share. Basically a 2 state solution needs a viable Palestinian state, which seems more and more unlikely with each day imho. It isn't so much that either side wants it, but that if they keep carrying on as they have been, there actions will make a 1 state solution the only option. Also, a defacto single state already exists, seeing as Israel rules all the land involved.
    TheDreamer wrote: »
    The two state solution has been considered, negotiated, and a process towards that was started (by Rabin). This was when the Palestinians, under Arafat, were given an autonomy, and the land was devided into areas A, B and C (this was the first stage in the process). So if the two state solution has been discussed and worked on, why do you think it wasn't executed?

    The death of Rabin, one sided support for Israel from the so called honest broker the US, and a failure in Palestinian leadership.
    TheDreamer wrote: »
    If a two state solution was worked out, what do you think should be decided regarding the Jewish settlers?

    Well, they can either be removed, and return to there own country, or they can stay and live under Palestinian law, and Israel pay compensation for the land they took. Abbas even said that the settlers could stay, as long as they follow Palestinian law, so its not outside the realm of possibility.
    TheDreamer wrote: »
    And what do you think (if anything) should be decided regarding the Israeli Arabs?

    Israel needs to treat them as equal citizens, and if they want to be a modern democracy, they need to be a state of all its citizens, and not a "Jewish" state, which is no different than the "Arab" states or the "Islamic" Republics.
    TheDreamer wrote: »
    Also, do you think a one sided withdrawal by Israel from all pre 1967 areas could be a solution to the conflict?

    Yeah, it could work.

    **EDIT**
    Btw, what would your solution be?
    **END EDIT**


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 TheDreamer


    wes wrote: »

    Israel needs to treat them as equal citizens, and if they want to be a modern democracy, they need to be a state of all its citizens, and not a "Jewish" state, which is no different than the "Arab" states or the "Islamic" Republics.

    Just to be clear - Israeli Arabs are equal citizen of Israel and get all the rights the Jews and other groups get.
    Yeah, it could work.

    **EDIT**
    Btw, what would your solution be?
    **END EDIT**

    Then why do you think it didn't work in Gaza after the one sided Israeli withdrawal? (This is off topic, but the one sided withdrawal failed in bringing peace to the Lebanese border also).

    What is the solution in my opinion? I don't know, to be honest. I think this situation is too complicated and I don't think a solution is possible unless major changes in concepts and attitudes are made.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Stroke Politics


    Two things - a slight modification in the staple diet of the two communities involved and a shed-load of money.

    Edward de Bono is a supporter of more zinc in people's diet, as it makes one less irritable and belligerent. Yeast is a good source of zinc which is missing from unleavened bread such as pittas...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/de-bonos-marmite-plan-for-peace-in-middle-yeast-1133338.html

    Second thing is money: give the Palestinians about €6B over 8 years to rebuild the critical infrastructure of their part of this area, educate their people and create work for them. Reduce the advance by €5m for each missile fired into Israeli territory....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    TheDreamer wrote: »
    Just to be clear - Israeli Arabs are equal citizen of Israel and get all the rights the Jews and other groups get.

    Except that is simply untrue. They are very much discriminated against.

    You can read more from the US state department, and I chose them specifically, as they are Israels best buddy, and even they say they are discrimianted against, not to mention many Human Rights organizations, including Israeli ones:
    2009 Human Rights Report: Israel and the occupied territories

    --SNIP--
    The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens, although there were problems in some areas. There were several high-profile cases involving corruption by political leaders. Institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against Arab citizens, Palestinian Arabs, non-Orthodox Jews, and other religious groups continued, as did societal discrimination against persons with disabilities. Women suffered societal discrimination and domestic violence. The government maintained unequal educational systems for Arab and Jewish students. While trafficking in persons for the purpose of prostitution greatly decreased in recent years, trafficking for the purpose of labor remained a problem, as did abuse of foreign workers.
    --SNIP--

    --SNIP--
    During the year the Israel Land Fund NGO continued its program to purchase Arab land throughout Israel and market it to Jewish buyers, including in the diaspora; the organization claimed that all the land belonged to Jewish people and described as a "danger" the purchase of Jewish-owned lands by non-Jews.

    Throughout 2008 and during the climax of the national election campaign in February, media and political incitement against the Israeli Arab community continued from members of the Knesset and high-profile party leaders, including Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, whose election campaign appeared to polarize relations between Arabs and Jews. Lieberman called one Israeli Arab member of Knesset a terrorist.
    --SNIP--

    If you look at Human Rights groups, even the Israeli ones, you will see them paint a far worse picture than the US State department. Basically, Israeli Arabs do not have equal rights, and never will as long as Zionists insist on a "Jewish" state, and are against a state of all its citizens.

    Oh and here is another example of discrimination:
    'Racist' marriage law upheld by Israel
    TheDreamer wrote: »
    Then why do you think it didn't work in Gaza after the one sided Israeli withdrawal? (This is off topic, but the one sided withdrawal failed in bringing peace to the Lebanese border also).

    Oh, its very simple. They decided to grab more land in the West Bank instead, and they didn't really leave Gaza either, as Israel controls the air and the sea, and as such they are still occupying Gaza under International law, so they didn't really leave.

    As for Lebanon, Israel still occupies the Sheba farms.
    TheDreamer wrote: »
    What is the solution in my opinion? I don't know, to be honest. I think this situation is too complicated and I don't think a solution is possible unless major changes in concepts and attitudes are made.

    Fair enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You have an Unstoppable Force/Immovable Object Scenario. Frankly, I don't think Modern politics Or modern warfare help this situation at all. You wanna get pragmatic: Centuries ago these 2 sides would have battled it out already and one of them would have been erased from history. Its human nature that has been disrupted by Global Politics and Mutually Assured Destruction.


  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TheDreamer wrote: »
    I've seen a few threads here that have to do, with one way or another, with Israel and the Palestinians. A lot of criticism has been written. Lots of accusations. A lot of words on what is done wrong.
    My question is, what do you think is the permenant long term solution to this conflict? What would you do to end this conflict once and for all?

    The simple fact is that there will be never peace in that region as long as Israel exists. Regardless of the nations in the region, the different Arab peoples will never accept Israel being there. There's been too much blood spilled, and too much religious dogma thrown about. The UN would not be trusted, since its seen to be a paper bag of western initiatives. The two state deal would still have the problem of Israel existing and being a target for Arab aggression even if they managed to keep their own military ambitions in check, which i doubt possible.

    There is no answer. As Overheal said it probably would have been solved decades ago if civilisation hadn't advanced to this level.

    Its worth noting that even if Israel was to disappear there's nothing to suggest that you wouldn't continue to have violence in the region. Palestine was occupied by other Arab nations. There's no huge amount of trust between the different countries, and with many different religious background/agenda's its likely that they would fight amongst themselves anyway.

    There is no realistic answer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭Ping Chow Chi


    If you gave all the people in the occupied territories a vote in elections in Israel, until such a time that they had their own state. I think this might speed things up a tad.

    Though I think it may already be too late for a two state solution, Israel has probably took too much land already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The simple fact is that there will be never peace in that region as long as Israel exists. Regardless of the nations in the region, the different Arab peoples will never accept Israel being there.

    ...except for the fact they've agreed to recognise Israel, under certain conditions....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    This post has been deleted.

    Well curiously enough Hamas also share the vision of a one State solution of rthis region incorporating all of Israel and Palestine but the question of equal rights is in doubt. However as the thread is about solutions, then I will try to be positive. A period in which Jerusalem or part of it is in or under UN control might be helpful.

    And i wonder if the Irish peace Process has any lessons or guidelines in this situation ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭SeanW


    For there to be peace in Israel and Palestine, IMHO BOTH sides need to take firm action, and in concert.
    1. The Israelis need to withdraw to the '67 borders, or negotiate with the Palestinian people for any extra territory outside of them.
    2. The Palestinians need to stop preaching hatred against Jews.
    3. Jerusalem should either be divided by the belligerants, shared by them, or administered by neither: either being an independent city or run by a neutral 3rd party, like Switzerland.
    While one side could lay down the framework (either Israel, by unilaterally withdrawing to its own terriotory, or the Palestinians, by offering to end the violence and recognise Israel's right to exist if the land grabs are reversed)

    But in real terms someone needs to get them both and knock some heads together, which is all I would try to do.

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