€5000 grant for new electric vehicles

pumpkinsoup

From today, the Irish government are providing a €5000 grant for new electric vehicles purchased here. Renault-Nissan are planning to sell 2000 EVs in Ireland in the next year. Their sales are therefore being subsidised to the tune of €10 million by the Irish taxpayer. The cars are also VRT exempt. Despite the potential to reduce CO2 emissions and reduce our reliance on oil, this policy seems a little misguided to me, given the current state of the Irish exchequer. Any views?
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/ELECTRIC+CARS+A+REALITY+FOR+IRELAND.htm

Tigger

pumpkinsoup wrote: »

From today, the Irish government are providing a €5000 grant for new electric vehicles purchased here. Renault-Nissan are planning to sell 2000 EVs in Ireland in the next year. Their sales are therefore being subsidised to the tune of €10 million by the Irish taxpayer. The cars are also VRT exempt. Despite the potential to reduce CO2 emissions and reduce our reliance on oil, this policy seems a little misguided to me, given the current state of the Irish exchequer. Any views?
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/ELECTRIC+CARS+A+REALITY+FOR+IRELAND.htm

wher does the leccy to run them come from?

Cionád

Tigger wrote: »

wher does the leccy to run them come from?

Mostly coal powered plants, but they are far more efficient than individual combustion engines. The proportion of renewable energy sources is increasing though.

€10 million is peanuts compared to what the government is borrowing on a daily basis, at least it is being invested in something half-promising.

Joey the lips

Dont care at the moment about the cost. We would be helping the govt reach their co2 targets by buying these.

What I am concerned about more is the recharging. For example fast charge v's slow charge. Will companies be offered incentives to allow them charging points in the office.

also the price per killowatts v's the amount of killowatts to charge. In otherwords.... What will a days charge cost the consumer.

How far out of cities will charging points be offered.... Are we possibly looking at situations that when cars pull into parking spaces there will be shores in the ground that a charging lead can be pulled out offf....

In others the whole infrastructure... Imagine you woke up in ireland in 1921 in the morning. What would your thoughts be..

Where will I buy petrol

Where will I get the car serviced

How will I service it.

What of breakdown.

What will the cost of charging be,

Tigger

Joey the lips wrote: »

Dont care at the moment about the cost. We would be helping the govt reach their co2 targets by buying these.

What I am concerned about more is the recharging. For example fast charge v's slow charge. Will companies be offered incentives to allow them charging points in the office.

also the price per killowatts v's the amount of killowatts to charge. In otherwords.... What will a days charge cost the consumer.

How far out of cities will charging points be offered.... Are we possibly looking at situations that when cars pull into parking spaces there will be shores in the ground that a charging lead can be pulled out offf....

In others the whole infrastructure... Imagine you woke up in ireland in 1921 in the morning. What would your thoughts be..

Where will I buy petrol

Where will I get the car serviced

How will I service it.

What of breakdown.

What will the cost of charging be,

how did i get to 1921

drunkmonkey

Is there any cars you can buy now, what are the choices?

pumpkinsoup

Tigger wrote: »

how did i get to 1921

In a DeLorean of course

Joey the lips

Tigger wrote: »

how did i get to 1921

Nothing ment towards you... Just trying to get you to imagine no petrol infrastructure

pumpkinsoup wrote: »

In a DeLorean of course

Ah yes.... with mr fusion..... Now that would save us a fortune on bin charges and get us to work... It would make for a poor excuse though

Sorry bosss i am late i had no food in my fridge.

R.O.R

Give me one of these:


And one of these:



And I'd be a happy man, with a lot more money in my pocket on a weekly basis (would need above 2 for free though).

bladespin

Lol, it's almost laughable when you consider the purchase prices of the cars and the limits that are placed on the owners.

It's typical of the way we approach these things, the cart is (as usual) put before the horse.

They go off and create a grant for the cars wile they give little or nothing towards using renewable source, no grant micro generators and very little incentives etc.

Gophur

The CO2 emissions lark is one big fraud. Any change to CO2 emissions, in Ireland, will have practically zero impact on Global emissions, which is the ultimate aim of the so-called CO2 emission reduction campaign.

Eamonn Ryan and John Gormley would have more effect if they lobbied against imports of goods from China, India, Canada the USA and South America, imports which either come from significant polluters, or via ridiculous transport of goods from the other side of the world, goods which could be better sourced locally, in Europe.

Boeing 737, for example, will emit 6 tonnes of CO2, per hour, on a typical short-haul flight. That's the same as a Toyota Avensis 1.6litre, doing 30,000km, yet the Avensis fuel is taxed, including a "Carbon tax", and jet fuel is tax free.


All these so-called initiatives are for nothing other than making a Green Party member feel good.

Electric Cars? The charging points are ordinary three-pin plugs. How secure are they? How safe are they?

Tesla, or nothing!

McSpud

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Is there any cars you can buy now, what are the choices?

Nissan will supply its all-electric, five-seater LEAF hatchback to Ireland in early 2011 while Renault will launch its light commercial electric vehicle, Kangoo Z.E., later in the year. By the end of 2011, Renault will also supply 100 pre-production Fluence Z.E.s for a pilot project in Ireland. Fluence Z.E., an electric sedan for both private and professional use, will go on sale in Ireland in 2012.

Not sure when these available but I suppose no use selling until charge points are available.


Nissan Leaf. Yuck

seamus

bladespin wrote: »

Lol, it's almost laughable when you consider the purchase prices of the cars and the limits that are placed on the owners.

It's typical of the way we approach these things, the cart is (as usual) put before the horse.

They go off and create a grant for the cars wile they give little or nothing towards using renewable source, no grant micro generators and very little incentives etc.

Chicken and egg really though. If you sell enough vehicles, you create a bigger demand for things like micro-generators, which encourages people to fit them and so forth.
The cars themselves will also improve in line with demand as the manufacturers strive to compete.

As far as I can see, the main limiting factor at this stage is range. It's from that, that all other problems arise.

The LEAF for example, has a range of 160km. This would be fine for most people's day-to-day stuff. You use it and you plug it in when you get home. Bingo-bango.

However, we all occasionally have busy days and we all occasionally go on holidays in Ireland. For this, a 160km range is woefully inadequate. This wouldn't be a big deal if it could be easily charged in 5 minutes. After all, filling up with petrol takes five minutes. At best, a fast charge will fully charge you in 20 minutes. A trip from Dublin to Killarney, for example, will require at least 2 stops of 20 minutes to charge the vehicle. Ordinary cars will do this trip (and back) without needing to be refuelled once.

However, again, it's all about demand. The next 10-15 years we'll see massive investment into technologies which seem to be a complete waste of time and money - charging stations, building regulations requiring external plugs for EVs and so forth - but without them there will be very little draw to EVs.

As Joey the lips points out, when ICE cars were first introduced, I imagine most people laughed at the madness of having to refuel every 100 miles and get it serviced. Shure wouldn't it just be easier to take the train?

Within 10 years, almost every petrol station in the country will have at least one charging point and after that you'll start to find restaurants (particularly those in rural towns) installing them too - come in for your dinner, have your car charged for free while you eat.

Let's also not forget that the rise of the electric vehicle will bring along massive improvements for other technolgies too. Imagine a mobile phone with a 4 month standby time or a laptop that you could bring onto a 20-hour flight, watch movies all the way and still have enough power for a return journey?

bladespin

seamus wrote: »

Chicken and egg really though. If you sell enough vehicles, you create a bigger demand for things like micro-generators, which encourages people to fit them and so forth.
The cars themselves will also improve in line with demand as the manufacturers strive to compete.

I doubt it TBH, the demand to reduce your ESB bill is already there but the encouragement isn't, a grant scheme for the generators would do a lot more to reduce our emissions and fulfill our commitments than selling the cars will.
Grant aiding a car that will suit only a very small percentage of drivers (at the moment) will do little for emissions reduction, grant aiding micro generation would vastly reduce our power production emissions and our reliance on factors beyond our control (oil price).
Get the microgeneration scheme (that's already been started though desperately underfunded) running and the vehicles will be a lot more appealing.

flynnlives

You have to "rent" the battery for 1,200 euro per year!

galwaytt

flynnlives wrote: »

You have to "rent" the battery for 1,200 euro per year!

I was wondering when someone would spot that !

And, the Leaf will cost - iirc - €44,000 ?!!:eek: :eek:

FFS.

Looks like my 26mpg 3.0 Porsche at €1291 p.a. tax will be cheaper to run for a good few years yet !

oh, and yeah, the CO2 thing is a complete red herring.

Did you hear the Mitsubishi MiEv road test on the radio last week ? 69kms range, and that was keeping to under 80ph on the M50..........complete and utter waste of time.

I did learn one thing, though, a new phrase, to brandish now, instead of 'mpg' we'll all be moaning....'range anxiety' (dict: fear of not enough volts to get there !! )

flynnlives

No doubt this "renting" will replace normal tax and increase year in year out

Darsad

you you want t be seriously deluded and well heeled to be among the first to buy one of these things with the lack of range and charging availability not to mention the time to charge. Although I do believe it should be mandatory for every moron sorry member of the greens to have one .

McSpud

How can something so horrible looking at the Leaf cost so much? :eek:

If the cost was right electric would appeal to 2 car households - use the electric car for the short urban journeys & keep the traditional car for long trips.

There are far too many unknowns to be worthwhile moving to this yet. That said I can see the government grant increasing if this fails to take off otherwise they will be left with thousands of charge points and no users.

itarumaa

Let me tell you what is the problem with these electric cars,

This car :



Is a electric converted car, made in Finland. Estimated driving distace is 150km, so not too bad.

Except, quess how much the batteries cost to this car,
1000e?
5000e?
10 000e?
nope.

12 000e only for the batteries,

Good luck electric car, you have a long way to go.

I think that even in 2020 we are still going to use petrol and diesel.

thirtythirty

Batterys need to move on a generation for electric cars to be a legitimate alternative. Until then I reckon they should look into putting Bloom Boxes into cars...

Lisnagry

Joey the lips wrote: »

Dont care at the moment about the cost. We would be helping the govt reach their co2 targets by buying these.

And how many of our wonderfull ministers will swap their gas guzzling state cars for EV's ??

bladespin

Lisnagry wrote: »

And how many of our wonderfull ministers will swap their gas guzzling state cars for EV's ??

Considering you'll have to pay to park the thing in the city while it recharges they're probably the only ones that could afford the fees - free parking for life et al.

pumpkinsoup

Joey the lips wrote: »

Dont care at the moment about the cost. We would be helping the govt reach their co2 targets by buying these.

My problem with this is with the economics. Comparing the cost of the grant with the cost of CO2 for a car that an electric vehicle replaces is eye-opening:

A typical city car (which is the only car an EV can realistically replace) travels 15,000km per year and emits 120g/km. That's 1.8 tonnes of CO2 a year. At a cost of €15 a tonne of CO2, you would have to drive for 185 years to avoid enough CO2 to cover the cost of the grant alone, - and that's assuming zero emissions from the production of electricity.

There are cheaper ways to avoid CO2 emissions.

galwaytt wrote: »

I was wondering when someone would spot that !

And, the Leaf will cost - iirc - €44,000 ?!!:eek: :eek:

FFS.

Yep. People who can afford these are not the people that need government assistance right now.

galwaytt

itarumaa wrote: »

Let me tell you what is the problem with these electric cars,.........12 000e only for the batteries,

here's a better one: at a previous Energy Show in the RDS, they were displaying both a Transit and a LGV, both electric.

The LGV cost €90,000 - of which, wait for it, wait for it....€45,000 was for the batteries.............!!

The Transit was somewhere in the €55k - 60k price range.

Oh, and who owned the Transit......? you do.

I mean, the ESB. ............

According to the company site, the Transit would start payback from year 4 onwards..............hello ? Who on a fleet would keep a 4yr+ old Transit ?

Absurdum

Regardless of the cost of the batteries, it's the source and manufacture of them that I'd be most worried about. I'll be sticking to petrol for the foreseeable future, thanks.

Owen

Someone, somewhere's gonna buy one, fit a tow hitch, and have a big plant generator hooked on with mains electricity going into it. Or a small trailer with an Aldi generator. Problem solved.

All joking aside, honda do a very quiet generator for powering musicians outdoors, would work a treat.

GM/Chevy have the Volt in the states, a proper solution for the current motoring situation. All electric drivetrain, but with a small petrol engine who's only task is to generate electricity to keep the batteries topped up when needed. Like a reverse Prius. MPGs are apparently in triple figures. I'd have one of those over a fully electric vehicle any day.

bandit197

So now we are cutting education grants but providing grants for electric cars which have a generation to go before they are viable. Pathetic

Guy:Incognito

seamus wrote: »

Chicken and egg really though. If you sell enough vehicles, you create a bigger demand for things like micro-generators, which encourages people to fit them and so forth.
The cars themselves will also improve in line with demand as the manufacturers strive to compete.

As far as I can see, the main limiting factor at this stage is range. It's from that, that all other problems arise.

The LEAF for example, has a range of 160km. This would be fine for most people's day-to-day stuff. You use it and you plug it in when you get home. Bingo-bango.

However, we all occasionally have busy days and we all occasionally go on holidays in Ireland. For this, a 160km range is woefully inadequate. This wouldn't be a big deal if it could be easily charged in 5 minutes. After all, filling up with petrol takes five minutes. At best, a fast charge will fully charge you in 20 minutes. A trip from Dublin to Killarney, for example, will require at least 2 stops of 20 minutes to charge the vehicle. Ordinary cars will do this trip (and back) without needing to be refuelled once.

However, again, it's all about demand. The next 10-15 years we'll see massive investment into technologies which seem to be a complete waste of time and money - charging stations, building regulations requiring external plugs for EVs and so forth - but without them there will be very little draw to EVs.

As Joey the lips points out, when ICE cars were first introduced, I imagine most people laughed at the madness of having to refuel every 100 miles and get it serviced. Shure wouldn't it just be easier to take the train?

Within 10 years, almost every petrol station in the country will have at least one charging point and after that you'll start to find restaurants (particularly those in rural towns) installing them too - come in for your dinner, have your car charged for free while you eat.

Let's also not forget that the rise of the electric vehicle will bring along massive improvements for other technolgies too. Imagine a mobile phone with a 4 month standby time or a laptop that you could bring onto a 20-hour flight, watch movies all the way and still have enough power for a return journey?

Someone from Renault Ireland or somesuch was on the radio a couple of weeks ago. What they want to do is a petrol station type set up, in current stations I assume , where you pull in and your battery is swapped by a machine from underneath. Apparently you'd be in and out in 3 mins. What your doing is renting the battery,

That's similar to filling with petrol and probablythe best solution.

unkel

itarumaa wrote: »

I think that even in 2020 we are still going to use petrol and diesel.

Price Waterhouse Coopers reckon by 2020 about 2-3% of cars are electric cars. There won't be any other technology by then, so 96-97% of cars will be internal combustion engines running on fossil fuel. Just like in the last 125 years.

A €5k subsidy (plus another €5k or so subsidy for not charging VRT) to foreign car makers is the act of a delusional government thinking they still have money to dole out. Wake up and smell the feckin coffee, Cowen! :mad:

Absurdum

unkel wrote: »

A €5k subsidy (plus another €5k or so subsidy for not charging VRT) to foreign car makers is the act of a delusional government thinking they still have money to dole out. Wake up and smell the feckin coffee, Cowen! :mad:

but it's green and saving the planet!!!!!!!!!!!!! omgomgomg

Heroditas

unkel wrote: »

A €5k subsidy (plus another €5k or so subsidy for not charging VRT) to foreign car makers is the act of a delusional government thinking they still have money to dole out. Wake up and smell the feckin coffee, Cowen! :mad:

Unfortunately in this instance, I don't think it's just Cowen who is at fault here.
I bet that if another party were in charge, they'd still introduce grants like this.
Too many people are blinded by the "green" agenda and will follow it regardless of the economic and social shortcomings.

unkel

Heroditas wrote: »

Too many people are blinded by the "green" agenda and will follow it regardless of the economic and social shortcomings.

I reckon you're spot on. How do these people get blinded though?

They seem to speek of global warming? After the coldest year we've had in 50 years?

Can you imagine the cues at filling stations to charge your car if we all started getting these not to mention the extra time added to your journey if you need to stop and charge. Also the AA and other roadside assist companies will all have to get mobile generators in the event of someone running out of juice and will places of work have to kit out carparks with plug and charge points, if so who pays for that ?

smellslikeshoes

Unless electric cars can compete against petrol cars in their own right having grants etc. is pointless.
Until it takes 5 minutes to charge your car, runs for 300 miles in real world conditions (not how long the manufacturers say it will) and the costs of buying and maintaining are similar to that of a petrol car, electric cars won't be taken up by more than a tiny minority.

We would be better off concentrating on ethanol and other biofuels which are working solutions today.

Andrew33

Gophur wrote: »

Boeing 737, for example, will emit 6 tonnes of CO2, per hour, on a typical short-haul flight. That's the same as a Toyota Avensis 1.6litre, doing 30,000km, yet the Avensis fuel is taxed, including a "Carbon tax", and jet fuel is tax free.

The Boeing carries 150-180 people though! which means it produces roughly 40 times LESS CO2 than a fully loaded car per passenger mile. Its extremely easy to bash the aviation Industry because the loonie Greens (the world over) want us all living in huts, eating whatever we can grow in our own gardens.
I do agree though that airfreighting fruit halfway around the world is just WRONG!

"there's statistics, damned statistics and lies"

Heroditas

unkel wrote: »

I reckon you're spot on. How do these people get blinded though?

They seem to speek of global warming? After the coldest year we've had in 50 years?

Ah that's a different argument though.

You'll always get the hand-wringers who will try and make people feel bad because they have a decent car and will accuse them of destroying the planet.

Feckin' Sandymount residents!

robtri

unkel wrote: »

A €5k subsidy (plus another €5k or so subsidy for not charging VRT) to foreign car makers is the act of a delusional government thinking they still have money to dole out. Wake up and smell the feckin coffee, Cowen! :mad:

it might be the cheaper option..... if we do not make reductions in our green house gas emmissions, we will have a chit load of money to pay under the kyoto protocols...... i thnk estimates are around 7billion euro.......

so maybe just maybe, the cost here will be outweighed by the savings in fines we will have to pay otherwise........

spacetweek

unkel wrote: »

Price Waterhouse Coopers reckon by 2020 about 2-3% of cars are electric cars. There won't be any other technology by then, so 96-97% of cars will be internal combustion engines running on fossil fuel. Just like in the last 125 years.

A €5k subsidy (plus another €5k or so subsidy for not charging VRT) to foreign car makers is the act of a delusional government thinking they still have money to dole out. Wake up and smell the feckin coffee, Cowen! :mad:

What do PWC know about engineering? I heard 10% from a separate source, but I think it's a big underestimate.

Probably a further 20% will be hybrids (you forgot about those I see).

In my opinion the gov needs to stop pouring money into black holes like the health care system (150% increase in budget in the last decade with no decrease in waiting times) and should be spending more on pushing new technology.

PeakOutput

seamus wrote: »

At best, a fast charge will fully charge you in 20 minutes.

were did you read that? the cars in 'who killed the electriccar' had a range of 80 miles and when they showed them pulling into the charge stations it appeared to only take 5 or so mins

also a survey done in california showed that the average distance travelled by people in one day was 19km i imagine thats not that much difference to people living in our major cities and outskirts

i think its generally a good idea has some flaws but a step in the right direction i think

PeakOutput

spacetweek wrote: »

What do PWC know about engineering?

exactly

there dosnt need to be another technology electricity is the answer its jsut the batteries that need to improve and they are improving every day and investment in renewable energy = problem solved

teednab-el

these electric cars have a decade or two to go before they will take off. There are just too many black holes in this early stage of development.

What I want to know is

1. Will they start in cold weather with sub zero temperatures? and

2. If you hit pools of water on the road, will the car operate with damp electrics?

Guy:Incognito

teednab-el wrote: »

these electric cars have a decade or two to go before they will take off.

Flying cars in 10 years you say?:)

teednab-el

anything is possible

emick

A 5k grant and no VRT. This sounds like a good idea. The range of these cars will increase as technology improves. Petrol is going to keep on going up so this should in the long run save people a lot of cash in their weekly transport costs. There are lots of grants out there for energy saving house improvements so I don't see why this should be considered any different.

CoalBucket

Ok I left this idea settle for a day and then I heard The Minister for interfering in Garda investigations, Eamonn Ryan on Primetime tonight.

Save the planet ? What planet is he on ?

The cars can only go a distance of 150 kms and then require a charge which takes 30 minutes.

There are no petrol stations on the dual carriageways / Motorways , where are they gonna put the charge points. He's talking about putting them in Hotels, If you are going on any long trip you are gonna have to check into a hotel !!

I'm all for saving the planet but I'm against idiotic ideas.

Minister Ryan suggests that we should be the world leaders in Electric Car Technology.

We do not produce cars in this country.

Whats next from the greens ???

PeakOutput

the idea worked great in california no reason it wont here

people just dont understand that they are not for people who regularly take very long trips they are city commuting cars which is what 90% of people use their cars for anyway

Gurgle

Anyone got a link to the actual Ts&Cs on this?
Specifically - can you buy yourself & import from abroad (doubtful), will it cover all electric vehicles regardless of cost (electric bicycle for €1k and €5k cash-back anyone?), is there any limit on miles-per-kwr (electric Hum-vee anyone?), where and why does the 'rent a battery' part come in?

I'm wondering how (not if) they'll turn it into a cash-for-the-boyz scam.

There are a selection of promising electric cars in production and pre-production, from the 2-seater REVAi (€12k) to the Tesla Roadster (€80k) and a heap of standard-ish cars in between.

It sounds like this €5k grant will apply equally to either, which seems somewhat bizzarre as they certainly won't have the same ultimate environmental saving.

I've seen no word whether it will apply to electric motorcycles, which are imho a far better environmental option. I can see no justification allowing it for side-by-side 2 seat vehicles but not for front-and-back, but of course they've never needed justification (or statistics) for any of their little schemes.

- edit -
Oh yeah, does it only apply to battery-carrying vehicles or to all electrically charged? e.g. compressed air cars are charged with an electric compressor but have none of the disadvantages of battery weight, range and charge-cycle lifetime.

af_thefragile

The other day I went on a road trip with a couple of mates and drove for over 270 miles on one tank of fuel (and I still have quarter of a tank of fuel left in it). And I didn't drive very economically either. I was mostly on the B roads driving around in 3rd gear at decent speeds.

I'll buy an EV when it can do this.

People say the EV can do 200miles on one charge. They don't say that it could also run out of juice after just 100miles or even less if you're driving it a bit more entertainingly!
You won't get 200miles out of an EV if you're gonna be doing 120kmph on the motorway in it. You're barely even get 100miles out of it while doing those speeds.

And what would happen if I decide to go on a road trip in it thinking hey it has a range of 200miles, I should be fine, then I put my foot down on some country roads (like I do in my car) and I find myself running out of juice after just 100miles in the middle of nowhere? I can't just pull into someone's house and ask for some electricity for 6 hours while the EV recharges so that I can get back home...

Its like when the Prius first came out and said it could do 70mpg while in reality it'ld barely do 50mpg.

pumpkinsoup

Gurgle wrote: »

Anyone got a link to the actual Ts&Cs on this?

Gurgle,
Some of your questions are answered in part here: http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/EV_support_programme_launched/ The scheme applies to cars only. It follows on from a "Memorandum of Understanding" with Nissan-Renault, (neither company being renowned for manufacturing motorcycles!). In the MoU Nissan-Renault commit to selling us cars. In return for their commitment we subsidise them!!

A grant of €2500 is available for plug-in hybrids.

How much are the grants?
Full battery electric cars will qualify for up to €5,000, and plug in hybrid for up to €2,500, depending on the vehicle cost.
What are the qualifying criteria for vehicles?
The support scheme will apply to vehicles which meet certain safety and performance criteria such as speed, endurance per charge, emissions and warranty. The specific criteria will be clearly defined in consultation with interested parties through 2010 ahead of the programme commencement.
Who is eligible for the support?
The subsidy will apply at the retail level, and will be paid directly to dealerships on the completion of a sale. Dealerships will be required to register with SEAI as authorised sales outlets.

Gurgle

The subsidy will apply at the retail level, and will be paid directly to dealerships on the completion of a sale

And there it is, oh well.